P2w and star citizen

Iselin · February 2016

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

Kefo · February 2016

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

I've been making that argument for probably a year now and he still keeps throwing that out there so you would look less crazy if you talked to a wall at this point.

GeezerGamer · February 2016

Kefo said:

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

I've been making that argument for probably a year now and he still keeps throwing that out there so you would look less crazy if you talked to a wall at this point.

Considering the game hasn't lauched yet, they can say whatever they want. But you'd better believe the EULA will have the standard "Player experience is subject to change at any time" clause in it.

SpottyGekko · February 2016

Kefo said:

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

I've been making that argument for probably a year now and he still keeps throwing that out there so you would look less crazy if you talked to a wall at this point.

Yeah, I'm very curious to see how CIG will continue to fund the game after release.

There's certainly some F2P games that have thrived on selling only cosmetics, but no MMORPG has ever been able to survive on that. And SC will in all likelihood try to keep developing new flashy content, which tends to be expensive.

Kyleran · February 2016

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship. Don't deny it. It is what it is.

That being said None of us know the degree/impact of this system. This is what matters. This is the only thing that's important. On the scale of p2w it could be anywhere from mild to destructive. We wont know until there is a game...

In your scenario I'm trying to see how player two "won"

What did he win in buying a ship? People can do this in EVE yet they dont win over me.

He did get the ship sooner, an advantage , sure, but not the definition of winning in my book.

YashaX · February 2016

Erillion said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Erillion said:

That is why it was official corrected/clarified on their homepage. Starter ships only.
You will find the link posted here in this subforum in older threads. Or in the Dev Tracker.

Have fun

The onus is on you to provide those links if you believe they offer a different standpoint on the matter. I'm providing information to back up what I know, you have to do the same.

As you wish.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6176447/#Comment_6176447

"CIG to be selling packages greater than simple starter ships post-release?"

"BadNewsBaron is incorrect, I have not made any such post and CIG has made no such announcement. "

CIG Ben Lesnick wcloaf

As I said: Starter ships only. Status December 2015.

Have fun

I don't understand why they would not sell ships after launch anyway, if its not p2w now why would they stop selling the same stuff after launch? Does selling ships become p2w after launch?

Sanisar · February 2016

Kyleran said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship. Don't deny it. It is what it is.

That being said None of us know the degree/impact of this system. This is what matters. This is the only thing that's important. On the scale of p2w it could be anywhere from mild to destructive. We wont know until there is a game...

In your scenario I'm trying to see how player two "won"

What did he win in buying a ship? People can do this in EVE yet they dont win over me.

He did get the ship sooner, an advantage , sure, but not the definition of winning in my book.

The same semantic 'that's not how I define winning' argument. The phrase 'pay to win' doesn't literally mean that you pay money and download the iwin button to press and go to the final credits.

Pay to win means paying to gain an advantage. You clearly state that in that example the player is paying for an advantage, this is a textbook p2w example.

I don't know when the internet decided that we could collectively just ignore any argument we don't like with the old Bill Clinton 'it depends on how you define' argument. Sad times.

bruevitz · February 2016

SpottyGekko said:

Kefo said:

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

I've been making that argument for probably a year now and he still keeps throwing that out there so you would look less crazy if you talked to a wall at this point.

Yeah, I'm very curious to see how CIG will continue to fund the game after release.

There's certainly some F2P games that have thrived on selling only cosmetics, but no MMORPG has ever been able to survive on that. And SC will in all likelihood try to keep developing new flashy content, which tends to be expensive.

Going by the trend that they seem to be persuing right now, I think it is very obvious what they will do.

They 'claimed' to have received $100 millions from selling...a demo (still better than nothing though), so you have to give them credit for their success.

They can keep earning money if they can keep the excitement and they hype. If they solely depending on the fanboys it will be difficult (with or without subscription). But, I think you are looking way too far ahead. They need to, first, release the game.

Adjuvant1 · February 2016

Sanisar said:

Pay to win means paying to gain an advantage.

Here's why this can't be true. Under this definition, you cannot name a single game which is not pay to win.

Sanisar said:

The phrase 'pay to win' doesn't literally mean that you pay money and download the iwin button to press and go to the final credits.

Why yes, yes it does. It's just overused and driven into the ground in many circles to become meaningless.

There are many, legitimately, pay to win games. Star Citizen isn't one of them because Star Citizen isn't a game.

makasouleater69 · February 2016

I saw that some one said eve wasn't pay 2 win. I guess, no one told you, you can buy plex, get isk, and then buy accounts........... Eve is so pay 2 win, that you can't possibly obtain the stuff in game, unless you've been playing since the start, or dump a lot of money into it. Not to mention, that the more accounts you have the more money you get, so eve is 100 percent pay 2 win. The people there are just crazy, and won't admit it. They are like the people in Uncharted Waters online, where if you bring it up, they get all butt hurt, and start swearing its not.

SC, obviously is going to be the same way lol. All modern mmos are pay 2 win. They remind me of alcoholic who don't think drinking every day 20 beers, from morning to night makes them a alcoholic. The mmo people have just got better at making people delude them selves, like drug dealers.

Horusra · February 2016

Talonsin said:

DirtyDozen said:

Like EVE? Where you can buy PLEX and sell it for ISK, and with that ISK buy ships?

Its a little different in Eve since just flying a ship does not mean you can actually use it very well. In Eve, you have to train for the ships so you can not just buy a carrier and win, you have to train for it first. Then you have to train for many months to work the shields, weapons and fighters. A new person can not just come in with a month of gametime and BUY a winner.

We dont know all the facts yet in Star Citizen but I am also worried that people who dropped thousands of dollars will dominate from day one.

I always love the Eve defense of buying capital ships...when the actual P2W is buying little ships to have an endless PvP frigate and cruiser bank instead of having to farm up currency to keep your supply of disposable ships. Thus you are paying real money to have an advantage over those that have to actually work to rebuild and reequip those ships.

Talonsin · February 2016

YashaX said:

I don't understand why they would not sell ships after launch anyway, if its not p2w now why would they stop selling the same stuff after launch? Does selling ships become p2w after launch?

First off, they can always change their minds. Second, people are more inclined to buy if they say "limited edition" or "limited supply". CIG telling people they will not be selling ships after launch is the same thing as telling them there is a limited supply, some people will buy them before launch that would not normally have. Its a pretty standard marketing tactic.

YashaX · February 2016

Herase said:

bcbully said:

Just like SC You CAN buy power.

You can't buy power, as some have said a ship defines your role, so the ships are more like classes, example there will be a news ship and massive ships that have little to no firepower, how will that grant me an advantage?

If they start selling weapons and stuff that improves your ships, then it will be P2W. At this point? Nothing like that is buyable with real money.

Imho it's similar to skyforge where you can buy your class, which doesn't grant you power just changes your style of play.

Just have to look at the description of the ships:

Genesis, 8 person passenger ship i.e a plane. Not sure how that will make me WIN

Actually, the video that the SC spokeperson @Erillion kindly posted to explain why SC is not p2w says that "those with large bank accounts will begin the game with a clear advantage", but that this is not p2w since you can also get these items in game.

Therefore, it will still not be p2w even if "they start selling weapons and stuff that improves ships", since you will be able to earn these in game as well.

Kyleran · February 2016

Sanisar said:

Kyleran said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship. Don't deny it. It is what it is.

That being said None of us know the degree/impact of this system. This is what matters. This is the only thing that's important. On the scale of p2w it could be anywhere from mild to destructive. We wont know until there is a game...

In your scenario I'm trying to see how player two "won"

What did he win in buying a ship? People can do this in EVE yet they dont win over me.

He did get the ship sooner, an advantage , sure, but not the definition of winning in my book.

The same semantic 'that's not how I define winning' argument. The phrase 'pay to win' doesn't literally mean that you pay money and download the iwin button to press and go to the final credits.

Pay to win means paying to gain an advantage. You clearly state that in that example the player is paying for an advantage, this is a textbook p2w example.

I don't know when the internet decided that we could collectively just ignore any argument we don't like with the old Bill Clinton 'it depends on how you define' argument. Sad times.

I'm not sure when people on the internet stopped differentiating between the words "advantage" and "win".

Probably around the same time they lost the real meaning of the term MMO.

Kyleran · February 2016

Horusra said:

Talonsin said:

DirtyDozen said:

Like EVE? Where you can buy PLEX and sell it for ISK, and with that ISK buy ships?

Its a little different in Eve since just flying a ship does not mean you can actually use it very well. In Eve, you have to train for the ships so you can not just buy a carrier and win, you have to train for it first. Then you have to train for many months to work the shields, weapons and fighters. A new person can not just come in with a month of gametime and BUY a winner.

We dont know all the facts yet in Star Citizen but I am also worried that people who dropped thousands of dollars will dominate from day one.

I always love the Eve defense of buying capital ships...when the actual P2W is buying little ships to have an endless PvP frigate and cruiser bank instead of having to farm up currency to keep your supply of disposable ships. Thus you are paying real money to have an advantage over those that have to actually work to rebuild and reequip those ships.

I always wonder if you really ever played EVE.

Endlessly losing ships is not the way most folks play, heck some players have like a 25k to 1k kill ratuo.

Quesa · February 2016

Kyleran said:

Sanisar said:
The same semantic 'that's not how I define winning' argument. The phrase 'pay to win' doesn't literally mean that you pay money and download the iwin button to press and go to the final credits.

Pay to win means paying to gain an advantage. You clearly state that in that example the player is paying for an advantage, this is a textbook p2w example.

I don't know when the internet decided that we could collectively just ignore any argument we don't like with the old Bill Clinton 'it depends on how you define' argument. Sad times.

I'm not sure when people on the internet stopped differentiating between the words "advantage" and "win".

Probably around the same time they lost the real meaning of the term MMO.

Peeps have different definitions. Some people think if you have a game where you can get any in-game item for RL currency. I think for games like Eve Online, and hopefully SC, the actual player skill (in terms of piloting skill as well as game knowledge) will significantly reduce or dampen any advantage one would see from skipping a few days of grinding out cash for the same in-game item.

To me, P2W has always been a level of RMT that virtually ensures victory and supplants any skill with a wallet. PLEX is openly traded on the open market, it's virtually a direct RMT. But again, we always see a smattering of high cost ship losses killed by a group of cheap ships or a solo ganker in highsec because the person who spends hundreds of dollars on those things typically cannot overcome the skill requirement necessary to play effectively.

It's also the same thing as people claiming that a game doesn't have RMT when it clearly has a way to sell cash-shop items for in-game currency. For many, the single distinction lies only in where the money goes rather than the end result.

someforumguy · February 2016

Is this scenario plausible?

Player A starts playing SC without buying a ship.
Player B starts playing SC and buys the biggest baddest ship available.

Player B kills player A repeatedly because of the more powerful ship, eventhough player A is not really a bad player?

If this is something you can expect to happen when the game launches, then I would say it is P2W. Whether player A can work towards a similar ship in time doesn't change much. Especially if it is a slow grind made even slower because of people like player B.

Quesa · February 2016

someforumguy said:

Is this scenario plausible?

Player A starts playing SC without buying a ship.
Player B starts playing SC and buys the biggest baddest ship available.

Player B kills player A repeatedly because of the more powerful ship, eventhough player A is not really a bad player?

If this is something you can expect to happen when the game launches, then I would say it is P2W. Whether player A can work towards a similar ship in time doesn't change much. Especially if it is a slow grind made even slower because of people like player B.

I don't have a link but the largest ships were explained to be of limited supply (for pledge purchase) and while they will be in the universe, the source will be exploration/salvage and hostile takeover.

Colt47 · February 2016

SpottyGekko said:

Kefo said:

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship.

They do not sell anything but starter ships in game after launch.

Do you really believe that given the track record of a fan base which has shown itself to have very little impulse control and wants to throw crazy money at them, there will come a day when CIG says "Ok guys, please stop throwing money at us. Enough is enough"?

They will simply say "due to popular demand..." and change THAT scope.

I've been making that argument for probably a year now and he still keeps throwing that out there so you would look less crazy if you talked to a wall at this point.

Yeah, I'm very curious to see how CIG will continue to fund the game after release.

There's certainly some F2P games that have thrived on selling only cosmetics, but no MMORPG has ever been able to survive on that. And SC will in all likelihood try to keep developing new flashy content, which tends to be expensive.

The plan right now is that the only thing people will be able to buy online will be UEC, and there will be a monthly cap on how much UEC someone can purchase. There hasn't been anything recently stated on what the plan was for actual ships, though. Right now the consensus is that there will be no digital ship sales after the release and people will have to earn what they fly.

People can buy ships right now via the pledge system as well, but a healthy dose of Caveat Emptor must be taken into consideration as you'll basically be flying a work in progress. Just ask anyone who was involved with the cutlass or the retaliator.

time007 · February 2016

theres p2w! and there's p2w! everything is p2w! buzzword for starting crap p2W! everygame is p2w!

its a trend for every game that has a cash shop or where you can buy stuff to be deemed p2w by someone somewhere in the world. it doesn't make it p2w just because a fraction of the population believes that.

Kyleran · February 2016

Quesa said:

Kyleran said:

Sanisar said:
The same semantic 'that's not how I define winning' argument. The phrase 'pay to win' doesn't literally mean that you pay money and download the iwin button to press and go to the final credits.

Pay to win means paying to gain an advantage. You clearly state that in that example the player is paying for an advantage, this is a textbook p2w example.

I don't know when the internet decided that we could collectively just ignore any argument we don't like with the old Bill Clinton 'it depends on how you define' argument. Sad times.

I'm not sure when people on the internet stopped differentiating between the words "advantage" and "win".

Probably around the same time they lost the real meaning of the term MMO.

Peeps have different definitions. Some people think if you have a game where you can get any in-game item for RL currency. I think for games like Eve Online, and hopefully SC, the actual player skill (in terms of piloting skill as well as game knowledge) will significantly reduce or dampen any advantage one would see from skipping a few days of grinding out cash for the same in-game item.

To me, P2W has always been a level of RMT that virtually ensures victory and supplants any skill with a wallet. PLEX is openly traded on the open market, it's virtually a direct RMT. But again, we always see a smattering of high cost ship losses killed by a group of cheap ships or a solo ganker in highsec because the person who spends hundreds of dollars on those things typically cannot overcome the skill requirement necessary to play effectively.

It's also the same thing as people claiming that a game doesn't have RMT when it clearly has a way to sell cash-shop items for in-game currency. For many, the single distinction lies only in where the money goes rather than the end result.

People may attempt to interpret words differently, but by their very nature definitions are "definitive"

They establish a common meaning so we may properly communicate, and while words can have multiple meanings, I've yet to see advantage defined as winning.

Yes, I am a bit of a literalist when it comes to words and their meanings, as anyone who has observed my debates with Narius will tell you.

You may say, what's the difference how the two terms are used? Simple, P2W is a very real design that is pretty easy to define, very seldom done in an open fashion, rather devs tend to mask it in the form of RNG lockboxes and other slights of hand..

Leon1e · February 2016

Siphaed said:

DirtyDozen said:

Like EVE? Where you can buy PLEX and sell it for ISK, and with that ISK buy ships?

Except you cannot fly those ships until you've learned the skills in REAL TIME. It takes at least 6 months + to be able to fly a Capital ship through training. And then you've got to worry about subsystems attached to it. However that is NOT pay to win. They're buying in-game earned currency from other players within the game. That is RMT (real money trade) for currency. P2W is buying directly from a cash shop items of power that are on sell there, whether earnable in-game is moot to that fact. And yes, I'd say that SC is completely P2W with it's ship sales system.

Not anymore. Or not in the near future because you can purchase skill points

Or, you can purchase a developed character. Which is completely fine by CCP, they even made the system that lets you buy/sell characters

Back to SC. Yeah I guess it is a p2w. It can not be any other way. If i dump 2000$ on a pixel ship, it better be a damn good one or i'd be slightly upset.

Leon1e · February 2016

Kyleran said:

bcbully said:

Of course it's p2w. Person A enters game and gets to work - Person B enters game and buys a ship. Don't deny it. It is what it is.

That being said None of us know the degree/impact of this system. This is what matters. This is the only thing that's important. On the scale of p2w it could be anywhere from mild to destructive. We wont know until there is a game...

In your scenario I'm trying to see how player two "won"

What did he win in buying a ship? People can do this in EVE yet they dont win over me.

He did get the ship sooner, an advantage , sure, but not the definition of winning in my book.

With enough money/resources you can get beat. I mean, fly your frigate or whathaveyou but a capital ship will obliterate you with just drones, all the while you cannot scratch a dent in his shield.

All in all, with enough money and resources, you get blown up.
With enough $$ you can permanently have a bounty on your head. I know people exploit that shit and whatnot but I doubt it is a nice feeling unless you fly a stealth bomber all the time.

Erillion · February 2016

Leon1e said:

unless you fly a stealth bomber all the time.

Which is fun ;-) (ex-ASCN Stealth Bomber Wing pilot)

Have fun

adamlotus75 · February 2016

lots of doublethink going on re: p2w.

On one hand, some are acting like there is no actual advantage to be gained across ships.

on the other hand, some are comparing stats between ships and theorycrafting which can beat which. Hilariously they are sometimes doing it on price 'a $100 ship should not be able to beat a $350 ship'.

So so some people are expecting that their ships will confer an advantage. This is what they paid for. Forget theoretical definitions this is actually happening.

newbies in starter ships are going to get relentlessly farmed when the game comes out.

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P2w and star citizen

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"CIG to be selling packages greater than simple starter ships post-release?"

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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P2w and star citizen

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"CIG to be selling packages greater than simple starter ships post-release?"

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV