It seems many haven't even read the OP. He is not talking about a right to play games for free, or paying for something and then changing your mind. He is talking about paying for a product and then being forced to spend more ( unless you want your time and initial money investment to go to waste) by shady P2W additions.
hmm .. no one is forced to do anything. I have played plenty of f2p. You always have the option of not buying anything, or quit the game.
Winning is a desire, is not a must, in playing a game.
You can get subscription fees back because some companies are nice
Because companies are nice?
What world do you live in.
The only reason companies are giving sub fees back is because:
A: People will chargeback otherwise, which result in fines for the company. And usually an investigation by the BBB or consumer groups if enough chargebacks happen.
B: Chargebacks results in legal problems after a while, which will result in people from the government and VISA, researching the cash shop, which could result in the company being accused of letting minors gamble money, which is illegal and can get executives jailtime.
It's the same reason why Apple is refunding app purchases from games targeting children. If they don't, they will get into lots of problems with many laws that prohibit enticing minors to spend money.
Apple has refunded millions of in-app purchases from addictive games, because when you target minors, you are in a completely different legal framework that can get you into lots of problems as a company. We know minors play MMO, we know they spend money on cash shops. MMO companies are scared as shit that they will be accused of targeting minors.
A: The BBB is a racket and is completely irrelevant. You can become a member of the BBB and your score magically goes up. This is a well known fact and no one gives a rats ass about the BBB.
Chargebacks are a two edged sword. If you charge back without a reason or your reason is ridiculous ("i don't like the colour of the unicorn") you will get fined faster than you can say VISA. If you do it often enough the bank will invalidate your credit card or even refuse further doing business with you. I run a business and people try this shit all the time. I can not count how many times i got the bank to side with me. More times than with the customer, that is for sure. Banks do cancel credit card contracts with customers that charge back without reasons or simply because they are over spending if it happens more than a specified amount. The amount depends on the credit card insurance company policies. If they suggest to drop that customer the Bank will do it.
B: You are confusing 2 very important things here. Seriously, you are smarter than that.
1. Mobile phone cash shops charging the phone bill. 2. Credit card/paypal required MMORPG cash shops.
Yes, the mobile phone exploitation of minors is a problem. This is not the case with MMORPG because if you have a credit card you are not a minor any more and you are responsible for your spending. End of story. If your child plays these games and spends money with their parents credit card the banks and judges will laugh you out of the court. It's your responsibility.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
You can get subscription fees back because some companies are nice
Because companies are nice?
What world do you live in.
The only reason companies are giving sub fees back is because:
A: People will chargeback otherwise, which result in fines for the company. And usually an investigation by the BBB or consumer groups if enough chargebacks happen.
B: Chargebacks results in legal problems after a while, which will result in people from the government and VISA, researching the cash shop, which could result in the company being accused of letting minors gamble money, which is illegal and can get executives jailtime.
It's the same reason why Apple is refunding app purchases from games targeting children. If they don't, they will get into lots of problems with many laws that prohibit enticing minors to spend money.
Apple has refunded millions of in-app purchases from addictive games, because when you target minors, you are in a completely different legal framework that can get you into lots of problems as a company. We know minors play MMO, we know they spend money on cash shops. MMO companies are scared as shit that they will be accused of targeting minors.
A: The BBB is a racket and is completely irrelevant. You can become a member of the BBB and your score magically goes up. This is a well known fact and no one gives a rats ass about the BBB.
Chargebacks are a two edged sword. If you charge back without a reason or your reason is ridiculous ("i don't like the colour of the unicorn") you will get fined faster than you can say VISA. If you do it often enough the bank will invalidate your credit card or even refuse further doing business with you. I run a business and people try this shit all the time. I can not count how many times i got the bank to side with me. More times than with the customer, that is for sure. Banks do cancel credit card contracts with customers that charge back without reasons or simply because they are over spending if it happens more than a specified amount. The amount depends on the credit card insurance company policies. If they suggest to drop that customer the Bank will do it.
B: You are confusing 2 very important things here. Seriously, you are smarter than that.
1. Mobile phone cash shops charging the phone bill. 2. Credit card/paypal required MMORPG cash shops.
Yes, the mobile phone exploitation of minors is a problem. This is not the case with MMORPG because if you have a credit card you are not a minor any more and you are responsible for your spending. End of story. If your child plays these games and spends money with their parents credit card the banks and judges will laugh you out of the court. It's your responsibility.
If you do a chargeback on a game, expect to be perma-banned from that game. And possibly any other games that your account is connected to if the company can track you from one game to another.
Developing a game need money , and its also a job so you need to get some returns and since people tend to steal and crack games even more then before .... Well they just needed to find a way to get some profits , if people didnt cheat and steal from the start i doubt they would have been a need for this.
You really need to understand companies don't need to call you to change a product. You don't like their change you have two options.
1) Stop playing
2) keep playing and adapt
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
"Bait and switch" is not a legal term it is called "false advertising".
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY:
Title 15 U.S. Code § 54 - Standard of proof; public policy considerations
The Commission shall have no authority under this section or section 57a of this title to declare unlawful an act or practice on the grounds that such act or practice is unfair unless the act or practice causes or is likely to cause substantial injury to consumers which is not reasonably avoidable by consumers themselves and not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers or to competition. In determining whether an act or practice is unfair, the Commission may consider established public policies as evidence to be considered with all other evidence. Such public policy considerations may not serve as a primary basis for such determination.
Let's see here. We have the following requirements:
1. Causes or is likely to cause SUBSTANTIAL INJURY TO CONSUMERS which is not REASONABLY AVOIDABLE BY CONSUMERS. 2. Not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers.
I really want to see you argue with the court that a cash shop in a computer game has caused you substantial injury which was not reasonably avoidable by you. Hilarious!
TLDR: False Advertising in laymen's terms: "Did you get substantially injured by this cash shop change? If your answer is no and if you just don't like the cash shop you can avoid the game, now get the fuck out of my court!"
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
If you do a chargeback on a game, expect to be perma-banned from that game. And possibly any other games that your account is connected to if the company can track you from one game to another.
Oh right! I forgot that little nugget! You probably NEVER play any of that publishers games ever again.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
The only thing that really should be regulated by the government is the right to own a game. Once you purchased a game it is yours and you should be able to resell it both the hard copy or the digital copy. Also you should be able to play a single player game without internet connection.
Everything else is up to the player requirement to do some research before they give money to the game developers, you can't rely on the government to spoon feed you every step of the way.
I would add one more thing to that. I think there should be regulations on what developers can sell that doesn't exist yet. Right now, it's too easy to "Take the money and run"
IF you're referring to crowd-funding, then you're essentially trying to regulate what folks can donate toward, which is not so cut and dry.
It seems many haven't even read the OP. He is not talking about a right to play games for free, or paying for something and then changing your mind. He is talking about paying for a product and then being forced to spend more ( unless you want your time and initial money investment to go to waste) by shady P2W additions.
hmm .. no one is forced to do anything. I have played plenty of f2p. You always have the option of not buying anything, or quit the game.
Winning is a desire, is not a must, in playing a game.
For me an almost level playing field is a must to enjoy a game. I believe for most people at least occasionally winning is a must as well, but that's not the point.
Some people are more skilled than me. That's not fair.
Some people have more free time than me. That's not fair.
An entirely level playing field is never going to happen apart from games that are pure random chance. The real question is how it will be unlevel--and which types of things making a playing field unlevel are acceptable.
The OP is so full of I would surprised if their eyes are brown. If the games you're bitching about are F2P and you didn't pay anything to be able to download, you don't pay a sub then STFU. Most if not all of these outfits are businesses and you can't run a business on charity. So they have to come up with some kind of revenue stream. How long do you think these games would stay up if they had no money to pay the electric, internet and other services they would need to keep those servers up? Not very damn long. So take you gamer's bill rights and shove it where the sun don't shine because I don't believe you have a damn legal leg to stand on if you are bitching about F2P where you didn't even have to pay to get the game to start with.
ok...imagine your self in a court of law standing up in front a judge just up the block from the police station that put an armed gunman to jail for stealing at a store.
the judge asks you
'exactly what are you asking the court of law to 'protect' you from, because I have a terrorism trial up next so can you get to your point?"
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
as I have said in the past 'if a theoritical model of a free market system can not exist in gaming then it can not exist anywhere'
consumer protection laws are usually reserved for Health and Safety and very large purchase. Not movies......ummm games
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If they claim the game won't be pay 2 win, and it becomes pay 2 win, they are violating laws.
"Bait-and-switch marketing techniques are dishonest.
In fact, in many countries true “bait and switch” has been made illegal
through different forms of consumer protection legislation. In the United States, consumers can file a lawsuit against a
marketer for false advertising if they’re using the technique."
P2W has no legal definition, how in the hell do you regulate such a thing from a governmental standpoint? Do you know how many areas what you're complaining about exists in? Money for advantage is normal, it is not regulated against, it is a non-issue as far as governments as well courts. Pay it or don't, fall into the line your decision puts you in...
As long as it's not regulated, it's a question about agreement between the publisher and the consumer buying their game. Not regulated doesn't mean no rules, or no government enforcement, not regulated means that the parties are free to agree whatever they want. And agreement isn't limited to the EULA, TOS, etc. that you click "I agree" to, marketing information given by publisher is also a part of the agreement when you buy the game.
Government might at some point pass regulations on P2W, but I think it's very unlikely.
More likely it'll be taken to courts at some point, and courts will determine what do publisher and consumer mean when they agree that the game is "not pay to win", and whether that's something that can be enforced by law.
There are regulations. They must deliver what they advertise and what you paid for. They aren't regulated on what they charge and governments aren't likely to enter that fight because it's a pointless never ending endeavor. Where does it stop?
Right now a lot of newly released Blu-Ray movies have gone up to $25. They're packaged with a digital copy through UltraViolet or Disney Anywhere, but the fact is that most newly released titles have gone up quite a bit. I used to buy more when they were cheaper, and I think that's too expensive. I could wait and watch it for free on Netflix or Amazon, but I'm forced to pay if I want to watch now. If I just buy the disc and later want to upgrade to include a digital copy I have to pay nearly the full price for the movie. Should the government step in and regulate that? What a mess of who is right and who is entitled to what. How is that decided? What would be the long term consequences?
These aren't essential services we're talking about. These are luxury bits of entertainment.
You do remember that ten years ago, you used to pay $30+ for a dvd, right? It's still cheaper than it was then. Though the price of everything is going up.
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
as I have said in the past 'if a theoritical model of a free market system can not exist in gaming then it can not exist anywhere'
consumer protection laws are usually reserved for Health and Safety and very large purchase. Not movies......ummm games
And maybe that should be considered a problem. Because right now, the market isn't "free" it's "pay or die".
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
Consumer protection in entertainment? That is laughable. Do you want protection from bad movies, and bad novels too?
We are not talking about health, or essentials here. We are talking about entertainment which is highly subjected to personal tastes. And there is protection .. namely .. you are not forced to play any games.
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
as I have said in the past 'if a theoritical model of a free market system can not exist in gaming then it can not exist anywhere'
consumer protection laws are usually reserved for Health and Safety and very large purchase. Not movies......ummm games
And maybe that should be considered a problem. Because right now, the market isn't "free" it's "pay or die".
To be clear I am NOT an advocate of free markets I think free markets can cause buildings to literally burn.
Having said that free market by its definition allows for zero consumer protection AND allows companies to 'pay or die' as it where.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It seems many haven't even read the OP. He is not talking about a right to play games for free, or paying for something and then changing your mind. He is talking about paying for a product and then being forced to spend more ( unless you want your time and initial money investment to go to waste) by shady P2W additions.
hmm .. no one is forced to do anything. I have played plenty of f2p. You always have the option of not buying anything, or quit the game.
Winning is a desire, is not a must, in playing a game.
For me an almost level playing field is a must to enjoy a game. I believe for most people at least occasionally winning is a must as well, but that's not the point.
What does that have to do with the premise of this thread? You expect litigation to preserve what you find fun, or would agree to play/pay?
That seems to be the root here for most, preservation... not protection.. as you want to preserve what you find acceptable to spend money on. It would at least explain the lack of thinking in many of these responses, as more thought would lead to seeing most of these complaints, P2W ( purchasable advantage), Pre-sales (ships, currency, extras..) etc.. have been widespread far before they made their way to gaming, in other words they invaded your personal hobby... Which leads to emotional reaction, not thought...
Why would they regulate advantages in PVP, why would they regulate pre-sales in just gaming when it's common in most forms of industry? Why would they begin to attempt to regulate preserving a certain type of consumer's "fun"?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Entertainment is just like any other business. It's not just about protecting the companies, it's also about protecting the consumers. If there aren't laws, then maybe it's time there is.
It seems many haven't even read the OP. He is not talking about a right to play games for free, or paying for something and then changing your mind. He is talking about paying for a product and then being forced to spend more ( unless you want your time and initial money investment to go to waste) by shady P2W additions.
hmm .. no one is forced to do anything. I have played plenty of f2p. You always have the option of not buying anything, or quit the game.
Winning is a desire, is not a must, in playing a game.
For me an almost level playing field is a must to enjoy a game. I believe for most people at least occasionally winning is a must as well, but that's not the point.
Surely you must consider some things a must in playing games. What if a company promises all those "musts" for an initial price, but then starts charging for them? Keep in mind those "musts" are the most likely to make people pay for them.
hmm .. no dev is obligated to provide a level playing field for you. Nor they are obligated to keep their service unchanged.
You are, of course, free not to play, or if you played, quit at any time. It is a simple commercial transaction. You like the entertainment product, you use it. Otherwise, not.
As you can see from the replies defending the behavior of the company... in the US, anything regarding money goes. There are very few protections for consumers, and there has been a hard core push to remove what protections there are. You will likely never get the protections you want because here, money rules. Even if it works against the best interest of the buyers. There is a rather significant part of the population that defends it.
It's not really defending, when it's reality.... Most of these issues aren't worth the time to print the word regulation on a piece of paper...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People in the US demanding a stop to F2P... But decides to keep the guns... Now i understand that most of the US is a para-military wasteland of small rowing gangs... But perhaps there are more important places to ask for more regulations than the cash-shop and digital marketplacers of games.... just saying.
Entertainment is just like any other business. It's not just about protecting the companies, it's also about protecting the consumers. If there aren't laws, then maybe it's time there is.
Laws based on what exactly? Fraud is already covered.. what else do people need protection from in video games?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Winning is a desire, is not a must, in playing a game.
Chargebacks are a two edged sword. If you charge back without a reason or your reason is ridiculous ("i don't like the colour of the unicorn") you will get fined faster than you can say VISA. If you do it often enough the bank will invalidate your credit card or even refuse further doing business with you. I run a business and people try this shit all the time. I can not count how many times i got the bank to side with me. More times than with the customer, that is for sure. Banks do cancel credit card contracts with customers that charge back without reasons or simply because they are over spending if it happens more than a specified amount. The amount depends on the credit card insurance company policies. If they suggest to drop that customer the Bank will do it.
B: You are confusing 2 very important things here. Seriously, you are smarter than that.
1. Mobile phone cash shops charging the phone bill.
2. Credit card/paypal required MMORPG cash shops.
Yes, the mobile phone exploitation of minors is a problem. This is not the case with MMORPG because if you have a credit card you are not a minor any more and you are responsible for your spending. End of story. If your child plays these games and spends money with their parents credit card the banks and judges will laugh you out of the court. It's your responsibility.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY:
Title 15 U.S. Code § 54 - Standard of proof; public policy considerations
The Commission shall have no authority under this section or section 57a of this title to declare unlawful an act or practice on the grounds that such act or practice is unfair unless the act or practice causes or is likely to cause substantial injury to consumers which is not reasonably avoidable by consumers themselves and not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers or to competition. In determining whether an act or practice is unfair, the Commission may consider established public policies as evidence to be considered with all other evidence. Such public policy considerations may not serve as a primary basis for such determination.
Let's see here. We have the following requirements:
1. Causes or is likely to cause SUBSTANTIAL INJURY TO CONSUMERS which is not REASONABLY AVOIDABLE BY CONSUMERS.
2. Not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers.
I really want to see you argue with the court that a cash shop in a computer game has caused you substantial injury which was not reasonably avoidable by you. Hilarious!
TLDR: False Advertising in laymen's terms: "Did you get substantially injured by this cash shop change? If your answer is no and if you just don't like the cash shop you can avoid the game, now get the fuck out of my court!"
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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Thanks Quizzical.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Some people have more free time than me. That's not fair.
An entirely level playing field is never going to happen apart from games that are pure random chance. The real question is how it will be unlevel--and which types of things making a playing field unlevel are acceptable.
the judge asks you
'exactly what are you asking the court of law to 'protect' you from, because I have a terrorism trial up next so can you get to your point?"
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
We are not talking about health, or essentials here. We are talking about entertainment which is highly subjected to personal tastes. And there is protection .. namely .. you are not forced to play any games.
Having said that free market by its definition allows for zero consumer protection AND allows companies to 'pay or die' as it where.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That seems to be the root here for most, preservation... not protection.. as you want to preserve what you find acceptable to spend money on. It would at least explain the lack of thinking in many of these responses, as more thought would lead to seeing most of these complaints, P2W ( purchasable advantage), Pre-sales (ships, currency, extras..) etc.. have been widespread far before they made their way to gaming, in other words they invaded your personal hobby... Which leads to emotional reaction, not thought...
Why would they regulate advantages in PVP, why would they regulate pre-sales in just gaming when it's common in most forms of industry? Why would they begin to attempt to regulate preserving a certain type of consumer's "fun"?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are, of course, free not to play, or if you played, quit at any time. It is a simple commercial transaction. You like the entertainment product, you use it. Otherwise, not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People in the US demanding a stop to F2P... But decides to keep the guns... Now i understand that most of the US is a para-military wasteland of small rowing gangs... But perhaps there are more important places to ask for more regulations than the cash-shop and digital marketplacers of games.... just saying.
This have been a good conversation
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson