Camelot Unchained | Triple 6 on All Hallows Eve | MMORPG

SBFord · November 2015

Camelot Unchained | Triple 6 on All Hallows Eve | MMORPG

Six, yes I said SIX more classes have been unveiled since we last talked. If the Heavy Fighter and Archer class trios felt a bit more traditional (by CU standards) then the last two trios have pulled things right back into the veil of BSCU! Timing was perfect for Shapeshifters and Scouts if for no other reason because all six of these classes would feel right at home on All Hallows' Eve! They have the look, they have the mechanics, they have the darkness, ladies and gentlemen I smell alts!

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st3v3b0 · November 2015

I kicked in on this way back when during their KickStarter campaign. I wonder if I have access to anything?

Piscore · November 2015

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

falc0n · November 2015

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

DAoC had the same amount. Most fun I ever had in an mmo.

Sinsai · November 2015

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

To many? No. That is what made DAoC so addictive,along with the RvR, was you could go to another realm and have a completely new experience. MJ knows this. Whether you take the lazy "Mirrored" class route, giving each side identical classes just reskinned/named different or make unique classes per side ,you're still going to be continuously balancing classes.

brihtwulf · November 2015

Having a lot of classes doesn't mean there won't be balance. There's plenty of time to test and balance the classes. And on the programming side it mostly comes down to the math of making sure one class doesn't have more defense and offense than others. I think more classes just offers more variety to gameplay and enhances things.

MarkJacobs · November 2015

st3v3b0 said:

I kicked in on this way back when during their KickStarter campaign. I wonder if I have access to anything?

You should. If you don't, let me know and we'll make sure you have access to the Forums at least.

Thanks for helping us out during the Kickstarter!

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

It's not the number of classes that is the main problem, it is the abilities/components that will be challenging. However, as pointed out below, this won't be the first time I've tried to create a game with lots of classes. One other thing to keep in mind is that not all of our classes will have the same number of abilities/components. Some classes will be narrower in their scope/focus than others. This will definitely help, especially in the case of the Scouts.

falc0n said:

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

DAoC had the same amount. Most fun I ever had in an mmo.

Thanks! It was a great game, made by a great team of guys and gals. Thanks for supporting it!

Sinsai said:

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

To many? No. That is what made DAoC so addictive,along with the RvR, was you could go to another realm and have a completely new experience. MJ knows this. Whether you take the lazy "Mirrored" class route, giving each side identical classes just reskinned/named different or make unique classes per side ,you're still going to be continuously balancing classes.

Yep! I'd rather have more, non-mirrored classes and deal with the balance headache than the other way, especially in a niche MMORPG. If we were trying for a larger market share, mirrored makes more sense (sadly). However, since we are not going down that route, having non-mirrored classes makes so much more sense, and frankly, is more fun.brihtwulf said:

Having a lot of classes doesn't mean there won't be balance. There's plenty of time to test and balance the classes. And on the programming side it mostly comes down to the math of making sure one class doesn't have more defense and offense than others. I think more classes just offers more variety to gameplay and enhances things.

We (Backers + Devs) shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of what we are trying to do. The good news is that we've been rather open about the path we are taking and our Backers agree with it. That will make things a lot easier, especially since we will be meeting their expectations with those large number of non-mirrored classes.

Thanks Tim, Bill and MMORPG, as usual, for the article/coverage!

Jermzy · November 2015

Exactly what i loved about DAoC. Sure, they always had class balance issues, but what game doesn't? The thing i hate most about a lot of games, is switching to another realm and playing the EXACT same class with the EXACT same abilities. Boring.

MarkJacobs · November 2015

Jermzy said:

Exactly what i loved about DAoC. Sure, they always had class balance issues, but what game doesn't? The thing i hate most about a lot of games, is switching to another realm and playing the EXACT same class with the EXACT same abilities. Boring.

Agreed. And from what we've revealed so far, that isn't going to happen with our game either.

Thanks for your patronage of Dark Age of Camelot. I hope you enjoy Camelot Unchained as well!

Krimzin · November 2015

I played DAOC for many years and balancing was always addressed. When you have non mirrored classes the replay model is so much greater. Like someone posted above, you switch teams and classes and it becomes a whole new experience. I think its one of the main reasons DAOC lasted so long, that and Darkness Falls.. That was such a fun dungeon. I hope we will be seeing similar dungeon styles in CU.

MarkJacobs · November 2015

Krimzin said:

I played DAOC for many years and balancing was always addressed. When you have non mirrored classes the replay model is so much greater. Like someone posted above, you switch teams and classes and it becomes a whole new experience. I think its one of the main reasons DAOC lasted so long, that and Darkness Falls.. That was such a fun dungeon. I hope we will be seeing similar dungeon styles in CU.

Thanks! We will have The Depths, and well, it's going to be an interesting place.

TheUnscathed · November 2015

Hey Mark, DAOC was one of my penultimate gaming experiences. Thanks and bravo there. Will this game have as deep of PVE as that game did, or is this going to be mostly a PVP experience. Also will there be any classes that have unique movement like the hovering vampyrs? Thanks!

waynejr2 · November 2015

Too many games are too streamlined. It is a nice way to cut costs. I like having a lot of classes.

Nanulak · November 2015

Balance? Should everyone be able to scout the same? NO. Should everyone be able to break through a tank wall? NO. Should everyone build structures at the same frequency or ease? NO. It is this imbalance that make games fun and enjoyable. Choices have to matter. If you want to be the best at X, you may have to chose class Y in ream Z. Or you may choose to play a funner class in a realm you connect with even though it is not the best. If everything was equal / balanced then there would be not much of a choice. Back on topic, I love the huge variances of both the scout and shapeshifter classes. As an ALT aholic this game is going to cost me alot of sleep.

MarkJacobs · November 2015

TheUnscathed said:

Hey Mark, DAOC was one of my penultimate gaming experiences. Thanks and bravo there. Will this game have as deep of PVE as that game did, or is this going to be mostly a PVP experience. Also will there be any classes that have unique movement like the hovering vampyrs? Thanks!

There will be PvE in the form of crafting, The Depths, etc. but you can't level off killing NPCs.

As to classes that have unique movement, yep, check out the preview of our Scouts, and the upcoming stealth class trio reveal. The Scout trio is especially unique.

Thanks for your patronage of Dark Age of Camelot, it was a great game, made by a great team.

TimothyTierless said:

Piscore said:

To many classes... GG to balance this game.

Chaos is the best form of balance imo If the PVP has enough layers and situations I don't think we will see a "best class" but rather classes that are the best in situation X or Y or Z, and even then it can always be changing as the game evolves.

Agreed.

waynejr2 said:

Too many games are too streamlined. It is a nice way to cut costs. I like having a lot of classes.

Me too. I'm a confirmed alt-a-holic and proud of it.

Nanulak said:

Balance? Should everyone be able to scout the same? NO. Should everyone be able to break through a tank wall? NO. Should everyone build structures at the same frequency or ease? NO. It is this imbalance that make games fun and enjoyable. Choices have to matter. If you want to be the best at X, you may have to chose class Y in ream Z. Or you may choose to play a funner class in a realm you connect with even though it is not the best. If everything was equal / balanced then there would be not much of a choice. Back on topic, I love the huge variances of both the scout and shapeshifter classes. As an ALT aholic this game is going to cost me alot of sleep.

That's what I want to hear! Somebody else who will be spending too much time, trying stuff out.

Thanks all!

CSE_Jenesee · November 2015

st3v3b0 said:

I kicked in on this way back when during their KickStarter campaign. I wonder if I have access to anything?

Take a look at your tier and maybe you can play now! If you can't recall it , email us at support@citystateentertainment.com

Gyrus · November 2015

Balance:

It's not the classes... the skills... the chaos... the PvP and / or the best in X, Y or Z.

It's the players.

You and I can argue until hell freezes about how the scouts' stealth and backstab counters the fighters' charge and shield bash (or whatever you like) but it makes no difference at all if 99% of players play Chaos Doom Ravagers vs 1% playing Goodly Tree Guardians.

Even 60% / 40% will rapidly make the 40% feel like they are just target practice.

Sure, of that 40%, some will stay and fight against hopeless odds... (I know I have been one of them) but it's not a lot of fun for anyone long term.

That's the issue.

And with out a plan to address it aside from "we are sure it will work out" ... "we have three factions for balance!" there will be issues.

Is there any development on that yet? (I haven't been following closely)

JamesGoblin · November 2015

Gyrus said:

Balance:

It's not the classes... the skills... the chaos... the PvP and / or the best in X, Y or Z.

It's the players.

You and I can argue until hell freezes about how the scouts' stealth and backstab counters the fighters' charge and shield bash (or whatever you like) but it makes no difference at all if 99% of players play Chaos Doom Ravagers vs 1% playing Goodly Tree Guardians.

Even 60% / 40% will rapidly make the 40% feel like they are just target practice.

Sure, of that 40%, some will stay and fight against hopeless odds... (I know I have been one of them) but it's not a lot of fun for anyone long term.

That's the issue.

And with out a plan to address it aside from "we are sure it will work out" ... "we have three factions for balance!" there will be issues.

Is there any development on that yet? (I haven't been following closely)

Hopeless odds were always my fetish

Sevorin72 · November 2015

Is there any concerns, or ways to deal with cross realm spying? Or is it something that has no real fix?

JamesGoblin · November 2015

Sevorin72 said:

Is there any concerns, or ways to deal with cross realm spying? Or is it something that has no real fix?

Yes - on every server, players will be locked to the realm of their choice.

Gyrus · November 2015

JamesGoblin said:

Sevorin72 said:

Is there any concerns, or ways to deal with cross realm spying? Or is it something that has no real fix?

Yes - on every server, players will be locked to the realm of their choice.

It's answers like this that concern me.

Many, many games have suffered from cross realm spying before... so surely you know (or CSE knows) that this is not a solution?

1/ Multiboxing

2/ Multiple accounts

3/ Skype / Teamspeak etc

4/ Paying customers

5/ Metagaming

6/ Griefing

...etc

Maybe try looking up "Goon Swarm vs BOB" just for a start.

Tamanous · November 2015

Gyrus said:

Balance:

It's not the classes... the skills... the chaos... the PvP and / or the best in X, Y or Z.

It's the players.

You and I can argue until hell freezes about how the scouts' stealth and backstab counters the fighters' charge and shield bash (or whatever you like) but it makes no difference at all if 99% of players play Chaos Doom Ravagers vs 1% playing Goodly Tree Guardians.

Even 60% / 40% will rapidly make the 40% feel like they are just target practice.

Sure, of that 40%, some will stay and fight against hopeless odds... (I know I have been one of them) but it's not a lot of fun for anyone long term.

That's the issue.

And with out a plan to address it aside from "we are sure it will work out" ... "we have three factions for balance!" there will be issues.

Is there any development on that yet? (I haven't been following closely)

The classes are not balanced against each other on purpose. Each realm has it's classes build around that realms greater RvR strategy. Each class within each subset are different based on the strategic style of combat of each realm.

Arthurians, as a whole, support long ranged warfare and fortified defensive formations. Their classes collectively adhere to this strategy and they are balanced against this and not the other classes of other realms. Expect excellent long range sustained damage both aoe and single target and strong, sustained defense.

Vikings, as a whole, support skirmish, charge tactics attempting to overwhelm their enemies with heavy but often shorter ranged damage. Their strength and weaknesses are balanced against this RvR strategy and not against other realm's classes. Expect initial rush capacity and heavier front-ended damage. They excel in cold/snow/winter.

TDD, as a whole, support mobile, hit and run warfare. They are more about gorilla warfare and rush in for shorter bursts of damage and retreat to regroup using area denial tactics. Expect them to be annoying. All their classes are build upon this concept and not against the structures of other realms. They excel in forests.

This is why DAoC was so fun and worked. Issues with balance are mitigated by this strategy because a healer is supposed to get pwned by a class built to take them out. Support is expected to take dirt naps when not supported in return. Mages are supposed to be left naked to others when alone in the field. A melee fighter is supposed to be vulnerable to kiting if found alone.

All of this will very obviously lead to players taking the most solo-friendly class for solo RvR play. Other players will expect this and plan accordingly by either finding support or spec'ing/gearing for such fights. This means others can spec for siege warfare making them vulnerable to small group skirmish tactics ... but a small group can't siege a heavily fortified castle/town. Advancement is also based upon your contribution to your realm's RvR progression. You do not get solo xp for kills. So as a solo RvR player, siege player, crafter, scout, etc, you still advance through various play style options as it all contributes to realm progression. You don't need to worry about what your class can't do ... just do what it can do.

The main point to all of this is that the game is more about RvR strategy and diversity is required because balance reduces strategic choice and creates stalemates.

CU is currently in Alpha testing and gearing up for Beta (which will be where to test the class concepts out) early next year.

http://camelotunchained.com/v2/
http://camelot.gamepedia.com/Camelot_Unchained_Wiki

Gyrus · November 2015

Tamanous said:

Gyrus said:

Balance:

It's not the classes... the skills... the chaos... the PvP and / or the best in X, Y or Z.

It's the players.

You and I can argue until hell freezes about how the scouts' stealth and backstab counters the fighters' charge and shield bash (or whatever you like) but it makes no difference at all if 99% of players play Chaos Doom Ravagers vs 1% playing Goodly Tree Guardians.

Even 60% / 40% will rapidly make the 40% feel like they are just target practice.
...

The classes are not balanced against each other on purpose. Each realm has it's classes build around that realms greater RvR strategy. Each class within each subset are different based on the strategic style of combat of each realm.

...

The main point to all of this is that the game is more about RvR strategy and diversity is required because balance reduces strategic choice and creates stalemates.

I think you missed my point.

Class balance doesn't matter if there is no realm balance. That is what will make or break the game.

How does CSE propose to balance the realm populations? How do they plan to do that 24 hours a day?

YashaX · November 2015

I just hope they don't IP block Oceanic players.....

JamesGoblin · November 2015

Gyrus said:

JamesGoblin said:

Sevorin72 said:

Is there any concerns, or ways to deal with cross realm spying? Or is it something that has no real fix?

Yes - on every server, players will be locked to the realm of their choice.

It's answers like this that concern me.

Many, many games have suffered from cross realm spying before... so surely you know (or CSE knows) that this is not a solution?

1/ Multiboxing

2/ Multiple accounts

3/ Skype / Teamspeak etc

4/ Paying customers

5/ Metagaming

6/ Griefing

...etc

Maybe try looking up "Goon Swarm vs BOB" just for a start.

All that's both redundant and obvious (and a bit paranoic, I might add), but the question is - what are you suggesting?

Gyrus · November 2015

JamesGoblin said:

...
All that's both redundant and obvious (and a bit paranoic, I might add), but the question is - what are you suggesting?

Personally, I never worry about spies.

I have been a part of 3 MMOs where the concerns about spies ended up with the player base destroying itself (players not trusting other players is a pointless exercise - since we are all anonymous anyway - but the nastiness will drive people away.)

But as for my suggestion:
Simply accept that spying will happen and that imposing restrictions on players in game is not going to prevent out of game actions. I mean - what are you going to do? Put a routine in the game that monitors Skype usage?

Faction locks have been tried.

So, you simply have to design your game in a way that accounts for the fact there will be cross realm spying and sabotage. Make sure that when it happens it's not so damaging that players lose faith and quit.

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