Sovrath, you must have went to a school that taught you that you are never wrong. They must have never put a bad mark on your paper. They didn't want to hurt your internal confidence level by early failures.
That was a joke, but used to make my point by doing to you what you are doing to the other knowledgeable gamer's on this thread.
In my kindergarten class my teacher stuck a frowny face on my page if I colored outside the lines.
Not sure I have much or a point, but I think you are beating a dead horse in not only pushing your agenda against multiple resistance points, but also in telling them what they are trying to say when they have their own voices and opinions.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Real MMOs cannot have permadeath. Permadeath means you cannot have invested much, if anything, into that character. Like Diablo HC - you are working on getting a high spot on the highscore, THAT is the game, not the character itself.
Not that Diablo would be a MMO. Or a RPG.
If however you have permadeath in a regular MMO and the player can lose in a moment the work he had done for months and years, people will /ragequit.
Sovrath, you must have went to a school that taught you that you are never wrong. They must have never put a bad mark on your paper. They didn't want to hurt your internal confidence level by early failures.
That was a joke, but used to make my point by doing to you what you are doing to the other knowledgeable gamer's on this thread.
In my kindergarten class my teacher stuck a frowny face on my page if I colored outside the lines.
Not sure I have much or a point, but I think you are beating a dead horse in not only pushing your agenda against multiple resistance points, but also in telling them what they are trying to say when they have their own voices and opinions.
I absolutely have no problem with people having their own opinions. But that's not what is being argued here.
People keep saying "It doesn't work because no one wants to lose their character after 100 hours, etc. Well, great. But that means it's not the game for them and they wouldn't be playing it. Their opinion that it's not the game for them is as valid as anyone's and more so because it is about them.
But these games are not about investing 100 hours into a character to lose them. Yet people keep using this as a valid argument as to "why it won't work". But there are people who will play a game like this and as long as it is budgeted accordingly I don't see the issue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I said it didn't work in a traditional MMORPG environment, that's a game that is all about character growth and spending hundreds of hours on that. I also made no stand on whether or not I would support the feature, I've never known you to be one to use such broad generalizations as to why someone is presenting an argument to you.
Using a feature like this takes real imagination, as well as out of the box design. It's a whole different concept to get folks behind. That is why it is rare... when it is used, it is usually an optional mode that gives the player the choice of partaking. What is ridiculous about pointing this out?
That's a fair point a thank you for clarifying the statement. And I completely agree.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Ok, so you're not being obtuse, you just refuse to acknowledge that people are culturally different. Coming from a Lineage 2 player, that's pretty damn odd, Sovrath.
Did you know western players often feel it is deceiving when the character creator has characters in top end gear, and eastern players are turned off by characters in the creator standing around in their underwear? Or that the cut scenes in the beginning of Wizardry Online are considered normal there, but were considered a tedious abomination in the west. So much so that they were reduced or taken out of the SOE version.
I can go on with dozens of cultural differences, and if you decide to be honest with yourself, you can too. That you refuse to accept it is considered a good game by the players there is ridiculous and makes me wonder if you are so entrenched in your view that you are just rejecting any argument to the contrary.
The problem here Loktofelt is that you aren't acknowledging that it's not a cut and dried. Of course there are cultural differences. but that doens't mean that everyone in the east and everyone in the west falls into these buckets where if you are from one area or another you have to fall into line and "like/enjoy" what your area says you have to like/enjoy.
I'm from the west and I prefer grind games. I'm not the only one. So why can't I seek out and patronize grind games? I do! Therefore there is a market, albeit small, for such games.
But then again, maybe this topic just points out that there are people who don't fall into certain camps and other people don't realize it. I certainly acknowledge that people won't like this game but that doesn't mean there aren't people who would love it.
I like 12 tone and aleatoric music. Most people don't like this. Yet I can walk into the city and find a concert where there are people who like this music and where they can enjoy it.
If this was a forum on music I would be defending the point that music doesn't have to have melody in a traditional sense and you guys would be saying "no, I want to have music with a melody, no one listens to that it won't work".
And that's just not true at all.
So let's see, what are people arguing? Their taste. That's perfectly acceptable and I have never said otherwise.
whether any permadeath game will work? Well, it certainly won't be a top 40 game that I can assure you. But there are people who would play one, I being one of them. And I'm not so special a snowflake as to be the only one who would.
The question is, for a permadeath game to "work" how would it best be designed and what type of budget would it need and what type of playerbase would it have to attract in order to keep it afloat.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem here Loktofelt is that you aren't acknowledging that it's not a cut and dried. Of course there are cultural differences. but that doens't mean that everyone in the east and everyone in the west falls into these buckets where if you are from one area or another you have to fall into line and "like/enjoy" what your area says you have to like/enjoy.
I'm from the west and I prefer grind games. I'm not the only one. So why can't I seek out and patronize grind games? I do! Therefore there is a market, albeit small, for such games.
Dude, no one said that there aren't people interested in permadeath in the west. Historically, there haven't been enough to make it economically viable for a multi-million dollar project to cater to them. You keep regurgitating over and over "But that's because no one has done it right."
I know you're not this dense, so I'll just write this off to trolling and consider myself stupid enough to get reeled in. Yay you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem here Loktofelt is that you aren't acknowledging that it's not a cut and dried. Of course there are cultural differences. but that doens't mean that everyone in the east and everyone in the west falls into these buckets where if you are from one area or another you have to fall into line and "like/enjoy" what your area says you have to like/enjoy.
I'm from the west and I prefer grind games. I'm not the only one. So why can't I seek out and patronize grind games? I do! Therefore there is a market, albeit small, for such games.
Dude, no one said that there aren't people interested in permadeath in the west. Historically, there haven't been enough to make it economically viable for a multi-million dollar project to cater to them. You keep regurgitating over and over "But that's because no one has done it right."
I know you're not this dense, so I'll just write this off to trolling and consider myself stupid enough to get reeled in. Yay you.
Look, it's a discussion on permadeath. There's no trolling. I'm discussing the topic. and I've addressed every point as clearly as I can. I have never once said anyone's opinion was invalid but I do insist that saying something "doesn't work because the majority don't want it" is not really a valid argument because there are so many things that are very niche that do work and that there are audiences for them.
And I don't see why you aren't recognizing that I keep saying it's not going to be a very popular game and therefore it needs to be budgeted accordingly.
I think it would have to be a very small budgeted project. Certainly not 80 to 100 million.
5 million? Smaller? As small as any of the indy projects that are around. Pick one. Pantheon? Shadow of the Avatar?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I only have 2 desires when it comes to permadeath.
1. Anyone cheating the system has their account banned. i.e. alt+f4 or other logout macro. pulling the plug or any other method of avoiding death that doesn't involve you interacting with the game (no, exploits are not allowed either).
2. Anyone who complains about losing their character to lag, disconnection issue, servers down for maintenance, new patch issue, etc. Instant account ban. You want to play permadeath, let's play permadeath and stop being whiny pansies.
Nothing worse than people who claim to want permadeath, but then refuse to accept when their character dies.
Permadeath kills communities, because it erases the identity that folks would like to get to know. (i.e., if Bob the Barbarian lasts only a couple of weeks, then gets killed and is replaced by Marty the Mage, how do folks really tie the two characters as being the same player?)
Remember, community is the glue that holds an MMO together, long-term. Permadeath adds too little and takes away too much, IMO.
(The only exception to this would be if permadeath were used as a counter to out-of-control PVP ganking. The PVPers who overdo it could become "outlaws", and if they are defeated near a town, could become imprisoned and tried perhaps by a jury of other players. A capital conviction could then permanently end that character.
And the "execution" event could be witnessed by other players and even disrupted by other PVP'er bent on rescuing their pal.
Therefore, the threat of permadeath makes a nice counter to anti-social gameplay taken too far and adds another facet of gameplay, but only if limited to scenarios like the above.)
that's an excellent point.
The only way then that could be avoided is to always have an identifier name. So if the game is designed around "family" then the family name would be the identifier.
If it was designed around, say "a clan" where every player developed a clan then it would have to be a clan name. Still, I think you bring up a good point as that seems to create some sort of impersonal moniker that just seems odd.
The only thing I can think of is that any character a player would use would be able to be "right clicked" or some such thing, and a player name associated with the group would be given.
Kind of like how ESO does it in that you see an @playeraccount. However, I really don't like that system. So yeah, good point.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Permadeath works very well in a LAN game but with MMOs there are problems.
For one thing do I think everyone here died a few times in a MMO due to technical issues which is unacceptable in a perma death MMO.
And when you add PvP to the mix griefing will take an entirely new dimension. Not to mention that all players will constantly move in large groups which kinda takes away some of the fun. And I am not talking about small groups of 4-6 players but more raid size and over.
You can of course add some perma death to the game like certain high rewarding raids (or the blood hunts WoDO was planning to include) but if you want to go full out perma death you need to resolve these issues unless you want the smallest niche MMO in history.
The idea is indeed thrilling but you just can't add permadeath servers to any game.
I only have 2 desires when it comes to permadeath.
1. Anyone cheating the system has their account banned. i.e. alt+f4 or other logout macro. pulling the plug or any other method of avoiding death that doesn't involve you interacting with the game (no, exploits are not allowed either).
2. Anyone who complains about losing their character to lag, disconnection issue, servers down for maintenance, new patch issue, etc. Instant account ban. You want to play permadeath, let's play permadeath and stop being whiny pansies.
Nothing worse than people who claim to want permadeath, but then refuse to accept when their character dies.
That is all fine as long as it happens to someone else but what do you do if a server glitch or a cheating player kills off your 2 year old character?
You need to find a technical solution first so players don't get killed unfairly. Lag is easy to log. You might also need something to see if an ISP provider goes down when you players die as well as access to your players windows logs, something that allows you to see if someone just pull the plug.
And of course something to detect cheaters.
You need to keep all things like this down to a minimum because most players would just quit the game after dying a few times without it being their faults. This is easy at a LAN when you got a gamemaster present but it needs a good system or you would soon be the only one playing.
It is indeed fine if your character dies in a permadeath game but only as long as it is your own fault, a server hiccup killing 100 players on the other hand is a disaster for any perma death game.
I only have 2 desires when it comes to permadeath.
1. Anyone cheating the system has their account banned. i.e. alt+f4 or other logout macro. pulling the plug or any other method of avoiding death that doesn't involve you interacting with the game (no, exploits are not allowed either).
2. Anyone who complains about losing their character to lag, disconnection issue, servers down for maintenance, new patch issue, etc. Instant account ban. You want to play permadeath, let's play permadeath and stop being whiny pansies.
Nothing worse than people who claim to want permadeath, but then refuse to accept when their character dies.
That is all fine as long as it happens to someone else but what do you do if a server glitch or a cheating player kills off your 2 year old character?
You need to find a technical solution first so players don't get killed unfairly. Lag is easy to log. You might also need something to see if an ISP provider goes down when you players die as well as access to your players windows logs, something that allows you to see if someone just pull the plug.
And of course something to detect cheaters.
You need to keep all things like this down to a minimum because most players would just quit the game after dying a few times without it being their faults. This is easy at a LAN when you got a gamemaster present but it needs a good system or you would soon be the only one playing.
It is indeed fine if your character dies in a permadeath game but only as long as it is your own fault, a server hiccup killing 100 players on the other hand is a disaster for any perma death game.
That's another huge issue.
The only way around that is, as you say, to monitor things such as connection and lag spikes. Additionally, I think having "several lives" will at least curtail any immediate issues unless someone is on their last life.
I think another issue is what to do about the players who die because of their own mistakes but insist that it was "lag". I can see a horde of people being bad sports and trying to lie their way through it and if they "don't get their way" then they just quit.
On one hand this would seem odd as part of the fun is the permadeath aspect but I wonder if developers will give in just to keep a customer. Which of course defeats the whole purpose.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's been my experience (on the subject of westerner's liking perma) that western players are pretty reckless. We often charge dashingly headlong into a fight just to see how we do, even when we know we will die, at least I do! lol
I have had many friends from my hemisphere who have been on that charge with me in games just for the heck of it. The careful measured "should I or shouldn't I" is not there in my kindred. It's something in the culture that allows American's to cross No Man's Land, do a D-Day landing, defeat a sneaky Tet Offensive, and not run from a rag-tag army like ISIL.
We don't really think...we assume we will win, but if we die, most of us are like, so?
But when you have a virtual world, the compulsion is like a thousand times stronger to not care if you die fighting. It just sux to us if you can only die once in a game. ;P
I like being able to die and respawn more than one time fly-or-fall, but that is just me talking.
Please take no offense to any of my RL war references, I'm just sayin...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
I think the reality is there is no such thing as permadeath. Because you can always create a new character. Or have multiple account.
For example diablo hardcore, everyone would have a mule account or bank to store items. Eve for example, everyone have multiple account.
Multiple accounts is already given on the mmorpg world, lets just look into other pespective, in one of your account WHAT IF you've already established a good reputation/level, already gained best items on the game and one day you were taken down (perma death) so its a game well played i guess when that comes :P
Those that mention Realm of the Mad God, think of how long your character is honestly alive...the answer should be around 1 sec - cpl hours (if you're lucky as shit). It's even more popular a mechanic now that there's a big rise (again) in roguelikes/lites and in games similar to DayZ, so there's definitely a market for games with permadeath. Would like to see more mmo devs "try" a system that leads to a permadeath, but not something like "died once = deleted char"
How about this way: Dying would lower a % called "Karma" or "Lifejuice" (whatev) that would appear around your healthbar, next to your current level. Dying in PvE/PvP would reduce it like 1-15%. If it gets below 30%, your character might drop items in your inventory/equipped items on your corpse. At 0, you drop everything.
Every 5 min or so you'd gain 1% karma, or by killing certain enemies or gain a huge increase if you kill enemy players who are known gankers (your name turns red after slaughtering enough lower lvl players or those of your own faction). You could visit a med facility (if scifi)/chapel and pay for karma/lifejuice healing.
My favorite MMO (and 1st not counting Asherons Call 2 trial), Neocron, had a system like this except it wasn't permadeath but dropping equipped items on death (it was much mor. If we couldn't have a permadeath mmo at least we could still cause players to FEAR death by having the player LOSE something other than the time it takes to walk back in ghost form to their corpse. I know this system has been in multiple games before, yes.
Originally posted by MajorBiggs Those that mention Realm of the Mad God, think of how long your character is honestly alive...the answer should be around 1 sec - cpl hours (if you're lucky as shit). It's even more popular a mechanic now that there's a big rise (again) in roguelikes/lites and in games similar to DayZ, so there's definitely a market for games with permadeath. Would like to see more mmo devs "try" a system that leads to a permadeath, but not something like "died once = deleted char"
How about this way: Dying would lower a % called "Karma" or "Lifejuice" (whatev) that would appear around your healthbar, next to your current level. Dying in PvE/PvP would reduce it like 1-15%. If it gets below 30%, your character might drop items in your inventory/equipped items on your corpse. At 0, you drop everything.
Every 5 min or so you'd gain 1% karma, or by killing certain enemies or gain a huge increase if you kill enemy players who are known gankers (your name turns red after slaughtering enough lower lvl players or those of your own faction). You could visit a med facility (if scifi)/chapel and pay for karma/lifejuice healing.
My favorite MMO (and 1st not counting Asherons Call 2 trial), Neocron, had a system like this except it wasn't permadeath but dropping equipped items on death (it was much mor. If we couldn't have a permadeath mmo at least we could still cause players to FEAR death by having the player LOSE something other than the time it takes to walk back in ghost form to their corpse. I know this system has been in multiple games before, yes.
That sounds better than "BAM" your dead looser!
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
It is indeed fine if your character dies in a permadeath game but only as long as it is your own fault, a server hiccup killing 100 players on the other hand is a disaster for any perma death game.
That's another huge issue.
The only way around that is, as you say, to monitor things such as connection and lag spikes. Additionally, I think having "several lives" will at least curtail any immediate issues unless someone is on their last life.
I think another issue is what to do about the players who die because of their own mistakes but insist that it was "lag". I can see a horde of people being bad sports and trying to lie their way through it and if they "don't get their way" then they just quit.
On one hand this would seem odd as part of the fun is the permadeath aspect but I wonder if developers will give in just to keep a customer. Which of course defeats the whole purpose.
Indeed. In any case do you need to put a lot of work into minimizing technical issues. I would suggest that you both monitor the server and the client for hiccups.
For exampkle if a computer suddenly crashes you can see if it was due to lack of power (usually the player pulling the plug) or something else.
There will still be people crying about it no matter if you are able to get it 100% fair which ain't going to happen, but you can get it 95% fair at least.
I can tell you one thing: any modern perma death MMO would let you ressurect a dead character for a fee in the RMT shop. Yeah, it takes away the point of perma death, at least somewhat but I don't think a single publisher or company could let a cash sow like that be.
On the plus side would it probably silence some of the whiners who died fair...
A perma death MMO is certainly within possibilities, or perma death servers on a regular MMO for that matter but it will take some work, you just can't stop rezzing on a server set without doing any more or people just wont play. You need to see exactly why each player died and know if anything technical killed them.
Anything else will just fail worse than a low budget FFAPvP sandbox with full looting.
And now am I talking about a PvE perma death game (possibly with duels), I think that a PvP perma death game would flop no matter how you do it. There would just be zerging and players had to roll a bunch new characters every day even if they play well.
It is indeed fine if your character dies in a permadeath game but only as long as it is your own fault, a server hiccup killing 100 players on the other hand is a disaster for any perma death game.
That's another huge issue.
The only way around that is, as you say, to monitor things such as connection and lag spikes. Additionally, I think having "several lives" will at least curtail any immediate issues unless someone is on their last life.
I think another issue is what to do about the players who die because of their own mistakes but insist that it was "lag". I can see a horde of people being bad sports and trying to lie their way through it and if they "don't get their way" then they just quit.
On one hand this would seem odd as part of the fun is the permadeath aspect but I wonder if developers will give in just to keep a customer. Which of course defeats the whole purpose.
Indeed. In any case do you need to put a lot of work into minimizing technical issues. I would suggest that you both monitor the server and the client for hiccups.
For exampkle if a computer suddenly crashes you can see if it was due to lack of power (usually the player pulling the plug) or something else.
There will still be people crying about it no matter if you are able to get it 100% fair which ain't going to happen, but you can get it 95% fair at least.
I can tell you one thing: any modern perma death MMO would let you ressurect a dead character for a fee in the RMT shop. Yeah, it takes away the point of perma death, at least somewhat but I don't think a single publisher or company could let a cash sow like that be.
On the plus side would it probably silence some of the whiners who died fair...
A perma death MMO is certainly within possibilities, or perma death servers on a regular MMO for that matter but it will take some work, you just can't stop rezzing on a server set without doing any more or people just wont play. You need to see exactly why each player died and know if anything technical killed them.
Anything else will just fail worse than a low budget FFAPvP sandbox with full looting.
And now am I talking about a PvE perma death game (possibly with duels), I think that a PvP perma death game would flop no matter how you do it. There would just be zerging and players had to roll a bunch new characters every day even if they play well.
Good points, and I like the idea of a PvE with a permadeath PvP duel option. Noting would be sweeter then to send a loud mouth trash talker to the grave.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Comments
Sovrath, you must have went to a school that taught you that you are never wrong. They must have never put a bad mark on your paper. They didn't want to hurt your internal confidence level by early failures.
That was a joke, but used to make my point by doing to you what you are doing to the other knowledgeable gamer's on this thread.
In my kindergarten class my teacher stuck a frowny face on my page if I colored outside the lines.
Not sure I have much or a point, but I think you are beating a dead horse in not only pushing your agenda against multiple resistance points, but also in telling them what they are trying to say when they have their own voices and opinions.
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Real MMOs cannot have permadeath. Permadeath means you cannot have invested much, if anything, into that character. Like Diablo HC - you are working on getting a high spot on the highscore, THAT is the game, not the character itself.
Not that Diablo would be a MMO. Or a RPG.
If however you have permadeath in a regular MMO and the player can lose in a moment the work he had done for months and years, people will /ragequit.
I absolutely have no problem with people having their own opinions. But that's not what is being argued here.
People keep saying "It doesn't work because no one wants to lose their character after 100 hours, etc. Well, great. But that means it's not the game for them and they wouldn't be playing it. Their opinion that it's not the game for them is as valid as anyone's and more so because it is about them.
But these games are not about investing 100 hours into a character to lose them. Yet people keep using this as a valid argument as to "why it won't work". But there are people who will play a game like this and as long as it is budgeted accordingly I don't see the issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's a fair point a thank you for clarifying the statement. And I completely agree.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The problem here Loktofelt is that you aren't acknowledging that it's not a cut and dried. Of course there are cultural differences. but that doens't mean that everyone in the east and everyone in the west falls into these buckets where if you are from one area or another you have to fall into line and "like/enjoy" what your area says you have to like/enjoy.
I'm from the west and I prefer grind games. I'm not the only one. So why can't I seek out and patronize grind games? I do! Therefore there is a market, albeit small, for such games.
But then again, maybe this topic just points out that there are people who don't fall into certain camps and other people don't realize it. I certainly acknowledge that people won't like this game but that doesn't mean there aren't people who would love it.
I like 12 tone and aleatoric music. Most people don't like this. Yet I can walk into the city and find a concert where there are people who like this music and where they can enjoy it.
If this was a forum on music I would be defending the point that music doesn't have to have melody in a traditional sense and you guys would be saying "no, I want to have music with a melody, no one listens to that it won't work".
And that's just not true at all.
So let's see, what are people arguing? Their taste. That's perfectly acceptable and I have never said otherwise.
whether any permadeath game will work? Well, it certainly won't be a top 40 game that I can assure you. But there are people who would play one, I being one of them. And I'm not so special a snowflake as to be the only one who would.
The question is, for a permadeath game to "work" how would it best be designed and what type of budget would it need and what type of playerbase would it have to attract in order to keep it afloat.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Dude, no one said that there aren't people interested in permadeath in the west. Historically, there haven't been enough to make it economically viable for a multi-million dollar project to cater to them. You keep regurgitating over and over "But that's because no one has done it right."
I know you're not this dense, so I'll just write this off to trolling and consider myself stupid enough to get reeled in. Yay you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Look, it's a discussion on permadeath. There's no trolling. I'm discussing the topic. and I've addressed every point as clearly as I can. I have never once said anyone's opinion was invalid but I do insist that saying something "doesn't work because the majority don't want it" is not really a valid argument because there are so many things that are very niche that do work and that there are audiences for them.
And I don't see why you aren't recognizing that I keep saying it's not going to be a very popular game and therefore it needs to be budgeted accordingly.
I think it would have to be a very small budgeted project. Certainly not 80 to 100 million.
5 million? Smaller? As small as any of the indy projects that are around. Pick one. Pantheon? Shadow of the Avatar?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I only have 2 desires when it comes to permadeath.
1. Anyone cheating the system has their account banned. i.e. alt+f4 or other logout macro. pulling the plug or any other method of avoiding death that doesn't involve you interacting with the game (no, exploits are not allowed either).
2. Anyone who complains about losing their character to lag, disconnection issue, servers down for maintenance, new patch issue, etc. Instant account ban. You want to play permadeath, let's play permadeath and stop being whiny pansies.
Nothing worse than people who claim to want permadeath, but then refuse to accept when their character dies.
that's an excellent point.
The only way then that could be avoided is to always have an identifier name. So if the game is designed around "family" then the family name would be the identifier.
If it was designed around, say "a clan" where every player developed a clan then it would have to be a clan name. Still, I think you bring up a good point as that seems to create some sort of impersonal moniker that just seems odd.
The only thing I can think of is that any character a player would use would be able to be "right clicked" or some such thing, and a player name associated with the group would be given.
Kind of like how ESO does it in that you see an @playeraccount. However, I really don't like that system. So yeah, good point.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Permadeath works very well in a LAN game but with MMOs there are problems.
For one thing do I think everyone here died a few times in a MMO due to technical issues which is unacceptable in a perma death MMO.
And when you add PvP to the mix griefing will take an entirely new dimension. Not to mention that all players will constantly move in large groups which kinda takes away some of the fun. And I am not talking about small groups of 4-6 players but more raid size and over.
You can of course add some perma death to the game like certain high rewarding raids (or the blood hunts WoDO was planning to include) but if you want to go full out perma death you need to resolve these issues unless you want the smallest niche MMO in history.
The idea is indeed thrilling but you just can't add permadeath servers to any game.
That is all fine as long as it happens to someone else but what do you do if a server glitch or a cheating player kills off your 2 year old character?
You need to find a technical solution first so players don't get killed unfairly. Lag is easy to log. You might also need something to see if an ISP provider goes down when you players die as well as access to your players windows logs, something that allows you to see if someone just pull the plug.
And of course something to detect cheaters.
You need to keep all things like this down to a minimum because most players would just quit the game after dying a few times without it being their faults. This is easy at a LAN when you got a gamemaster present but it needs a good system or you would soon be the only one playing.
It is indeed fine if your character dies in a permadeath game but only as long as it is your own fault, a server hiccup killing 100 players on the other hand is a disaster for any perma death game.
That's another huge issue.
The only way around that is, as you say, to monitor things such as connection and lag spikes. Additionally, I think having "several lives" will at least curtail any immediate issues unless someone is on their last life.
I think another issue is what to do about the players who die because of their own mistakes but insist that it was "lag". I can see a horde of people being bad sports and trying to lie their way through it and if they "don't get their way" then they just quit.
On one hand this would seem odd as part of the fun is the permadeath aspect but I wonder if developers will give in just to keep a customer. Which of course defeats the whole purpose.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's been my experience (on the subject of westerner's liking perma) that western players are pretty reckless. We often charge dashingly headlong into a fight just to see how we do, even when we know we will die, at least I do! lol
I have had many friends from my hemisphere who have been on that charge with me in games just for the heck of it. The careful measured "should I or shouldn't I" is not there in my kindred. It's something in the culture that allows American's to cross No Man's Land, do a D-Day landing, defeat a sneaky Tet Offensive, and not run from a rag-tag army like ISIL.
We don't really think...we assume we will win, but if we die, most of us are like, so?
But when you have a virtual world, the compulsion is like a thousand times stronger to not care if you die fighting. It just sux to us if you can only die once in a game. ;P
I like being able to die and respawn more than one time fly-or-fall, but that is just me talking.
Please take no offense to any of my RL war references, I'm just sayin...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Multiple accounts is already given on the mmorpg world, lets just look into other pespective, in one of your account WHAT IF you've already established a good reputation/level, already gained best items on the game and one day you were taken down (perma death) so its a game well played i guess when that comes :P
How about this way: Dying would lower a % called "Karma" or "Lifejuice" (whatev) that would appear around your healthbar, next to your current level. Dying in PvE/PvP would reduce it like 1-15%. If it gets below 30%, your character might drop items in your inventory/equipped items on your corpse. At 0, you drop everything.
Every 5 min or so you'd gain 1% karma, or by killing certain enemies or gain a huge increase if you kill enemy players who are known gankers (your name turns red after slaughtering enough lower lvl players or those of your own faction). You could visit a med facility (if scifi)/chapel and pay for karma/lifejuice healing.
My favorite MMO (and 1st not counting Asherons Call 2 trial), Neocron, had a system like this except it wasn't permadeath but dropping equipped items on death (it was much mor. If we couldn't have a permadeath mmo at least we could still cause players to FEAR death by having the player LOSE something other than the time it takes to walk back in ghost form to their corpse. I know this system has been in multiple games before, yes.
That sounds better than "BAM" your dead looser!"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Unless you are given one character only and once that character dies the game is over and you can never play again, then that is permadeath.
Anything else is just horseshit.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Indeed. In any case do you need to put a lot of work into minimizing technical issues. I would suggest that you both monitor the server and the client for hiccups.
For exampkle if a computer suddenly crashes you can see if it was due to lack of power (usually the player pulling the plug) or something else.
There will still be people crying about it no matter if you are able to get it 100% fair which ain't going to happen, but you can get it 95% fair at least.
I can tell you one thing: any modern perma death MMO would let you ressurect a dead character for a fee in the RMT shop. Yeah, it takes away the point of perma death, at least somewhat but I don't think a single publisher or company could let a cash sow like that be.
On the plus side would it probably silence some of the whiners who died fair...
A perma death MMO is certainly within possibilities, or perma death servers on a regular MMO for that matter but it will take some work, you just can't stop rezzing on a server set without doing any more or people just wont play. You need to see exactly why each player died and know if anything technical killed them.
Anything else will just fail worse than a low budget FFAPvP sandbox with full looting.
And now am I talking about a PvE perma death game (possibly with duels), I think that a PvP perma death game would flop no matter how you do it. There would just be zerging and players had to roll a bunch new characters every day even if they play well.
Good points, and I like the idea of a PvE with a permadeath PvP duel option. Noting would be sweeter then to send a loud mouth trash talker to the grave."Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-