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Black Desert is pay 2 win.
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It's clearly not impossible; a player is selling the item, not the game's marketplace.
It's incredibly hypocritical. You talk about the developers being "dishonest" about the game, but then continue to make completely false claims about how items are obtained in the game.
If this is your definition of P2W, then you must also consider GW2, EVE, WoW, SWToR, WildStar, etc all to be P2W.
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Seriously, you complain that I don't respond to you anymore, and you completely blow anything I say in the wind.
The failure rate is about 100 to 1 on many jewelry items. You are not talking 1 ring, you are talking 100 to get 1 to +15.
I'll give you 1 single more chance before I stop responding to you.
To add to this: FFXIV 1.0 had a "forbidden meld" system whereby your item (and materia) was completely destroyed if you failed it. With Penta melds having something like a 1% chance for success and the materia itself costing millions of gil, not to mention the items. It typically took anywhere from 100-500 million gil to penta meld a single item.
There was no cash shop to increase the chance, and there actually were people will the best penta melded gear in the game. Though most just tried to forbidden meld cheap items with cheap materia for the achievement and the crown that you got for it.
All that is happening here is a different form of currency is being used. If you can play for six hours a day, then progressively you will be further along than someone who has just 2 hours to play a day. One person pays with time, the other with cash but the end is exactly the same, you are equal with no advantage.
It all comes down to a couple of things 1) how much is your time worth, cash wise 2) Its very easy to make money, the rp of the game grooms you to do so, it assumes that you are living in that world and would have some sort of trade to maintain your life 3) If the barter, trade and crafts are not something you enjoy, then yes you will have a hard time making money, but then, you are either playing a game not suited for you, or you can buy what you need to do the things you do enjoy.
Its that simple, stop harping on to P2W just because you dislike something.
My issue with the game is that its quite bland, safe and boring. Interesting concepts, just executed poorly. This is not likely to change going forward so ill bail out from it, but from a trade and craft perspective its interesting, but I find more enjoyment in this from FF14.
What part of this concept do you not grasp?
This (the money=in game currency loop) is a very common system used in the majority of mainstream MMOs (EVE, GW2, WoW, WildStar, SWToR, etc.), and in no other games is it considered "P2W".
It seems like your problem is more with the enchanting system, and not the method the game uses to generate income.
"Will possessing ogre ring make me win, where I could not win otherwise, or is it simply a nice thing, a pretty item with solid stats?", or in other words, "Can not a person dressed in 'many blues, fewer orange' win?"
If I have spent 1000 hours and not spent extra money, can play the game blindfolded, will I certainly lose to someone who spent 900 dollars, has played 100 hours, and has 'ogre ring'?
You know the answer to these. Then you get into...
"But what if I don't have 1000 hours?", "Is it fair people other than me win lotteries", "Why can't I have raid gear on a new toon?", or, "Should everyone, regardless of participation, net the same rewards?"
...and I guess the answers to these are on a level of personal preference, so one would seek out games with such options. It's just not that game.
Now look, before I get labeled a "fanboi", because I honestly have not even made up my mind about Black Desert for release, realize these are all very old questions, issues which I believe have been brought up for every game any people take seriously. None of this is new, I didn't invent this and I'm not arguing just to argue with you. I can make parallels of all these same issues to most games, cash shop or otherwise, just by virtue of drops and loot distribution. Companies these days capitalize on the premises, and I don't personally believe it to be unwise or unfair.
It's possible in many MMO to defeat all content without armor. If somehow every mob misses you every single time, you never need armor. It will probably never happen in a million years, but it is mathematically possible.
Not only can you argue that no game is pay2win, you can argue that you never need armor or healing in those MMO.
All things equal, you are more likely to win if you have that ring than if you didn't, that makes it pay 2 win for me.
The point he is missing is about how exactly u make $$$ in BDO and that doesn't come from the cash shop it comes from the players that use the worker/trading systems. Where the worker system is basicly free $$$ as you can hoard materials for exactly zero effort and zero risk. trading beings some risk but even at higher level it is easily avoided.
BDO have a KARMA system that means unless you are involved in a guild AT WAR they cant just go around attack whoever they want the exact points are worked on but you can kill 3 players before you turn free for all
which will hardly promote open ganking and it takes a good amount of grinding to clear it up as well
Now back to the P2W argument how do you win when the opposite side have nothing to lose? So beside losing a trade pack or more likely get your horse killed once or twice a month and reduced e-peen size that is all there is to lose, given you dont walk around in your +15 gear just because u can
Sadly BDO is not PvP gallore it is exactly the oposite PvP is entirely OPTIONAL due to the KARMA system and is basicly for GUILD members only
For him P2W means that anything that doesn't entitle him instant win because he decided to log in for 5min compared to the guy next to him and not warrant him a "bow" Clearly is P2W for that i agree with him. Any game that doesn't make every player *bow* when he logs is a P2W and BDO is clearly one of them
*BOW*
I'd be compelled if, on the cash shop, people could pay 200usd for a weapon that does destructive damage far surpassing any which drops or can be crafted in game, and this happens. I'd be even more compelled if you could buy, from the cash shop, levels of personal energy shield which effectively negate any attack except against the aforementioned weapon, and this happens. (as a disclaimer I have seen this more in f2p rts strategy, by allegory) Just being a "time saver" is not pay to win. Call it "pay to save time", or call it "pay to prove you're disinterested in actually playing the game but only interested in giving yourself a marked additional option of not losing", but it is not "pay to win".
However, not all pay to win are equal. To me there are mainly two tiers of them. The first one would be that RMT players can just straight up buy gears/enchantment items/boosters in cash shop; items that directly effect game play are creative out of thin air. I personally have been burnt by such game before and I swore to never play a MMO like that again and nobody else should neither.
The second tier, however, is a little different. RMT players can only buy items in cash shop that has not direct effect on game play/balance (aka things like costumes etc), sell them to OTHER players in the game for in game currency and then buy gears/other items with it. While they still hold advantage on other players, at least you know that there are somebody out there actually playing the game and the in game currency gets recycled between players. It will be a players driven market because the RMT players will actually need others to buy their cash shop items in order to gain in game currency. Obviously this method is suspect to attracting all the bots, but that would be the developer's problem and if they can't/won't solve it, the game deserve to die out quickly.
In the end, it all depends on how much P2W tolerance one has. I am okay with BDO as it has the tier 2 system. MMO developers/publishers don't run charities, they need to get revenue from somewhere to survive. Buy to play gets them back the development money and then some, but they would need to continously be releasing expansion that people will buy to be sustainable and chances of that happening is unlikely. Beside FFXIV ARR and WoW, there hasn't been any sustainable subscription based MMO. Unless we can provide alternative ways to generate revenue, we can only choose the lesser of the evils.
There is no game that isn't P2W in the current market. Whether it's by intention or design. Even the game of your signature is P2W as you are -- albeit unintentionally with the system -- able to sell unique dye (that is soulbound) that you buy on the cash shop by placing it on armor that isn't bound. All it requires is a credit card and pressing a few buttons in game and you dramatically increased the value of an item. The same can be said with selling power of retainers and ventures -- or even having a 14.99 account over a 12.99 one for the 7 additional characters. Perhaps even having multiple accounts. It requires extra work in game, yes -- a lot of extra work, actually (which I like as it rewards time investment unlike most games; feel the need to emphasize just how much work this requires -- thousands of hours of additional game play to make it worthwhile) -- but it's still a fact that one character with maxed crafting and 8 retainers is able to make a lot more gil than another maxed crafter with the minimum amount. In addition, they're looking to increase the power of crafted and auctioned items in 3.2 according to the last live letter from the producer that was displayed.
I could get my multi-boxing accounts on WoW back up and do old raids or garrisons without any of the depreciation of command table gold or raid gold due to being only solo. Don't even need any programs to help with that, just /follow and or tabbing screens.
The definition "if you can find it in game, it's not pay2win"...is idiotic.
Because you can make cash shop items required to progress, drop from mobs with a 0.00000000000000000000001% chance, and according to you guys, it wouldn't be pay2win. Yet every single person would be forced to buy the item to even progress in the game.
Saying that because an item can be gotten in the game, that the MMO isn't pay2win, while ignoring the rarity of said items, makes no sense.
In fact, these games generate money, by making those upper tier items as rare as humanly possibly. Not only are the items rare, they make the chance of you enchanting to +15 (+20 in black desert), an even more rare event.
In fact, it is almost always made so rare in Korean MMO, that the only way to get a full set of those items, is by involving the cash shop. The only way you can possibly inflate the RNG enough in your favor, is by buying out everyone else.
Post a topic that will get hits and instead of rational thought and discussion just argue a point endlessly.
If this is pay to win in their eyes they must really hate EQ. The same game they claimed to be playing the other day. As I you can buy Krono and sell it for in game currency. Which Kiyoris has stated is p2w.