I would go a step further and say how can a game built on surveys and data ever have a soul at all?
That's like buying a generic product vs buying something that is crafted by hand.
What we see for the most part today is games being crafted from data and a model/game engine that others have built.
Questions:
1) What is a "soul" of a game? Do you actually have a definition, or is it like the label "MMO" that there is lots of debate?
2) Does a game has to have a "soul" (by whatever definition) to be fun?
A soul is when someone really believes in what they are doing with a passion. An artist painting a portrait without compromise. I might say a soul is the passion and the body is just the husk. Most games are missing the passion. This is especially true of MMOs IMO.
A game is more fun when you are emotionally invested it. I would say it helps if there is a soul and not just a machine.
You might say old MMOs were machines, but they allowed a certain amount of freedom that allowed the players to give it a soul. I don't believe most MMOs now give that type of freedom to the players.
A soul is when someone really believes in what they are doing with a passion. An artist painting a portrait without compromise. I might say a soul is the passion and the body is just the husk. Most games are missing the passion. This is especially true of MMOs IMO.
A game is more fun when you are emotionally invested it. I would say it helps if there is a soul and not just a machine.
You might say old MMOs were machines, but they allowed a certain amount of freedom that allowed the players to give it a soul. I don't believe most MMOs now give that type of freedom to the players.
This is a useless definition. How do you know whether a dev "believes in what they are doing with a passion"? Even in f2p games, may be one of the dev is really passionate about making combat fun?
And when you say "most games are missing the passion" .. how do you know? Does Dishonored has "passion"? Does Mass Effect 2? Does Diablo 3?
Yes, a game is more fun when you are emotionally invested ... but that is the PLAYER's emotion, not the devs. The two are not the same. For example, tons of people invested emotions into WoW (obviously) or LoL .... do those games have souls?
"Soul" .. in my opinion .. is a totally useless concept. When someone here said a game has "soul", it basically means that they like it, or are pleasantly surprised by some elements of it.
May be we should just say why a game is fun. Why it is so (whether the devs have passion, or whether they use a formula) is a lot less relevant.
A soul is when someone really believes in what they are doing with a passion. An artist painting a portrait without compromise. I might say a soul is the passion and the body is just the husk. Most games are missing the passion. This is especially true of MMOs IMO.
A game is more fun when you are emotionally invested it. I would say it helps if there is a soul and not just a machine.
You might say old MMOs were machines, but they allowed a certain amount of freedom that allowed the players to give it a soul. I don't believe most MMOs now give that type of freedom to the players.
This is a useless definition. How do you know whether a dev "believes in what they are doing with a passion"? Even in f2p games, may be one of the dev is really passionate about making combat fun?
And when you say "most games are missing the passion" .. how do you know? Does Dishonored has "passion"? Does Mass Effect 2? Does Diablo 3?
Yes, a game is more fun when you are emotionally invested ... but that is the PLAYER's emotion, not the devs. The two are not the same. For example, tons of people invested emotions into WoW (obviously) or LoL .... do those games have souls?
"Soul" .. in my opinion .. is a totally useless concept. When someone here said a game has "soul", it basically means that they like it, or are pleasantly surprised by some elements of it.
May be we should just say why a game is fun. Why it is so (whether the devs have passion, or whether they use a formula) is a lot less relevant.
For one thing I would say a lot of games are more tame and forgiving today. That is a compromise right there. Most of that is based on data gathered to build the machine that will make the most money. It's not something lovingly hand crafted that only a few people might appreciate.
I don't include single player games in this category as much as MMOs. The games you listed I don't consider MMOs except for World of Warcraft.
I don't feel much when playing Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft in modern form from a story stand point. I felt a lot more when playing Diablo, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 2. That is just my personal feeling. I know their cinematics were hand crafted and not based on data collection.
I rarely spend money on MMORPG. I bought ESO. I bought GW2 cheap. I bought one power off DCUO. I don't spend money on cash shops.
For me cash shops that have anything worth buying usually ruins the game for me. I prefer things earned through gameplay and not wallets. I can deal with expansions because they have a base line value and equal ceiling to the advantage.
Well at first i would answer the question of HOW by pointing at one of the first NA businesses ....SOE but then they sold out and failed so not a good indicator.So then i could point at Blizzard who is going full tilt on cash shop gaming and making a ton doing it.Problem is i don't much like anything Blizzard delivers,so how do they achieve getting money from tight wads?
Answer is not at eleven,the answer is now>>>Popularity...numbers.Gamer's tend to flock towards numbers and popularity,i have lost track at how many times i see someone in a chat room somewhere asking others if a game is any good or not.I also see twitch viewers wanting in on the NEW popular games wanting to join their favorite streamers,soon as the streamers stop playing,they do as well.
It is amazing at how fast the numbers on these games drop after being perennial superstars a week prior.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People are going to buy what they feel is worth their money, extra money or not. Whether games are good or not is honestly subjective. Not every game is meant for every person. The main problem with gamers who have been gamer for a long period of time (myself included) is that many of us feel game quality is not as good as it used to be (or at least I feel many games fall under this category), but the truth is we had 1/10th of the size of options to choose from as we do now. So, the more options equals the less it feels like games are as good when in actuality, the game quality is still the same in the ratio of what we have been used to, its just more stuff is in the way of it.
It is amazing at how fast the numbers on these games drop after being perennial superstars a week prior.
It is just because people want variety in their entertainment ... i don't see it as surprising or amazing at all. It would be surprisingly if the whole population of gamers stuck on a single game forever.
You could say the same thing about anything in life. Humans are the same. You can't verify a human has a soul.
Nope .. that is why i think it is not very useful to talk about a "soul" in humans too.
It is much easier to talk about emotional responses which can be verify by fMRI type brain imaging.
It is to me as I can tell when something is made just to appeal to someone vs something that is made because the person who was making it fervently believed in what they were making.
Claiming a game has soul is probably up there as being one of the most idiotic things I've heard.
You could say the same thing about anything in life. Humans are the same. You can't verify a human has a soul.
Baseball is just a dumb sport where people hit balls and catch them in mitts, but the fans and players passion gives it life (soul).
The same is true of a game and someone who truly believes in their art gives it soul, passion, or whatever you feel comfortable calling it IMO.
Yep. It doesn't make it less idiotic. Also passion has nothing to do with soul. Developers can put a lot of passion into their game and it can still end up being soulless (i.e crap )
It is to me as I can tell when something is made just to appeal to someone vs something that is made because the person who was making it fervently believed in what they were making.
wait ... why are these two things mutually exclusive? Are the JOB of game devs to make stuff appealing to gamers?
Don't tell me it is a bad thing to me if devs want to make games that are appealing to me.
And if the game is fun (to me), why does it even matter?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This means that everything that's been in development for the last 6-7 years could not compete with what I've already been enjoying or anything else thats came out FREE.
Nothing is free.
If the game is f2p, has everything you like, but cash shop doesn't offer anything you need, will you spend money? bag space, costumes is a necessary evil. But i assume you won't buy those.......Why? Do you want the game to be pay to win before paying? If people won't buy they will offer more and more absurd stuff. By the time you complain about p2 win, it won't matter anymore.
If the game is b2p or subscription, how do you know you will like it without playing it? Well, most games are free from the start because of this.
in the last 3 years i spent about 600 euro in mmorpg, and played at least 2k hours in those games. My rule is that if i spend 1-4 weeks gaming and still like it, I will buy something. Mostly costumes or bag spaces, depending if i like a costume, but you usualy like at least one. It's like an enforced subscription fee to have an easier time and looking good as well. ( exception to this rule was vindictus which i believe the prices for those should be at least half, 30 euro for an untradable costume was to much, You needed to buy another one for a different character so, no thx)
Before these 3 years i didn't spend a dime because i didn't have a job. I enjoy the game more now since i know i'm helping myself (making things easier for me since i can't play as much) and the developer which in turn will provide more content.
On the downside, f2p players became just living npcs for me. They exist just to be used by paying customers. And i think that is true for developers and other players as well( even tough they won't admit it).
The problem I have with using the word soul in regard to gaming is it seems to only be used by gamers who like the game.
Look at the examples you've given. Humans can have a soul and be shitty people. Baseball players may have passion (soul) for the game but can be shitty players.
I've yet to come across a gamer claim a game to have soul but it be a shitty game. And that's why I find it idiotic. They seem to think if it has soul it's good, which is not always the case.
The problem I have with using the word soul in regard to gaming is it seems to only be used by gamers who like the game.
Look at the examples you've given. Humans can have a soul and be shitty people. Baseball players may have passion (soul) for the game but can be shitty players.
I've yet to come across a gamer claim a game to have soul but it be a shitty game. And that's why I find it idiotic. They seem to think if it has soul it's good, which is not always the case.
Wait, what were we talking about again, does anyone actually remember?
Well it's nose dived into a load of bollocks about the incorporeal side of gaming.
Weather something is good or not is a matter of personal preference. Often times things that are made with emotion and a single minded goal don't appeal to mass market. That doesn't mean it's not good. It also doesn't mean I would like it. For instance someone might have a single minded obsession to make a game about the carebears cartoon or cooking cupcakes. That wouldn't appeal to me, but it has the emotional investment for the niche markets it appeals to and it is something the person strongly believes in. To me this emotional investment makes the product better for people who purchase it even if it's a lesser audience.
Comments
A game is more fun when you are emotionally invested it. I would say it helps if there is a soul and not just a machine.
You might say old MMOs were machines, but they allowed a certain amount of freedom that allowed the players to give it a soul. I don't believe most MMOs now give that type of freedom to the players.
And when you say "most games are missing the passion" .. how do you know? Does Dishonored has "passion"? Does Mass Effect 2? Does Diablo 3?
Yes, a game is more fun when you are emotionally invested ... but that is the PLAYER's emotion, not the devs. The two are not the same. For example, tons of people invested emotions into WoW (obviously) or LoL .... do those games have souls?
"Soul" .. in my opinion .. is a totally useless concept. When someone here said a game has "soul", it basically means that they like it, or are pleasantly surprised by some elements of it.
May be we should just say why a game is fun. Why it is so (whether the devs have passion, or whether they use a formula) is a lot less relevant.
Or Diablo 3. Or Mass Effects. or Halos ... or even Destiny.
I don't include single player games in this category as much as MMOs. The games you listed I don't consider MMOs except for World of Warcraft.
I don't feel much when playing Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft in modern form from a story stand point. I felt a lot more when playing Diablo, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 2. That is just my personal feeling. I know their cinematics were hand crafted and not based on data collection.
For me cash shops that have anything worth buying usually ruins the game for me. I prefer things earned through gameplay and not wallets. I can deal with expansions because they have a base line value and equal ceiling to the advantage.
Baseball is just a dumb sport where people hit balls and catch them in mitts, but the fans and players passion gives it life (soul).
The same is true of a game and someone who truly believes in their art gives it soul, passion, or whatever you feel comfortable calling it IMO.
Nope .. that is why i think it is not very useful to talk about a "soul" in humans too.
It is much easier to talk about emotional responses which can be verify by fMRI type brain imaging.
Answer is not at eleven,the answer is now>>>Popularity...numbers.Gamer's tend to flock towards numbers and popularity,i have lost track at how many times i see someone in a chat room somewhere asking others if a game is any good or not.I also see twitch viewers wanting in on the NEW popular games wanting to join their favorite streamers,soon as the streamers stop playing,they do as well.
It is amazing at how fast the numbers on these games drop after being perennial superstars a week prior.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Don't tell me it is a bad thing to me if devs want to make games that are appealing to me.
And if the game is fun (to me), why does it even matter?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think we were talking about the original poster's efforts at making himself irrelevant to the gaming industry.
If the game is f2p, has everything you like, but cash shop doesn't offer anything you need, will you spend money?
bag space, costumes is a necessary evil. But i assume you won't buy those.......Why? Do you want the game to be pay to win before paying? If people won't buy they will offer more and more absurd stuff.
By the time you complain about p2 win, it won't matter anymore.
If the game is b2p or subscription, how do you know you will like it without playing it?
Well, most games are free from the start because of this.
in the last 3 years i spent about 600 euro in mmorpg, and played at least 2k hours in those games.
My rule is that if i spend 1-4 weeks gaming and still like it, I will buy something. Mostly costumes or bag spaces, depending if i like a costume, but you usualy like at least one.
It's like an enforced subscription fee to have an easier time and looking good as well.
( exception to this rule was vindictus which i believe the prices for those should be at least half, 30 euro for an untradable costume was to much, You needed to buy another one for a different character so, no thx)
Before these 3 years i didn't spend a dime because i didn't have a job.
I enjoy the game more now since i know i'm helping myself (making things easier for me since i can't play as much) and the developer which in turn will provide more content.
On the downside, f2p players became just living npcs for me. They exist just to be used by paying customers. And i think that is true for developers and other players as well( even tough they won't admit it).
Look at the examples you've given. Humans can have a soul and be shitty people. Baseball players may have passion (soul) for the game but can be shitty players.
I've yet to come across a gamer claim a game to have soul but it be a shitty game. And that's why I find it idiotic. They seem to think if it has soul it's good, which is not always the case.
Well it's nose dived into a load of bollocks about the incorporeal side of gaming.
And he is a cost to the devs that will be managed.
That's why I think people are just using the word to elevate their favourite game above ones they don't like.