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Non casual MMO.

KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
edited January 2016 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Is there such thing now? Closest non casual MMO's I've been fortunate to experience in the past were World of Warcraft BC, Lich King, Cataclysm and Pandaria expansions (very hard progressive raiding) and Star Wars Galaxies the path to unlocking force sensitive and then training jedi as well as going through the trials, while most bounty hunters and basically the galaxy is chasing for you to give you exp penalty.

Raids back then in WOW the top progression guilds raided for 5+ days in the week for 4-5 hours as I recall. The reward for clearing the most difficult content through a short time frame was not just being the top guild on server, but also being able to ride some very rare and difficult to obtain mounts.

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Post edited by Kopogero on
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Comments

  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Ha! No. That's much too hard for today's gamers.



  • NetSageNetSage Member UncommonPosts: 1,059
    Closest you'll get are WoW, FFXIV, and maybe Wildstar(not sure about this one since F2P).
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    NetSage said:
    Closest you'll get are WoW, FFXIV, and maybe Wildstar(not sure about this one since F2P).
    Haven't played FFXIV, but WoW and Wildstar are both very casual. If you show up you progress. There's no challenge to these games, which (for me) means no sense of accomplishment.

    NOTE: I actually really like Wildstar. It's just a decent time waster though, about as rewarding as Candy Crush.

  • SanisarSanisar Member UncommonPosts: 135
    If you are just talking about raiding then I have no idea, though I never considered wow hardcore past vanilla Naxx.  Sure there was progression raiding (and still is) but hardcore isn't the word I would ever use past vanilla.

    If you aren't talking about raiding, then EVE is going to be the most common answer.  There are plenty more games out there though that are certainly hardcore in some way or another.  Darkfall (if it still exists) is hardcore PvP, almost any Korean game is hardcore grinding, games like GW and LOTRO I would consider hardcore for achievement (the sheer volume of them, and many unlock things ingame), etc.  

    I think your question is a bit vague and even more confusing since you list what I view as progressively more and more casual wow expansions as hardcore.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    There are a lots of sandbox MMOs where if you try to play casually, meaning less than 15 hours a week, you'll just never get anywhere.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    khanstruct said:
    Ha! No. That's much too hard for today's gamers.
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Quirhid said:
    khanstruct said:
    Ha! No. That's much too hard for today's gamers.
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
    and most, i suspect, including me, do not have that much time for a single game. If i play games, i would much rather experiences multiple games. 
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Quirhid said:
    khanstruct said:
    Ha! No. That's much too hard for today's gamers.
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
    It's a vague and subjective term. Typically "hardcore" gamers get deeply involved in a game... requiring that it have depth.

    I wasn't saying those games were difficult, I was saying that it's just too much work for modern gamers. They want things like an LFG button so they don't have to go out and do it themselves.

    Maybe that's the real discrepancy. People used to think that a task requiring practice and skill was difficult. Now, they seem to think that having to do anything makes it difficult.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    khanstruct said:
    Quirhid said:
    khanstruct said:
    Ha! No. That's much too hard for today's gamers.
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
    It's a vague and subjective term. Typically "hardcore" gamers get deeply involved in a game... requiring that it have depth.

    I wasn't saying those games were difficult, I was saying that it's just too much work for modern gamers. They want things like an LFG button so they don't have to go out and do it themselves.

    Maybe that's the real discrepancy. People used to think that a task requiring practice and skill was difficult. Now, they seem to think that having to do anything makes it difficult.
    No. They still think tasks requiring practice and skill are difficult. What you don't understand is that stuff like the LFG button are there fore convenience. These features are designed to minimize all the mundane, boring activitites players would otherwise have to endure in a game.

    Are you jealous that you had to look for a group manually "back in the day"? Does that make you better than them? Don't you think its a huge nuisance and a waste of time?

    People are lazy and that is what drives us to innovate. Centuries ago we used to rub sticks together to make fire. Carry embers around so we didn't need to do all that work every time we needed to get a fire going. Today, we have lighters and matches. Thats the LFG button: We don't have to spend hours and hours getting a group together and pretending to like people we don't like just that we keep getting into groups in the future.

    I'm sorry if you miss that contact, but you have to get it somewhere else now. "LFG buttons" are here to stay.



    Also, e-sports PvP scene is as hardcore as it gets and e-sports PvP is more popular than ever. People train several hours a day every day to get to the top - to maybe be a pro some day.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    edited January 2016
    Quirhid said:
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
    Everything in life that takes skill, takes time to master. These aren't two separate concepts, they completely overlap.

    There's nothing that takes skill but doesn't take time to learn.

    People often call something like a corpse run a timesink, even though it's directly linked to skill. Once you have enough skill and understand why you die, you can prevent it from happening. These two concepts overlap almost entirely.
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Quirhid said:
    No. They still think tasks requiring practice and skill are difficult. What you don't understand is that stuff like the LFG button are there fore convenience. These features are designed to minimize all the mundane, boring activitites players would otherwise have to endure in a game.

    Are you jealous that you had to look for a group manually "back in the day"? Does that make you better than them? Don't you think its a huge nuisance and a waste of time?

    People are lazy and that is what drives us to innovate. Centuries ago we used to rub sticks together to make fire. Carry embers around so we didn't need to do all that work every time we needed to get a fire going. Today, we have lighters and matches. Thats the LFG button: We don't have to spend hours and hours getting a group together and pretending to like people we don't like just that we keep getting into groups in the future.

    I'm sorry if you miss that contact, but you have to get it somewhere else now. "LFG buttons" are here to stay.

    Also, e-sports PvP scene is as hardcore as it gets and e-sports PvP is more popular than ever. People train several hours a day every day to get to the top - to maybe be a pro some day.
    Jealous? No. I enjoyed the social aspect of MMOs.

    I recently played an MMO that started out with auto-pathing turned on. My character immediately ran to the first quest. I clicked "OK". They immediately ran to a bunch of goblin things and killed five of them, then ran to turn in the quest. I clicked "OK" again. They then ran to talk to some guy in town. When he got there... I clicked "OK". This went one for a few more quests before I uninstalled the game.

    This was very... convenient. Personally, I would rather inconveniently play the game.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    edited January 2016
    Quirhid said:
     stuff like the LFG button are there fore convenience. These features are designed to minimize all the mundane, boring activitites players would otherwise have to endure in a game.

    Are you jealous that you had to look for a group manually "back in the day"?
    I don't think a single person is jealous of automated groups where no one speaks to one another. You might as well play a single player game.

    Quirhid said:
     Thats the LFG button: We don't have to spend hours and hours getting a group together and pretending to like people we don't like just that we keep getting into groups in the future.

    You ever think that if you spent hours upon hours pretending to like people to get a group, it was your lack of social skills that were the problem, instead of blaming the game.

    Socializing takes skill too. It's not something you're born with knowing how to do, the more you practice it, the better you get at it.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    The only way I could see you not having a game is if you're writing off games for having something medium-ish that isn't exactly right.   As it stands right now since you're not playing anything, have no intention of play anything, and aren't a customer to anything.   You've given up the biggest way to change the genre, by voting with your wallet and showing where money is.

    ________________

    If you want an example look at what devs are going to be doing a year or two from now with the utterly rampant success of "The Witcher" and "Fallout 4".  Especially after all the attempts to go "Multiplayer Only", "No Campaigns", and "We only need episodic content".

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    anemo said:
    The only way I could see you not having a game is if you're writing off games for having something medium-ish that isn't exactly right.   As it stands right now since you're not playing anything, have no intention of play anything, and aren't a customer to anything.   You've given up the biggest way to change the genre, by voting with your wallet and showing where money is.

    ________________

    If you want an example look at what devs are going to be doing a year or two from now with the utterly rampant success of "The Witcher" and "Fallout 4".  Especially after all the attempts to go "Multiplayer Only", "No Campaigns", and "We only need episodic content".
     O.o  I have no idea what you're saying

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Waterlily said:

    I don't think a single person is jealous of automated groups where no one speaks to one another. You might as well play a single player game.


    hm .. i play a game to play, not to speak. And yes, just treat MMOs as a single player game. Problem solved.


  • PalaPala Member UncommonPosts: 360
    Yes, these modern MMOs are a complete waste of time. 

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Waterlily said:
    Quirhid said:
     stuff like the LFG button are there fore convenience. These features are designed to minimize all the mundane, boring activitites players would otherwise have to endure in a game.

    Are you jealous that you had to look for a group manually "back in the day"?
    I don't think a single person is jealous of automated groups where no one speaks to one another. You might as well play a single player game.

    Quirhid said:
     Thats the LFG button: We don't have to spend hours and hours getting a group together and pretending to like people we don't like just that we keep getting into groups in the future.

    You ever think that if you spent hours upon hours pretending to like people to get a group, it was your lack of social skills that were the problem, instead of blaming the game.

    Socializing takes skill too. It's not something you're born with knowing how to do, the more you practice it, the better you get at it.
    When wrote "we don't have to spend hours and hours...", I meant everyone.

    Your flamebait is weak.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Waterlily said:
    Quirhid said:
    Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
    Everything in life that takes skill, takes time to master. These aren't two separate concepts, they completely overlap.

    There's nothing that takes skill but doesn't take time to learn.

    People often call something like a corpse run a timesink, even though it's directly linked to skill. Once you have enough skill and understand why you die, you can prevent it from happening. These two concepts overlap almost entirely.
    Some people take longer than others. Some people never get to the top.

    You know what makes good players: repetition. But not just any repetition: You have to challenge yourself everytime.

    You know what doesn't make you a good player? Doing something completely unrelated as punishment like farming in PvE to recuperate your losses in PvP. Neither do corpse runs make you a better tank.

    Say no to timesinks. Just reset the encounter and let them try again. Let no one proceed if they are not good enough. Old school gaming.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    edited January 2016
    Xodic said:

    Quirhid said:

     stuff like the LFG button are there fore convenience. These features are designed to minimize all the mundane, boring activitites players would otherwise have to endure in a game.

    Are you jealous that you had to look for a group manually "back in the day"? 

    I can get behind convenience, but you have to agree that there is a threshold. How much convenience is too much convenience? When do the simple things stop having any meaning?

    An example from my experience; when I grouped with people in EQ it was just as much a social interaction as it was a grind. I got to know many people, and I genuinely liked most of them. I would log in and immediately check my friends list to see if everyone was online. Now, I hardly have enough time to say hello before players are already running the dungeon. No words are exchanged until the end, "Thanks for group." (disbanded).

    I think I am just getting old. The things I value don't  translate well anymore. As an extreme analogy;  it's like putting a new-born in a coffin, and to make it even more convenient the obstetrician is also a licensed mortician.
    I play almost exclusively single player and regular multiplayer games. I rarely play MMORPGs these days. I prefer competitive PvP. I am constantly in at least 3-4 voice chats with up to dozen people in them asking me to go play with them daily. Counting out real life friends, I've gathered these friends by playing mainly instanced games with LFG-button-like features.

    So I don't get why some people would have trouble making connections these days. It is not the games, believe me.

    If there even is such a thing as "too much convenience" we are not there yet.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    FFXIV has plenty of difficult content but the rewards dont match the effort wasted. After the devs posted the current clear numbers of the A4S (raid), the opinion I gave is more objective vs subjective.
  • NovusodNovusod Member UncommonPosts: 912
    Kopogero said:
    Is there such thing now? Closest non casual MMO's I've been fortunate to experience in the past were World of Warcraft BC, Lich King, Cataclysm and Pandaria expansions (very hard progressive raiding) and Star Wars Galaxies the path to unlocking force sensitive and then training jedi as well as going through the trials, while most bounty hunters and basically the galaxy is chasing for you to give you exp penalty.
    If you want a hard core MMO experience consider playing Granado Espada which was recently re-realeased on Steam. It is hard core in the same way Pre-NGE SWG was hardcore. You have quest, raid, and grind to unlock the better classes. It is the kind of game where you have to play for months before you are even allowed to make hard core classes. That is how it was with Pre-NGE Jedi.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    sunandshadow said:
    There are a lots of sandbox MMOs where if you try to play casually, meaning less than 15 hours a week, you'll just never get anywhere.
    Oh you'll get somewhere. Behind. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    Amathe said:
    sunandshadow said:
    There are a lots of sandbox MMOs where if you try to play casually, meaning less than 15 hours a week, you'll just never get anywhere.
    Oh you'll get somewhere. Behind. 
    Trying to figure out what titles fall into the category of "a lot of sandbox MMOs"


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Xodic said:



    I can get behind convenience, but you have to agree that there is a threshold. How much convenience is too much convenience? When do the simple things stop having any meaning?

    whenever the player decides it is too much.

    Hence, options are good. No one forces you to use LFD .. but it is there, and if you decides it is not too much, use it.


  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    sunandshadow said:
    There are a lots of sandbox MMOs where if you try to play casually, meaning less than 15 hours a week, you'll just never get anywhere.
    Oh you'll get somewhere. Behind. 
    Trying to figure out what titles fall into the category of "a lot of sandbox MMOs"


    The important factor is probably whether you start playing near the opening of a game server.  But A Tale in the Desert and Wurm Online would be 2 clear examples.  Maybe Xyson, since it is the same type of sandbox, though I'm not sure whether it has continued to add content until it requires months of play time to do everything the way Tale and Wurm do.  ArchAge is so P2W it overwhelms time as the main ingredient needed for making progress at the game, but for anyone trying to play it without paying it would probably be important.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
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