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It Doesn't Stop At WoW:
Baghool
Member CommonPosts: 118
Game dynamics can be traced well before World of WarCraft. But it seem's like a ton of "first's" are credited to this game. The fact is, while a ton of thing's were done well the first time in WoW, they had been done in previous games well before Sony got involved. What they did was integrate them well, buy a ton of server space (the biggest innovation) and a massive marketing deal on major networks. The net, and the TV was at one time saturated with nothing but the best WoW adds money could buy. The cinematic scenes at any point are poetry. I'll give WoW that, and the in-game leaves a little to be desired in apperance.
But for a lot of players it was their first MMO.
For other's it was just waaaay better than the billing, and constant server remodeling in EQ.
But I think there is a syndrome compelling a lot of people to be forgiving of the games problems over any other games they try, simply because of a loyalty to WoW experiences.
I think it is hugely overrated and was a big flop in the long run that spawned a industry of floppiness.
I'm going to try to get a game off the ground, and it will have these elements in direct spite of WoW and her clone army:
1) Realistic character and NPC graphic's that can run in the cinematic's with hardly any tweaking.
2) An economy that is all game based. A Grind and craft for virtual set value that can't be bought from real world bank accounts. But donations will earn lvl's, not gear.
3) I'm not going to hide, dodge, or hamper player desire in sexual terms. (read into it what you like)
4) It will have at the least 1k levels of advancement and no periodic caps.
5) All advanced gear will be obtained by quests alone.
6) All PC's will have minions.
7) Server's will run as uninterrupted as is humanly possible and when shutdowns happen they will be to improve existing features, not constantly adding new junk and flash on top of crap.
8) There will be tons and tons of low level and mid level items that actually look cool on a PC.
9) Elites will be known for their godlike power, not by their stat rank on the server.
10) There will be no ranking system. Instead, bards will sing about mighty players and recent mighty deeds if you walk in a tavern, and certain deeds will be sung in the halls of kings.
11) PvP will take place in designated zones on every server, and certain zones will be havens, but godlike elites can go anywhere, kill, and destroy anything.
12) All death's are perma.
13) If a player kills you who is 10 lvl's or higher, you get an auto respawn with no penalties.
14) Code will be mod friendly and modding will be encouraged.
15) There will be an RTS element like the Total War series embedded in the game.
If you think that sounds good message me and we can talk about making the next epic game/games by players, for players.
And feel free to argue about my WoW points, just don't be hostile, or disrespectful to me or anyone else.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Comments
I think the vast majority of WoW's initial success came from the reputation of their RTS games. So many people went out and bought WoW on week one not because they loved MMOs but because the latest Warcraft game was out. Also helped that the game was well made. I encountered far more bugs in the first month of ESO than in the first month of WoW.
I applaud your decision to use the term "minion" rather than "companion."Well, my game is an Evil dominant theme, but even the Church or the Mosque historically has their minions.
I agree on the RTS point, I should have added that as a cause for the sometimes blind loyalty, WoW fanatic's have.
And right, WoW, did a lot of thing's right, but where they scored low for me was in original class, and content. They still wouldn't allow certain classes to use items or weapons designed for another class. And if you could wear or carry it, you took a penalty, or couldn't unlock abilities. I was an observer as my brother played it, but I was never a player. I boycotted Sony from day one. But I saw the progression until they screwed up the grinder ethic at lvl 80. My brother got pissed and quit when ppl began to start the servers as a lvl 80 when he built his 4 characters from the ground up, and had to dungeon raid to get his purple stuff.
He said, "now these pantie wastes get to just buy it?
Hell's naw!"
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
And do what? work 666/24 after work? as a hobby?
Listen to my advice and this is for real I promise. If you are not already educated from University, start there and then get a job. After 5-10 years of work in the gaming industry when you have saved some Money and got you some Contacts, start talking about this again.
This is funny yet entertaining.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
FTFY
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
^Exactly.
WoWs success has aided not only Blizzard, but the genre as a whole, possibly the mmo industry itself.
Good luck on your endeavor OP, hundreds of companies have tried to unravel the WoW hold on millions of people.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
This, pretty much, WoW, for all its haters, is massively successful for a reason, failure to understand or accept those reasons probably means core game design is not something that should be approached until such time as a deeper understanding of the subject has been achieved, whether this can be achieved through further education in a scholastic environment, i don't know, although working in the industry itself should help, probably on several levels.
I have a feeling that someone more experienced in game design would take the OP's list, and probably redline at least half of it.
Between the posted scope of your game and your view of WOW, here's advice from someone who has worked in the industry for about 15 years now:
Whatever the case, enjoy your journey, and I look forward to seeing your ideas and game come to fruition.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Loktofeit already covered the main issue, so I'll just say "+1" in that regard.
additional thoughts:
1) Realistic character and NPC graphic's that can run in the cinematic's with hardly any tweaking.
Having assets that are unnecessarily high quality for gameplay all the time just so that you can use them in cutscenes is bad design.
It has an impact on gameplay performance, which is actually the more important aspect of the game.
This is an MMO, you may have 100s of players/NPCs on screen. In single players you can go crazy because you can control how much will be on screen at any time. In an MMO it's much much trickier.
Plus, if it's a typical MMO 3rd person setup, you are wasting a ton of performance without any benefit. (the cam will be too far to see all those details anyway)
2) An economy that is all game based. A Grind and craft for virtual set value that can't be bought from real world bank accounts. But donations will earn lvl's, not gear.
Keep in mind, people will still label it P2W (doesn't matter if it's gear or levels someone can buy)
4) It will have at the least 1k levels of advancement and no periodic caps.
If you have that many levels, they become kinda meaningless. (they will basically just be a generic displayed number that shows advancement.)
People won't be excited/happy when a ding! happens, it will just be a long monotous grind towards max level. Smart level pacing (just like other rewards) has some important psychological effects and helps keeping the game more fun.
5) All advanced gear will be obtained by quests alone.
Crafters won't be happy
8) There will be tons and tons of low level and mid level items that actually look cool on a PC.
Good. Just don't forget that assets/media/art is the expensive and slow part of the dev process. So this will take some effort.
12) All death's are perma.
This will seriously limit your audience. If you accept this, why not.
14) Code will be mod friendly and modding will be encouraged.
Easier said than done.
How would modding work? Modding generally implies more than just some MC/Landmark-ish building in the world, it implies players can change systems/code/scripts and assets too.
A shared MMO world plus modding usually doesn't go well together. Dangerous slippery slope. Players will abuse any power you give them.
15) There will be an RTS element like the Total War series embedded in the game.
Interesting. Just keep in mind, if it's your first MMO don't aim too high. An MMO is hard enough without very ambitious stuff added on top.
I suggest getting some good books (game design!) and making some non MMOs first, to see if gamedev is for you.
Having ideas for a project or even setting up a quick demo is very very different from actually pulling through and toughing out the inevitable grind all the way to a finished product.
The fun part is just a tiny part.
Never underestimate what a beast an MMO is.
I wish you the best of luck with your project!
Allow me to discredit every post before this one as shallow and mindless Sony Crony hatred of the subject matter. The unflattering and mildly hostile with superior than thou assumptive rhetoric spouted without thought, assuming I put little into the commentary before I typed because this is like my 3rd day on this minisqule site for me....
But to this post I'm going to reply in turn:
1) When I say graphically pleasing, it means better then the ugly cartoon styles of the Tony the Tiger WoW characters. No one said game functionality had to suffer for a cutscene, the simplicity would come from using actual game models and environment in the cinematic phase without having to blow code, user memory, or a lot of money on Sony era pomp. I invite you to sample a game like Age of Conan: Unchained running now at Funcom, to see where this is put into play with minimal impact on the programmer side. While the voiceover is missing in the Funcom added content, the original scenes done in this way are all using the same game models for PC and NPC without a need to blow money and time on anything but character acting.
It doesn't have to be Assassin's Creed, just better than WoW...
2) There will be a strict limit on lvl's a individual can buy, but you have to get donations to maintain a server and do upkeep. The option is in consideration of the advanced level system I envision, so that the hours it takes to gain mastery in a class can be diminished. But every account will have to choose carefully when to apply a donation per character, so that the balance paying and non-paying players can avoid being debatable, as no one will have an unfair advantage. (i.e.) equal funding for equal service all players can afford., at a flat and low rate.
3) I invite you to view the blog page and understand that the end justifies the means in my system, and the long monotonous grind will generate godhood or something approaching it at peak advancement. There will in actuality be a two phase system for mortal and immortal races, in the mortal realm a PC will actually be able to advance across 5 overlapped (cumlitave 1k lvl's to arrive at 5k with all the benifits and no restriction) classes to be able to compete with powerful immortal beings in terms game combat balance. A system rewarding groups of friends at lower levels (or just mortal status) by allowing them to defeat players who are taking the role of "world bosses", negating a need to constantly generate new bosses, as the game generates them via the player base, but this new notion can be missed if one glances through the details blog without full comprehension of the actual intent.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/437323/Demiurge-Maid-Masters-Need-a-team-and-investors.html
4) Mid range gear will be available. Devils will be the main crafters in the game, and PC's will have to journey into Hell to get the choicest items, but those items are the elite, nothing says you can't craft an ultra weapon, and saying or assuming that is putting a limit on the crafting I never mentioned. The overall goal of "Demiurge" will be to become a "Demiurge" or "Archdevil" in which case the one being sought out for the "Hell Weapon's" will be the PC crafter..the "Demiurge"....
5) With all the money saved on the cinematic's I think the time spent and the funds will be well worth it. Besides, for all the money programmers and digital painters get for typing and stylist work they need to actually work for it and go home to dip their poor fingers in allow and set the Sleepnumber bed to the right setting to work out the kink in their gut laden backs.
6) Oh, the audience is adult only, so "limit", its got erotica, "limit", and there will be a name filter to prevent stupid people from playing, "limit". As stated, this is a game for RPG players, not hobby jaunty halfway I work so I can't play but an hour, it's too hard to level, it's just not as good as WoW, players... I will make modest profits, but maybe not billions, but the world needs a lot more of that business ethic.
7) All mods will have to be done through the server, and source code will be restrictive, but the kinds of mods I envision are cosmetic character effects and skinning, structural changes to weapons, buildings, and residences in the game, but no, not allowing you to put 1,000,000,000 dmg on a single arrow.
8) The RTS will begin when a server opens. PC's will effect the spread of a faction. A world will never be fully conquered but the ebb can be effected, like in Champion's of Regnum, but if a faction quits the world can be declared conquered, but it will be left to the players on the server to request an eventual shutdown. I realize people get very attached to their characters and in such long term leveling I imaging this will be the case to the tenth degree.
But thank you for the obvious attempt to be a coach, and to try and steer me away from what you must have seen as failures waiting to transpire. The sentiment is thoughtful and welcome.
But I have done a ton of study, and research, and am a fan's fan in regards to programming. I respect the advice. I hope it is mutually returned in constructive and not combative terms.
But to those who just want to poke it with a stick and spit in my direction, you can go toot a horn...
(water off a ducks back)
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
This isn't sarcasm. Good-luck. It's a big job.
I don't always understand perspectives / decisions / motivations, but that's okay. It's not critical to a project for some random guy in Indiana to understand the project for it to come to fruition.
Give 'em hell, make your game. :-)
Because there is this little known thing called "Venture Capitalism" in which a larger corporation seeds small subsidiary companies with "Angel Investment" dollars, and the backs are easy to find if one follows the money trails over decades.
So, right you are they aren't Sony, they just own major shares...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
ty"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Sure, what does EQ have to do with WoW though?
EQ inspired WoW sure... so did UO, and Meridan 59, and Neverwinter, and so many other games.
I'm not sure why you're so 'anti corporate'
It's not like it's news that 989 studios was a subsidiary of Sony, nor is it uncommon.
Your entire post comes off as a anti large company rant.
I'm not totally against money making, but the 360% over the GDP group of corporate interests make me sick.
It's like if they don't mark 20 over last quarter they are failing, when they could fail at 0% for 20 years and still be equitable.
I would like to see more companies than just Activision, and a few other choice names representing the market, but the world we live in was manufactured in Europe and Japan, and sold by American and Canadian interests who now bleed the user base and have created the flood of the crap we call PTW-WoW clones. Korea, China, France, Japan...all are guilty of the corpocratic infusion that ruins quality player made for player games.
I am proud of Blizzard acquiring most of it's own stock, the equity has grown for a home based corporation, but are they going to do anything with the money other than play king 30-40 yearold playboy endeavor?
We little ineffectual peasants can only sit by and watch..
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I overlooked you, sorry... This was actually a civil and well meaning post."Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Yep, you shouldn't even think about people being combatative or not. Just pull the useful infos out of it and disregard the rest.
Just to clarify: My post wasn't even meant to be condescending or combatative at all, I am not implying I know it all better. I tried to dig down deeper on some of those points because they sounded like they could have a negative impact on your game. Im happy to see you (or anyone making games) succeed. The more good games the better.
Honestly, there is no bad feedback. There is just noise and feedback.
Filter out the noise (trolling, the inevitable stories about your mother, insults), adjust for bias (players are heavily biased) and what remains is useful feedback, no matter how it is worded.
In my experience the negative stuff is usually more useful than the positive. Just never take anything personally. (most devs would be in mental hospitals if they'd let any of the crap that gets posted get to them)
You haven't given anyone anything to invest in. Create a prototype. Put together something that gives people a feel for what you are creating. It's one of the best ways to get people on board with your project. Books, TV shows, movies, games... the pitch isn't all that different. You have 5-15 minutes (more like 3) to get someone with money to buy into your idea. Anyone serious about backing projects has dozens, if not hundreds, bombarding them each week. Show them why they should have their money behind yours, and the best way to do that is with a prototype, a demo or a playable slice of your game.
I needed to pitch a mobile game a few years ago and I had absolutely no clue how to code for mobile, BUT I knew HTML, so I made a scripted version of some of the gameplay in a webpage and when I pitched it, I showed it to them on my PSP. This gave them the feel of what the game was like, and it was on a screen big enough to actually see it. Once they saw the game and liked it (WHEW!), I was then able to move on to monetization, resources, manpower, etc needed to get the project done.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
the reality of it is, that its the Anti-WoW community that labels WoW as the first to do everything.
Thats why I say the Anti-WoW community isnt healthy for the MMO community as a whole.
"Monks? no WoW has monks, cant have monks in any other MMO because it will be a WoW clone"
replace "monk" with just about anything in common with WoW, and the Anti-WoW community come out full force with statements like the above.
honestly, this is what I believe killed Warhammer Online during development. The desire to beat WoW by being the Anti-WoW...
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The problem is that what Wow really fast first with was a polished high quality MMO. There were others with almost everything else before but those games were all rather unstable. Wow was a professional product unlike the games before it.
Sadly, most other devs were looking more on features and missing the point.
Same thing with Guildwars, it was low budget and lacked most of Wows features but it was still a proffesional product that sold surprisingly well.
I think most anti Wow people and Wow players alike miss this little thing. If EQ2 would have been that polished and Wow would have been the buggy mess then people would have copied EQ2 instead because it would have been the big one.
Now, new features can be really nice but it is secondary here, a buggy mess will never be a huge hit no matter how great features it have while a game with pretty limited features like GW that is really well made will do better. It might not be the next Wow but it will beat any buggy mess no matter how great features it have.
Or was it the fact a WoW antagonist even existed?
Mind you, the talk about a Warhammer MMO was already happening in the early 90's, but the parent company didn't have the funding to get into the video game industry. "WarCraft", preceded the "Shadow of the Horned Rat" RTS game on Sony Playstation, but I think anyone who ever played both games know's SotHR blew WC out of the water. But the damage was done. The franchise that stole the Orc, Human, Dwarf, Elf, Undead, Demonic, Magic across deminsional reality war theme, had made money off the sales to the WH fan base who only bought WC as a filler until the "REAL" game got released. The rushed, not well made, but well programmed and well funded WC RTS was a smash hit as well, and those who never got around to the SotHR missed the real masterpiece.
Then the same corporate entity did the same thing, by making a MMO twice as well produced, for twice the money, in half the time it took to release WAR.
So really all you people are championing is hostile takeover, and the lucky strike that WoW was designed by some pretty gifted talents. Taking nothing from the innovations and the skill sets that produced that actual work on the game, and I'm happy they got paid doing it.
I'm not hating them in that regard.
I'm hating the bypass that ruined the market for WAR well before it was on the shelves, and which forced it to rush to product to compete in the then flooded market against their pirated generic concept. WoW could have been done in a totally different fantasy setting and still be king, don't get me wrong, but they chose to usurp the position already filled by a king since 1988.
I like WoW for what it was, but loath it for what it did to the competition and particularly to WarHammer Fantasy Battles niches.
So think what you will, in the end it will be anti-WoW that restores the quality of online games to something not produced for masses to make billions, but something conserative to generate hardcore fans, that makes millions, and allows the shallow members of the MMO craze to phase out the way they should have if all there was, was a well made and better backed WAR.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
That was a subjective joke, but thank you, man.
I'll take this to heart, but I must stress my personal situation is close to no funds at all, so a demo of any kind is still a dream to me. All I have are conceptual writings and a few 3D renderings done on the mostly freely released programs.
;(
Without initial backers, I'm f--ked...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-