Your opinion illustrates what's wrong with gaming today. They can't come up with good ideas, and they need to make a game out of the negligible amount they have. The people in gaming industry today consist of some that need to make a game, and others that want to make money, but none that wants to make a game.
What are you talking about .. there are tons of good ideas. - MOBA is a good idea - The Division sounds like a good idea - Deus Ex is a great idea - Dishonored is a great idea - heck .. even D3 is a good use of old ideas + new mechanics
and what is wrong with making money if their products entertains? Do you care if a game is fun because devs want to make money? I don't.
You say "not just learning to be a god" as though that's a common failing with RPGs. It isn't a common theme first of all. And second, it's not even a bad theme.
Jeez, its like you take an angle and run with it. You know I am not literally talking about learning to become a god. I am talking about the progression is all MMORPG are about now. You become vastly more powerful than where you start. Almost all MMORPG are like that. The alternative is just being another person in the world without over the type advancement or somewhere in between.
Is it cheaper to force players to revisit old zones repeatedly? Yes. Is it more fun to explore new zones? Yes. This is why developers tend not to rehash old zones, but instead provide new zones. New zones are more fun to explore.
You're not taking the up the idea. Both ideas to complete the content you have to visit everywhere else. You're simply not forced down a funnel.
Modern MMORPG are set up like states with corresponding level ranges. Once you are out of those leveling ranges the content expires and longer viable content. If you skipped it for whatever reason its not explored or used content. Its wasted content. Once you are past these levels ranges this whole map outside of the main cities practically just as well not even be there. This isn't a one shot RPG. This is a MMORPG with an on going saga where the world is no longer relevant or usable. Its one thing for quest to be one shot is another when the whole zone is one shot.
Now if that same map was levelless you could essentially have the map divided into zones of challenge. Purely an example before you run with this... zone of challenge could be easy, intermediate, hard, group required. This gives you greater flexibility with zones. The content never expires. You are free to unlock content where and when you want.
Lord of the Rings actually did involve the functional equivalent of "kill 10 orcs" quests every so often throughout the story. Just like a good MMORPG it also involved a lot of other quests, including killing things that weren't orcs or killing orcs with different abilities. Procedural kill quests would be even more repetitive and less interesting than the current unique-story-paired-with-unique-mobs quests we have right now, so I'm not sure why you think that addresses the problem.
Please tell me where Gandolf told the Hobbits to kill 10 orcs and bring back their axes as proof lol. Most quest are less than procedural. Procedural quest can be way more varied than cheap filler quest.
Questhub typical I am getting playing on Nostalrius WoW Vanilla Server. Kill pigs and cats because their over populated and keep balance of nature. Kill cats and pigs standing around.
Procedural could be. Farmer Joe scenarios.
Farm animals are under attack by wolves. You kill all the wolves and save animals.
You see farm is on fire. Orcs have come and raided the farm. You save farm. Farmer says orcs kidnapped his daughter. You get quest to go kill orcs and retrieve his daughter in an instance for you.
Farmer Joe needs help harvesting water melons and is offering to pay. You gain farming skills and he gives you a high quality seed.
Farmer Joe hears noises coming from his cellar. He ask you to investigate. You find out that he has nest of creatures down there coming in through a broken wall that leads to a small dungeon. You kill the queen.
That's what a good procedural quest system handing task that aren't story epics could be like. Characters pull scenarios out of a pool of scenarios that match their NPC type. Farmer Joe gets Farmer scenarios. Scenarios can also link to random ones. For instance instead of a creature in the cellar it could have been a NPC hiding from something and begs for your help.
By your own principle variety from one quest giver would be better than just one by default lol.
Your opinion illustrates what's wrong with gaming today. They can't come up with good ideas, and they need to make a game out of the negligible amount they have. The people in gaming industry today consist of some that need to make a game, and others that want to make money, but none that wants to make a game.
What are you talking about .. there are tons of good ideas. - MOBA is a good idea - The Division sounds like a good idea - Deus Ex is a great idea - Dishonored is a great idea - heck .. even D3 is a good use of old ideas + new mechanics
and what is wrong with making money if their products entertains? Do you care if a game is fun because devs want to make money? I don't.
All forms of entertainment excel when those that create are in it to make something great that they themselves would enjoy first, and something that could make lots of money second; this should be straightforward. One would think, anyways.
And thanks for the chuckle with the D3 old ideas with new mechanics; a concept and recipe you've done nothing but dismiss for years on end.
Stay consistent there, Mr. Seldon (One the Cat Slayer).
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Quests are a boring grind to me, I don't give a shit about your opinion. Your opinion that they offer more variety than a different form game play is purely subjective.
At least once in this thread, and probably several times by this point I have walked through how quests are objectively more varied.
There are more activity types (killing, gathering, delivering, playing plants vs. zombies) and there is more variety within activity types (killing ~20 mob types in an hour vs. grinding ~3 mob types)
So your claim that this is "subjective" is absolute nonsense.
Why say nonsensical things? Why not accept reality, and go the safe route: "quests are objectively more varied but I just don't like them" is a perfectly fine (though unusual) opinion to hold. It accepts the reality around you, while admitting that in spit of that reality you still dislike quests.
But you are still doing 1 thing. Running quests. You don't decide what you do, you simply run a quest and do whatever happens to be on the list. You're not killing a specific mob or gathering a specific flower, you are doing a damn checklist. That is all you are doing.
What you want is not variety, you want someone else to tell you what to do. Variety would mean I have the option to choose. Quests do not give you an option to choose. You do what it says.
Jeez, its like you take an angle and run with it. You know I am not literally talking about learning to become a god. I am talking about the progression is all MMORPG are about now. You become vastly more powerful than where you start. Almost all MMORPG are like that. The alternative is just being another person in the world without over the type advancement or somewhere in between.
You're not taking the up the idea. Both ideas to complete the content you have to visit everywhere else. You're simply not forced down a funnel.
Modern MMORPG are set up like states with corresponding level ranges.
Once you are out of those leveling ranges the content expires and longer viable content. If you skipped it for whatever reason its not explored or used content. Its wasted content. Once you are past these levels ranges this whole map outside of the main cities practically just as well not even be there. This isn't a one shot RPG. This is a MMORPG with an on going saga where the world is no longer relevant or usable. Its one thing for quest to be one shot is another when the whole zone is one shot.
Now if that same map was levelless you could essentially have the map divided into zones of challenge. Purely an example before you run with this... zone of challenge could be easy, intermediate, hard, group required. This gives you greater flexibility with zones. The content never expires. You are free to unlock content where and when you want.
Please tell me where Gandolf told the Hobbits to kill 10 orcs and bring back their axes as proof lol. Most quest are less than procedural. Procedural quest can be way more varied than cheap filler quest.
Questhub typical I am getting playing on Nostalrius WoW Vanilla Server. Kill pigs and cats because their over populated and keep balance of nature. Kill cats and pigs standing around.
Procedural could be. Farmer Joe scenarios.
Farm animals are under attack by wolves. You kill all the wolves and save animals.
You see farm is on fire. Orcs have come and raided the farm. You save farm. Farmer says orcs kidnapped his daughter. You get quest to go kill orcs and retrieve his daughter in an instance for you.
Farmer Joe needs help harvesting water melons and is offering to pay. You gain farming skills and he gives you a high quality seed.
Farmer Joe hears noises coming from his cellar. He ask you to investigate. You find out that he has nest of creatures down there coming in through a broken wall that leads to a small dungeon. You kill the queen.
That's what a good procedural quest system handing task that aren't story epics could be like. Characters pull scenarios out of a pool of scenarios that match their NPC type. Farmer Joe gets Farmer scenarios. Scenarios can also link to random ones. For instance instead of a creature in the cellar it could have been a NPC hiding from something and begs for your help.
By your own principle variety from one quest giver would be better than just one by default lol.
My "god" character kills 1-5 regular orc mobs at a time in WOW at endgame while questing. Accept that your premise is flawed. Just because my character doesn't look like a shit-covered peasant doesn't mean the game is bad (quite the opposite.)
Your argument for why we should be forced to repeat zones we've already fully explored and mastered is still nonexistent. (Also a lot of those sentences didn't make sense.) For like the 6th time: is it more fun to explore someplace new or someplace old? MMORPGs are games. Games' purpose is fun. Exploring new places is more fun. End of discussion.
Gandalf didn't give the quest out, the quest just dynamically hit the party when orcs attacked. Lord of the Rings wasn't a story about Legolas grinding endlessly respawning orcs to level up. It was a story that moved through many different scenes, just like quests take you through many different situations each with a story bit.
When you make a bad decision to play WOW's worst quality quests (vanilla WOW quests) don't blame the game for the resulting lack of fun. It's your fault that you chose badly.
Your quest examples are not "procedural". They're each hand-made quests like normal. The only difference is how you receive each quest, which doesn't provide much difference at all (since your actions and decisions will be identical either way.)
If you played modern WOW you'd realize that variety already exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But you are still doing 1 thing. Running quests. You don't decide what you do, you simply run a quest and do whatever happens to be on the list. You're not killing a specific mob or gathering a specific flower, you are doing a damn checklist. That is all you are doing.
What you want is not variety, you want someone else to tell you what to do. Variety would mean I have the option to choose. Quests do not give you an option to choose. You do what it says.
Don't act blind.
Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
Man with Binoculars #2: "What are you talking about?! NOTHING is out there! All I see is a big tan blur!"
Do you think it's more likely that the second man is correct, or that the second man is being deliberately obtuse?
He just needs to focus his binoculars to see the details of the situation, instead of willfully ignoring those details. Ignorance doesn't cause things not to exist.
Same goes for gaming.
You're saying, 'all games are the same. They're 'hitting buttons to do things'. There's only 1 thing: a big tan blur!'
I'm saying, "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a quest to kill orcs, a quest where you give out quests, a quest where you do bombing runs against demon targets, a quest where you sneak into an ogre compound, and a quest where you play Plants vs. Zombies!"
Ignorance doesn't cause that variety not to exist. Focus your binoculars.
Variety isn't the option to choose. That's choice.
Variety is variety. Choice is choice. They're different concepts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But you are still doing 1 thing. Running quests. You don't decide what you do, you simply run a quest and do whatever happens to be on the list. You're not killing a specific mob or gathering a specific flower, you are doing a damn checklist. That is all you are doing.
What you want is not variety, you want someone else to tell you what to do. Variety would mean I have the option to choose. Quests do not give you an option to choose. You do what it says.
Don't act blind.
Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
Man with Binoculars #2: "What are you talking about?! NOTHING is out there! All I see is a big tan blur!"
Do you think it's more likely that the second man is correct, or that the second man is being deliberately obtuse?
He just needs to focus his binoculars to see the details of the situation, instead of willfully ignoring those details. Ignorance doesn't cause things not to exist.
Same goes for gaming.
You're saying, 'all games are the same. They're 'hitting buttons to do things'. There's only 1 thing: a big tan blur!'
I'm saying, "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a quest to kill orcs, a quest where you give out quests, a quest where you do bombing runs against demon targets, a quest where you sneak into an ogre compound, and a quest where you play Plants vs. Zombies!"
Ignorance doesn't cause that variety not to exist. Focus your binoculars.
Variety isn't the option to choose. That's choice.
Variety is variety. Choice is choice. They're different concepts.
Suppose you like the bombing, or the crafting, or the kill of demons and would like to do more of it. You can't because the only option is to continue following the quest indicators hoping for something else fun to do. You wish there were a variety of options to choose from. Yet you can't choose anything at all. There is only one option. Follow the quests. Without the option to choose, variety is pointless.
My original point is when your goal is to advance your character any and all options can be a grind. You must complete certain things in order to gain experience and advance the character. You look at bouncing from quest to quest fun. That doesn't remove the fact that you are grinding, it just makes it a fun grind for you. I do not like quests, so therefore it is not a fun grind. It's a damn boring one.
I absolutely never said 'all games are the same', now you're making stuff up. Quests don't provide variety, they provide a guide, an instruction set rather than making your own rules on how you advance.
Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
Man with Binoculars #2: "Yeah, and in your world someone else will tell you what to do and when to do it. In my world I WILL CHOOSE WHEN AND WHAT TO DO!"
Suppose you like the bombing, or the crafting, or the kill of demons and would like to do more of it. You can't because the only option is to continue following the quest indicators hoping for something else fun to do. You wish there were a variety of options to choose from. Yet you can't choose anything at all. There is only one option. Follow the quests. Without the option to choose, variety is pointless.
My original point is when your goal is to advance your character any and all options can be a grind. You must complete certain things in order to gain experience and advance the character. You look at bouncing from quest to quest fun. That doesn't remove the fact that you are grinding, it just makes it a fun grind for you. I do not like quests, so therefore it is not a fun grind. It's a damn boring one.
I absolutely never said 'all games are the same', now you're making stuff up. Quests don't provide variety, they provide a guide, an instruction set rather than making your own rules on how you advance.
Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
Man with Binoculars #2: "Yeah, and in your world someone else will tell you what to do and when to do it. In my world I WILL CHOOSE WHEN AND WHAT TO DO!"
Fixed that for you.
Here in the real world, almost no questing is "linear". You do have choice.
Vermillion literally just posted the map showing how most parts of WOW leveling have 2-4 zones to choose from. That's just the zone choice. Within each zone you have choices too, since you don't have to do every quest in a zone to advance and can easily skip the stuff you don't like.
So instead of pretending "you can't choose anything at all", let's instead discuss reality.
If you like bombing, you can do the bombing run a couple times (in that specific example they added a second daily quest so you can bombing-run again once a day.) But you can't choose to eliminate all variety. You can't choose excessive repetition.
Because as I've pointed out over and over in this thread: if you let players engage in excessive repetition, they will do so, and then they will quit the game out of boredom (because excessive repetition is boring.)
Saying any options can be a grind doesn't go against anything I've said. I've just pointed out that quest games are less grindy. Also, if I consider going from quest to quest fun then it isn't a grind. Because grind is a subjective measure of whether or not a game has provided too little variety relative to the time investment., and if I find it fun I'm never going to call it a grind. (Again, keep in mind my definition of grind is based solely on how I've watched other players use the term since the dawn of MMORPGs.)
You didn't say all games are the same, but I guess you missed the point there.
In reality questing as a game mechanic provides lots of variety.
You decided to zoom your binoculars back too far, summarizing the mechanic as "doing questing". This deliberately blurs all of the important details to questing (where the variety actually exists.)
My point was you're only a half-step away from summarizing the entire game as "pushing buttons", zooming out further, over-simplifying even more, and intentionally ignoring all the variety that exists in games.
So again, let's discuss reality. Let's discuss the actual variety that actually exists as a result of quest systems, and admit that this variety causes games to be objectively less grindy than the endless-mob-grind games of the past.
After you admit those objective truths, you're free to subjectively consider quests a grind, and you're free to hate quests because they force you to do varied things. I'm not telling you what you do or don't enjoy, I'm only stating objective facts about the purpose of questing (variety) and how variety relates to grind (which is why questing has been so successful when done correctly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because grind is a subjective measure of whether or not a game has provided too little variety relative to the time investment., and if I find it fun I'm never going to call it a grind.
If you are playing a game about killing monsters and getting epic loot, and you are in the city twiddling your thumbs and complaining how crafting or taming is not a viable way to progress in the game, you are playing the game wrong. Pure and simple.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't think that the word "grind" is always used with a bad connotation. In every RPG I've ever played since the '80s, I found whatever the core loop was fun or not. And then used the word "grind" as a good thing if the core loop is compelling-- only a bad thing if it's painful/boring/lacking variety like @axehilt said.
My only prerequisite for an RPG is that you play a character, a hero, a nurse, a donkey etc. What's wrong with so many games is that you can only play the a role of a hero. Though in early PnP games most players usually played heroes, but those heroes were often quite different from each other. MMORPGs should come to realize this and with the technology we have in use create a wide variety of different kinds of roles, different kinds of crafts, different kinds of professions, different kinds of specializations, not just the role of a craftsman hero.
For reading here's an early AD&D non-combat proficiency list:
(saving space)
AND although story campaigns where created that you could buy the real 'magic' was that the 'story' was really an interaction between the story teller and the players. The players could change the outcome and more often both sides didnt honestly know how it would all turn out so it was fun for both the story teller and the players
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If you are playing a game about killing monsters and getting epic loot, and you are in the city twiddling your thumbs and complaining how crafting or taming is not a viable way to progress in the game, you are playing the game wrong. Pure and simple.
No, you aren't playing the game wrong. You are playing the wrong game.
Here in my world, almost no questing is "linear". You do have choice.
Vermillion literally just posted the map showing how most parts of WOW leveling have 2-4 zones to choose from. That's just the zone choice. Within each zone you have choices too, since you don't have to do every quest in a zone to advance and can easily skip the stuff you don't like.
Actually, if you look at the map, that kind of choice only exists in the eearly levels. You know, that point where you're dumped into one of a few starting zones and have little means of getting around until you level for a while. By the time you progress far enough, typically you are now getting into the zones which there isn't choice in, as it's faction-specific territories up until you start hitting the high level content, which then narrows down to single zones for progress. That map doesn't support your claim at all and instead shows that the progression of the game narrows in scope and available quest options/directions quite a lot as you level.
That choice you want to claim, is pretty fictitious. The suggestion that players can ignore some of the quests to skip grind still means they are doing more questing, it doesn't change the status of the problem. Beyond that, your statement that they don't need to complete every quest to progress only stands true because of something Ver complained about before, the devaluation of levels/progress.
Here in the real world, most MMOs and most questing is linear. If you'd like to share an example where it actually does stray, feel free to do so, but such is seldom if ever the case because of the heavily scripted and finite nature of quests as a way to lead players through environments to progress in games.
" Let's discuss the actual variety that actually exists as a result of quest systems..."
Lets discuss that you just repeated the same mistake for the millionth time.
QUESTS DO NOT ADD VARIETY, THEY ENFORCE THE EXPERIENCE OF VARIETY THAT ALREADY EXISTS.
A quest can't offer you a form of gameplay that isn't in the game. All you are taking about is offering a means to add extra incentive and reward to these pre-existing activities.
Trolling about and claiming your opinions as "objective truths" is endlessly infuriating and supremely uninformative. The reality is simply that it's a reward mechanic, one of many.
After you admit those objective truths, you're free to hate quests because they force you to do things. They only offer variety in the scope of what they are defined to offer you, without any freedom to choose to do other activities of potentially more interest without the loss of rewards/incentive. Next time you wish to offer objective facts, make sure they actually fulfill the definition of those terms instead of your own whim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I find if I'm playing a linear quest driven game I prefer that the path be fairly direct and that there be no need to click on anyone in game and talk to them. I'd rather scripted events just trigger when you enter certain areas.
If I'm playing an open world game I'd rather have no quests, a large world, and no guidance.
The upcoming game no man's sky kind of sounds like it might be interesting. Apparently the universe will be so vast that it's unlikely for you to meet another player along the way. That could be good and bad. It also has procedurally generated content. This could also be good or bad. It may make the world feel a bit empty. It sounds like it might be worth checking out though.
I don't think that the word "grind" is always used with a bad connotation. In every RPG I've ever played since the '80s, I found whatever the core loop was fun or not. And then used the word "grind" as a good thing if the core loop is compelling-- only a bad thing if it's painful/boring/lacking variety like @axehilt said.
I find if I'm playing a linear quest driven game I prefer that the path be fairly direct and that there be no need to click on anyone in game and talk to them. I'd rather scripted events just trigger when you enter certain areas.
If I'm playing an open world game I'd rather have no quests, a large world, and no guidance.
The two are NOT mutually exclusive. For example, both style of quests exist in AC Syndicate.
My "god" character kills 1-5 regular orc mobs at a time in WOW at endgame while questing. Accept that your premise is flawed. Just because my character doesn't look like a shit-covered peasant doesn't mean the game is bad (quite the opposite.)
Not what I am talking about at all. Not even sure where you're going with this. The point I was making is that MMORPG focus on making you super powerful without any other substance. There is nothing wrong with playing as an ordinary adventurer in an online world.
Your argument for why we should be forced to repeat zones we've already fully explored and mastered is still nonexistent. (Also a lot of those sentences didn't make sense.) For like the 6th time: is it more fun to explore someplace new or someplace old? MMORPGs are games. Games' purpose is fun. Exploring new places is more fun. End of discussion.
And your argument is hypocritical. You claim you want variety. You then turn around and saying visiting a zone more than once is repetitious. But end gaming which is the majority "real game" in this genre repeats the same raids and dailies over and over. Visiting 30 zones 6 times is worst than visiting 24 zones ones and 4 zones on repeat for 6 month to a year? That isn't repetitious? Ok...
Gandalf didn't give the quest out, the quest just dynamically hit the party when orcs attacked. Lord of the Rings wasn't a story about Legolas grinding endlessly respawning orcs to level up. It was a story that moved through many different scenes, just like quests take you through many different situations each with a story bit.
Neither was it about Frodo leveling up 60 times and laughing as level 15 orc hordes tickle him with their axes across his head. Things happen dynamically in a story is drastically different than typical MMORPG quest drivel.
When you make a bad decision to play WOW's worst quality quests (vanilla WOW quests) don't blame the game for the resulting lack of fun. It's your fault that you chose badly.
I have played up to MOP. Outside of Cata most quest are kill, fetch or deliver quest.
Your quest examples are not "procedural". They're each hand-made quests like normal. The only difference is how you receive each quest, which doesn't provide much difference at all (since your actions and decisions will be identical either way.)
ALL content is hand-made on some level. Procedural is the system creating story from a pool of possibility. That's what I was describing. Example... Farmer Joe is eligible for prefix scenario 20-50. 35 is selected. 35 has 1-25 variables. Variable 15 is selected. Variable 15 gives choice for 3 outcomes.
I have played up to MOP. Outside of Cata most quest are kill, fetch or deliver quest.
Kill quests can be fun too .. depending on the game, and the combat.
There are tons of kill quests in ACS, D3, heck .. even Fallout 4. I don't see a problem. Sure, many MMORPGs have sub-par combat, and presentation of the kill quest, but it is a matter of implementation, not fundamentals.
Comments
- MOBA is a good idea
- The Division sounds like a good idea
- Deus Ex is a great idea
- Dishonored is a great idea
- heck .. even D3 is a good use of old ideas + new mechanics
and what is wrong with making money if their products entertains? Do you care if a game is fun because devs want to make money? I don't.
You're not taking the up the idea. Both ideas to complete the content you have to visit everywhere else. You're simply not forced down a funnel.
Modern MMORPG are set up like states with corresponding level ranges.
Once you are out of those leveling ranges the content expires and longer viable content. If you skipped it for whatever reason its not explored or used content. Its wasted content. Once you are past these levels ranges this whole map outside of the main cities practically just as well not even be there. This isn't a one shot RPG. This is a MMORPG with an on going saga where the world is no longer relevant or usable. Its one thing for quest to be one shot is another when the whole zone is one shot.
Now if that same map was levelless you could essentially have the map divided into zones of challenge. Purely an example before you run with this... zone of challenge could be easy, intermediate, hard, group required. This gives you greater flexibility with zones. The content never expires. You are free to unlock content where and when you want.
Please tell me where Gandolf told the Hobbits to kill 10 orcs and bring back their axes as proof lol. Most quest are less than procedural. Procedural quest can be way more varied than cheap filler quest.
Questhub typical I am getting playing on Nostalrius WoW Vanilla Server. Kill pigs and cats because their over populated and keep balance of nature. Kill cats and pigs standing around.
Procedural could be. Farmer Joe scenarios.
- Farm animals are under attack by wolves. You kill all the wolves and save animals.
- You see farm is on fire. Orcs have come and raided the farm. You save farm. Farmer says orcs kidnapped his daughter. You get quest to go kill orcs and retrieve his daughter in an instance for you.
- Farmer Joe needs help harvesting water melons and is offering to pay. You gain farming skills and he gives you a high quality seed.
- Farmer Joe hears noises coming from his cellar. He ask you to investigate. You find out that he has nest of creatures down there coming in through a broken wall that leads to a small dungeon. You kill the queen.
That's what a good procedural quest system handing task that aren't story epics could be like. Characters pull scenarios out of a pool of scenarios that match their NPC type. Farmer Joe gets Farmer scenarios. Scenarios can also link to random ones. For instance instead of a creature in the cellar it could have been a NPC hiding from something and begs for your help.By your own principle variety from one quest giver would be better than just one by default lol.
And thanks for the chuckle with the D3 old ideas with new mechanics; a concept and recipe you've done nothing but dismiss for years on end.
Stay consistent there, Mr. Seldon (One the Cat Slayer).
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What you want is not variety, you want someone else to tell you what to do. Variety would mean I have the option to choose. Quests do not give you an option to choose. You do what it says.
Your argument for why we should be forced to repeat zones we've already fully explored and mastered is still nonexistent. (Also a lot of those sentences didn't make sense.) For like the 6th time: is it more fun to explore someplace new or someplace old? MMORPGs are games. Games' purpose is fun. Exploring new places is more fun. End of discussion.
Gandalf didn't give the quest out, the quest just dynamically hit the party when orcs attacked. Lord of the Rings wasn't a story about Legolas grinding endlessly respawning orcs to level up. It was a story that moved through many different scenes, just like quests take you through many different situations each with a story bit.
When you make a bad decision to play WOW's worst quality quests (vanilla WOW quests) don't blame the game for the resulting lack of fun. It's your fault that you chose badly.
Your quest examples are not "procedural". They're each hand-made quests like normal. The only difference is how you receive each quest, which doesn't provide much difference at all (since your actions and decisions will be identical either way.)
If you played modern WOW you'd realize that variety already exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Don't act blind.
- Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
- Man with Binoculars #2: "What are you talking about?! NOTHING is out there! All I see is a big tan blur!"
Do you think it's more likely that the second man is correct, or that the second man is being deliberately obtuse?He just needs to focus his binoculars to see the details of the situation, instead of willfully ignoring those details. Ignorance doesn't cause things not to exist.
Same goes for gaming.
- You're saying, 'all games are the same. They're 'hitting buttons to do things'. There's only 1 thing: a big tan blur!'
- I'm saying, "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a quest to kill orcs, a quest where you give out quests, a quest where you do bombing runs against demon targets, a quest where you sneak into an ogre compound, and a quest where you play Plants vs. Zombies!"
Ignorance doesn't cause that variety not to exist. Focus your binoculars.Variety isn't the option to choose. That's choice.
Variety is variety. Choice is choice. They're different concepts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My original point is when your goal is to advance your character any and all options can be a grind. You must complete certain things in order to gain experience and advance the character. You look at bouncing from quest to quest fun. That doesn't remove the fact that you are grinding, it just makes it a fun grind for you. I do not like quests, so therefore it is not a fun grind. It's a damn boring one.
I absolutely never said 'all games are the same', now you're making stuff up. Quests don't provide variety, they provide a guide, an instruction set rather than making your own rules on how you advance.
- Man with Binoculars #1: "Wow there's a lot of stuff out there. I see a tan canyon, an eagle, a cactus, and a hot springs!"
- Man with Binoculars #2: "Yeah, and in your world someone else will tell you what to do and when to do it. In my world I WILL CHOOSE WHEN AND WHAT TO DO!"
Fixed that for you.Vermillion literally just posted the map showing how most parts of WOW leveling have 2-4 zones to choose from. That's just the zone choice. Within each zone you have choices too, since you don't have to do every quest in a zone to advance and can easily skip the stuff you don't like.
So instead of pretending "you can't choose anything at all", let's instead discuss reality.
If you like bombing, you can do the bombing run a couple times (in that specific example they added a second daily quest so you can bombing-run again once a day.) But you can't choose to eliminate all variety. You can't choose excessive repetition.
Because as I've pointed out over and over in this thread: if you let players engage in excessive repetition, they will do so, and then they will quit the game out of boredom (because excessive repetition is boring.)
Saying any options can be a grind doesn't go against anything I've said. I've just pointed out that quest games are less grindy. Also, if I consider going from quest to quest fun then it isn't a grind. Because grind is a subjective measure of whether or not a game has provided too little variety relative to the time investment., and if I find it fun I'm never going to call it a grind. (Again, keep in mind my definition of grind is based solely on how I've watched other players use the term since the dawn of MMORPGs.)
You didn't say all games are the same, but I guess you missed the point there.
- In reality questing as a game mechanic provides lots of variety.
- You decided to zoom your binoculars back too far, summarizing the mechanic as "doing questing". This deliberately blurs all of the important details to questing (where the variety actually exists.)
- My point was you're only a half-step away from summarizing the entire game as "pushing buttons", zooming out further, over-simplifying even more, and intentionally ignoring all the variety that exists in games.
So again, let's discuss reality. Let's discuss the actual variety that actually exists as a result of quest systems, and admit that this variety causes games to be objectively less grindy than the endless-mob-grind games of the past.After you admit those objective truths, you're free to subjectively consider quests a grind, and you're free to hate quests because they force you to do varied things. I'm not telling you what you do or don't enjoy, I'm only stating objective facts about the purpose of questing (variety) and how variety relates to grind (which is why questing has been so successful when done correctly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
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Once upon a time....
That choice you want to claim, is pretty fictitious. The suggestion that players can ignore some of the quests to skip grind still means they are doing more questing, it doesn't change the status of the problem. Beyond that, your statement that they don't need to complete every quest to progress only stands true because of something Ver complained about before, the devaluation of levels/progress.
Here in the real world, most MMOs and most questing is linear. If you'd like to share an example where it actually does stray, feel free to do so, but such is seldom if ever the case because of the heavily scripted and finite nature of quests as a way to lead players through environments to progress in games.
" Let's discuss the actual variety that actually exists as a result of quest systems..."
Lets discuss that you just repeated the same mistake for the millionth time.
QUESTS DO NOT ADD VARIETY, THEY ENFORCE THE EXPERIENCE OF VARIETY THAT ALREADY EXISTS.
A quest can't offer you a form of gameplay that isn't in the game. All you are taking about is offering a means to add extra incentive and reward to these pre-existing activities.
Trolling about and claiming your opinions as "objective truths" is endlessly infuriating and supremely uninformative. The reality is simply that it's a reward mechanic, one of many.
After you admit those objective truths, you're free to hate quests because they force you to do things. They only offer variety in the scope of what they are defined to offer you, without any freedom to choose to do other activities of potentially more interest without the loss of rewards/incentive. Next time you wish to offer objective facts, make sure they actually fulfill the definition of those terms instead of your own whim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If I'm playing an open world game I'd rather have no quests, a large world, and no guidance.
The upcoming game no man's sky kind of sounds like it might be interesting. Apparently the universe will be so vast that it's unlikely for you to meet another player along the way. That could be good and bad. It also has procedurally generated content. This could also be good or bad. It may make the world feel a bit empty. It sounds like it might be worth checking out though.
And your argument is hypocritical. You claim you want variety. You then turn around and saying visiting a zone more than once is repetitious. But end gaming which is the majority "real game" in this genre repeats the same raids and dailies over and over. Visiting 30 zones 6 times is worst than visiting 24 zones ones and 4 zones on repeat for 6 month to a year? That isn't repetitious? Ok...
Neither was it about Frodo leveling up 60 times and laughing as level 15 orc hordes tickle him with their axes across his head. Things happen dynamically in a story is drastically different than typical MMORPG quest drivel.
I have played up to MOP. Outside of Cata most quest are kill, fetch or deliver quest.
ALL content is hand-made on some level. Procedural is the system creating story from a pool of possibility. That's what I was describing. Example... Farmer Joe is eligible for prefix scenario 20-50. 35 is selected. 35 has 1-25 variables. Variable 15 is selected. Variable 15 gives choice for 3 outcomes.