Those wacky trade skills

Clever_Glove · December 2003

There is a saying: "Trade skills suck", yet some of us are driven to do them anyway.

Most games do not allow you to master all TS's.
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I never understood this.. can we not be a Chemistry major then go back for Art History? Why not allow one character to master all skills given enough time? This system of skill selection causes people to create trade skill alts.

It does not act as a trade catalyst. Very few are crazy enough to do trade skills, typically the same person will have X alts to master all of them... why cause them the hassle of having to trade items around?

Farming for items
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This is probably the worst idea ever. Not only is the task of doing trade skills monotonous, you must combine that with farming something for hours and hours on end.

Skill ups
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Does beating a nail over and over make you a better carpenter or just better at driving nails? Why does doing a simple task over and over make you better at something (and often something unrelated)

I think there should be trade schools, just like in life, you can pay the tuition and send your character there. (preferable while your asleep) then you go practice for a bit, and back to school. This is allow
it to be boring/expensive enough so not all people will master trades. Although I'm not sure what the down side would be if everyone was a trade skill master?

Have you gotten into trade skills?
What did or didn't you like about them?
Will keep doing trade skill in future games?
What do you suggest to make the process more fun?

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

air_head1 · December 2003

man ur poll is fricken long to answer

rathma · December 2003

i took time to answer every question but when i finished nothing came up. MMORPG must not like me lol

________________________________
Peter : "Why did all the dinosaurs become extinct?"
Teacher: "Because you touch yourself at night."

Clandestine · December 2003

Bah! I addressed every question as well, and when it submitted, I lost everything.

Clandestine · December 2003

Here's a quick rundown of my big post that was lost:

1. It's not realistic to master all tradeskills.
2. Farming for items makes sense and saves a lot of money for a player who wishes to not adventure and do all tradeskills.
3. Crafting things 2,000 times is no good. I agree that small quantities of items should be crafted, but the process should take a whole lot longer. Say 1/2 hour to make a longsword and you should be doing things the whole time.
4. Schools is a good idea. It would be nice to see schools that require textbook training and even tests, along with hands on training. This would be more realistic and would be more fun to the player.
5. Everyone should not be a tradeskill master, because that would make tradeskills mundane and not give people a motivation to do tradeskills. Also the world would be way overpopulated with items and the economy would crash if it is a player run economy. Also, people who want to do nothing in the game but tradeskills would be left behind. Not everyone wants to fight in a MMORPG and this would force fighting upon everyone.

Koltrane · December 2003

I read an article the other day where the author referred to crafting as "the new crochet for our sedentary generation." I don't know if I'd go that far, but I'd say that most crafting I've encountered is extremely mundane.

There's another saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none," meaning that you can either have a little skill in everything or high skill in one or two things and no knowledge of others. Just like in life, it is a rare individual that can become a master of multiple skills. How many neurosurgeons are also federal judges? Some skills take a high level of dedication, making it almost impossible for an individual to achieve mastery in more than one.

I really like the idea of trade schools, but I think it should be something more than pay a fee, get a skill set. I think admission into a trade school should allow exclusive access to specialized tasks that build one's skill set, but preclude entrance into an alternate trade school until completion of the first, i.e. only one school at a time.

I'd like to see an apprenticeship system set up, where a master craftsman would train (and need) less advanced players. For example, a master armorsmith can make a rare jade helmet, but it requires copper studs which he, having reached master level, may no longer craft. Copper studs are exclusive to apprentice armorsmiths, so the master can craft the final item, but he is dependent upon apprentices to make some of the parts. Something like that.

I think if everyone was a trade skill master, then no one would need to be a trade skill master. In other words, if every other character was a master swordsmith, high level crafted swords wouldn't be all that rare. Why would I go out and work hard to hone my skill if everyone has it? It's why there are no professional paper airplane makers IRL. Why would I pay some guy to fold me a glider when I can do it just as well? Yeah, yeah, a lame analogy, but the best I could do on short notice.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

Uiruru · December 2003

Personally I think it would be cool if you could get so high then you have to find a master that would be willing to "teach" you the rest of the skill needed to level up to skill master. They could also cap the ammount of people that one master can teach, so that you dont have a billion trade masters. Just a thought...

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

air_head1 · December 2003

and a good thought it seams to be

Uiruru · December 2003

Thanks, I try...

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

Clandestine · December 2003

Very good ideas Koltrane and Uiruru! Maybe some game developers will browse these boards and take some hints.

Sensei_Kaels · December 2003

tradeskills always costed too much for me to master them. I tried getting into it, but the money and time spend crafting something over and over to gain little skill was horribly boring. They do this so that you spend more time playing their game and giving them more money.

Clever_Glove · December 2003

Why isn't every one a Marine Biologist or a Chemical Engineer? Everyone "could" be. In life the schools are expensive in both money and time, many just lack the interest.

If everyone could be a trade skill master in a game, the same would be true. Most people just are interested in it. But a few are, While it sounds great to not let those people master all skills, they just make alts to master all skills. Is that more realistic?

The problem is trade skills are nothing more than time spent in game, most a simple set macro's could perform the action for you. Generally my trade skill work is preformed while watching TV or playing a different character on another machine. Because it's just a issue of time spent, I can master all of them. The problem is with how trade skills work, not with my ability to master them. In short they are to simple.

I like the idea of schools, that would be great is a trade skill system could be pseudo based on RL. You get a forge, you pound on certain spots to bend the metal, heat it, pound, heat it, pound... and so on. Maybe you'd only need to make 5 or 6 swords to master "making copper swords" then you could move on to making Bronze weapons. You could melt the copper and tin together... then move on to Iron. You need to work the bellows to convert Iron Oxide ore into a weapons grade Iron (you need to remove the oxygen from the ore, by buring it. The O combines with the CO from the charcoal), then forge it. but that's more a game in a game and I'm not how sure "virtual" black smiting would translate into a MMORPG. But it's a neat idea. (and simi-educational)

I like the idea of Apprenticeships. But rather than make lower skilled players the only ones that can make X item. Making things should go quicker with 2 people. Maybe the apprentice could run the bellows so the master spend more time forging... hence quicker weapon/armor production. Both could receive skill-ups form this process making it beneficial for both, but not a requirement. (so early morning players are penalized) Maybe the highest end items would require 2 people to make.

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Uiruru · December 2003

I like your idea clever, but the only probelm is that if you get a couple people doind this inflation and rare items might flood the market. I think that it would be cool if the strength of whatever you are making was based on your skill. Therefore you would want to seek out a better craftsman to make things for you. Although the strength of the item would still have to be kept within the physical boundries of the metal, or whatever. I would also like to see a greater ease with combining skills. For example if you have mastered something such as pottery or something artistic or something you might not have to learn quite as much to do with metals becasue you might be familiar with some of them from other skills.

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

Clever_Glove · December 2003

probelm is that if you get a couple people doind this inflation and rare items might flood the market

How make a game economy is a different topic. But the basis of it: There must be a system on witch items are removed form the market. EQ suffers from a poor game economy, most other games have learned the lession. But this is another topic I'll post some time.

But just for a moment, let's say your right, if people could make the best items in the game. And everyone that gets to the highend could buy or make the best gear in the game.. the down side is... what?

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Uiruru · December 2003

The downside to this is the amount of power a new player could have. I just think that one who is new shouldnt have access to all the uber powerful equipment. The thing is that if a large portion of the newb population had access to this kind of equipment it would through the whole game out of synk. You would have people skilling at unheard of rates because of this equipment... maybe... of course I could be a stupid old fool who doesnt think about level requirments but this is a hypothetical isnt it?

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

thegravyboat · December 2003

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

Why isn't every one a Marine Biologist or a Chemical Engineer? Everyone "could" be. In life the schools are expensive in both money and time, many just lack the interest.

Most people call it quits after one PhD... Seriously 6 years of doc and post doc work?

I mean look at it this way, of course someone can get a BS in Math chemistry biology and physics.... (im bout half way there) but there is no way you are going to get a MS in more than 2 of those and theres no way your going to get a PhD in more then one of those feilds. Unless you are completely dedicated to learning. But ussualy you want to work in your feild, excell in what you do rather then spend years learning and learning and learning but never doing anything with it.

As far as trade skills go, Id much rather see the area of research and development be expanded. Most games currently is You have Item-You Press Make Item-You Fail or Succeed But what about experimentation. I think SWG did a nice job on that, but it was still pretty basic. I mean hell in RL I spend 5 billion hours in the lab and still really dont figure much out. I wanna see processes put into games that are like 40-90 steps long along a vastly unknown path. That might actually catch my attention and desire to do any sort of trade skill.

~Best thing since sliced bread

FaeryShivers · December 2003

Allright I'm going to use the analogy I usually use when reffering to why you shouldn't be allowed to master more than one or two tradeskills:

In most cases for games you're either really good at graphics..or really good at programming because they both require almost a lifetime of devotion to learn and develop. I don't agree with everyone being able to max out skills without their skills in other areas dwindling..I mean yes some things like learning to ride a bike you usually don't forget but if you give up art or programming for too long you begin to forget some things and have to relearn.

_______________________________
http://www.aspereta.com

Clever_Glove · December 2003

Your missing the point. Game Tradeskills are normally simple skills in RL, even simpler in the game. Trust me, each and every one of us, could learn to cook, pot making, and fishing. The problem isn't the concept, the problem is game tradeskills are too simple and they are nothing more than pushing a button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... This needs to change.

The second problem with "no one can be a master of all" is usability issue. The truth is, only about 10% of the community is "really" into tradeskills, those are the people that will master a skill, then make alts to master all the others. They love it, it's what they play for. The rest of us may just tinker around with it, but never really get into it much.

If you rather do tradeskills than kill mob_01 over and over, why not let people do as much of them as want? Why make people trade items around to alts to preform the activity they are paying 12.95 a month to do?

By limiting people to 1 master trade per character you are not keeping the same RL people from mastering all game skills, your only making it inconvenient to that person.

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

Uiruru · December 2003

I agree, I mean it really is just an annoyance...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

hercules · December 2003

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

There is a saying: "Trade skills suck", yet some of us are driven to do them anyway.
Most games do not allow you to master all TS's.
----
I never understood this.. can we not be a Chemistry major then go back for Art History? Why not allow one character to master all skills given enough time? This system of skill selection causes people to create trade skill alts.
It does not act as a trade catalyst. Very few are crazy enough to do trade skills, typically the same person will have X alts to master all of them... why cause them the hassle of having to trade items around?
Farming for items
----
This is probably the worst idea ever. Not only is the task of doing trade skills monotonous, you must combine that with farming something for hours and hours on end.
Skill ups
----
Does beating a nail over and over make you a better carpenter or just better at driving nails? Why does doing a simple task over and over make you better at something (and often something unrelated)

I think there should be trade schools, just like in life, you can pay the tuition and send your character there. (preferable while your asleep) then you go practice for a bit, and back to school. This is allow
it to be boring/expensive enough so not all people will master trades. Although I'm not sure what the down side would be if everyone was a trade skill master?

Have you gotten into trade skills?
What did or didn't you like about them?
Will keep doing trade skill in future games?
What do you suggest to make the process more fun?

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."
A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%
Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

mastering all trade skills will cause an over saturation of crafters.So thats why most games limit what you can be to a certain number of points or a tree.Applies to all professions.

Also in a game like SWG nearly 40 percent of the community has trade skills as it is and given the chance everyone would have them.

farming stuff.Well depends on game this is why i probably atm rate SWG crafting as number oneYou don't have to farm anything you just survey for a good spot and drop your harvestors and come back at end of couple of days and you got your resources.

Beating a hammer over and over.Well in real life practise makes perfect but can undertstand the boredom of doing it.Still you need a way to get people to actually work their way to master rather then just have money and buy it.

thegravyboat · December 2003

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

By limiting people to 1 master trade per character you are not keeping the same RL people from mastering all game skills, your only making it inconvenient to that person.

Thats why I like games that limit 1 char per server. Its an RP issue, and in an MMORPG we are looking at the role playing. Creating more then 1 char just so you can have all the uber gear is pure powergamer, while im guilty of powergaming myself, I dont want to see easy ways to do it. (but yes I hate games that force you to kill 5.8 million mobs inorder to get a single level, I'd rather do quests and think)

On another note, I really dont consider fishing, basic cooking, camping and ect to be TRUE tradeskills. Things like alchemy, expert cooking, amorcrafting, weapon smithing, gem cutting, ect ect ect, things that "master" in their trade would take their whole life to perfect. Now there are plenty of Gem cutters who dabble in alchemy and Weaponsmiths who dabble in armor crafting, but never full develop their secondary skill. How many weapon smiths do you think can cook food that will make your body tingle at just the smell of it?

~Best thing since sliced bread

Clever_Glove · December 2003

I've often wish that people were limited to 1 character per sever. Not as much to TS reasons, but of what value is a reputation if you can swap out to your harassment character? Then come back with your main. Multiple characters per account completely nullifies the "reputation" factor of the game. It does create a market for twink alts though.... that's generally good for TSers

-=-=-=-=-
"EQ was once a great game. I wont deny it, but so was Asteroids. And just like Pong, EQ is obsolete by newer game standards."

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here

hercules · December 2003

SWG has one character per server but its more to do with making more money by making people have multiple accounts then role playing.

Theo · December 2003

I like the idea of trade schools, and also the idea that it should take more than a mere tuition fee to gain entry to them. Perhaps a series of quests to prove your dedication? "Go forth and collect the skins of each of these 6 animals, and bring them to me. Then we will begin." Something you're going to use, something that makes sense.

I don't mind that most games only allow you to master one tradeskill. It encourages (without requiring) interdependence among players. Forcing higher level crafters to rely on lower level ones for mundane items like copper studs, as was suggested, may encourage communication and collaboration, but it seems frustating and unrealistic. When a warrior is able to slay a dragon, should he need to hire newbies to slay the rats in his keep? If crafting items takes time, higher levels will likely purchase components from lower levels rather than go through the tedium of doing it themselves.

I like the idea of lower volume and higher time investment. Taking a half hour to craft components and assemble a long sword, gaining skill at several points along the way, would be a lot more enjoyable and feel like more of an accomplishment than clicking repeatedly on stacks of items you can't use or sell in the hope of getting a skill up.

To throw in a bitch about EQ as well, I remember starting a new character on the Firiona Vie server (the roleplaying one) when it was new. The player population was low, there was no economy to speak of, and the best way to get gear was to craft it or quest for it. Determined not to look up spoilers and learn for myself this time, I set out to craft my armor and weapons. Imagine my frustration when I discovered I couldn't find the hilt mold I needed to even ATTEMPT to make my sword in my city, the next city (one of the largest in the game) or ANY city. I had to run across several huge zones to a hut in the middle of nowhere and load up a pack full of molds, then run all the way back. Took about 45 minutes I think. I believe they've fixed this to some extent now, but VI's idea of making quests and trades more challenging was to force you to travel extensively and zone repeatedly to acquire components. Grr.

Theo · December 2003

Originally posted by thegravyboat

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

By limiting people to 1 master trade per character you are not keeping the same RL people from mastering all game skills, your only making it inconvenient to that person.

Thats why I like games that limit 1 char per server.

I agree that it really only makes it inconvenient for the player. Let them master all skills, but make mastery of every skill past the first more expensive or time-consuming to achieve. It should be possible, but uncommon.

I'm torn on the idea of one character per server. For the most part, I like the idea. No twinks running around in uber gear, no mules. I think people with only one character identify more with their toon. That said, I enjoy playing with alternate abilty sets now and then. I guess I wouldn't mind doing that on another server though.

Koltrane · December 2003

I appreciate both sides of the one player per server argument. The reason I like having multiple characters on a single server is that once I max out my Paladin, I can start a lowbie Cleric and still communicate with my high level friends. Also, people (myself included) get familiar with the dynamics of a given server (e.g. the social structure, the server economy).

In the pre-Luclin days of EQ, some servers had the marketplace in EC, some in N. Freeport. I even heard of one located in N. Ro. An item that sold for 500pp on one server might go for 1200pp on another. Changing servers presents a learning curve at times. My point is that there's more to multiple characters per server than the griefers who don't want to stain their main's rep while their alternate misbehaves or the twinkers who want a level 1 character with level 45 equipment.

Many games have started designating certain servers as roleplaying servers. Perhaps these could be designated as single character and the general servers could allow multiple characters. This would give those who enjoy roleplaying and reputation to have an environment where that is encouraged.

I'm with whoever said that fishing, baking, and alcohol tolerance are not true skills (well, maybe alcohol tolerance is ) compared to smithing, jewelry, and fletching. These higher level skills should require a good amount of specialization. Maybe, rather than limiting one's ability, the skills should merely degrade the longer they go unused. That way, time becomes the limiting factor rather than skill points.

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. (written on the SW:G CD)

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Those wacky trade skills

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