I think games in general should not jump from single player to mmo instantly. It's one thing to design a MMO from scratch. But when you want to keep the original gest and cater to both the IP fans and mmo players taking that huge step does not work for me. I'm not saying games like FFXIV or ESO are bad games. But their single player franchise were vastly better games. So why make somethinh less good?
On the other hand Skyrim 2 with co-op option would've been a much greater game in my opinion. @loke666 be that as it may, a full AAA budget western MMO failure might put the final nail in the coffin of the genre though. Not sure FO would be the right choice for that.
I am not sure it would fail even if it were close to ESO.... First of all would the game not release until 2021 if they started developing it now. And 2021 the competiotion would be ancient western AAA games, cheap crowdfunded games and Asian MMOs... Not that tough to compete with. Secondly have Zenimax and Bethesda hopefully learned at least some things from ESO.
But I agree that Fallout isn't really perfect for a MMO, very few single player games are. It would make an awesome CORPG though. Many good games would make aweful MMOs, take the witcher, an online version would lose the soul of the series and same thing probably would happen with fallout.
But if the alternative is no more western AAA MMOs (and while Pantheon and a few others seems really good they lack the budget of being more than AA games) then it still would be best.
I have the hope that VR MMOs might reboot the genre, people in Japan are already crying for it after animes like SAO, .HACK signs, overlord and not the least Log horizon (you should watch that one) and that might hopefully spread to the west as well. Otherwise is our only hope that a kickstarter game will become huge and get loads of money poored into it when it becomes popular turning it into a real AAA game and get investors to notice the genre again.
Not sure why folks would feel Fallout wouldn't make for a good MMORPG set piece. Existing properties are the easiest types of MMORPGs to pull off, the more popular the IP the better, it's pretty obvious why. It's simply much easier to invest yourself into from a character standpoint. You have preset motivations, preset knowledge of the world as well as stories within, understanding of the archetypes available, as well most likely understand the factional differences if there are any.
Original IP's can be successful (EVE and EQ are two examples). Yet face a much higher chance of losing folks before they truly invest in the ideas ( both in lore as well as game-play) at work within game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
GeezerGamer said:
There are a lot of things that MMORPG developers can learn from Single player games. But I don't think they will translate as well as people think. I have over 4000 hours in Skyrim. I've playe modded and un modded. I've played almost every imaginable build under both categories. I know about where and what power levels should be for each type of build relative to the games difficulty. I can say with confidence. To change Skyrim to a balanced MMORPG would require so many sacrifices that the final produce would not even resemble the original SPRPG
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I actually don't think it would. Or at least it depends on one's point of view.
I only have about 1,300 hours or so but in that time I've thought about what could have been done to make an "mmo" version.
It wouldn't be to anyone's liking but I think the original Guild Wars system where the world is instanced to the party would work. Alternately, the world is not instanced but every cave, dungeon, etc would be instanced to the party.
This is not what people usually want when they think of mmo but it could allow multiplayer in an Elder Scrolls world.
We already have Elder Scrolls in an open world, far better than Skyrim which has clunky controls and very on rails questing. The best you could do and still keep the single player would be to coop like Borderlands. ESO is Elder Scrolls done right in an MMO setting.
How would it be better to MMO-ify Skyrim? There would be no mods. It would be open ffa pvp. People could kill your quest giver. Skyrim is open world in that you can wander and try to do what you want, but it's tightly bound and on rails where the narrative is concerned. Want to do these quests? You have to become a werewolf - that's the only way forward or you miss out on a huge chunk.
Well that's your opinion and you are welcome to it (dont' mean to sound harsh I just don't agree). I was responding to GeezerGamer's statment about taking what essentially makes skyrim and putting it into an mmo setting.
I don't believe ESO is Elder Scrolls done "right" in an mmo setting.
I don't care about mods in an mmo so non-issue. It would not have to be ffa pvp but if it was I wouldn't care.
As I mentioned, the only way I could see it working would be having the world open to the party or having caves, dungeons etc instanced to party and everything else being open. As far as killing npc's well that might have to be tempered.
And "yes" if you want to do certain quests then you need to be a part of those quests. Why would you be doing werewolf quests not being a werewolf? Though they could take a page from Dawnguard and have a version for Werewolves/version for non Werewovles or for vampires and a version not for vampires etc.
As I said, I have over 1300 hours in Skyim, played Oblvion for over 2 years and still play morrowind. While the Elder Scrolls games are not perfect they do embody what I'm looking for in a video game. Could they be better? yes of course. But one doesn't spend that much time in a game unless one really enjoyes it (or geezergamer's 4000 hours for that matter).
I have yet to break 100 hours in Elder Scrolls Online though I do enjoy it a little bit.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
mark2123 said:
I thought Fallout 4 was so boring and tedious (go to a settlement or location, kill everything, repeat 100 times) that I really hope they don't do anything more with the franchise.
plus the damn load times, too long witcher 3 spoled on me on that regard, free open world, no load time, quick and challenging combat.
fallout 4 is a huge meh, I still hope for a fallout 2 or tactics again, but as long bethesda hold the tittle this is a dead series to me now
josko9 said:
ESO is way better than Skyrim. At least it's made for ES veterans, and not for the casuals like Skyrim.
kid I played arena, eso is a pos to say the least, try to look like Elder scroll and fail at it, try to be a mmo and fail too, if you like it ok, but don't ever dare to say it was made for ES veterans it was not, the lack of skills and stats kinda tells you that
OP laments the cancellation of Interplay's FOonline. I'm personally happy about its end. Interplay is all talk these days and that game would have been awful if it even existed. Herve Caen, CEO, is one man who makes EA look good.
Know what they could do!!! Create the game so that the players actual address, ie town, city, state is where they actually start the game. Put Vaults as a separate " island " for a tutorial alla Fallout 3, your born to parents, whatever happens happens, you age and so forth and eventually work your way out of the vault and into the world you live in in real life, or something of a facimile. Example if you live near NYC you would start in NYC, if you live near Boston or DC you would start in those cities and so forth. Player population would spread as the player advances and eventually venture out of their "city" and into the wilderness that might be Long Island, New Jersey, or Connetucit for NYC, Nantucket Island, Maine or West for Boston and so on. For the international player they would have their countries city. French would start in Paris, German would start in Munich or Berlin, England would start in London, Tokyo for Japan. NA would get NYC, Chicago, LA, Miami or Atlanta, Dallas / FT Worth, Denver so on. If a player base is larger for a specific country then other cities could be added, ie Japan might get another city. If your country is very limited in player base you would still get a "hub" city for your country.
Would this be a HUGH undertaking? Sure but since much of Fallout is ruins many areas could be cut for every city, just landmarks would need special attention.
Now for travel between cities and countries!!! Remember those alien spaceships? What about the Mother ship?...Throughout the land there can be various crashed ships that have transport capability, the player just needs to find the materials and "Craft" them like in Fallout 4 to get the transport devices to work. The Mothership being the HUB between the cities and there can be multiple motherships.
As for gameplay, Take any FPS design for combat and interaction, even use Fallout 3 or 4 design. As for communication there is the PiP Boy as the chat and with 99% of all games these days there is VOIP in game or via Vent, TS or whoever.
lastly the player can either stay as a wanderer, get into a guild for higher content and "raids" or maybe even become a raider, or scavenger, maybe eventually a Brotherhood of Steel...whatever is in the game currently in Fallout 4.
The ideas are endless. The only problem is if Bethesda would ever want to take the undertaking of the financial costs to create a MMORPG that is an ongoing cost instead of their proven product to date...I believe Bethesda would be wise to give the concept to some other company to develope and fund any thought of such
So how would they be different from ESO? How would they need to be "tempered"? In what ways would it be better as an mmo than ESO? I mean if you're just talking Borderlands style coop (same effects as Guild Wars) then that's one thing, but that's not really an open world mmo in the same sense. That's lobby based mmo/corp where you're the only one affecting the game.
You may be okay with ffa pvp in an Elder Scrolls setting because you like ffa pvp, but a vast majority of Elder Scrolls RPG fans would rage and not call that Skyrim online. Do you see how Skyrim MMO means something different for everyone because so much would need to be changed that it wouldn't be Skyrim anymore?
It's not about them being good games. They're fine games. They're not MMOs though. That's the point of contention in this article. Can FO4, Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind actually be an MMO and still be those games? I don't think so. It's not that you need to acknowledge ESO as a better game than Skyrim (that's just my opinion), but I do think it's the best MMO version of those games we could realistically see.
Well, for one ESO is very quest or "event" based.
I realize that one could just head out in the world in Elder Scrolls Online but the places you find that you can explore aren't really that compelling.
I've gone back and forth between ESO and Skyrim/Morrowind and the exploration in those games is far more interesting, one can feel you are out in the wilderness or you can get captivated by a ruin.
I agree, using a Guild Wars style where the world is instanced is not the same as an open world mmo but that's why I include the idea of ruins, caves, etc being instanced to the party. At least if one wants to have a more pure experience.
There could feasibly be open dungeons to everyone as well. But players would then have to accept that certain places are going to be "uber dangerous" or have depths that might require more effort.
Let's say you could drop many people in a larger, more modern "morrowind" what would have to change?
Well, mods, being able to kill npc's (which for some people is a pastime I get it. But that just doesn't work in a multiplayer game with thousands of players.
Granted, not having ffa pvp might feel artificial but I don't see the big deal not having it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Only if Obsidian makes it. Better yet, give it to inExile so it can be done in proper isometric, Fallout fashion. After all, they're the only ones who made a real Fallout sequel anyway.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
ESO is way better than Skyrim. At least it's made for ES veterans, and not for the casuals like Skyrim.
kid I played arena, eso is a pos to say the least, try to look like Elder scroll and fail at it, try to be a mmo and fail too, if you like it ok, but don't ever dare to say it was made for ES veterans it was not, the lack of skills and stats kinda tells you that
I wouldn't brag that I played Arena, it's not even the TES we know today (and that's a bad thing). But hey that was to be expected technology was shit back then. True TES began with Morrowind and even Bethesda admits that. ESO is definitively made for ES Veterans.
Comments
But I agree that Fallout isn't really perfect for a MMO, very few single player games are. It would make an awesome CORPG though. Many good games would make aweful MMOs, take the witcher, an online version would lose the soul of the series and same thing probably would happen with fallout.
But if the alternative is no more western AAA MMOs (and while Pantheon and a few others seems really good they lack the budget of being more than AA games) then it still would be best.
I have the hope that VR MMOs might reboot the genre, people in Japan are already crying for it after animes like SAO, .HACK signs, overlord and not the least Log horizon (you should watch that one) and that might hopefully spread to the west as well. Otherwise is our only hope that a kickstarter game will become huge and get loads of money poored into it when it becomes popular turning it into a real AAA game and get investors to notice the genre again.
Original IP's can be successful (EVE and EQ are two examples). Yet face a much higher chance of losing folks before they truly invest in the ideas ( both in lore as well as game-play) at work within game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On other side ESO came long way since it was released. I think its actually only relevant western MMO made in last 4 years (and probably last)
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I don't believe ESO is Elder Scrolls done "right" in an mmo setting.
I don't care about mods in an mmo so non-issue. It would not have to be ffa pvp but if it was I wouldn't care.
As I mentioned, the only way I could see it working would be having the world open to the party or having caves, dungeons etc instanced to party and everything else being open. As far as killing npc's well that might have to be tempered.
And "yes" if you want to do certain quests then you need to be a part of those quests. Why would you be doing werewolf quests not being a werewolf? Though they could take a page from Dawnguard and have a version for Werewolves/version for non Werewovles or for vampires and a version not for vampires etc.
As I said, I have over 1300 hours in Skyim, played Oblvion for over 2 years and still play morrowind. While the Elder Scrolls games are not perfect they do embody what I'm looking for in a video game. Could they be better? yes of course. But one doesn't spend that much time in a game unless one really enjoyes it (or geezergamer's 4000 hours for that matter).
I have yet to break 100 hours in Elder Scrolls Online though I do enjoy it a little bit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I thought Fallout 4 was so boring and tedious (go to a settlement or location, kill everything, repeat 100 times) that I really hope they don't do anything more with the franchise.
plus the damn load times, too long witcher 3 spoled on me on that regard, free open world, no load time, quick and challenging combat.
fallout 4 is a huge meh, I still hope for a fallout 2 or tactics again, but as long bethesda hold the tittle this is a dead series to me now
ESO is way better than Skyrim. At least it's made for ES veterans, and not for the casuals like Skyrim.
kid I played arena, eso is a pos to say the least, try to look like Elder scroll and fail at it, try to be a mmo and fail too, if you like it ok, but don't ever dare to say it was made for ES veterans it was not, the lack of skills and stats kinda tells you that
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Some games can simply not be converted to a MMO.
Just look at the abomination called ESO.
Great as a singleplayer series, but a MMO debacle.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Would this be a HUGH undertaking? Sure but since much of Fallout is ruins many areas could be cut for every city, just landmarks would need special attention.
Now for travel between cities and countries!!! Remember those alien spaceships? What about the Mother ship?...Throughout the land there can be various crashed ships that have transport capability, the player just needs to find the materials and "Craft" them like in Fallout 4 to get the transport devices to work. The Mothership being the HUB between the cities and there can be multiple motherships.
As for gameplay, Take any FPS design for combat and interaction, even use Fallout 3 or 4 design. As for communication there is the PiP Boy as the chat and with 99% of all games these days there is VOIP in game or via Vent, TS or whoever.
lastly the player can either stay as a wanderer, get into a guild for higher content and "raids" or maybe even become a raider, or scavenger, maybe eventually a Brotherhood of Steel...whatever is in the game currently in Fallout 4.
The ideas are endless. The only problem is if Bethesda would ever want to take the undertaking of the financial costs to create a MMORPG that is an ongoing cost instead of their proven product to date...I believe Bethesda would be wise to give the concept to some other company to develope and fund any thought of such
I realize that one could just head out in the world in Elder Scrolls Online but the places you find that you can explore aren't really that compelling.
I've gone back and forth between ESO and Skyrim/Morrowind and the exploration in those games is far more interesting, one can feel you are out in the wilderness or you can get captivated by a ruin.
I agree, using a Guild Wars style where the world is instanced is not the same as an open world mmo but that's why I include the idea of ruins, caves, etc being instanced to the party. At least if one wants to have a more pure experience.
There could feasibly be open dungeons to everyone as well. But players would then have to accept that certain places are going to be "uber dangerous" or have depths that might require more effort.
Let's say you could drop many people in a larger, more modern "morrowind" what would have to change?
Well, mods, being able to kill npc's (which for some people is a pastime I get it. But that just doesn't work in a multiplayer game with thousands of players.
Granted, not having ffa pvp might feel artificial but I don't see the big deal not having it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
josko9 said:
ESO is way better than Skyrim. At least it's made for ES veterans, and not for the casuals like Skyrim.
kid I played arena, eso is a pos to say the least, try to look like Elder scroll and fail at it, try to be a mmo and fail too, if you like it ok, but don't ever dare to say it was made for ES veterans it was not, the lack of skills and stats kinda tells you that
I wouldn't brag that I played Arena, it's not even the TES we know today (and that's a bad thing). But hey that was to be expected technology was shit back then. True TES began with Morrowind and even Bethesda admits that. ESO is definitively made for ES Veterans.
MMO? No.
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That said, I have complete faith that Bethesda would fuck it up and don't wish to see FO:O anytime soon.
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