It's the typical "game depth vs. realism" argument. Most players want their skill to be challenged by a game, while others want shallow, repetitive realism.
I want my games to be interesting and fun. Realism is secondary.
If i magically get a new mechanics as a skill by level 10, and that makes the game interesting, i say go for it.
In general I prefer "non-linear" progression as well as "horizontal" progression. This is not to say I don't want characters to become stronger, just that there is more merit to me in using a progression system to tailor a character over time from a generic form into a personal design.
1 - Non-Linear simply refers at it's fundamental to the equivalent of "no hard classes". The use of templates and guiding structures for people to follow in creating archetypes could and should be available and the natural state for the system to be in, but players should have the freedom to turn the guides off and explore the game's mechanics in a free-form manner.
2 - Horizontal progression means that as the character "levels" they won't be becoming statistically all that much more powerful, so much as they are gaining access to more and more options to specialize in and refine their character with. There may be some overall progress vertically with a larger skill point pool, but the main mode of progress comes from gaining the ability to re-balance the players stats to more extreme ends and utilize unlocked perks and abilities to fulfill an intended design, role, or purpose.
Gaining experience could be done as a global element, with the points put into unlocking different things within trees for the horizontal progression method. However there is the potential for secondary elements like tagging preferred abilities or being given a bonus or special perk in a few of your most used skills.
The "trees" mentioned are a pretty familiar component. All it's doing is putting the most generic iteration of any ability, stat distribution, perk, or weapon/item class at the top of a tree and branching into more unique and extreme options as you progress down the different paths. None of them exist as particularly exclusive of each-other, but you can implement certain soft controls for balance like making certain combinations more expensive to have.
Beyond this, I would perhaps refer to how Saga of Ryzom built the abilities in their game. When you unlocked a power it came with sub-components that you also gained access to. This allowed you to do into an ability editor/creator and make new powers out of the components you had access to. Similar in concept to creating a spell in previous Elder Scrolls titles.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I think Asherons Call had a really good skill system. you get so many points to spend to train skills then as you level up you can earn more of these points to pick up other skills. ( you cant get everything on one character )
then you use xp you earn by doing quest or killing mobs to raise those skills to make them more powerful.
when you kill a mob you get xp towards your level plus you get xp that collects into a pool called unassigned xp. that unassigned xp is used to raise any skill you want or your health/stam/mana or other attributes such as strength quick coordination and so on.
There is more to the skill system but im not going to write a page on how it works. this just kind of sums it up.
The level systems seem a bit bland to me. I would say it's bland because you never really have to concentrate on the profession you choose in the game your playing. You can level up in anything and then choose to be a master at something else. If you aren't interested in what a certain profession does why put points int it?
Most games use that type of system where you gain a level and can contribute points to it. This is fine for a game based on short instances and combat only. For a virtual world with lots characters playing different non combat roles it's no good though. You need to have progression by usage IMO. Of course most MMOs are not virtual worlds.
EQ had and even WoW (vanilla) had a combination of traditional leveling and skill increase by usage.
Best system I've ever played so far is the one found in ESO: You get skill points from leveling, from exploration (sky shards) and from some quest lines. You can then spend those skill points on class-specific active and passive skills, crafting skills, weapon skills, non-class specific active and passive skills.
But you can't add skill points to skills you haven't unlocked yet. You unlock some by using skills of that type, some by running dungeons (undaunted), some by doing the main quest line (soul,) some by advancing a guild's skill line by whatever method they use (finding lore books for mage's, killing undead and daedra for Fighters, etc.,) by picking locks and stealing (Legerdemain,) by PVPing, etc.
ESO has some warts and isn't perfect by any means but their skill progression is as good and varied as it gets.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
EvE online is the best for both casual and hardcore players. You accumulate skill points in real time whether you are logged on or not, then you spend it as you please. It is a win win for everyone and narrows the gap between hardcore and casual players.
I found when I did the 14 day trial with Eve, I spent most of my time logged off as I waited for my skills to improve. Personally, I want play a game, not log off and progress.
OT: I am a fan of "You use it, it improves" skill progression. I never understood how my gaining a level improved skills I never used, "just because."
EvE online is the best for both casual and hardcore players. You accumulate skill points in real time whether you are logged on or not, then you spend it as you please. It is a win win for everyone and narrows the gap between hardcore and casual players.
I found when I did the 14 day trial with Eve, I spent most of my time logged off as I waited for my skills to improve. Personally, I want play a game, not log off and progress.
OT: I am a fan of "You use it, it improves" skill progression. I never understood how my gaining a level improved skills I never used, "just because."
It's a shame you weren't adventurous enough to go do stuff in EVE. After the career agents, I went straight to low-sec FW plexes in my trusty frigate and got blown up. Made enough from the plexes in my first week to afford hundres of frigates. I wish CCP did a better job of getting new players out of hi-sec.
EvE online is the best for both casual and hardcore players. You accumulate skill points in real time whether you are logged on or not, then you spend it as you please. It is a win win for everyone and narrows the gap between hardcore and casual players.
I found when I did the 14 day trial with Eve, I spent most of my time logged off as I waited for my skills to improve. Personally, I want play a game, not log off and progress.
OT: I am a fan of "You use it, it improves" skill progression. I never understood how my gaining a level improved skills I never used, "just because."
It's a shame you weren't adventurous enough to go do stuff in EVE. After the career agents, I went straight to low-sec FW plexes in my trusty frigate and got blown up. Made enough from the plexes in my first week to afford hundres of frigates. I wish CCP did a better job of getting new players out of hi-sec.
It's really sad that I was unable to do most things, due to low skills. I had 3 or 4 missions in my log. All with skills needed above what I had. And what I heard about EVE gave me no inclination to "explore" and die repeatedly.
EvE online is the best for both casual and hardcore players. You accumulate skill points in real time whether you are logged on or not, then you spend it as you please. It is a win win for everyone and narrows the gap between hardcore and casual players.
That is quite misleading. You do not accumulate points then spend them as you please. The points are never saved in a pool for later use. Skills slowly increase over time in an assigned queue and if you leave the queue empty then no skill is trained and that time is wasted.
ESO had a hybrid system where all the skills on the skillbar would increase as you gained exp. Mortal Online had you use the skills and they would increase. I believe Mortal Online and ESO systems were the best. Oh I forgot about Everquest 1 and UO.
A lot of great ideas in this thread, including the OP ones. I wont give any ideas but i will say one thing...
Regardless of skill progression system, i expect to choose whatever weapon i want and have a different experience based on the weapon i choose. GW2 and ESO spoiled me on that. If you come to me with a new mmorpg where a class revolves entirely on a single weapon you can keep your game.
Skill points on usage of said skills is great for something like you said, swing a sword, get better at using swords.
Then I like that "ding" moment of leveling up and applying points to better your character. Can be used in conjunction with the above so that when you level up you get to apply stat points like +strength etc. but your sword use is still dictated by your sword skill - you could also allow additional stat point increases when you hit milestones for skills like every 20 points you get in your sword skill you get +1 strength, that kind of thing.
Then finally, I think having a time-based progression for more "learning" book-smarts kind of skills would be a cool 3rd leg on a hybrid system. Stuff like beast lore or anatomy or meditation etc. you could set to be your "passive" skill gain, which you increase in real-time.
You can RP that as your character is studying when you are not logged in, sitting at the inn kind of a thing.
I loved the skill system and skillsystem progression from asherons call where you gained some points towards the skill you used in action and some where saved in skillpoint pool. This worked wery good in this game since you were able to use those points to rais base skills like intellect ,strength and stuff that are not directly involved ind your actions.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
You know why noone has come close to replicating it? because UO suffered from the same issues 8-bit, 16-bit and older games had which actually worked to their advantage. With such limited technology they HAD to make a fun game to survive. Now that the tech is there, companies just focus on graphics and cash shops. My 2 cents.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
Yes and it also allowed you to respec your character. I don't remember exacts as it was a long time ago, but there were a certain amount of skills that could be maxed out. Once you got passed that point one of your own skills would start going down. I took a lot of things for granted in those days. It's only later I realize that they were actually pretty good systems.
I reckon SWG pre NGE's progression is probably the most flexible system and allow for the greatest diversity.
Fixed number of points, each level of skills takes a certain number of points, you can pick any skills and trees from any basic professions you want but most higher skills has prerequisite of certain lower skills. You can go into advanced professions but that would also require maxing out a certain tree or combination of skills first.
It is designed to provide you advancement based on what skills you use and what contribution was given to the your realm's progress in RvR. You gain various rewards such as xp, gold, awards, etc each day through a report. It will not list individual contributions but only your entire realm's progression. There are many individual methods to boost your own advancement (through many systems in game ranging from crafting, non-combat and combat related tasks).
The end result is you can assist your realm in the "war" in nearly any way, when you want, how you want. There are no quest hubs or linear path to progress minus obvious methods to train new players. The game is largely horizontal in progression and even new players can enter all areas of RvR and/or crafting and resource collection.
Obviously this is build specifically for this game but progression should be built specifically for all games. This system is designed to build upon the realm pride principle and allow players to play the game with no constraints to play style (other than playing the game for what it is ... an RvR game).
Far, far too many times (basically most mmos) I find I am doing little more than being forced to advance in ways I do not want and being blocked out of content I wish to participate mostly due to how progression works. CU hopes to this system removes those barriers to play and contributes to the goal of the game.
When kids choose "Every action raises it's own skill points", they think they will have 50 skills maxed through the roof. In fact most gamers only use four skill ever, and only progress halfway to max. They will never be the Lock Picking, Plate Mail, Duel Wielding, Fire Ball Casting, Self Healing, Blacksmith, Enchanter, Backstabbing, Necromancer of their dreams.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
This is exactly what Mortal Online did and no one plays it so I guess it wasn't that important.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have attributes tied to your skills like UO? If you are casting spells your intellect goes up. If you are a blacksmith your strength goes up. If you are using a bow or stealing your dexterity goes up. That just seems to both make more sense and be more interesting to me. Assigning points on level up is kind of zzz. It's like I just cast a bunch of spells, but now I'm going to put points into strength.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
This is exactly what Mortal Online did and no one plays it so I guess it wasn't that important.
Or there are/were other reasons the masses didn't like it.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
Because players don't want to click on a rock 1000 times to level up mining, and click on a tree 1000 times to level up chopping wood?
The reason is simple. People play games for fun, not to do virtual work. Writing 1000 times to level up penmanship is also "realistic" but i doubt that will ever make into a video game.
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
Because players don't want to click on a rock 1000 times to level up mining, and click on a tree 1000 times to level up chopping wood?
The reason is simple. People play games for fun, not to do virtual work. Writing 1000 times to level up penmanship is also "realistic" but i doubt that will ever make into a video game.
been done UO Inscription, quite useful skill to boot
Amazing how many things in UO just made sense... and for some reason no one has been able to come close to replicating.
Because players don't want to click on a rock 1000 times to level up mining, and click on a tree 1000 times to level up chopping wood?
The reason is simple. People play games for fun, not to do virtual work. Writing 1000 times to level up penmanship is also "realistic" but i doubt that will ever make into a video game.
been done UO Inscription, quite useful skill to boot
and you enjoy clicking 1000 times just to level a skill up?
Kudos to you. Personally i cannot stand that kind of boredom in my entertainment, but hey, that is just me.
Comments
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If i magically get a new mechanics as a skill by level 10, and that makes the game interesting, i say go for it.
1 - Non-Linear simply refers at it's fundamental to the equivalent of "no hard classes". The use of templates and guiding structures for people to follow in creating archetypes could and should be available and the natural state for the system to be in, but players should have the freedom to turn the guides off and explore the game's mechanics in a free-form manner.
2 - Horizontal progression means that as the character "levels" they won't be becoming statistically all that much more powerful, so much as they are gaining access to more and more options to specialize in and refine their character with. There may be some overall progress vertically with a larger skill point pool, but the main mode of progress comes from gaining the ability to re-balance the players stats to more extreme ends and utilize unlocked perks and abilities to fulfill an intended design, role, or purpose.
Gaining experience could be done as a global element, with the points put into unlocking different things within trees for the horizontal progression method. However there is the potential for secondary elements like tagging preferred abilities or being given a bonus or special perk in a few of your most used skills.
The "trees" mentioned are a pretty familiar component. All it's doing is putting the most generic iteration of any ability, stat distribution, perk, or weapon/item class at the top of a tree and branching into more unique and extreme options as you progress down the different paths. None of them exist as particularly exclusive of each-other, but you can implement certain soft controls for balance like making certain combinations more expensive to have.
Beyond this, I would perhaps refer to how Saga of Ryzom built the abilities in their game. When you unlocked a power it came with sub-components that you also gained access to. This allowed you to do into an ability editor/creator and make new powers out of the components you had access to. Similar in concept to creating a spell in previous Elder Scrolls titles.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
then you use xp you earn by doing quest or killing mobs to raise those skills to make them more powerful.
when you kill a mob you get xp towards your level plus you get xp that collects into a pool called unassigned xp. that unassigned xp is used to raise any skill you want or your health/stam/mana or other attributes such as strength quick coordination and so on.
There is more to the skill system but im not going to write a page on how it works. this just kind of sums it up.
Most games use that type of system where you gain a level and can contribute points to it. This is fine for a game based on short instances and combat only. For a virtual world with lots characters playing different non combat roles it's no good though. You need to have progression by usage IMO. Of course most MMOs are not virtual worlds.
EQ had and even WoW (vanilla) had a combination of traditional leveling and skill increase by usage.
But you can't add skill points to skills you haven't unlocked yet. You unlock some by using skills of that type, some by running dungeons (undaunted), some by doing the main quest line (soul,) some by advancing a guild's skill line by whatever method they use (finding lore books for mage's, killing undead and daedra for Fighters, etc.,) by picking locks and stealing (Legerdemain,) by PVPing, etc.
ESO has some warts and isn't perfect by any means but their skill progression is as good and varied as it gets.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
OT: I am a fan of "You use it, it improves" skill progression. I never understood how my gaining a level improved skills I never used, "just because."
VG
VG
That is quite misleading. You do not accumulate points then spend them as you please. The points are never saved in a pool for later use. Skills slowly increase over time in an assigned queue and if you leave the queue empty then no skill is trained and that time is wasted.
ESO had a hybrid system where all the skills on the skillbar would increase as you gained exp. Mortal Online had you use the skills and they would increase. I believe Mortal Online and ESO systems were the best. Oh I forgot about Everquest 1 and UO.
Regardless of skill progression system, i expect to choose whatever weapon i want and have a different experience based on the weapon i choose. GW2 and ESO spoiled me on that. If you come to me with a new mmorpg where a class revolves entirely on a single weapon you can keep your game.
Skill points on usage of said skills is great for something like you said, swing a sword, get better at using swords.
Then I like that "ding" moment of leveling up and applying points to better your character. Can be used in conjunction with the above so that when you level up you get to apply stat points like +strength etc. but your sword use is still dictated by your sword skill - you could also allow additional stat point increases when you hit milestones for skills like every 20 points you get in your sword skill you get +1 strength, that kind of thing.
Then finally, I think having a time-based progression for more "learning" book-smarts kind of skills would be a cool 3rd leg on a hybrid system. Stuff like beast lore or anatomy or meditation etc. you could set to be your "passive" skill gain, which you increase in real-time.
You can RP that as your character is studying when you are not logged in, sitting at the inn kind of a thing.
Fixed number of points, each level of skills takes a certain number of points, you can pick any skills and trees from any basic professions you want but most higher skills has prerequisite of certain lower skills. You can go into advanced professions but that would also require maxing out a certain tree or combination of skills first.
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/bsc-design-docs/progression-system/
It is designed to provide you advancement based on what skills you use and what contribution was given to the your realm's progress in RvR. You gain various rewards such as xp, gold, awards, etc each day through a report. It will not list individual contributions but only your entire realm's progression. There are many individual methods to boost your own advancement (through many systems in game ranging from crafting, non-combat and combat related tasks).
The end result is you can assist your realm in the "war" in nearly any way, when you want, how you want. There are no quest hubs or linear path to progress minus obvious methods to train new players. The game is largely horizontal in progression and even new players can enter all areas of RvR and/or crafting and resource collection.
Obviously this is build specifically for this game but progression should be built specifically for all games. This system is designed to build upon the realm pride principle and allow players to play the game with no constraints to play style (other than playing the game for what it is ... an RvR game).
Far, far too many times (basically most mmos) I find I am doing little more than being forced to advance in ways I do not want and being blocked out of content I wish to participate mostly due to how progression works. CU hopes to this system removes those barriers to play and contributes to the goal of the game.
You stay sassy!
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
This is exactly what Mortal Online did and no one plays it so I guess it wasn't that important.
The reason is simple. People play games for fun, not to do virtual work. Writing 1000 times to level up penmanship is also "realistic" but i doubt that will ever make into a video game.
Kudos to you. Personally i cannot stand that kind of boredom in my entertainment, but hey, that is just me.