I find the OP to be very vague in his statement. There are quite a number of 0.0 access points in EvE.
Some are heavily camped by alliances (NOT pirates) in order to guard access to what they regard as "their" space. This is the case of, for instance, A2-V27 in Querious, or RQH-MY in Pure Blind.
Some are heavily camped by alliances (again, NOT pirates) in order to secure contested territory long enough to allow for secure passage of friendly supply lines, and to blockade enemy supply lines. This is the case of systems such as EC-P8R in Pure Blind, or HED-GP in Catch.
Some are natural hotbeds of pirate activity, and are oft-camped by pirate entities (although in smaller proportions). This is notably the case for most access points to Syndicate and Providence, for example, or the P3EN-E system in Vale.
Finally, some access points are usually very quiet and uneventful. This is the case, for instance, of the 93PI-4 system in Pure Blind, amongst others.
The qualification of a 0.0 access point, its likeliness to be camped or not, and by who, evolves with time and political events. The wise traveller relies on solid intel and a high degree of awareness; sure, sometimes you'll get blown up into bits and pod-killed anyway, but that's life in 0.0.
Your best bet is to make some friends, it will greatly enhance your survival chances. 0.0 was never meant to be easy for anyone, much less for solo artists - if you insist on taking your chances, then you must learn to deal with the possible consequences.
On the issue of T2 BPO's :
Yes, there is a problem with the number of BPO's available in regard to the growing playerbase. Not only is the general playerbase growing (new customers), but the skilled playerbase is growing even faster compared to what it used to be. CCP has stated it will seed more BPO's, but I don't believe it will really fix the issue.
While I think it is okay for a player who has invested time and skills into an R&D career to eventually reap some benefits out of it, right now getting a BPO is akin to striking instant gold - some BPO's can easily be negotiated for tens of billions of ISK.
I wish CCP would revert to a much more reasonable system that reproduces the patent system : Initial seeding of new BPO's stays as it is now, and for a period of 4 to 6 months (or maybe a period indexed on the 'complexity' of the BPO), he and other same BPO holders have the exclusive ownership of that BPO. Thus they are able to reap the initial profit opportunities that all novelty items present. After that period, the BPO's are seeded (at the right price) on the open market for all to buy and use.
The value of novelty BPO's during the patent-holding time would slowly decay to its market seed value - BPO's wouldn't be the instant pot of gold anymore - yet the original owners would still make colossal profits from initial exclusive market rights, as players in EvE are suckers for novelty items, and would pay an arm and a leg for those.
In addition, seeding BPO's on the market once the patent-holding period is over would drive the price of those items down (more supply vs. stable demand) to slightly above cost value, which happens usually to be near the intrinsinc full insurance value (for ships).
Eve is all about freedom. THe 'bottleneck' effect is simply a social/poltical event that is changing the world of Eve. First off my POS is not at all hard to keep supplied, and I have only experienced a small number of pirates on the way to it. (and no I wont say where it is ). Now about your POS problem. First off if your using it for an industrial perspective (IE lots of refining, moon mining, etc) try doing convoys, intel (getting an alt into local pirate corps and seeing where camps are), or other ways. Now if your POS is there for the location, a Small POS would be sutable and easy to maintane. SImply have corp members grab some supplies from empire on their way to POS. They should make it 99% of time if they have bookmarks, wcs, nanofibers, and pay attention.
I agree with the blueprints however, there needs to be some way for others to gain access to these kinds of things.
If EVE was about freedom, then we wouldn't need gates to jump from system to system. We'd simply jump from however far out we needed to be, and jump in wherever we wanted to be.
If we are all about freedom, then that is what should be pursued. If we could do that, gate camping will go away.
But gate campers and twinks don't like freedom. They like constraints. Not only that, but they like constraints that are easy for them to deal with, but hard for others.
Power players don't like EVE because of its freedoms. Power players like EVE because of the constraints.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 If EVE was about freedom, then we wouldn't need gates to jump from system to system. We'd simply jump from however far out we needed to be, and jump in wherever we wanted to be. If we are all about freedom, then that is what should be pursued. If we could do that, gate camping will go away. But gate campers and twinks don't like freedom. They like constraints. Not only that, but they like constraints that are easy for them to deal with, but hard for others. Power players don't like EVE because of its freedoms. Power players like EVE because of the constraints.
Jumping exactly where you want to be isnt freedom, its Disneyland.
Eve isnt a theme park, its a living universe that can be AFFECTED, people can actually close routes and affect trade, they can blockade their enemies and force them to leave, or force them to stay out.
Basically what carebears want is a contradiction.
"I want a living breathing universe but I dont want to be affected by other players"
If you're not affected by others, then its not a dynamic universe, its just a theme park like wow where nobody can affect anybody else in any way shape or form. You just go all all the rides they design for you, instanced just for you, all the NPC's belong to you.
But thats not Eve. Eve is a PVP game, if you can't handle being affected by others, then a player controlled universe is not for you, you want a PVE game where you only affect the programmed objects in the game, so that the players are unable to "grief" each other as you call it.
Anyway this game is not for everybody, I question how anybody can play this game for 2 years and just NOW start whining about gatecamps. They are just a mechanic of the game, if you can't get past a gatecamp then maybe the area is off-limits to you, until you bring in a force to clear them out.
The campers work together in teams to affect the game, you can work in a team to also affect the game.
But carebears dont like to work in teams, because something might drop a +5 fire sword and the carebear might not be able to win the roll and they would have a crying fit.
Carebears primarily have a social disfunction that makes it painful to deal with OTHERS. They can fight a NPC but they won't fight a living breathing player. They camp NPC's all day long, but they whine about players camping gates all day long. THe typical Eve carebear has a wallet with BILLIONS of isk, but they get upset when they lose a frigate costing 200k.
So its not about money, or griefing, or not wanting to fight.
Carebearism is a social disfunction and nothing else.
If you talk to almost any pirate, you can barely get them to shut up, they will hold a conversation in local for hours, if you ask them for advice they will talk to you for hours, they are socially healthy human beings who enjoy contact with other players, be it fighting them, talking with them or robbing them.
Every single PVP player I've met has been a socially well adjusted and honorable being.
Its the carebears who sit in empire and whine about every little loss who are these socially inept little trolls that can't BEAR the thought of being AFFECTED by another player, its this personal EGOTISM like they are too good to rub elbows with other players.
Yes, in Eve the players affect each other. Thats what makes it special. Without that it would be just another regular MMO, like Everquest in space.
Jumping exactly where you want to be isnt freedom, its Disneyland.
Eve isnt a theme park, its a living universe that can be AFFECTED, people can actually close routes and affect trade, they can blockade their enemies and force them to leave, or force them to stay out.
Basically what carebears want is a contradiction.
"I want a living breathing universe but I dont want to be affected by other players"
If you're not affected by others, then its not a dynamic universe, its just a theme park like wow where nobody can affect anybody else in any way shape or form. You just go all all the rides they design for you, instanced just for you, all the NPC's belong to you.
But thats not Eve. Eve is a PVP game, if you can't handle being affected by others, then a player controlled universe is not for you, you want a PVE game where you only affect the programmed objects in the game, so that the players are unable to "grief" each other as you call it.
Anyway this game is not for everybody, I question how anybody can play this game for 2 years and just NOW start whining about gatecamps. They are just a mechanic of the game, if you can't get past a gatecamp then maybe the area is off-limits to you, until you bring in a force to clear them out.
The campers work together in teams to affect the game, you can work in a team to also affect the game.
But carebears dont like to work in teams, because something might drop a +5 fire sword and the carebear might not be able to win the roll and they would have a crying fit.
Carebears primarily have a social disfunction that makes it painful to deal with OTHERS. They can fight a NPC but they won't fight a living breathing player. They camp NPC's all day long, but they whine about players camping gates all day long. THe typical Eve carebear has a wallet with BILLIONS of isk, but they get upset when they lose a frigate costing 200k.
So its not about money, or griefing, or not wanting to fight.
Carebearism is a social disfunction and nothing else.
If you talk to almost any pirate, you can barely get them to shut up, they will hold a conversation in local for hours, if you ask them for advice they will talk to you for hours, they are socially healthy human beings who enjoy contact with other players, be it fighting them, talking with them or robbing them.
Every single PVP player I've met has been a socially well adjusted and honorable being.
Its the carebears who sit in empire and whine about every little loss who are these socially inept little trolls that can't BEAR the thought of being AFFECTED by another player, its this personal EGOTISM like they are too good to rub elbows with other players.
Yes, in Eve the players affect each other. Thats what makes it special. Without that it would be just another regular MMO, like Everquest in space.
^^ Here here!! ^^
I could try and put it better than that, but I don't think I would succeed.
We can agree to disagree, or we can bicker constantly... either way, I'm right. SobaKai.com There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 If EVE was about freedom, then we wouldn't need gates to jump from system to system. We'd simply jump from however far out we needed to be, and jump in wherever we wanted to be. If we are all about freedom, then that is what should be pursued. If we could do that, gate camping will go away. But gate campers and twinks don't like freedom. They like constraints. Not only that, but they like constraints that are easy for them to deal with, but hard for others. Power players don't like EVE because of its freedoms. Power players like EVE because of the constraints.
Jumping exactly where you want to be isnt freedom, its Disneyland.
Eve isnt a theme park, its a living universe that can be AFFECTED, people can actually close routes and affect trade, they can blockade their enemies and force them to leave, or force them to stay out.
Basically what carebears want is a contradiction.
"I want a living breathing universe but I dont want to be affected by other players"
If you're not affected by others, then its not a dynamic universe, its just a theme park like wow where nobody can affect anybody else in any way shape or form. You just go all all the rides they design for you, instanced just for you, all the NPC's belong to you.
But thats not Eve. Eve is a PVP game, if you can't handle being affected by others, then a player controlled universe is not for you, you want a PVE game where you only affect the programmed objects in the game, so that the players are unable to "grief" each other as you call it.
Anyway this game is not for everybody, I question how anybody can play this game for 2 years and just NOW start whining about gatecamps. They are just a mechanic of the game, if you can't get past a gatecamp then maybe the area is off-limits to you, until you bring in a force to clear them out.
The campers work together in teams to affect the game, you can work in a team to also affect the game.
But carebears dont like to work in teams, because something might drop a +5 fire sword and the carebear might not be able to win the roll and they would have a crying fit.
Carebears primarily have a social disfunction that makes it painful to deal with OTHERS. They can fight a NPC but they won't fight a living breathing player. They camp NPC's all day long, but they whine about players camping gates all day long. THe typical Eve carebear has a wallet with BILLIONS of isk, but they get upset when they lose a frigate costing 200k.
So its not about money, or griefing, or not wanting to fight.
Carebearism is a social disfunction and nothing else.
If you talk to almost any pirate, you can barely get them to shut up, they will hold a conversation in local for hours, if you ask them for advice they will talk to you for hours, they are socially healthy human beings who enjoy contact with other players, be it fighting them, talking with them or robbing them.
Every single PVP player I've met has been a socially well adjusted and honorable being.
Its the carebears who sit in empire and whine about every little loss who are these socially inept little trolls that can't BEAR the thought of being AFFECTED by another player, its this personal EGOTISM like they are too good to rub elbows with other players.
Yes, in Eve the players affect each other. Thats what makes it special. Without that it would be just another regular MMO, like Everquest in space.
Look man, if you had your way, how would you want us to play? It ain't the OP that has a problem with EVE. It seems you have got the problem with EVE, because you are the one who feels under attack by these players you don't like, and read into their minds these secret motives.
But let me tell you my situation, and maybe you'll understand why I'm not running in losec.
I'm three weeks out of the box, I've got a 1 million ISK destroyer, an industrial ship, a bank account of 3 million, and I'm saving for a cruiser. I don't have "billions of ISK." I have a bit of working capital that I am using to gain more. And if I lose it, I'm put that much further back.
Yeah I gab it up in corp, racechannel, and local. But I'll just let the ones with negative security ratings just be. Not because I'm some antisocial dweeb with confidence issues like you paint anyone who isn't rushing into losec, but because I can't afford to have the dude with a 100,000,000 ISK bounty and a battlecruiser follow me around and give me a hard time.
And seeing how this game evokes these strong feelings from folk like you, that's a real concern. The Bartle killer folk are bored, and looking for something to get POed about so they'll have a war to fight. If it were true what everyone says about the big battles and all, then they'd have things to do. But we are in a period, from what I can see, of a "non-aggression pact" of sorts between alliances.
There is so much uncertainty with Kali, T3, and all those other issues on the horizon, that a lot of the big dogs would rather "live and let live" so they can mine, and place themselves in a position to be successful. A lot of the small fry are doing the same thing.
So I do agent missions to aid my small corp's ratings, and sell the goods I get as bonuses on trade runs. I buy low, and sell high.
But if I go rushing gates with my 10 man corp where the most advanced player is one month old, are you going to replace our working capital? Didn't think so. Nor do I think that its respectable to keep on rushing gates in noobie frigs we get from Pend Insurance, because we have no more ISK to buy anything else.
What pisses off the PvP folk the most is the fact that I'm free to not play the game they want me to play. I'm free to stay in highsec and build to their level.
If we like things the way that they are, I've got no problem with that. But then don't complain that you all are bored, because I'm not. I'll just stay in Ourlaset, and Jita.
And from the look of the number of people there, and the number of folk I talk to, I ain't alone.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Nobody is telling you to play the game my way, just saying that everybody AFFECTS each other in this game.
Be that crime, piracy, the market, builders selling you ships, miners mining to sell minerals to builders, its all connected to each other.
I am making you aware that whether you know it or not, you are part of a food chain, we ALL are part of the food chain.
For every gang of thugs who hunt and kill you, there are two more gangs of thugs hunting and killing them.
The cycle of mining, building, transporting, destroying, it is like a ballet, like a SPACE OPERA with each person doing their own dance.
I will tell you the secret to enjoying Eve. The secret to enjoying Eve is to let go of the concept that Bigger is Better. Forget everything you learned in other games. The natural progression is NOT : Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, BC, Battleship, at which point you are ready to take your BS into 0.0 and pwn ppl. Thats not how it works.
Here the progression is just the opposite. You use WHAT YOU CAN EASILY AFFORD TO LOSE.
Until such time that you become a Billionaire, a BS is ONLY. FOR. RATTING.
You work your way up to a BS until you can comfortably do level 4's. When you get bored of doing missions, you take the smallest cheapest ship into lowsec, and you either 1) Pirate 2) Hunt pirates 3) Kill rats 4) Ninjamine 5) Or kill anybody you run across.
Right now with your bank account, you can afford to buy a tackler, take it into lowsec, try your hand at piracy, or do a little freelance mercenary work protecting miners in lowsec from pirates.
Me personally, I'm not a pirate, I just don't have the personality for it, but I can sure as hell hire myself out for protection, or hauling, or any other jobs that people want done, and they pay me a ton of cash too, talkin like 3 mil an hour for hauling stuff around in lowsec, with just a cheap hauler that costs like 900k, and is insured so I lose almost nothing.
And if I lose a ship, so what?
The key to enjoying eve is risk management.
Control what you plan to lose. If you undock with something, consider it lost.
Later on you will be able to afford losing cruisers and battleships, but for now only cheap frigates with cheap modules.
Originally posted by -daikatana- Originally posted by Kurir I came to Eve like most of the original subscribers, when EA announced they were going to close EnB we started coming over in droves. Initially the game was amazing and I was caught up in the vast playing area and the stunning visuals, but beyond the surface Eve is fundamentally flawed, so long as actions without consequences are condoned and fostered by CCP this game will slowly sink into the toilet. Most changes in Eve are knee-jerk reactions to circumstances that they themselves create, or then choose to ignore if the vocal few don't want CCP to interrupt the growing gank fest that Eve is turning into. Travel should be secure, period. The jump gates didn't create themselves, the vast expenditure that was required to place them in the first place would necessitate that the governments that placed them would want to ensure that both the gates were protected and the ability to use them would be fostered. Hence you would have forces and equipment located at them to ensure it, meaning that you shouldn't be able to withstand the punishment that these security measures would deal out IE: No tanking gate guns. Eliminate multiple characters per account, you want the role of an "Honorable" pirate then live with the circumstances you've created, by that I mean real difficulties for moving the stolen merchandise you acquire. Anything taken by piracy should be flagged and not able to be fenced as easily as it is now. CCP seems to be able to create the "Lawless" side of the universe, its time they started creating the Lawful side to balance things out.
Actually, you are assuming that no pirate would pay an extra $12-$15 US per month to fence his goods through a tradeskill oriented alt on another account.
Anyway, flagging loot as stolen so it could not be sold would be totally against the PvP aspect of EVE. And if it were flagged as stolen but still tradeable who would even care?
Now for what I considered to be the good part of your post...untankable defenses around the gates. I think that would be a potential soluion to the problem of a 4-5 players at a time being able to hold a constellation. All I'm hoping for is some way to limit corps to the belts/moons they can actually defend rather than the 20-40 systems sitting behind the one gate they can defend.
Well said, on the issue with gates, I always thought gates is always a way for CCP to concentrate players together, imagine if you can jump in from a system anywhere, it will be a lot harder to control an area and find players to pvp or so to speak, so I don't think this will change any time soon. I mean you got npc rats camping the gate, I think that tells you about something. Is this stupid? Yeah, but I doubt ccp will do anything about it. In terms of territory control, etc I still think Dark Age of Camelot does a fantastic job at it.
The end result for CCP is they don't get my subscription fees anymore, plain and simple. I know none of you give a rip so thats that, the only statement that I can make to CCP is to withold my money, I get to keep it and they don't get to have it, period. I had more to say but why give the flamers and chop shop critics more to work with.
If you don't like it, you don't have to play the game, simple as that. Not a flame, not n00b calling, just a simple statement. I've done it multiple times in games myself.
I would also like to add that although gate camping is annoying for those on the receiving end (and some on the giving end while they wait), it really is the only feasible way to catch people. Since you can't stop them at mid-warp and you can't be sure if they'll go to an asteroid belt/station, camping a chokepoint gate or a frequently-travelled gate is the better way of finding people. Not the best solution, but it's either that or no PvP or minimal PvP at best.
Gate camping is natural, you find that in EVERY single game, in DAOC, in WoW, and ooooh talk about DAOC, i was playing in Bors as an albion, and ooooh the irony of 150 mids blocking 16 albs from passing the albs mile gate, and what ? they were so proud of it.
in WoW it gets worse, specially in AV, where if you get stuck in your base, you're done for, it only takes time before the other race finishes the game.
In EVE though you can play around it, i've NEVER EVER in my life got ganked passing 0.0 space, i've actually got passed 15 ships guarding an entrance to 0.0 with my BATTLESHIPS, yes slow ass moving and turning but i made it, and now i'm training for interdictors so i can make it easily to 0.0 space without any trouble.
also there are alot of ways to know if there are gate campers or not, ask in the local system, check the map for the number of players, get to know the frequent systems being camped and where, all of these things come from playing the game, not coming here and whine about being ganked in a noob ship with a skilless char by people with 1 year PVP experience.
seriously, whining does no good, there are ALOT of ways to avoid being ganked anywhere, just avoid it, ask before you enter, check the map, get a very fast ship ( interceptor, interdictor or the fast normal frigates ) fit in some nanofibers on these ships and talk to me if you ever get ganked warping to a place.
Originally posted by ob1sr in WoW it gets worse, specially in AV, where if you get stuck in your base, you're done for, it only takes time before the other race finishes the game. .......... seriously, whining does no good, there are ALOT of ways to avoid being ganked anywhere, just avoid it, ask before you enter, check the map, get a very fast ship ( interceptor, interdictor or the fast normal frigates ) fit in some nanofibers on these ships and talk to me if you ever get ganked warping to a place. done.
I haven't played DAOC but as far as WoW goes: A) AV is node-capture...if you get caught in your base its because your side has been losing ground for the last hour. Camping does not help you in any of the battlegrounds against a competitive group because they ALL respawn at the same place while you have to have a defense posted elsewhere or a single rogue sneaks by to "cap" your flag/nodes. If you're successfully camping their graveyard it means the BG was a blowout anyway. C) You shoulda played before battlegrounds when PvP was basically EVE with much lower death penalties (too low to be honest) and NO CAMPING. Yes, in WoW because there was no real place that absolutely everyone had to be (that they didn't show up to in groups of 20-40 or hundreds in the case of IF or Ogrimmar) because there were at least 2-3 ways into most places and you could always jump along in griffins, zepplins, boats etc. Ever wonder why PvPers never camped boats even though they were choke-points in that game? Because logically, the boats were defended against small groups by faction NPCs and anyone paying attention could jump off and swim underwater to shore and even after you do succeed, it just made a mage sitting in Ironforge and Darnassus a lot of money from teleports.
PvP in pre-battlegrounds WoW actually took place distributed throughout the world unlike EVE where it takes place in exactly the same place every time because it gives a huge advantage to the camping player(s). Unless, of course, the campers want to buy us all a gig of RAM, a 3ghz processor, and a 1meg DSL connection so we can load the next system (and all the jetcans they have "forgotten" to pick up) sometime under 1-minute it takes with a minimum spec system. Until people can travel they simply won't in anything worth killing and you can be all alone there in your territory harassing the local Angels and 'roids content with your uber-blobing skills while 5 people at a time can hold the entire area against anything short of another uber-blob which causes a rely nice lagspike to even the field when they show up.
Now for the second paragraph: You know...there are a lot of ways to avoid getting ganked, the most effective one is NOT TO GO THERE, which is killing the PvP experience in EVE and overloading the carebear centers like Jita. When newbs can actually make it to a field of Jasper in their mining frig or destroyer, then you'll see them taking the risk of mining in low-sec even though they are killed quite often by roving pirates and alliance defenses. Instead, they sit in 1.0sec waiting for that veldspar to respawn and eventually leave saying that the game sucks. Everyone says its risk vs. reward in EVE but whines when people don't take the ridiculous risk for mediocre reward as a solo/small-corp player in 0sec. In regards to making it in a battleship: congrats man, not many people can say that....now try it in a mining barge that moves at half the speed of smell, turns like...well...a barge, and can't fit a decent defense.
Good points in this thread. Id like to add mine. The point about "live fast, live dangerous" is a good one, but its lacking perspective from other side - trader side. Im a miner/trader, I like to mine stuff and process it, make some weapons, ammo, sell materials, make a profit, etc. My style is as much important as your style (PvPer/ganker/Pirate). So why is that my style has to be limited to a point where I HAVE to join a big corp/alliance to be protected in order to mine the juicy ore? Why do I have to pay the price and not you? Why not make all pirates unable to buy anything, anywhere but their home-station? You wouldnt like that, would you?
I have played this game for 2 months now, and im getting to a point where mining in 0.5-0.6 is not as profitable lets face it, mining plagio with occasional omber on mining barge 3 is not too profitable. Plus theres still that danger of RATs attacking me, so theres still some danger to it. But now I cant really go to anywhere below 0.5 becuase there are some pirates there that have nothing to do but blow my ship up. And what do pirates lose? Well, they cant get into 0.5 and up systems because concord will attack them. Big deal. All the juice is below 0.4 and if someone really wanted to buy something in 0.5 and above, well, just have an alt do it for ya.
To make my point short. Eve is forcing PvP style gameplay onto everyone, while limiting pure economical development (traders, miners, haulers, junkies...). Everyone who wants to actually make big buck is Forced to either join an alliance or pick up omber scraps in 0.6.
Im in a small corp, we are a small but friendly bunch. We do not belong into an alliance so if we decide to mine something in 0.0, we are screwed becuase if 2-3 guys are mining, we only get about 2-3 other guys who can guard us. For now, im still fairly satisfied with mining kernite/omber. But once I outgrow that, Im not sure i will be able to continue playing if i cant mine in 0.4 and below zones. PC Pirating should be either limited or design a new system to compensate open PvP to some level. For example a protectorate: a miner can sign up for a protectorate with a local station (NPC or PC) and pay 10% of all income generated from that system but if that person is attacked, NPC ships jump to help immediately.
I must say that I agree with daikatana. With as many people log in to the servers, the game is still underpopulated. People need to be fighting over scarce resources but the fact is that resources far exceed the players that can use them. Yes, there are "better" areas of 0.0 for people to fight over but the difference isn't worth it enough to parties involved. There does need to be a better reason to fight than just petty politics. That's not to say that isn't a reason for a large portion of historical wars but an even bigger one is the drive for strategic resources. I mean I would guess on average that there are more systems in 0.0 than players. The galaxy is simply too big for wars to mean much of anything. I love the depth, complexity, and realism of Eve but I still fawn over other PvP implementations such as castle wars and castle ownership in Lineage 2 (though I refuse to grid my way far enough to be able to try it out). It just seems so much more...meaningful.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Good points in this thread. Id like to add mine. The point about "live fast, live dangerous" is a good one, but its lacking perspective from other side - trader side. Im a miner/trader, I like to mine stuff and process it, make some weapons, ammo, sell materials, make a profit, etc. My style is as much important as your style (PvPer/ganker/Pirate). So why is that my style has to be limited to a point where I HAVE to join a big corp/alliance to be protected in order to mine the juicy ore? Why do I have to pay the price and not you? Why not make all pirates unable to buy anything, anywhere but their home-station? You wouldnt like that, would you?I have played this game for 2 months now, and im getting to a point where mining in 0.5-0.6 is not as profitable lets face it, mining plagio with occasional omber on mining barge 3 is not too profitable. Plus theres still that danger of RATs attacking me, so theres still some danger to it. But now I cant really go to anywhere below 0.5 becuase there are some pirates there that have nothing to do but blow my ship up. And what do pirates lose? Well, they cant get into 0.5 and up systems because concord will attack them. Big deal. All the juice is below 0.4 and if someone really wanted to buy something in 0.5 and above, well, just have an alt do it for ya.To make my point short. Eve is forcing PvP style gameplay onto everyone, while limiting pure economical development (traders, miners, haulers, junkies...). Everyone who wants to actually make big buck is Forced to either join an alliance or pick up omber scraps in 0.6. Im in a small corp, we are a small but friendly bunch. We do not belong into an alliance so if we decide to mine something in 0.0, we are screwed becuase if 2-3 guys are mining, we only get about 2-3 other guys who can guard us. For now, im still fairly satisfied with mining kernite/omber. But once I outgrow that, Im not sure i will be able to continue playing if i cant mine in 0.4 and below zones. PC Pirating should be either limited or design a new system to compensate open PvP to some level. For example a protectorate: a miner can sign up for a protectorate with a local station (NPC or PC) and pay 10% of all income generated from that system but if that person is attacked, NPC ships jump to help immediately.Just my thought on this issue
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
Originally posted by Urza123 Originally posted by jimmyman99 Good points in this thread. Id like to add mine. The point about "live fast, live dangerous" is a good one, but its lacking perspective from other side - trader side. Im a miner/trader, I like to mine stuff and process it, make some weapons, ammo, sell materials, make a profit, etc. My style is as much important as your style (PvPer/ganker/Pirate). So why is that my style has to be limited to a point where I HAVE to join a big corp/alliance to be protected in order to mine the juicy ore? Why do I have to pay the price and not you? Why not make all pirates unable to buy anything, anywhere but their home-station? You wouldnt like that, would you?I have played this game for 2 months now, and im getting to a point where mining in 0.5-0.6 is not as profitable lets face it, mining plagio with occasional omber on mining barge 3 is not too profitable. Plus theres still that danger of RATs attacking me, so theres still some danger to it. But now I cant really go to anywhere below 0.5 becuase there are some pirates there that have nothing to do but blow my ship up. And what do pirates lose? Well, they cant get into 0.5 and up systems because concord will attack them. Big deal. All the juice is below 0.4 and if someone really wanted to buy something in 0.5 and above, well, just have an alt do it for ya.To make my point short. Eve is forcing PvP style gameplay onto everyone, while limiting pure economical development (traders, miners, haulers, junkies...). Everyone who wants to actually make big buck is Forced to either join an alliance or pick up omber scraps in 0.6. Im in a small corp, we are a small but friendly bunch. We do not belong into an alliance so if we decide to mine something in 0.0, we are screwed becuase if 2-3 guys are mining, we only get about 2-3 other guys who can guard us. For now, im still fairly satisfied with mining kernite/omber. But once I outgrow that, Im not sure i will be able to continue playing if i cant mine in 0.4 and below zones. PC Pirating should be either limited or design a new system to compensate open PvP to some level. For example a protectorate: a miner can sign up for a protectorate with a local station (NPC or PC) and pay 10% of all income generated from that system but if that person is attacked, NPC ships jump to help immediately.Just my thought on this issue
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
I agree with you. WHat i was whining about is not the fact that PvP exists or that it is open PvP, what i wanted to point out is that PvP takes precedence over economic development. U r right, Eve is all about PvP, but its also all about player run market and corporations (regardless of their size). I consider Eve PvP and economical side to be of equal importance, meaning both should have equal share of gameplay and not be overely restricted. Currently, Pirating is restricted just a tiny bit in a way that pirates get attacked in 0.5 areas. But as i stated above, those areas can be considered noob areas, and all the cream is in the lower speced systems. Traders, however, are pretty much restricted to higher level zones, noob zones mostly. I understand what u r saying, i dont want Eve to become PvE or even consentual PvP game. But Id realy love to see some PvP balancing for all those people who dont feel like reading mindless chatter in large corp/alliance channels but who rather to preffer smaller family-style corps or life as a loner. Im not saying i should have all freedom to mine in 0.0 without any danger. All im saying, give us a chance to survive running through 0.4 without some asshole pirate blowing my hsip to heavens with NO real reward for that pirate (almost happend yesterday, THANK GOD i was in a shuttle, and not my badger II).
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by Urza123 Originally posted by jimmyman99 Good points in this thread. Id like to add mine. The point about "live fast, live dangerous" is a good one, but its lacking perspective from other side - trader side. Im a miner/trader, I like to mine stuff and process it, make some weapons, ammo, sell materials, make a profit, etc. My style is as much important as your style (PvPer/ganker/Pirate). So why is that my style has to be limited to a point where I HAVE to join a big corp/alliance to be protected in order to mine the juicy ore? Why do I have to pay the price and not you? Why not make all pirates unable to buy anything, anywhere but their home-station? You wouldnt like that, would you?I have played this game for 2 months now, and im getting to a point where mining in 0.5-0.6 is not as profitable lets face it, mining plagio with occasional omber on mining barge 3 is not too profitable. Plus theres still that danger of RATs attacking me, so theres still some danger to it. But now I cant really go to anywhere below 0.5 becuase there are some pirates there that have nothing to do but blow my ship up. And what do pirates lose? Well, they cant get into 0.5 and up systems because concord will attack them. Big deal. All the juice is below 0.4 and if someone really wanted to buy something in 0.5 and above, well, just have an alt do it for ya.To make my point short. Eve is forcing PvP style gameplay onto everyone, while limiting pure economical development (traders, miners, haulers, junkies...). Everyone who wants to actually make big buck is Forced to either join an alliance or pick up omber scraps in 0.6. Im in a small corp, we are a small but friendly bunch. We do not belong into an alliance so if we decide to mine something in 0.0, we are screwed becuase if 2-3 guys are mining, we only get about 2-3 other guys who can guard us. For now, im still fairly satisfied with mining kernite/omber. But once I outgrow that, Im not sure i will be able to continue playing if i cant mine in 0.4 and below zones. PC Pirating should be either limited or design a new system to compensate open PvP to some level. For example a protectorate: a miner can sign up for a protectorate with a local station (NPC or PC) and pay 10% of all income generated from that system but if that person is attacked, NPC ships jump to help immediately.Just my thought on this issue
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
I agree with you. WHat i was whining about is not the fact that PvP exists or that it is open PvP, what i wanted to point out is that PvP takes precedence over economic development. U r right, Eve is all about PvP, but its also all about player run market and corporations (regardless of their size). I consider Eve PvP and economical side to be of equal importance, meaning both should have equal share of gameplay and not be overely restricted. Currently, Pirating is restricted just a tiny bit in a way that pirates get attacked in 0.5 areas. But as i stated above, those areas can be considered noob areas, and all the cream is in the lower speced systems. Traders, however, are pretty much restricted to higher level zones, noob zones mostly. I understand what u r saying, i dont want Eve to become PvE or even consentual PvP game. But Id realy love to see some PvP balancing for all those people who dont feel like reading mindless chatter in large corp/alliance channels but who rather to preffer smaller family-style corps or life as a loner. Im not saying i should have all freedom to mine in 0.0 without any danger. All im saying, give us a chance to survive running through 0.4 without some asshole pirate blowing my hsip to heavens with NO real reward for that pirate (almost happend yesterday, THANK GOD i was in a shuttle, and not my badger II).
I understand your position, and when I was starting out in EVE I felt much the same way. However, you have to draw a line somewhere. If it is not .4 and lower then they will have to make it .3 and lower or .2 and lower but every single time there will be people who want more and more and just keep complaining. (I am not refering to you in this case). However it is much like you stated, you were going though .4 and nearly got blown up; that is one side of the medal, however lets take a look at the other side, you go though and get blown up and loose a ship. You need a replacement, that generates demand on minerals, materials, crafters etc. that is what feeds other miners and traders like your self. That is the very interesting thing in EVE is that although you get hurt a lot by pirates they are the ones that provide you with the demand on the goods that you deal. So lets say we move FFA kill zone to .2 from .4, I can granatee you that in a long run you will be loosing money, because people will not be loosing as much stuff and earning a lot more, that alone will cause inflation and market over-saturation.
So when it comes to a .4 and below kill zone I think it is optimal solution, because it has worked for some time now and it keeps market going.
However here is some advice for how NOT to get killed while traveling in .4 - .1 space and how to run a mining op with 4 - 6 people in lower sec space.
1. Bookmarks - get them, buy them make them. If you will check on escrow people sell bookmarks that cover entire regions of space. They are gate to gate bookmarks so if you have to travel somewhere use them. Note that, aside from the fact that they are 99% safe travel you will also travel much faster, for example with bookmarks you can travel as much as 20 systems in 10 - 15 minutes.
2. If you know you are going somewhere in a slower ship, warp core stabelizers are always a good idea. Taking your hauler somewhere? Good for you, dont forget warp core stabelizers, you have a little less space? Well, you can always take the risk.
3. Unless you are a pro-miner and can use teir 3 mining barge DONT use them unless part of a huge mining op. If you are mining with a bunch of friends 3 -6 people get 6 BS out there. Best mining BS is a Armageddon, I believe. I know some people are going to say that they spent a lot of time doing that stuff, well I am sorry, but if you would have done the math first you would see that unless u got a lot of high lvl skills at 5 mining with 8 mining lasers is better then 1 or 2 strip miners.
4. While mining keep your ships aligned to location where you have to warp to if someone warps in.
5. Keep your eye on a local channel for low sec people, or people from the well known pirate corps.
6. Map is your friend learn how to use all the options, there are a lot of options that allow you to see how many ships were destoyed in what systems, how many people were podded, how many people went though that zone. Galaxy is huge however finding a nice spot to mine in lower sec space can be pritty hard.
Definitely good advice, Urza, thank you. I understand your position and I agree with it. The thing what drives me (at times) paranoid is that im flying on the edge. If (god forbid) i lost my ship, that would be it. I wouldnt be able to get back on track. Id have to start with a frig again, at best i could buy the next level frig, but i wouldnt be able to buy my badger 2 or if i ever manage to raise enough money - mining barge. Im still a rookie, and will probly stay like that for at least a year or two - i dont play Eve often and not for long. What really ticked me off is a bunch of gatecampers the other day. I wasnt talking to them, i wasnt threatening to them, there was NO point or NO reward whatsoever to killing me. And if they did manage to do that while iwas in badger2, that would be it for me because I doubt id go through frig-mining sessions again. Thats the single point i was trying to make - Eve has setup this game so that people can actually MAKE other people leave the game. Its not like WoW, where even Open PvP doesnt result in more then couple of coin in repairs, not that I want Eve to be like wow. But im really really afraid that if I do get blown up to pieces by some asshole (even worse, if it will be a lag kill) and not be bale to get back on my feet. My ship is my entire life atm, im saving up for the barge, its my lifesavings, i dont want to loose it, especially if the person who would make me loose it gets absolutely NOTHING in return.
This all makes me so paranoid and actually discourages me from exploring or at times even entering the game. Dont you pirates actually NEED people to shoot at? Well, if u camp gates and kill everybody, and 90% of that everybody will be noobs who have no warp stabilizers, who dont have BMs, who dont have fast and powerfull ships, then you are killing any hope for that noob to develop and play the game.
Your suggestions are wonderfull, and i will definitely look after that stabilizer. But up to this moment, I never knew that thing existed. Thats the point I was trying to make, Noobs get it really hard to survive and prosper, while experts have it easy ebcause theyve got ships, money, power (alliances), skills (RL skills)...
I dont want eve to be PvE or carebear. I just want to have a fair chance in the universe. I want to survive and not soil my pants when i see a flashing red icon on my radar...good thing my pants are brown.
I know what you mean when you say, if you get blown to pieces you got to start with frig missions. Happened to me a bunch of times when I was starting out in EVE. There is very little that can be done to guard yourself 100% for dying so the best idea is never to leave the station with more then you can afford to loose.
Another good idea is to figure out a good back up source of cash and have everything setup in case of emergency. I am a combat pilot so I do lvl 3 missions for my back up cash. I simply have a BS camped in a system with a lvl 3 agent. I will do 20 - 30 missions that generally gets me enough LP to get 2 +3 implants reward that I can sell for 80m and get back what I lost. However under no curcumstance I will use that BS for anything else outside of mission running. That way I know if ship happens I always got something to fall back on.
As for the point about new player survival, I agree with you, when new players come into the game tutorial tells them very little in respect of how to defend themselves. So when it comes down to it, a lot of people get pissed and leave. It is a big problem and I think that tutorial should go over some basic situation and advise on some strategies on how to avoid those situations. However. nothing stops people from stopping by forums and asking questions about these topics and most of the EVE communities will be able to assist them.
One note on warp core stabelizers: each stabelizer will be able to counter 1 warp jamming module. So if someone is going to try to use 2 warp jamming modules on you, you will need to have 2 warp core stabelizers to counter it. Also keep in mind that warp jamming modules come in 2 flavors:
1) Scrambler - it has effective range of 7,500 meters and will have warp jam strength of 2. (meaning you will need to have 2 stabelizers to counter 1 of these modules)
2) Jammer Distruptor - it has effective range of 20km and will have warp jam strength of 1. (you will need only 1 stabelizers to counter it).
Possible Scenarios:
1) One ship is camping the gate at 150km+. He is a sniper and will just try to blow you up from a far. These guys can only you hurt you if you are warping to the game the are currently camping.
To counter them, warp to planet close to the gate and use your scanner to do a directional scan towards the gate and make sure to modify distance to include the gate. Another option is to use additional option and warp 150km way from the gate and see what is going on.
2) There are 2 BS sitting right on top of the gate. Same tactics, as above, if you get caught your only hope is for warp core stabs, or for the fact that they are noobs and will not be able to lock you fast enough.
3) There are Sniping BS sitting 150km away and an interceptor sitting on top of the gate. If you get caught in an indy like that you are *******. Nothing you can do, unless u got indy specifically build to hand that situation. If you are in a EW capable ship, target jam interceptor, cuz he is the only thing that can prevent you from warping. If you carry a lot of drones, use them on an intercetor.
There are a lot of other situations, however the best way to stay alive while travel, is not to get caught with your pants down.
Thnx for the advice, that cleared up most of my questions about stabilizers.
I have another question though, if 2 or 3 ships target me with 5 of their disruptors (5 each, so 15 in total), does it mean I have to have 15 stabilizers?
As far as I know/ heard, people dont usualy gate camp in pairs, but rather large groups. It would probably take another group of peope to take care of them. That alone may disrupt trade/travel around the region. But I suppose thats what this game is all about - as close to scifi real life as possible, with pirating, profit and loss, corporate treachury etc etc... this game is not for kids or anyone who cant take serious challenge. Im talking about serious challenge, that may result in perma death equivalent.
If you get 15 ships to put a distrutor on you, you will need 15 stabelizers to be able to get away. Another words it is impossible. People do camp gates in big groups, however those are very easy to avoid. Just watch your map for POD kills in the last hour. Also, it will always be a bottleneck systems. Ultimately, if you are not sure go out ther in a shuttle first and check it out. Generally you are right if there is a big pirate blockade then gate is pritty much locked unless you got bookmarks. If you really need to get to the system urgently look for alternate route, set autopilot to pass only through .5+ sytems. If not, be smart about it and go do something else for 2 - 3 hours. It sux, because you wanted to get something and and you could not because of a bunch of idiots; but hey, it is better then dying mindlessly.
Just remember, there is no such thing in this game as an complitely impossible situation unless you are caught with your pants down. If you want to traven where ever and whenever get a cloak ship and go wherever. If you need to help a friend to get through a blockade and you have a stealth ship make sure that you about 13 km pass the gate from the location your freind be warping from. So you will warp to the gate cloaked, and keep flying until you get to 12 - 13km distance pass the gate. Then have your friend warp to you within 15km. With some luck he will land right on top of the gate.
Originally posted by Urza123 If you get 15 ships to put a distrutor on you, you will need 15 stabelizers to be able to get away. Another words it is impossible. People do camp gates in big groups, however those are very easy to avoid. Just watch your map for POD kills in the last hour. Also, it will always be a bottleneck systems. Ultimately, if you are not sure go out ther in a shuttle first and check it out. Generally you are right if there is a big pirate blockade then gate is pritty much locked unless you got bookmarks. If you really need to get to the system urgently look for alternate route, set autopilot to pass only through .5+ sytems. If not, be smart about it and go do something else for 2 - 3 hours. It sux, because you wanted to get something and and you could not because of a bunch of idiots; but hey, it is better then dying mindlessly. Just remember, there is no such thing in this game as an complitely impossible situation unless you are caught with your pants down. If you want to traven where ever and whenever get a cloak ship and go wherever. If you need to help a friend to get through a blockade and you have a stealth ship make sure that you about 13 km pass the gate from the location your freind be warping from. So you will warp to the gate cloaked, and keep flying until you get to 12 - 13km distance pass the gate. Then have your friend warp to you within 15km. With some luck he will land right on top of the gate.
And so come my brothers who understand the true power of a Covert Ops or Recon ship. Stealth is almost the mightiest weapon in the game. but, stealth requires some very well maintained and co-ordinated groups. So far only 2 people in my corp can fly covert-ops ships. Anyone needing bookmarks for a bottleneck system? both ways? ^_^
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I dont understand how you can be a miner/trader and have money problems.
Even mining Scord you should be clearing 1 mil an hour at least.
I do lowsec trading when I need cash, 3 mil an hour.
Paranoia is part of the flavor. This is the only game that will do that to you. They call it The Shakes. THe feeling you get when you jump into a camp, or get locked, or got ppl firing on you.
Its like how Doom3 is all dark and scary, you're supposed to be afraid, thats the whole immersion.
Believe it or not, the mechanics of the game are extremely forgiving, its nowhere near as ruthless as it feels, they just use the concept of isk loss to make it FEEL ruthless.
A corp isnt just "friends." Its actually a money making organization. If you are not making money, its time for a new corp. You should be mining together with them and making tons of cash, at the very least you should be doing stuff together, not just you playing the game solo in a corp.
As for "why should I be forced to join an alliance" its the exclusivity of the area that gives the ore its price. If everybody could mine it, it would be worth the same as Veldspar. Its guarded, you have to go through hoops to access the area, thats why miners can make 20 mil an hour mining there.
Cocaine is expensive because its illegal. If it was legal, you could go collect all the cocaine you want, but it would be worth nothing, because its a plant that grows out of the ground, it has no innate value of its own.
Same with lowsec ore. Its expensive because you can't mine it.
Originally posted by fizzle322 A corp isnt just "friends." Its actually a money making organization. If you are not making money, its time for a new corp.
While I agree with the rest of your post this part certainly is your personal attitude. For me a corp means having "friends" and people to enjoy the game with. If I dont like the people around me then there is no reason to play an MMO, but then again that is my personal opinion. Cash you can get easily, but being around nice/cool/fun people is something you can't buy.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Comments
On the issue of gate-camping :
I find the OP to be very vague in his statement. There are quite a number of 0.0 access points in EvE.
Some are heavily camped by alliances (NOT pirates) in order to guard access to what they regard as "their" space. This is the case of, for instance, A2-V27 in Querious, or RQH-MY in Pure Blind.
Some are heavily camped by alliances (again, NOT pirates) in order to secure contested territory long enough to allow for secure passage of friendly supply lines, and to blockade enemy supply lines. This is the case of systems such as EC-P8R in Pure Blind, or HED-GP in Catch.
Some are natural hotbeds of pirate activity, and are oft-camped by pirate entities (although in smaller proportions). This is notably the case for most access points to Syndicate and Providence, for example, or the P3EN-E system in Vale.
Finally, some access points are usually very quiet and uneventful. This is the case, for instance, of the 93PI-4 system in Pure Blind, amongst others.
The qualification of a 0.0 access point, its likeliness to be camped or not, and by who, evolves with time and political events. The wise traveller relies on solid intel and a high degree of awareness; sure, sometimes you'll get blown up into bits and pod-killed anyway, but that's life in 0.0.
Your best bet is to make some friends, it will greatly enhance your survival chances. 0.0 was never meant to be easy for anyone, much less for solo artists - if you insist on taking your chances, then you must learn to deal with the possible consequences.
On the issue of T2 BPO's :
Yes, there is a problem with the number of BPO's available in regard to the growing playerbase. Not only is the general playerbase growing (new customers), but the skilled playerbase is growing even faster compared to what it used to be. CCP has stated it will seed more BPO's, but I don't believe it will really fix the issue.
While I think it is okay for a player who has invested time and skills into an R&D career to eventually reap some benefits out of it, right now getting a BPO is akin to striking instant gold - some BPO's can easily be negotiated for tens of billions of ISK.
I wish CCP would revert to a much more reasonable system that reproduces the patent system : Initial seeding of new BPO's stays as it is now, and for a period of 4 to 6 months (or maybe a period indexed on the 'complexity' of the BPO), he and other same BPO holders have the exclusive ownership of that BPO. Thus they are able to reap the initial profit opportunities that all novelty items present. After that period, the BPO's are seeded (at the right price) on the open market for all to buy and use.
The value of novelty BPO's during the patent-holding time would slowly decay to its market seed value - BPO's wouldn't be the instant pot of gold anymore - yet the original owners would still make colossal profits from initial exclusive market rights, as players in EvE are suckers for novelty items, and would pay an arm and a leg for those.
In addition, seeding BPO's on the market once the patent-holding period is over would drive the price of those items down (more supply vs. stable demand) to slightly above cost value, which happens usually to be near the intrinsinc full insurance value (for ships).
My 0.02 isk.
Eve is all about freedom. THe 'bottleneck' effect is simply a social/poltical event that is changing the world of Eve. First off my POS is not at all hard to keep supplied, and I have only experienced a small number of pirates on the way to it. (and no I wont say where it is
). Now about your POS problem. First off if your using it for an industrial perspective (IE lots of refining, moon mining, etc) try doing convoys, intel (getting an alt into local pirate corps and seeing where camps are), or other ways. Now if your POS is there for the location, a Small POS would be sutable and easy to maintane. SImply have corp members grab some supplies from empire on their way to POS. They should make it 99% of time if they have bookmarks, wcs, nanofibers, and pay attention.
I agree with the blueprints however, there needs to be some way for others to gain access to these kinds of things.
If EVE was about freedom, then we wouldn't need gates to jump from system to system. We'd simply jump from however far out we needed to be, and jump in wherever we wanted to be.
If we are all about freedom, then that is what should be pursued. If we could do that, gate camping will go away.
But gate campers and twinks don't like freedom. They like constraints. Not only that, but they like constraints that are easy for them to deal with, but hard for others.
Power players don't like EVE because of its freedoms. Power players like EVE because of the constraints.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Jumping exactly where you want to be isnt freedom, its Disneyland.
Eve isnt a theme park, its a living universe that can be AFFECTED, people can actually close routes and affect trade, they can blockade their enemies and force them to leave, or force them to stay out.
Basically what carebears want is a contradiction.
"I want a living breathing universe but I dont want to be affected by other players"
If you're not affected by others, then its not a dynamic universe, its just a theme park like wow where nobody can affect anybody else in any way shape or form. You just go all all the rides they design for you, instanced just for you, all the NPC's belong to you.
But thats not Eve. Eve is a PVP game, if you can't handle being affected by others, then a player controlled universe is not for you, you want a PVE game where you only affect the programmed objects in the game, so that the players are unable to "grief" each other as you call it.
Anyway this game is not for everybody, I question how anybody can play this game for 2 years and just NOW start whining about gatecamps. They are just a mechanic of the game, if you can't get past a gatecamp then maybe the area is off-limits to you, until you bring in a force to clear them out.
The campers work together in teams to affect the game, you can work in a team to also affect the game.
But carebears dont like to work in teams, because something might drop a +5 fire sword and the carebear might not be able to win the roll and they would have a crying fit.
Carebears primarily have a social disfunction that makes it painful to deal with OTHERS. They can fight a NPC but they won't fight a living breathing player. They camp NPC's all day long, but they whine about players camping gates all day long. THe typical Eve carebear has a wallet with BILLIONS of isk, but they get upset when they lose a frigate costing 200k.
So its not about money, or griefing, or not wanting to fight.
Carebearism is a social disfunction and nothing else.
If you talk to almost any pirate, you can barely get them to shut up, they will hold a conversation in local for hours, if you ask them for advice they will talk to you for hours, they are socially healthy human beings who enjoy contact with other players, be it fighting them, talking with them or robbing them.
Every single PVP player I've met has been a socially well adjusted and honorable being.
Its the carebears who sit in empire and whine about every little loss who are these socially inept little trolls that can't BEAR the thought of being AFFECTED by another player, its this personal EGOTISM like they are too good to rub elbows with other players.
Yes, in Eve the players affect each other. Thats what makes it special. Without that it would be just another regular MMO, like Everquest in space.
^^ Here here!! ^^
I could try and put it better than that, but I don't think I would succeed.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Jumping exactly where you want to be isnt freedom, its Disneyland.
Eve isnt a theme park, its a living universe that can be AFFECTED, people can actually close routes and affect trade, they can blockade their enemies and force them to leave, or force them to stay out.
Basically what carebears want is a contradiction.
"I want a living breathing universe but I dont want to be affected by other players"
If you're not affected by others, then its not a dynamic universe, its just a theme park like wow where nobody can affect anybody else in any way shape or form. You just go all all the rides they design for you, instanced just for you, all the NPC's belong to you.
But thats not Eve. Eve is a PVP game, if you can't handle being affected by others, then a player controlled universe is not for you, you want a PVE game where you only affect the programmed objects in the game, so that the players are unable to "grief" each other as you call it.
Anyway this game is not for everybody, I question how anybody can play this game for 2 years and just NOW start whining about gatecamps. They are just a mechanic of the game, if you can't get past a gatecamp then maybe the area is off-limits to you, until you bring in a force to clear them out.
The campers work together in teams to affect the game, you can work in a team to also affect the game.
But carebears dont like to work in teams, because something might drop a +5 fire sword and the carebear might not be able to win the roll and they would have a crying fit.
Carebears primarily have a social disfunction that makes it painful to deal with OTHERS. They can fight a NPC but they won't fight a living breathing player. They camp NPC's all day long, but they whine about players camping gates all day long. THe typical Eve carebear has a wallet with BILLIONS of isk, but they get upset when they lose a frigate costing 200k.
So its not about money, or griefing, or not wanting to fight.
Carebearism is a social disfunction and nothing else.
If you talk to almost any pirate, you can barely get them to shut up, they will hold a conversation in local for hours, if you ask them for advice they will talk to you for hours, they are socially healthy human beings who enjoy contact with other players, be it fighting them, talking with them or robbing them.
Every single PVP player I've met has been a socially well adjusted and honorable being.
Its the carebears who sit in empire and whine about every little loss who are these socially inept little trolls that can't BEAR the thought of being AFFECTED by another player, its this personal EGOTISM like they are too good to rub elbows with other players.
Yes, in Eve the players affect each other. Thats what makes it special. Without that it would be just another regular MMO, like Everquest in space.
Look man, if you had your way, how would you want us to play? It ain't the OP that has a problem with EVE. It seems you have got the problem with EVE, because you are the one who feels under attack by these players you don't like, and read into their minds these secret motives.
But let me tell you my situation, and maybe you'll understand why I'm not running in losec.
I'm three weeks out of the box, I've got a 1 million ISK destroyer, an industrial ship, a bank account of 3 million, and I'm saving for a cruiser. I don't have "billions of ISK." I have a bit of working capital that I am using to gain more. And if I lose it, I'm put that much further back.
Yeah I gab it up in corp, racechannel, and local. But I'll just let the ones with negative security ratings just be. Not because I'm some antisocial dweeb with confidence issues like you paint anyone who isn't rushing into losec, but because I can't afford to have the dude with a 100,000,000 ISK bounty and a battlecruiser follow me around and give me a hard time.
And seeing how this game evokes these strong feelings from folk like you, that's a real concern. The Bartle killer folk are bored, and looking for something to get POed about so they'll have a war to fight. If it were true what everyone says about the big battles and all, then they'd have things to do. But we are in a period, from what I can see, of a "non-aggression pact" of sorts between alliances.
There is so much uncertainty with Kali, T3, and all those other issues on the horizon, that a lot of the big dogs would rather "live and let live" so they can mine, and place themselves in a position to be successful. A lot of the small fry are doing the same thing.
So I do agent missions to aid my small corp's ratings, and sell the goods I get as bonuses on trade runs. I buy low, and sell high.
But if I go rushing gates with my 10 man corp where the most advanced player is one month old, are you going to replace our working capital? Didn't think so. Nor do I think that its respectable to keep on rushing gates in noobie frigs we get from Pend Insurance, because we have no more ISK to buy anything else.
What pisses off the PvP folk the most is the fact that I'm free to not play the game they want me to play. I'm free to stay in highsec and build to their level.
If we like things the way that they are, I've got no problem with that. But then don't complain that you all are bored, because I'm not. I'll just stay in Ourlaset, and Jita.
And from the look of the number of people there, and the number of folk I talk to, I ain't alone.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Repy to message just above this one ^^^
Nobody is telling you to play the game my way, just saying that everybody AFFECTS each other in this game.
Be that crime, piracy, the market, builders selling you ships, miners mining to sell minerals to builders, its all connected to each other.
I am making you aware that whether you know it or not, you are part of a food chain, we ALL are part of the food chain.
For every gang of thugs who hunt and kill you, there are two more gangs of thugs hunting and killing them.
The cycle of mining, building, transporting, destroying, it is like a ballet, like a SPACE OPERA with each person doing their own dance.
I will tell you the secret to enjoying Eve. The secret to enjoying Eve is to let go of the concept that Bigger is Better. Forget everything you learned in other games. The natural progression is NOT : Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, BC, Battleship, at which point you are ready to take your BS into 0.0 and pwn ppl. Thats not how it works.
Here the progression is just the opposite. You use WHAT YOU CAN EASILY AFFORD TO LOSE.
Until such time that you become a Billionaire, a BS is ONLY. FOR. RATTING.
You work your way up to a BS until you can comfortably do level 4's. When you get bored of doing missions, you take the smallest cheapest ship into lowsec, and you either 1) Pirate 2) Hunt pirates 3) Kill rats 4) Ninjamine 5) Or kill anybody you run across.
Right now with your bank account, you can afford to buy a tackler, take it into lowsec, try your hand at piracy, or do a little freelance mercenary work protecting miners in lowsec from pirates.
Me personally, I'm not a pirate, I just don't have the personality for it, but I can sure as hell hire myself out for protection, or hauling, or any other jobs that people want done, and they pay me a ton of cash too, talkin like 3 mil an hour for hauling stuff around in lowsec, with just a cheap hauler that costs like 900k, and is insured so I lose almost nothing.
And if I lose a ship, so what?
The key to enjoying eve is risk management.
Control what you plan to lose. If you undock with something, consider it lost.
Later on you will be able to afford losing cruisers and battleships, but for now only cheap frigates with cheap modules.
Remember. RISK MANAGEMENT.
Actually, you are assuming that no pirate would pay an extra $12-$15 US per month to fence his goods through a tradeskill oriented alt on another account.
Anyway, flagging loot as stolen so it could not be sold would be totally against the PvP aspect of EVE. And if it were flagged as stolen but still tradeable who would even care?
Now for what I considered to be the good part of your post...untankable defenses around the gates. I think that would be a potential soluion to the problem of a 4-5 players at a time being able to hold a constellation. All I'm hoping for is some way to limit corps to the belts/moons they can actually defend rather than the 20-40 systems sitting behind the one gate they can defend.
Well said, on the issue with gates, I always thought gates is always a way for CCP to concentrate players together, imagine if you can jump in from a system anywhere, it will be a lot harder to control an area and find players to pvp or so to speak, so I don't think this will change any time soon. I mean you got npc rats camping the gate, I think that tells you about something. Is this stupid? Yeah, but I doubt ccp will do anything about it. In terms of territory control, etc I still think Dark Age of Camelot does a fantastic job at it.
The end result for CCP is they don't get my subscription fees anymore, plain and simple. I know none of you give a rip so thats that, the only statement that I can make to CCP is to withold my money, I get to keep it and they don't get to have it, period. I had more to say but why give the flamers and chop shop critics more to work with.
No you can't have my stuff.
If you don't like it, you don't have to play the game, simple as that. Not a flame, not n00b calling, just a simple statement. I've done it multiple times in games myself.
I would also like to add that although gate camping is annoying for those on the receiving end (and some on the giving end while they wait), it really is the only feasible way to catch people. Since you can't stop them at mid-warp and you can't be sure if they'll go to an asteroid belt/station, camping a chokepoint gate or a frequently-travelled gate is the better way of finding people. Not the best solution, but it's either that or no PvP or minimal PvP at best.
Gate camping is natural, you find that in EVERY single game, in DAOC, in WoW, and ooooh talk about DAOC, i was playing in Bors as an albion, and ooooh the irony of 150 mids blocking 16 albs from passing the albs mile gate, and what ? they were so proud of it.
in WoW it gets worse, specially in AV, where if you get stuck in your base, you're done for, it only takes time before the other race finishes the game.
In EVE though you can play around it, i've NEVER EVER in my life got ganked passing 0.0 space, i've actually got passed 15 ships guarding an entrance to 0.0 with my BATTLESHIPS, yes slow ass moving and turning but i made it, and now i'm training for interdictors so i can make it easily to 0.0 space without any trouble.
also there are alot of ways to know if there are gate campers or not, ask in the local system, check the map for the number of players, get to know the frequent systems being camped and where, all of these things come from playing the game, not coming here and whine about being ganked in a noob ship with a skilless char by people with 1 year PVP experience.
seriously, whining does no good, there are ALOT of ways to avoid being ganked anywhere, just avoid it, ask before you enter, check the map, get a very fast ship ( interceptor, interdictor or the fast normal frigates ) fit in some nanofibers on these ships and talk to me if you ever get ganked warping to a place.
done.
I haven't played DAOC but as far as WoW goes:
Camping does not help you in any of the battlegrounds against a competitive group because they ALL respawn at the same place while you have to have a defense posted elsewhere or a single rogue sneaks by to "cap" your flag/nodes. If you're successfully camping their graveyard it means the BG was a blowout anyway.
A) AV is node-capture...if you get caught in your base its because your side has been losing ground for the last hour.
C) You shoulda played before battlegrounds when PvP was basically EVE with much lower death penalties (too low to be honest) and NO CAMPING. Yes, in WoW because there was no real place that absolutely everyone had to be (that they didn't show up to in groups of 20-40 or hundreds in the case of IF or Ogrimmar) because there were at least 2-3 ways into most places and you could always jump along in griffins, zepplins, boats etc. Ever wonder why PvPers never camped boats even though they were choke-points in that game? Because logically, the boats were defended against small groups by faction NPCs and anyone paying attention could jump off and swim underwater to shore and even after you do succeed, it just made a mage sitting in Ironforge and Darnassus a lot of money from teleports.
PvP in pre-battlegrounds WoW actually took place distributed throughout the world unlike EVE where it takes place in exactly the same place every time because it gives a huge advantage to the camping player(s). Unless, of course, the campers want to buy us all a gig of RAM, a 3ghz processor, and a 1meg DSL connection so we can load the next system (and all the jetcans they have "forgotten" to pick up) sometime under 1-minute it takes with a minimum spec system. Until people can travel they simply won't in anything worth killing and you can be all alone there in your territory harassing the local Angels and 'roids content with your uber-blobing skills while 5 people at a time can hold the entire area against anything short of another uber-blob which causes a rely nice lagspike to even the field when they show up.
Now for the second paragraph:
You know...there are a lot of ways to avoid getting ganked, the most effective one is NOT TO GO THERE, which is killing the PvP experience in EVE and overloading the carebear centers like Jita. When newbs can actually make it to a field of Jasper in their mining frig or destroyer, then you'll see them taking the risk of mining in low-sec even though they are killed quite often by roving pirates and alliance defenses. Instead, they sit in 1.0sec waiting for that veldspar to respawn and eventually leave saying that the game sucks. Everyone says its risk vs. reward in EVE but whines when people don't take the ridiculous risk for mediocre reward as a solo/small-corp player in 0sec. In regards to making it in a battleship: congrats man, not many people can say that....now try it in a mining barge that moves at half the speed of smell, turns like...well...a barge, and can't fit a decent defense.
Good points in this thread. Id like to add mine.
The point about "live fast, live dangerous" is a good one, but its lacking perspective from other side - trader side. Im a miner/trader, I like to mine stuff and process it, make some weapons, ammo, sell materials, make a profit, etc. My style is as much important as your style (PvPer/ganker/Pirate). So why is that my style has to be limited to a point where I HAVE to join a big corp/alliance to be protected in order to mine the juicy ore? Why do I have to pay the price and not you? Why not make all pirates unable to buy anything, anywhere but their home-station? You wouldnt like that, would you?
I have played this game for 2 months now, and im getting to a point where mining in 0.5-0.6 is not as profitable lets face it, mining plagio with occasional omber on mining barge 3 is not too profitable. Plus theres still that danger of RATs attacking me, so theres still some danger to it. But now I cant really go to anywhere below 0.5 becuase there are some pirates there that have nothing to do but blow my ship up. And what do pirates lose? Well, they cant get into 0.5 and up systems because concord will attack them. Big deal. All the juice is below 0.4 and if someone really wanted to buy something in 0.5 and above, well, just have an alt do it for ya.
To make my point short. Eve is forcing PvP style gameplay onto everyone, while limiting pure economical development (traders, miners, haulers, junkies...). Everyone who wants to actually make big buck is Forced to either join an alliance or pick up omber scraps in 0.6.
Im in a small corp, we are a small but friendly bunch. We do not belong into an alliance so if we decide to mine something in 0.0, we are screwed becuase if 2-3 guys are mining, we only get about 2-3 other guys who can guard us. For now, im still fairly satisfied with mining kernite/omber. But once I outgrow that, Im not sure i will be able to continue playing if i cant mine in 0.4 and below zones. PC Pirating should be either limited or design a new system to compensate open PvP to some level. For example a protectorate: a miner can sign up for a protectorate with a local station (NPC or PC) and pay 10% of all income generated from that system but if that person is attacked, NPC ships jump to help immediately.
Just my thought on this issue
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I must say that I agree with daikatana. With as many people log in to the servers, the game is still underpopulated. People need to be fighting over scarce resources but the fact is that resources far exceed the players that can use them. Yes, there are "better" areas of 0.0 for people to fight over but the difference isn't worth it enough to parties involved. There does need to be a better reason to fight than just petty politics. That's not to say that isn't a reason for a large portion of historical wars but an even bigger one is the drive for strategic resources. I mean I would guess on average that there are more systems in 0.0 than players. The galaxy is simply too big for wars to mean much of anything. I love the depth, complexity, and realism of Eve but I still fawn over other PvP implementations such as castle wars and castle ownership in Lineage 2 (though I refuse to grid my way far enough to be able to try it out). It just seems so much more...meaningful.
What a load of sh!t.. the zerglings where all at South shore and Tarren Mill 24/7 pre Bg..
and before the HS was implemented.. EPL/Tyrs hand/STV was the place tobe
so there goes your WoW bias down the drain
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
I agree with you. WHat i was whining about is not the fact that PvP exists or that it is open PvP, what i wanted to point out is that PvP takes precedence over economic development. U r right, Eve is all about PvP, but its also all about player run market and corporations (regardless of their size). I consider Eve PvP and economical side to be of equal importance, meaning both should have equal share of gameplay and not be overely restricted. Currently, Pirating is restricted just a tiny bit in a way that pirates get attacked in 0.5 areas. But as i stated above, those areas can be considered noob areas, and all the cream is in the lower speced systems. Traders, however, are pretty much restricted to higher level zones, noob zones mostly. I understand what u r saying, i dont want Eve to become PvE or even consentual PvP game. But Id realy love to see some PvP balancing for all those people who dont feel like reading mindless chatter in large corp/alliance channels but who rather to preffer smaller family-style corps or life as a loner. Im not saying i should have all freedom to mine in 0.0 without any danger. All im saying, give us a chance to survive running through 0.4 without some asshole pirate blowing my hsip to heavens with NO real reward for that pirate (almost happend yesterday, THANK GOD i was in a shuttle, and not my badger II).
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
You have a good point, however it is a sword that cuts both ways.
You are saying, well if I want to advance as a trader/hauler/miner etc, why do I have to pay the price of PvP part of the game. However EVE is a PVP oriented game, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Same way WoW is a PVE oriented game. There is no clear cut here but people just have to decide what they like and what they don't like; depending on thier likes and dislikes they can choose a game. What you are saying is very simular if a lot of hardcore PvP players went to WoW and said, well we want to be able to loot their bodies and destroy your equipment, but we are not allowed to, so how come you guys get to have all the fun and we dont? It is the same concept as comming into thing game and saying, well I want to mine rare ores, grow rich and have fun and you should not be allowed to touch me.
Again I am not trying to bash your point of view, I am just saying that different games designed for different crouds. If you come in and play a game was designed for a PvP croud don't complain or whine. Simply take it or leave it.
As for your problems mining in low sec systems, well there is a million and one tricks to do it. However EVE is designed around concept of corporate existance so you cant just exist as corp of 6 people and expect not to be effected by the rest of the game, some one said in of the earlier posts a very good phrase "you are a part of the food chain, weather you like it or not". As for your directorate idea, well there are things you can do that is simular to that. I know you said that you guys didnt want to join any alliences, so my advace to you would be find a huge allience close to your location and get in touch with them, tell them that you got a corp of x people who want to come out and see 0.0 and that you are willing to pay some money per member to have access to 0.0 area. If you are in the middle of allience terretory, in 99% of the cases you dont need to worry about PvP combat.
The game of EVE is built on interaction of people and to get anywhere you have interact with other people, cut deals and make compromises. That is exactly what EVE is, if a player can't deal with that fact they should not play this game.
I agree with you. WHat i was whining about is not the fact that PvP exists or that it is open PvP, what i wanted to point out is that PvP takes precedence over economic development. U r right, Eve is all about PvP, but its also all about player run market and corporations (regardless of their size). I consider Eve PvP and economical side to be of equal importance, meaning both should have equal share of gameplay and not be overely restricted. Currently, Pirating is restricted just a tiny bit in a way that pirates get attacked in 0.5 areas. But as i stated above, those areas can be considered noob areas, and all the cream is in the lower speced systems. Traders, however, are pretty much restricted to higher level zones, noob zones mostly. I understand what u r saying, i dont want Eve to become PvE or even consentual PvP game. But Id realy love to see some PvP balancing for all those people who dont feel like reading mindless chatter in large corp/alliance channels but who rather to preffer smaller family-style corps or life as a loner. Im not saying i should have all freedom to mine in 0.0 without any danger. All im saying, give us a chance to survive running through 0.4 without some asshole pirate blowing my hsip to heavens with NO real reward for that pirate (almost happend yesterday, THANK GOD i was in a shuttle, and not my badger II).
I understand your position, and when I was starting out in EVE I felt much the same way. However, you have to draw a line somewhere. If it is not .4 and lower then they will have to make it .3 and lower or .2 and lower but every single time there will be people who want more and more and just keep complaining. (I am not refering to you in this case). However it is much like you stated, you were going though .4 and nearly got blown up; that is one side of the medal, however lets take a look at the other side, you go though and get blown up and loose a ship. You need a replacement, that generates demand on minerals, materials, crafters etc. that is what feeds other miners and traders like your self. That is the very interesting thing in EVE is that although you get hurt a lot by pirates they are the ones that provide you with the demand on the goods that you deal. So lets say we move FFA kill zone to .2 from .4, I can granatee you that in a long run you will be loosing money, because people will not be loosing as much stuff and earning a lot more, that alone will cause inflation and market over-saturation.
So when it comes to a .4 and below kill zone I think it is optimal solution, because it has worked for some time now and it keeps market going.
However here is some advice for how NOT to get killed while traveling in .4 - .1 space and how to run a mining op with 4 - 6 people in lower sec space.
1. Bookmarks - get them, buy them make them. If you will check on escrow people sell bookmarks that cover entire regions of space. They are gate to gate bookmarks so if you have to travel somewhere use them. Note that, aside from the fact that they are 99% safe travel you will also travel much faster, for example with bookmarks you can travel as much as 20 systems in 10 - 15 minutes.
2. If you know you are going somewhere in a slower ship, warp core stabelizers are always a good idea. Taking your hauler somewhere? Good for you, dont forget warp core stabelizers, you have a little less space? Well, you can always take the risk.
3. Unless you are a pro-miner and can use teir 3 mining barge DONT use them unless part of a huge mining op. If you are mining with a bunch of friends 3 -6 people get 6 BS out there. Best mining BS is a Armageddon, I believe. I know some people are going to say that they spent a lot of time doing that stuff, well I am sorry, but if you would have done the math first you would see that unless u got a lot of high lvl skills at 5 mining with 8 mining lasers is better then 1 or 2 strip miners.
4. While mining keep your ships aligned to location where you have to warp to if someone warps in.
5. Keep your eye on a local channel for low sec people, or people from the well known pirate corps.
6. Map is your friend learn how to use all the options, there are a lot of options that allow you to see how many ships were destoyed in what systems, how many people were podded, how many people went though that zone. Galaxy is huge however finding a nice spot to mine in lower sec space can be pritty hard.
Definitely good advice, Urza, thank you. I understand your position and I agree with it. The thing what drives me (at times) paranoid is that im flying on the edge. If (god forbid) i lost my ship, that would be it. I wouldnt be able to get back on track. Id have to start with a frig again, at best i could buy the next level frig, but i wouldnt be able to buy my badger 2 or if i ever manage to raise enough money - mining barge.
Im still a rookie, and will probly stay like that for at least a year or two - i dont play Eve often and not for long. What really ticked me off is a bunch of gatecampers the other day. I wasnt talking to them, i wasnt threatening to them, there was NO point or NO reward whatsoever to killing me. And if they did manage to do that while iwas in badger2, that would be it for me because I doubt id go through frig-mining sessions again. Thats the single point i was trying to make - Eve has setup this game so that people can actually MAKE other people leave the game. Its not like WoW, where even Open PvP doesnt result in more then couple of coin in repairs, not that I want Eve to be like wow. But im really really afraid that if I do get blown up to pieces by some asshole (even worse, if it will be a lag kill) and not be bale to get back on my feet. My ship is my entire life atm, im saving up for the barge, its my lifesavings, i dont want to loose it, especially if the person who would make me loose it gets absolutely NOTHING in return.
This all makes me so paranoid and actually discourages me from exploring or at times even entering the game. Dont you pirates actually NEED people to shoot at? Well, if u camp gates and kill everybody, and 90% of that everybody will be noobs who have no warp stabilizers, who dont have BMs, who dont have fast and powerfull ships, then you are killing any hope for that noob to develop and play the game.
Your suggestions are wonderfull, and i will definitely look after that stabilizer. But up to this moment, I never knew that thing existed. Thats the point I was trying to make, Noobs get it really hard to survive and prosper, while experts have it easy ebcause theyve got ships, money, power (alliances), skills (RL skills)...
I dont want eve to be PvE or carebear. I just want to have a fair chance in the universe. I want to survive and not soil my pants when i see a flashing red icon on my radar...good thing my pants are brown.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I know what you mean when you say, if you get blown to pieces you got to start with frig missions. Happened to me a bunch of times when I was starting out in EVE. There is very little that can be done to guard yourself 100% for dying so the best idea is never to leave the station with more then you can afford to loose.
Another good idea is to figure out a good back up source of cash and have everything setup in case of emergency. I am a combat pilot so I do lvl 3 missions for my back up cash. I simply have a BS camped in a system with a lvl 3 agent. I will do 20 - 30 missions that generally gets me enough LP to get 2 +3 implants reward that I can sell for 80m and get back what I lost. However under no curcumstance I will use that BS for anything else outside of mission running. That way I know if ship happens I always got something to fall back on.
As for the point about new player survival, I agree with you, when new players come into the game tutorial tells them very little in respect of how to defend themselves. So when it comes down to it, a lot of people get pissed and leave. It is a big problem and I think that tutorial should go over some basic situation and advise on some strategies on how to avoid those situations. However. nothing stops people from stopping by forums and asking questions about these topics and most of the EVE communities will be able to assist them.
One note on warp core stabelizers: each stabelizer will be able to counter 1 warp jamming module. So if someone is going to try to use 2 warp jamming modules on you, you will need to have 2 warp core stabelizers to counter it. Also keep in mind that warp jamming modules come in 2 flavors:
1) Scrambler - it has effective range of 7,500 meters and will have warp jam strength of 2. (meaning you will need to have 2 stabelizers to counter 1 of these modules)
2) Jammer Distruptor - it has effective range of 20km and will have warp jam strength of 1. (you will need only 1 stabelizers to counter it).
Possible Scenarios:
1) One ship is camping the gate at 150km+. He is a sniper and will just try to blow you up from a far. These guys can only you hurt you if you are warping to the game the are currently camping.
To counter them, warp to planet close to the gate and use your scanner to do a directional scan towards the gate and make sure to modify distance to include the gate. Another option is to use additional option and warp 150km way from the gate and see what is going on.
2) There are 2 BS sitting right on top of the gate. Same tactics, as above, if you get caught your only hope is for warp core stabs, or for the fact that they are noobs and will not be able to lock you fast enough.
3) There are Sniping BS sitting 150km away and an interceptor sitting on top of the gate. If you get caught in an indy like that you are *******. Nothing you can do, unless u got indy specifically build to hand that situation. If you are in a EW capable ship, target jam interceptor, cuz he is the only thing that can prevent you from warping. If you carry a lot of drones, use them on an intercetor.
There are a lot of other situations, however the best way to stay alive while travel, is not to get caught with your pants down.
Thnx for the advice, that cleared up most of my questions about stabilizers.
I have another question though, if 2 or 3 ships target me with 5 of their disruptors (5 each, so 15 in total), does it mean I have to have 15 stabilizers?
As far as I know/ heard, people dont usualy gate camp in pairs, but rather large groups. It would probably take another group of peope to take care of them. That alone may disrupt trade/travel around the region. But I suppose thats what this game is all about - as close to scifi real life as possible, with pirating, profit and loss, corporate treachury etc etc... this game is not for kids or anyone who cant take serious challenge. Im talking about serious challenge, that may result in perma death equivalent.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
If you get 15 ships to put a distrutor on you, you will need 15 stabelizers to be able to get away. Another words it is impossible. People do camp gates in big groups, however those are very easy to avoid. Just watch your map for POD kills in the last hour. Also, it will always be a bottleneck systems. Ultimately, if you are not sure go out ther in a shuttle first and check it out. Generally you are right if there is a big pirate blockade then gate is pritty much locked unless you got bookmarks. If you really need to get to the system urgently look for alternate route, set autopilot to pass only through .5+ sytems. If not, be smart about it and go do something else for 2 - 3 hours. It sux, because you wanted to get something and and you could not because of a bunch of idiots; but hey, it is better then dying mindlessly.
Just remember, there is no such thing in this game as an complitely impossible situation unless you are caught with your pants down. If you want to traven where ever and whenever get a cloak ship and go wherever. If you need to help a friend to get through a blockade and you have a stealth ship make sure that you about 13 km pass the gate from the location your freind be warping from. So you will warp to the gate cloaked, and keep flying until you get to 12 - 13km distance pass the gate. Then have your friend warp to you within 15km. With some luck he will land right on top of the gate.
And so come my brothers who understand the true power of a Covert Ops or Recon ship. Stealth is almost the mightiest weapon in the game. but, stealth requires some very well maintained and co-ordinated groups. So far only 2 people in my corp can fly covert-ops ships. Anyone needing bookmarks for a bottleneck system? both ways? ^_^
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I dont understand how you can be a miner/trader and have money problems.
Even mining Scord you should be clearing 1 mil an hour at least.
I do lowsec trading when I need cash, 3 mil an hour.
Paranoia is part of the flavor. This is the only game that will do that to you. They call it The Shakes. THe feeling you get when you jump into a camp, or get locked, or got ppl firing on you.
Its like how Doom3 is all dark and scary, you're supposed to be afraid, thats the whole immersion.
Believe it or not, the mechanics of the game are extremely forgiving, its nowhere near as ruthless as it feels, they just use the concept of isk loss to make it FEEL ruthless.
A corp isnt just "friends." Its actually a money making organization. If you are not making money, its time for a new corp. You should be mining together with them and making tons of cash, at the very least you should be doing stuff together, not just you playing the game solo in a corp.
As for "why should I be forced to join an alliance" its the exclusivity of the area that gives the ore its price. If everybody could mine it, it would be worth the same as Veldspar. Its guarded, you have to go through hoops to access the area, thats why miners can make 20 mil an hour mining there.
Cocaine is expensive because its illegal. If it was legal, you could go collect all the cocaine you want, but it would be worth nothing, because its a plant that grows out of the ground, it has no innate value of its own.
Same with lowsec ore. Its expensive because you can't mine it.
While I agree with the rest of your post this part certainly is your personal attitude. For me a corp means having "friends" and people to enjoy the game with. If I dont like the people around me then there is no reason to play an MMO, but then again that is my personal opinion. Cash you can get easily, but being around nice/cool/fun people is something you can't buy.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.