No hard or soft caps, you'll be able to progress your skills/levels indefinitely!

Gyva02 · February 2016

I really do like this idea as it will reward the veterans of the game. You will never run out of something to gain, you'll always have something to keep progressing. And I think its only fair that those who have put their time in a game be rewarded. A lot of people are going to disagree but I think a person whos been in the game world for 5 years SHOULD be stronger than the guy that's been there for only 1 year. Now this is considering everything else being equal.

In the video he does say progression will be very very slow and will continue to get slower and slower as you get higher and higher in your stats. This is ok as long as they dial it in to a reasonable amount of gain. Maybe to make it feel like you are still progressing it might be nice to have a .000 3rd decimal break down or view of your stat so you could still see your numbers moving up as you progressed.

He talks about it at the 30:00 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKgySmQg0gM

RexKushman · February 2016

I agree that long term players should be able to continue their progression and advance their characters. An infinitely expanding power gap, which is what this sounds like, seems to be a very short sighted idea. I can't imagine that in the long term many new players will stick around when their is no way for them to ever get on equal footing with longer term players. What would be the point of playing if by design you'll never catch up?

FlyByKnight · February 2016

So it's basically a hard cap (because any stat increases beyond it don't really matter)?

Gyva02 · February 2016

RexKushman said:

I agree that long term players should be able to continue their progression and advance their characters. An infinitely expanding power gap, which is what this sounds like, seems to be a very short sighted idea. I can't imagine that in the long term many new players will stick around when their is no way for them to ever get on equal footing with longer term players. What would be the point of playing if by design you'll never catch up?

I think it'll work in this game because its a RvR game and most battles will not be 1V1 it'll be large groups of people fighting on the battle grounds. But even if it was a mostly 1v1 game I'd still be very happy with this system. I'm just a believer that if you put in the time you should be rewarded... If the game is awesome the players won't bail, they'll want to stick around and progress their characters, even if they are not the strongest yet...

Gyva02 · February 2016

FlyByKnight said:

So it's basically a hard cap (because any stat increases beyond it don't really matter)?

Completely the opposite, no caps at all, the longer you play the stronger you become...

Distopia · February 2016

Gyva02 said:

FlyByKnight said:

So it's basically a hard cap (because any stat increases beyond it don't really matter)?

Completely the opposite, no caps at all, the longer you play the stronger you become...

That doesn't sound very good for the long term, as once the game becomes top heavy(most playing are in the higher tiers) new players will be at a severe disadvantage, never to catch up..

Senyun · February 2016

I actually like these systems as it gives you something to work for that is not gear as gear can be to powerful when it comes down to it. It all depends on how much of an impact everything gained has in combat. Should it give you a slight edge over another opponent. Sure. Should it make you a near invincible god. No.

The effect if done right should be similar to the way a 5-10% speed boost makes you faster, but not so fast that no one can catch you. Which can help you win, but not save you from a stronger skilled player.

Gyva02 · February 2016

Distopia said:

Gyva02 said:

FlyByKnight said:

So it's basically a hard cap (because any stat increases beyond it don't really matter)?

Completely the opposite, no caps at all, the longer you play the stronger you become...

That doesn't sound very good for the long term, as once the game becomes top heavy(most playing are in the higher tiers) new players will be at a severe disadvantage, never to catch up..

I guess all I could say to those who think that is, "suck it up buttercup" lol...

but seriously he says it'll be a very slow progression and I look at it this way. Everyone's gotta start somewhere and that's true no matter what game you choose, just because they are a high level doesn't mean you shouldn't start your journey and put in the time that they have. And also since this is an RvR game you'll have super strong folks on your side too just as they will have newbies on their side...

Ledrir · February 2016

I think the power gain will be very gradual like the Realm Rank system in DAoC. Of course a realm rank 11 versus a realm rank 3 is going to have close to a 100% chance of winning but the realm rank 3 will be able to do good damage during the fight.

Also the higher you got in realm rank the realm points needed for the next realm rank level became larger and larger so the gain in power slowed down.

Scorchien · February 2016

No skill cap .. . System will be abused .. game will bleed ...then they will try to change i t..

Bad design decision , you would think they would know better

Quazal.A · February 2016

All i will say on this, look at the players who bitch about EvE and the fact new players are at such a dis-advantage , this will eventually be the same, however , personally i think its right, play longer = stronger...

Gyva02 · February 2016

Scorchien said:

No skill cap .. . System will be abused .. game will bleed ...then they will try to change i t..

Bad design decision , you would think they would know better

Could you give us your opinion on how this would be abused?

Kyleran · February 2016

Negatory ghost rider, should be done like EVE does, 28+ years of skill progression to learn, but hard caps all over the place so new joiners can catch up to 10 yr vets.

This sounds like a bad decision.

waynejr2 · February 2016

RexKushman said:

I agree that long term players should be able to continue their progression and advance their characters. An infinitely expanding power gap, which is what this sounds like, seems to be a very short sighted idea. I can't imagine that in the long term many new players will stick around when their is no way for them to ever get on equal footing with longer term players. What would be the point of playing if by design you'll never catch up?

Allow skills to be lowered when fighting someone with a lower skill number. The greater the difference the greater the loss.

Xyire · February 2016

If new players are forever at a disadvantage this will fail.

I like infinite progression, but unless there's some way of catching up or the difference in power is trivial at some point (soft cap) its just not going to work - unless there are full realm resets every so often so new players would be able to start with everyone else.

Your example that players would have other super powerful folks in their realm isn't going to help anything. For a pvp game to work, you need to be able to compete. I'm not advocating the everyone gets their stats normalized gameplay for pvp... in fact I hate that, but you have to know that if you spend X amount of time or achieve some feat, you will be on an even playing field eventually.

Gyva02 · February 2016

Xyire said:

If new players are forever at a disadvantage this will fail.

I like infinite progression, but unless there's some way of catching up or the difference in power is trivial at some point (soft cap) its just not going to work - unless there are full realm resets every so often so new players would be able to start with everyone else.

Your example that players would have other super powerful folks in their realm isn't going to help anything. For a pvp game to work, you need to be able to compete. I'm not advocating the everyone gets their stats normalized gameplay for pvp... in fact I hate that, but you have to know that if you spend X amount of time or achieve some feat, you will be on an even playing field eventually.

You can catch up, just put in more game time or play better than those at the top and you'll eventually catch up

Or just hang in there and tuff it out and as time goes you'll get stronger...

And no, I don't know that after a certain amount of time people should be on equal footing, a 5 year vet putting in the same hours a day as a 1 year vet SHOULD be stronger, they have done more and experienced more, they should be stronger...

Xyire · February 2016

Gyva02 said:

Xyire said:

If new players are forever at a disadvantage this will fail.

I like infinite progression, but unless there's some way of catching up or the difference in power is trivial at some point (soft cap) its just not going to work - unless there are full realm resets every so often so new players would be able to start with everyone else.

Your example that players would have other super powerful folks in their realm isn't going to help anything. For a pvp game to work, you need to be able to compete. I'm not advocating the everyone gets their stats normalized gameplay for pvp... in fact I hate that, but you have to know that if you spend X amount of time or achieve some feat, you will be on an even playing field eventually.

You can catch up, just put in more game time or play better than those at the top and you'll eventually catch up Or just hang in there and tuff it out and as time goes you'll get stronger...

And no, I don't know that after a certain amount of time people should be on equal footing, a 5 year vet putting in the same hours a day as a 1 year vet SHOULD be stronger, they have done more and experienced more, they should be stronger...

If progression is linear, the 5 year vet would be 5 times stronger than the 1 year vet. Obviously that's unacceptable - or at least i hope that's obvious. If the progression is a root curve, always improving but by less and less as you get higher and higher then that's a soft cap and I agree that it sounds like a good idea.

If it is a root curve, the only thing to discuss would be will they get the curve right, which I'm willing to just assume they will.

Gyva02 · February 2016

Xyire said:

Gyva02 said:

Xyire said:

If new players are forever at a disadvantage this will fail.

I like infinite progression, but unless there's some way of catching up or the difference in power is trivial at some point (soft cap) its just not going to work - unless there are full realm resets every so often so new players would be able to start with everyone else.

Your example that players would have other super powerful folks in their realm isn't going to help anything. For a pvp game to work, you need to be able to compete. I'm not advocating the everyone gets their stats normalized gameplay for pvp... in fact I hate that, but you have to know that if you spend X amount of time or achieve some feat, you will be on an even playing field eventually.

You can catch up, just put in more game time or play better than those at the top and you'll eventually catch up Or just hang in there and tuff it out and as time goes you'll get stronger...

And no, I don't know that after a certain amount of time people should be on equal footing, a 5 year vet putting in the same hours a day as a 1 year vet SHOULD be stronger, they have done more and experienced more, they should be stronger...

If progression is linear, the 5 year vet would be 5 times stronger than the 1 year vet. Obviously that's unacceptable - or at least i hope that's obvious. If the progression is a root curve, always improving but by less and less as you get higher and higher then that's a soft cap and I agree that it sounds like a good idea.

If it is a root curve, the only thing to discuss would be will they get the curve right, which I'm willing to just assume they will.

They won't be 5 times stronger, it gets more and more difficult to gain a stat as you progress, no clue as to what the formula will be but if you watch the video he explains the gains will be very very very small... but none the less, stronger...

Xyire · February 2016

That's great then, if the gains get smaller as you get higher that's exactly as it should be (that design is considered a soft cap since at a certain point any additional improvement is minimal compared to time / effort exerted). I think the negative opinions in this thread were in response to the statement that there would be no soft cap!

Octagon7711 · February 2016

Reminds me of the ESO champion system. They had to cap it because of complaints that newer players would never be able to catch up to high level players. They also had people who had lots of extra time just grinding out points to reach a high level quickly. Devs underestimate players who use Mountain Dew and Hot Pockets, playing for days without sleep or little sleep just so they can run around beating up the normal levelers. Some even take vacation time off from work.

Dahkoht · February 2016

Eh personally like it. As with most of their decisions so far.

"Most" players don't want servers , subs , decisions that matter with your characters and so on that they have said are tenets of their game so far.

This seems quite in line with the overall tone of the game. As such it's not being designed to please the most people.

If they game had been proposed to be like most of the other modern mmo's I wouldn't have bought into it for a few hundred. It's decisions like this that make me glad they are sticking along the same original ideas.

Kyleran · February 2016

Gyva02 said:

Xyire said:

Gyva02 said:

Xyire said:

If new players are forever at a disadvantage this will fail.

I like infinite progression, but unless there's some way of catching up or the difference in power is trivial at some point (soft cap) its just not going to work - unless there are full realm resets every so often so new players would be able to start with everyone else.

Your example that players would have other super powerful folks in their realm isn't going to help anything. For a pvp game to work, you need to be able to compete. I'm not advocating the everyone gets their stats normalized gameplay for pvp... in fact I hate that, but you have to know that if you spend X amount of time or achieve some feat, you will be on an even playing field eventually.

You can catch up, just put in more game time or play better than those at the top and you'll eventually catch up Or just hang in there and tuff it out and as time goes you'll get stronger...

And no, I don't know that after a certain amount of time people should be on equal footing, a 5 year vet putting in the same hours a day as a 1 year vet SHOULD be stronger, they have done more and experienced more, they should be stronger...

If progression is linear, the 5 year vet would be 5 times stronger than the 1 year vet. Obviously that's unacceptable - or at least i hope that's obvious. If the progression is a root curve, always improving but by less and less as you get higher and higher then that's a soft cap and I agree that it sounds like a good idea.

If it is a root curve, the only thing to discuss would be will they get the curve right, which I'm willing to just assume they will.

They won't be 5 times stronger, it gets more and more difficult to gain a stat as you progress, no clue as to what the formula will be but if you watch the video he explains the gains will be very very very small... but none the less, stronger...

If their system doesnt closely resemble DAOCs I'll be very surprised.

Soarlozer · February 2016

I personally think no capping and instead doing exponential power is dumb (Which is still soft capping imo). Instead of someone putting in 5 months to be 100% and being done with it, now someone with a year ahead of you is going to be 100.00000002%-105% (since they honestly can't make it that op for the vets) just to please someone that has a hard on for progression. Some stuff should be left in the past.

I really prefer mmos that make the game more about the world and the adventures you have within it (not linear quests). The whole 5 year player should be stronger makes no sense, you have more experience. In the real world there is plenty of prodigys that can excel at something over someone that has been doing it longer. My ideal game is something with minimal character grind but lots of equipment/resource grind but the equipment only making a 5-10% difference with each "tier" of equipment being 1-2% better. But of course it is a niche pvp game with a working alignment system so being a blue is beneficial while being red isn't totally worthless or the favored thing. Pros and cons.

But w/e the mmo genre is so stangant with casual theme parks, the more variety the better.

JDis25 · February 2016

A PvP game with no skill cap? Why, So the no-lifers can feel better about themselves even if they are bad players? Sounds like people with a job and other hobbies may as well not even play. What a terrible idea.

Axxar · February 2016

Stats will have soft caps in CU. Mark even says it specifically in the video linked by the OP a little after the 30 minute mark.

NetSage · February 2016

Kyleran said:

Negatory ghost rider, should be done like EVE does, 28+ years of skill progression to learn, but hard caps all over the place so new joiners can catch up to 10 yr vets.

This sounds like a bad decision.

This is the only correct answer. Make a perfect character near impossible(and probably impossible through updates) to max but don't make them impossible to catch up in a certain aspect of the game.

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No hard or soft caps, you'll be able to progress your skills/levels indefinitely!

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No hard or soft caps, you'll be able to progress your skills/levels indefinitely!

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV