Black Desert is pay 2 win.

zaberfangx · December 2015

Did anyone check the NA/EU Black Desert market place if it's up yet? if there end up selling the items or not? it's going buy to play not sure they will have this option or not as not needed try to sell you even more stuff when there a cost to get in the game.

MrSnuffles · December 2015

It's hilarious that we even need to discuss this.

How did we all end up here? I remember back in the days when people went ballistic over gold sellers and outright crucified everyone that bought gold.

When game companies saw how much money people are willing to spend to get an advantage (not win) and that they can't do much against gold selling they started to become the gold sellers themselves.

The term "pay to win" was not meant as literally winning something, it was meant as "pay to get an advantage" but as gamers and journalists love hyperbole it was called "pay to win".

It's simple: If you can convert real life money into in game currency the game is "pay to win".

jusomdude · December 2015

Seems p2w to me. What are the chances of losing the item without the cash shop enchant bonus stuff?

cribett · December 2015

This is there way of letting people not purchase items through the cash shop , this can also be done in countless other games . I swear some people just look for the any old excuse to have a good cry.
If there not selling items that offer a significant advantage over other people directly in game then its not P2W get over it.

People go and buy ingame gold through third party websites in pretty much any game why don't you make a thread about that.

zaberfangx · December 2015

MrSnuffles said:

It's hilarious that we even need to discuss this.

How did we all end up here? I remember back in the days when people went ballistic over gold sellers and outright crucified everyone that bought gold.

When game companies saw how much money people are willing to spend to get an advantage (not win) and that they can't do much against gold selling they started to become the gold sellers themselves.

The term "pay to win" was not meant as literally winning something, it was meant as "pay to get an advantage" but as gamers and journalists love hyperbole it was called "pay to win".

It's simple: If you can convert real life money into in game currency the game is "pay to win".

Can't forget when a game end up grinding alot for in game items, having more time is a advantage over people they may have to work more then other people. It's why gold farmer make money target the people that don't have alot the time to farm but have the time to play. MMO in general even sub games forget that and just why we have so many free to play games then sub games it's just time is a advantage. For some people easyer to pay the $30+ a month then sitting there 20 hours a week to farm the gold needed to raid for 6 hours a week. Things are costly, mats, pots, and even upgrades in a game this days.

ste2000 · December 2015

It is an issue in many games today and that's why I don't play MMO s at the moment.
In the majority of MMOs the Economy is run by the Cash Shop, and the system the OP describes is how it actually works.

It is a sad but apparently that's what the players want.

IsilithTehroth · December 2015

DMKano said:

IsilithTehroth said:

P2W trash any cashshop that gives any form of non cosmetic only item is P2W. There is Pay2advance, P2W and P2Skip. Another Acheage cashshop win scheme looks like. Sad thats all the market really is these days.

At least in Sub games they actively for the most part ban or punish those that RWT to gain advantages.

Cosmetic only item shop cannot generate enough profits to keep a game afloat in most cases - many who want this don't realize that if ALL games went *cosmetic item only route* - the vast majority of games would be shut down and game devs would be out of work - most would have to go find a job in a different industry, because a ton of game companies would cease to exist.

At least think about the long reaching consequences of this.

Yes a few games can pull it off where they are marginally profitable with cosmetic only shops - but most games are simply not designed for this model.

Says whom? You have have the finacial statistics to back your claim? Or are you just using the "Developers that need to eat" say they can't? The long reaching consquences aren't as reaching as you think since games were fine before cashshops; I cant believe anyone is that guilable and naive that they are willing to pay even more money than a sub because they nickle and dime you here and there.

I'd honestly rather have alot of companies to close down because they aren't advancing the genre any at all or pushing games further as evidence by the stagnant computer upgrades since 2010(besides GPUS).

Anyone that likes day 1 dlcs and cashshops are what is wrong with the industry in my opinion, but that is what this generation is all about; instant gratification without any effort. I have no respect for credit card warriors.

DMKano said:
Aelious said:
Gaming.Rocks said:
I understand this might be an issue for highly competitive players that want to be on the top 1%. But why would anyone else care? What can you really be "winning" in an MMO? Does anyone on thread ever been on top 1% in any game? Not trying to be insulting, just wondering why would you even care.

PvP

And the fact that it's not a 1v1 game - winning in a MMO group PvP is what exactly? Winning a battle one Saturday night? And then losing the next weekend - and winning again etc....

Guilds win and lose all the time in PvP MMOs - it's a constant ebb and flow, it's not like there are players who never lose period because we are talking group vs group here and that's a great equalizer when it comes to gear.

Except that this is not true. Take AoC or DCUO for example. A teir 1 pvp geared player vs a teir 10 will lose everytime and that teir 10 player will be able to kill 3-4 players on his own without a problem.

Gaming.Rocks2 · December 2015

IsilithTehroth said:

Except that this is not true. Take AoC or DCUO for example. A teir 1 pvp geared player vs a teir 10 will lose everytime and that teir 10 player will be able to kill 3-4 players on his own without a problem.

Let's focus on that part. You'll meet a player with way better gear than you. He beats the crap out of you. You'll feel ok if he has grinded the gear in months but you will feel pissed off if he has bought it with money? Why?

Maybe you say because he got it easy but it took me a long time to get the same.
So if the gear achievable by real money is attainable in 1 minute, it's not pay to win anymore. What about 1 hour? What about 1 week? What about 1 month?

How do you set that rule? How do you set a price for other players time? Someone might not mind to grind for a month to get an item, other might get pissed about 5 hours of grind.

And there are powerlevelers too. You can't stop them, in any way possible. How do you compete with them? So it's just about getting pissed about who is getting the money actually. I personally prefer the developers get the monies for golds and powerlevelings. Because it is happening anyways. And unless it's permadeath, no one is losing anything.

BTW I don't like cash-shops. I want them to cease to exist, even the cosmetic ones. Maybe I am a person who doesn't care about min/maxing my DPS in PvP. I like my looks, I like to collect mounts. So your pure cosmetic cash-shop is a complete P2W in my world.

karmath · December 2015

So it basicly Archeage? It will fail in 3 months or less. The economy will be fine in the first month then rapidly inflate in the second month causing everyone serious about the game to quit.

arunasme · December 2015

Wow OP... selling cash shop item to players for in-game gold to finance other in-game purchases, totally not happening in 99% of other games with micro transactions....Wake up, its soon 2016, this is how things roll now

Arkade99 · December 2015

jesusforgames said:

You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.

When did paying money become an acceptable alternative to playing the game?

Real money should never affect character power. Period.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

Nanfoodle said:

Some people have no clue what pay to win means. Lets make this simple. Paying money gives you an advantage over another player who does not use RL to get ahead. If you can earn what I bought, its not pay to win. As long as there is a top level set of gear that can only be earned. Who cares about starter gear.

No, because you also need to factor in time.
If it takes a month to grind something that can be bought now, then the one who bought is 1 month ahead gear wise. But what do you think? The guy who bought is satisfied and will just stagnate? No. He's going to also grind. So, it's now at end of 1 month. You have your 1 piece of gear, the spender has 2. He bought one and earned one over that month. Begin month 2. You start working on your 2nd piece, The Whale bought his 3rd and is working on his 4th.

When you combine this with the developers always adding new items, you will never, ever,................ever be on the same level with someone who uses the cash shop.........ever.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

DMKano said:

Aelious said:

Gaming.Rocks said:

I understand this might be an issue for highly competitive players that want to be on the top 1%. But why would anyone else care? What can you really be "winning" in an MMO? Does anyone on thread ever been on top 1% in any game? Not trying to be insulting, just wondering why would you even care.

PvP

And the fact that it's not a 1v1 game - winning in a MMO group PvP is what exactly? Winning a battle one Saturday night? And then losing the next weekend - and winning again etc....

Guilds win and lose all the time in PvP MMOs - it's a constant ebb and flow, it's not like there are players who never lose period because we are talking group vs group here and that's a great equalizer when it comes to gear.

Image: http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site234/2009/0313/20090313__orca.jpg

Avanah · December 2015

Kiyoris said:

Let me tell you the truth. Very few other people will.

Black Desert is Pay2Win.

To buy expensive items from the market, you buy cash shop items, sell those cash shop items on the market, and then buy items from each other.

This is how most of the economy works in Black Desert.

Basically, let's say you want to buy this ring from the market.

Ogre's ring, 63 million.

Either you grind for weeks, or.....

We buy "pearls" from the cash shop with real money.

We buy, let's say costumes, with pearls from cash shop.

Now we go back to the market and sell our costumes:

Now we can buy our RING.

Pay2Win.

If you can "Grind for weeks" it is NOT Pay 2 Win!

Since the item is available without paying, your point is moot.
Your post is based on a personal decision to Pay.

If you Pay then it's a choice. Doesn't make it pay to win, just makes you lazy.

95% of P2W are people who want instant gratification rather than enjoying the journey and earn something. Then when they see that their "shortcut" to Uberness cost money, they complain....Simple!

If the item was obtainable ONLY thru Cash shop and affects the game then it would be considered P2W.

In this case.....Not so.

viper1987 · December 2015

so then pay to cheat ? pffft

people wont admit korean mmos are t pay to win till you can achieve everything with cash

Jafeeio · December 2015

At the very least it is incredibly shady that this company has been selling founders packs for over a month when we don't even have a clear picture of what the final monetization and cash shop will look like.

I'm all for buy2play but I can't commit my money until I get the full picture.

nennafir · December 2015

EponyxDamor said:

If this is your example, GW2, EVE, SWToR, WildStar, WoW, etc. are also P2Win.

But all of the games you listed are pay to win...

tom_gore · December 2015

Ok so the definition of P2W today is "any game that allows you to blow craploads of real money to gain a slight advantage without grinding for said advantage"?

Jesus the crybabies these days. I guess they need any excuse not to accept that they might just suck in the game and no amount of RL cash would ever change that.

Kyleran · December 2015

coretex666 said:

OP's example is P2W as hell. I used to play a game like this a long time ago. It made me spend loads of RL cash on items from cash shop that I sold in the player market for ingame gold for which I bought equip in the player market. Those were the days

"Made" you spend loads of RL cash?

Or offered you a choice which you decided to act upon?

Pepeq · December 2015

So, player A decides to buy his way to the top and player B choses not to. Both end up at the top, only one has no game to play within 2 weeks of starting it and the other has months of game play still ahead of them.

Really, the argument that it takes forever to do something without using a cheat is no argument at all. It's a choice. You want to cheat? Go ahead cheat. You're only cheating yourself. You aren't even remotely being seen as the God you think you are... a fool maybe, but not a God.

Mensur · December 2015

Kiyoris said:

Let me tell you the truth. Very few other people will.

Black Desert is Pay2Win.

To buy expensive items from the market, you buy cash shop items, sell those cash shop items on the market, and then buy items from each other.

This is how most of the economy works in Black Desert.

Basically, let's say you want to buy this ring from the market.

Ogre's ring, 63 million.

Either you grind for weeks, or.....

We buy "pearls" from the cash shop with real money.

We buy, let's say costumes, with pearls from cash shop.

Now we go back to the market and sell our costumes:

Now we can buy our RING.

Pay2Win.

Those fuckin pearls! salty*

shalissar · December 2015

Pay2RNG is not only pay2win, but it's even worse because it pushes the advantage to either a lucky few or VERY rich people who have enough to brute force it. I never liked it and I could see the deceit the minute it was introduced as a way of decreasing the presence of the item in the game.

ballisticknife0 · December 2015

P2W or not, I still don't see anything that would make me want to switch to this game over my current game. I do keep up to date on the game's info just in case, by some strike of luck, something interesting actually pops up.

DAOWAce · December 2015

So basically it's Vindictus, another Korean MMORPG.

Nothing new here..

Besides, you can directly convert money in Guild Wars 2 without needing to sell anything on the market; that's more pay to win, isn't it? I don't see a storm about that.

linadragon · December 2015

*sigh* OP is a prime example of people without patience. The fact someone can buy cash shop items and trade them to get more gold does not magically make a game pay to win. It means they are paying for slight convenience. Grinding for awhile is not making it "impossible" in the least. It takes time to get to the top spot or basing things around money. This isn't the only means to earn more money etc. People need to stop this kind of BS that being able to earn money by selling cash shop items if they are tradeable is somehow ohh so horrendous...

This is not "pay to win" or pay2win (for you lazy asses that can't type 2 spaces and an extra letter). Pay2Win means directly selling stat perm stat altering potions, or selling gear through the cash shop. Players attaining money from other players for shit they want from the cash shop may mean a more casual player can have equal footing to players that are in the game for awhile as far as purchasing power and nothing else...

Stop trying to skew every freaking scenario that pops up as a matter of convenience into something it is not. You are still trading a player that has had to EARN that money somehow. They can't just go buy $ and have to earn it.

You may argue it is p2w or pay2win or pay to win all you like but by strict definition it is NOT in the least

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Black Desert is pay 2 win.

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Black Desert is pay 2 win.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

mmorpg junkie since 1999