In theory everyone is talking about graphics, but realistically, there should be two distinct terms. Because some people are talking about graphics as an aesthetic quality, and some are talking about how technologically advanced the engine is.
I love how a game like Journey looks. It runs on a PS3, a low spec by now, yet it looks great. It is aesthetically pleasing. Many Nintendo games are aesthetically pleasing, yet Nintendo isn't known for using fancy game engines.
Some zones in Everquest are like that, aesthetically pleasing, but some are not. And it kind of makes sense, because Everquest didn't just have one art director, they had many over the years.
Well graphics is one of those kind of nebulous ideas that everyone has a different definition of. Honestly it drives me nuts. Loads of people try to say that WoW had/has fantastic graphics, when objectively it actually has terrible graphics. What they were confusing and conflating was the subjectivity of the art style. Objective measurements, like texture resolutions, poly counts, lighting quality, particle effects quality, etc. Those are quantifiable measurements.
Subjective things like art style are important, but people really need to stop equating art style with graphics. They're not the same.
when people speak of graphics they mean "over all". Mostly it's the style they're talking about, but could also be any one of those things that turns them off.
Personally graphics mean very little to me. It is all about the gameplay and if you read the Pantheon website and especially the Pantheon difference then you can tell exactly what type of game they are trying to release. I just think if Pantheon fails then that is the end of my MMO playing days. It is the only one that even slightly interests me. I couldn't give a rats arse about whether the graphics are AAA or not. It doesn't matter. After a week or two of playing you soon forget about the graphics. But the gameplay has to last you for years and years. That is what makes a game not the graphics.
I've bought old games on GOG.com that were far better than most AAA titles being released today. Sure the graphics suck but it is the gameplay that keeps me coming back for more.
Worrying about the graphics, especially when the game hasn't even entered pre-alpha yet just seems silly. I'm sure the graphics will improve with user testing and I'm sure the gameplay elements will be fleshed out also with user testing. Literally no one outside a very small group of testers has tested this game yet. Let's give it a chance OK? You might not like it now but come back in a year and I'll tell you now it'll be a completely different experience.
Oh and for those complaining of Twitch stream quality. That is a problem with Twitch. The highest bit rate you can stream at on Twitch is 1080p at 30fps at 3500kbps. The vast majority of Twitch streamers who are not partnered with Twitch stream at 720p at 60fps at 2000kbps. This is so people with slow internet can still watch the stream. So don't take the quality of the Twitch stream as any indication of the actual graphics. Look at the screenshots on the website for that. That is where you can see the real quality of the graphics and I think they look pretty good.
I can tell you, in pre-Alpha EQ did not look "nice" even for its time. It didn't even look "decent" in alpha footage I've seen. It was pretty late in the game that they managed to bring it up to par.
To that point, I never played EQ in its heyday because it looked horrible to me. I recall being at the video game store, by the EQ kiosk and having the product in hand because it sounded like fun but looking at the screen shots on the box always made me put it back.
It was lineage 2 that looked good enough to lure me in.
Pantheon looks decent given that is is done by a small team.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I can tell you, in pre-Alpha EQ did not look "nice" even for its time. It didn't even look "decent" in alpha footage I've seen. It was pretty late in the game that they managed to bring it up to par.
To that point, I never played EQ in its heyday because it looked horrible to me. I recall being at the video game store, by the EQ kiosk and having the product in hand because it sounded like fun but looking at the screen shots on the box always made me put it back.
It was lineage 2 that looked good enough to lure me in.
Pantheon looks decent given that is is done by a small team.
Sorry you missed out. Then again, if you hadn't played EQ by the time Lineage 2 came out you wouldn't be able to fully understand what made the original game so great.
Everquest Next had newer, professional graphics and total sh*t gameplay that almost nobody whod ever played EQ was interested in. I'd rather have it the other way. That said, this is alpha for Pantheon and thats when you work on game systems and not finished product graphics.
I can tell you, in pre-Alpha EQ did not look "nice" even for its time. It didn't even look "decent" in alpha footage I've seen. It was pretty late in the game that they managed to bring it up to par.
To that point, I never played EQ in its heyday because it looked horrible to me. I recall being at the video game store, by the EQ kiosk and having the product in hand because it sounded like fun but looking at the screen shots on the box always made me put it back.
It was lineage 2 that looked good enough to lure me in.
Pantheon looks decent given that is is done by a small team.
Sorry you missed out. Then again, if you hadn't played EQ by the time Lineage 2 came out you wouldn't be able to fully understand what made the original game so great.
Oh I get it just because Lineage 2 had many things that brought people together in its particular own way.
Unlike most modern games you would log in and then figure out what you were going to do or would get swept up on some sort of guild thing. It had its own stories pertaining to various areas as well as the people who inhabited the world.
But unlike those who say "game play is more important than graphics/art design" for me I need to be able to "sign into" the art design otherwise I will lose interest so quickly as to make it not worth the download.
Being a "visual person" that is extremely important.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh I get it just because Lineage 2 had many things that brought people together in its particular own way.
Unlike most modern games you would log in and then figure out what you were going to do or would get swept up on some sort of guild thing. It had its own stories pertaining to various areas as well as the people who inhabited the world.
But unlike those who say "game play is more important than graphics/art design" for me I need to be able to "sign into" the art design otherwise I will lose interest so quickly as to make it not worth the download.
Being a "visual person" that is extremely important.
I understand. This is a quote from a post I made on the official forums just yesterday:
While most Pantheon fans seem to share the same priority for gameplay over graphics, I still believe graphics are very important (but not at all for my benefit - I'm like you don't consider it top priority). Its all about what has come to be expected. Sure, the biggest supporters and current fanbase don't care as much, but if we want to see faster development or even regular development after launch, the game must be appealing to potential Pantheon fans and those fans are used to HQ art & graphics and a tendancy towards polish.
If you think only the oldschool FFXI, EQ, and VG fans will be playing Pantheon, I believe you're sorely mistaken. At least you better hope not if we want to be playing P:RoTF for years to come. Just as our respective games, though similar, haven't been found anywhere else, so too will many new players be completely amazed by Pantheon. It will be a unique experience for them, and they will be hooked just like we were all those years ago... but its contingent on getting them in the door. Maybe this is the marketer in me, but I believe that will have everything to do with their visual impressions. People are often shallow creatures, and will have no idea that P:RoTF is exactly what they wanted unless it looks like something they do.
So believe me, I know how important the look of the game is to people. Up until now they were building the foundation of the game, but if they choose to start showing people, I think its time to prioritize visuals.
So not only you captured the video at low rez, you gif is also even lower quality? gotcha. Nice try though man.
I'll show you why it was their fault the stream was garbage, not my capture.
This is a Full HD PNG with no compression of a 1080P stream recorded with high bitrate.
See how the LIVE overlay from Twitch stream in the top right, is razor sharp, but the text from the game is not and completely blurry.
My capture was very high quality. The stream they used was bad, their fault, not mine.
The stream was purposely tuned way down so more people could view it. If you are not partnered with Twitch ,viewers cannot adjust the video quality. It causes buffering and stopping for some people with slower connections.
My stream looked nothing like this. It wasn't crystal clear when Monty was moving but it was definitely better than this and when he stopped the actual zone looked beautiful. The character models do need updating and I'm sure they will get it farther down the development cycle.
At this point in the games development think more in terms of laggy input, broken game systems or constant crashes that keep you from testing. None of that was an issue.
Anyone remember the loot lag in WoW AFTER release? Bend down to loot....wait 5 minutes and then the character would finish and stand up.
For pre-alpha and even alpha the game is in a great state.
The worst part is the bobbing up and down when he ran. Its just so bad. All the stock unity assets are funny too. Combat looked very dull. If this is what some people are putting their hopes in then they will be disappointed. The game world looked super empty still and the mobs were all the same looking. I guess its still early, but Lucimia looks a lot better to me for the old EQ crowd.
There were orcs that looked like old style EQ orcs. The orcs had tents with colored patches, just like on Orc Hill, with familiar names like Orc Centurion. The combat was EQ speed and style, more or less.
I could go on.
To me, the threshold issue - the one ring to rule them all - is whether this game is the spiritual successor to EQ, and from what I observed it is.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Nah...the real successor will be Lucimia. There is actually legitimate development. Either way, this Pantheon game is literally years from being playable. It just looked empty as hell.
Nah...the real successor will be Lucimia. There is actually legitimate development. Either way, this Pantheon game is literally years from being playable. It just looked empty as hell.
Not particularly interested in an indie game pissing contest, but Pantheon looks to be further along both graphically and mechanically, despite both starting development around 2014. I totally hope that SoL makes it to launch, but seeing they're close minded to other rulesets such as PvP or anything else, I likely won't be playing.
Also, having read the available design docs for both games, Pantheon and its devs stand out as having a far deeper understanding of how to both recreate and innovate beyond what we've experienced in old school games. I mean, its not even a comparison. SoL are about this "class-less" skill point system that sucked in every game it appeared. More important than those things, I just can't take people seriously when their response to those who disagree with them is "if you don't like our way, f*ck you." That kind of childish stuff won't get you anywhere and that is literally how they respond to those who disagree with them.
Saga of Lucimia, you mean that game that started about a year after Pantheon's kickstarter and pretty much copied verbatim VR's tenets, then since has not shown it has an actual understanding of how to implement them?
Nah...the real successor will be Lucimia. There is actually legitimate development. Either way, this Pantheon game is literally years from being playable. It just looked empty as hell.
Eldaran said: Pantheon will release well before ours, so you'll have time to play it. Quite a few of us from the Dev Team and from our community will be playing Pantheon as well.
So believe me, I know how important the look of the game is to people. Up until now they were building the foundation of the game, but if they choose to start showing people, I think its time to prioritize visuals.
I completely agree. It's one of the reasons I stopped showing people my "in progress work" as I would be trying to explain to them what it would be but all they had to go on was what I was showing them.
It's possible that developers have forgotten that "the layman" isn't going to be able to see the big picture and is only going to concentrate on that one animation that makes the arm go up and down during attack.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I can tell you, in pre-Alpha EQ did not look "nice" even for its time. It didn't even look "decent" in alpha footage I've seen. It was pretty late in the game that they managed to bring it up to par.
To that point, I never played EQ in its heyday because it looked horrible to me. I recall being at the video game store, by the EQ kiosk and having the product in hand because it sounded like fun but looking at the screen shots on the box always made me put it back.
It was lineage 2 that looked good enough to lure me in.
Pantheon looks decent given that is is done by a small team.
This is really a testament to the fact that dismissing a game because of the graphics is a bad idea. You passed up on one of the greatest MMO experiences of all time (the greatest, imho) because you didn't think it was pretty enough and instead played some korean grindfest. L2 was fairly entertaining for a few months for what it was, at least, better than most garbage these days. Plus it didn't try to pickpocket me in a cash shop every day.
I still get chills when I hear the original EQ theme song and see the original splash screen or the original UI (yes it's horrible but I still miss it). There's nothing memorable about L2 to me other than some nice jiggly thingies on the dark elf / high elf chicks.
LMAO people say graphics don't matter. So if a game was a MUD you would play it?Let's be serious of course they matter.The main core of being a 3D VIDEO game is graphics,without them it is not a 3D video game.
Graphics and animations need to be decent and respectable ,at least for myself i can't stand silliness like Korean games tend to go too far.
I have no doubt what so ever graphics will be solid and animations will solid,now if this was a KR developer i would be very skeptical.Too bad really KR games tend to have some nice games if only the developer did not think i was some 10 year old kid needing a super smash bros fix.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
LMAO people say graphics don't matter. So if a game was a MUD you would play it?Let's be serious of course they matter.The main core of being a 3D VIDEO game is graphics,without them it is not a 3D video game.
Thats a gross misinterpretation.
Yes, they will matter but not at this point in the games development cycle.
LMAO people say graphics don't matter. So if a game was a MUD you would play it?Let's be serious of course they matter.The main core of being a 3D VIDEO game is graphics,without them it is not a 3D video game.
Graphics and animations need to be decent and respectable ,at least for myself i can't stand silliness like Korean games tend to go too far.
I have no doubt what so ever graphics will be solid and animations will solid,now if this was a KR developer i would be very skeptical.Too bad really KR games tend to have some nice games if only the developer did not think i was some 10 year old kid needing a super smash bros fix.
One would think that someone that has been posting here since 2004 with over 10k posts would have better understanding of the genre. However, you seem to be the exact opposite. You seem frustrated and angry at really nothing. Which is really to bad as someone that has wasted as much time as you should really know better.
Comments
Personally graphics mean very little to me. It is all about the gameplay and if you read the Pantheon website and especially the Pantheon difference then you can tell exactly what type of game they are trying to release. I just think if Pantheon fails then that is the end of my MMO playing days. It is the only one that even slightly interests me. I couldn't give a rats arse about whether the graphics are AAA or not. It doesn't matter. After a week or two of playing you soon forget about the graphics. But the gameplay has to last you for years and years. That is what makes a game not the graphics.
I've bought old games on GOG.com that were far better than most AAA titles being released today. Sure the graphics suck but it is the gameplay that keeps me coming back for more.
Worrying about the graphics, especially when the game hasn't even entered pre-alpha yet just seems silly. I'm sure the graphics will improve with user testing and I'm sure the gameplay elements will be fleshed out also with user testing. Literally no one outside a very small group of testers has tested this game yet. Let's give it a chance OK? You might not like it now but come back in a year and I'll tell you now it'll be a completely different experience.
Oh and for those complaining of Twitch stream quality. That is a problem with Twitch. The highest bit rate you can stream at on Twitch is 1080p at 30fps at 3500kbps. The vast majority of Twitch streamers who are not partnered with Twitch stream at 720p at 60fps at 2000kbps. This is so people with slow internet can still watch the stream. So don't take the quality of the Twitch stream as any indication of the actual graphics. Look at the screenshots on the website for that. That is where you can see the real quality of the graphics and I think they look pretty good.
It was lineage 2 that looked good enough to lure me in.
Pantheon looks decent given that is is done by a small team.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What does it take to do great animations?
A great animator.
No indie has had the smarts to hire someone who is fantastic at creating animations?
I don't buy it.
There are a dozen or more non-MMO indie games with absolutely beautiful animations that are extremely well polished.
One MMO example is Crowfall - everything about their art style and animations looks AAA from all of their videos and such.
Indie is not a free pass for poor quality. The indies that really take off and do well are always really high quality.
Unlike most modern games you would log in and then figure out what you were going to do or would get swept up on some sort of guild thing. It had its own stories pertaining to various areas as well as the people who inhabited the world.
But unlike those who say "game play is more important than graphics/art design" for me I need to be able to "sign into" the art design otherwise I will lose interest so quickly as to make it not worth the download.
Being a "visual person" that is extremely important.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So believe me, I know how important the look of the game is to people. Up until now they were building the foundation of the game, but if they choose to start showing people, I think its time to prioritize visuals.
At this point in the games development think more in terms of laggy input, broken game systems or constant crashes that keep you from testing. None of that was an issue.
Anyone remember the loot lag in WoW AFTER release? Bend down to loot....wait 5 minutes and then the character would finish and stand up.
For pre-alpha and even alpha the game is in a great state.
I could go on.
To me, the threshold issue - the one ring to rule them all - is whether this game is the spiritual successor to EQ, and from what I observed it is.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Also, having read the available design docs for both games, Pantheon and its devs stand out as having a far deeper understanding of how to both recreate and innovate beyond what we've experienced in old school games. I mean, its not even a comparison. SoL are about this "class-less" skill point system that sucked in every game it appeared. More important than those things, I just can't take people seriously when their response to those who disagree with them is "if you don't like our way, f*ck you." That kind of childish stuff won't get you anywhere and that is literally how they respond to those who disagree with them.
Yeah not interested.
You might reconsider:
From http://sagaoflucimia.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-pantheon-stream.450/#post-2793
It's possible that developers have forgotten that "the layman" isn't going to be able to see the big picture and is only going to concentrate on that one animation that makes the arm go up and down during attack.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I still get chills when I hear the original EQ theme song and see the original splash screen or the original UI (yes it's horrible but I still miss it). There's nothing memorable about L2 to me other than some nice jiggly thingies on the dark elf / high elf chicks.
So if a game was a MUD you would play it?Let's be serious of course they matter.The main core of being a 3D VIDEO game is graphics,without them it is not a 3D video game.
Graphics and animations need to be decent and respectable ,at least for myself i can't stand silliness like Korean games tend to go too far.
I have no doubt what so ever graphics will be solid and animations will solid,now if this was a KR developer i would be very skeptical.Too bad really KR games tend to have some nice games if only the developer did not think i was some 10 year old kid needing a super smash bros fix.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yes, they will matter but not at this point in the games development cycle.