If it's an mmorpg, then there's one of two desires it must fulfill. Relevance, or camaraderie.
Meaning, you either ARE somebody. Or your enjoyment is enhanced to satisfaction simply by teaming up for group activities. The endgame must satisfy these needs. You can be happy doing something else, but don't call it endgame, because you could just be doing that in a single player game.
Further, the endgame either makes you capable, or competitive (PvE or PvP). If what you are doing does not make you capable of doing the toughest dungeons, or conquering others in PvP, then it's not endgame.
"Endgame as a design problem that needs solving probably arose out of the sheer amount of new players World of Warcraft brought into the MMO genre."
No. I thought you would have played MMOs longer than this, but I guess this was back in the days when vnboards existed and gamers had high standards about where they wanted the genre to go, but end game has been a topic of discussion in all major releases for as long as I've been playing. Since DAoC at least.
If it's an mmorpg, then there's one of two desires it must fulfill. Relevance, or camaraderie.
Meaning, you either ARE somebody. Or your enjoyment is enhanced to satisfaction simply by teaming up for group activities. The endgame must satisfy these needs. You can be happy doing something else, but don't call it endgame, because you could just be doing that in a single player game.
Further, the endgame either makes you capable, or competitive (PvE or PvP). If what you are doing does not make you capable of doing the toughest dungeons, or conquering others in PvP, then it's not endgame.
"Endgame as a design problem that needs solving probably arose out of the sheer amount of new players World of Warcraft brought into the MMO genre."
No. I thought you would have played MMOs longer than this, but I guess this was back in the days when vnboards existed and gamers had high standards about where they wanted the genre to go, but end game has been a topic of discussion in all major releases for as long as I've been playing. Since DAoC at least.
well I have to be honest in the MMOs I have played when I got to end game my motovation to get their was neither of those things.
I just simply like the chain of interactive feedback. You put something in a game I want to try it but I want said activity to link to other activites which is why i tend to play mega huge games rather than a lot of smaller ones.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
"Frankly, I think the whole mentality of an MMO needing some sort of endgame is faulty from the word go."
So very true. Whatever happened to playing game as you level? All that 'skyrocket to max level' thing is not a given, it's just mainstream. And not a good one. And 'game starts at max level' is just stupid. No idea why people accept it so eagerly.
"Lord knows we’ve all had enough trips to “Almost Azeroth” to last a lifetime."
So much that sometimes I'd prefer to return to real Azeroth for a few than play something WoW-like.
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
I havent enjoyed a single mmorpg after hitting max level. I start a new character or go to another game.
I dont do PvP and if grinding raids over and over for pieces of gear (themepark mmos) is all i have at max level then im happy BDO doesnt have themepark raiding. Thats not endgame to me. Thats a cheap way to keep players playing/paying until new/real content releases. My personal opinion of course. At least on BDO when i dont have more levels to get i can focus more on the life/trade activities of the game.
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.
I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.
I find it interesting that after several articles of your basically spelling out the above, some people are still failing to get the gist of BDO. No matter how much they are told that BDO is not about end game, they still continue to regurgitate the same inaccurate assertions about end game this, end game that, end game is everything. It just goes to highlight the damage that WoW and the many clones borne from it, have caused to the MMORPG genre. Most people who do not like BDO game play, do so simply because they do not understand it. And the reason they don't understand it is because it doesn't feature the same old mechanics that have been regurgitated in the genre simply to attempt and emulate WoW's success.
If it doesn't feature a rush to end game the content locusts don't like it because they are accustomed to believe that the game begins at end game.
If it doesn't feature and "end game" that culminates with dungeons/raids and a +1 gear treadmill the dungeon crawlers are lost.
If it features a leveling curve longer than 3 days to "end game" for the PvP-centric crowd it is then considered an "Asian Grinder" not worth playing.
If it has a Cash Shop that offers items of convenience such as pets that pick up loot, or a costume that does not display the players name, it is considered P2W, totally ignoring the fact that the only real definiton of P2W is buying items from a Cash Shop that give a player a power advantage that is not available to a player in game. Items that allow a player the convenience for a pet to loot for them, or that allow a player to arrive at a supposed "end game" faster are not P2W, they are items of convenience. Only people who put importance to arriving at end game as fast as they can would ever consider those P2W, but that's never been what MMORPGs are about. MMORPGs are about the journey, not how fast a player can get to "end game."
And we can go on and on ...
Long story short, games like BDO are a breath of fresh that if allowed to prosper will change the stagnation that the MMORPG genre has been in for such a long time. It's become increasingly clear, however, that the much larger problem will be that of changing the culture of a large percentage of the MMORPG genre who has been conditioned that an MMORPG is not worthy unless it continues to churn out the same old tired content that has been plaguing the genre to date. BDO is change. It is a stop in the right direction. Let's just hope that it carves a path for many more like it to follow.
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.
A game that is a ton of fun until you reach the level cap, at which point it abruptly becomes boring, is probably a very good game. There are perhaps exceptions for games that put most of the content at the cap, but that's very rare; Guild Wars 1 is the only exception that comes to mind among MMORPGs.
The realistic alternatives to being fun until the cap is ceasing to be fun long before reaching the level cap, or worse yet, never being fun in the first place.
WOW always intended to constantly add more end game content, they just couldn't do it fast enough. By the time Molten Core opened, there was a power level to max in 2 weeks guide out.
I haven't played it but I just don't feel comfortable enough to paying to try it out. I got the impression that it is firstly well gender locked thats a fact, which is huge turn off for immersion, secondly the lack of customization. I'll stick to GW2 for now thank you.
End game became a problem when programmers abandoned the rest of the game, so that the only point of entire zones was not have to be in them any more so you could get to the fabled "end game" instead.
In contrast, EQ1 had early zones that you would repeatedly visit long past when you were of the "appropriate level". You cared about the bosses that roamed those lands. You cared about the bat wings and beetle eyes that newbies harvested in those lands. You cared about the economic trade available in those lands. You cared about the social trade (earning foreign racial language skill points) in the tunnel between those lands.
These days, however, the point is to level as quickly as possible so you don't have to see newbie zones ever again. It begs the question why entire continents were even created in the first place. Imagine if everyone started at "max level" and how boring so many games would immediately be, because they never created these lands with anything more exciting or complex than experience-point-generators.
In short, it’s exactly the kind of MMORPG we’ve been wanting for years.
Really, now you guys are speaking for us. I find BDO to be one of the most boring, repetitive game I ve played in a long time. Yes I ve tried it, and honestly the idea of killing mobs over and over again with this terrible combat makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
Average at best is this game. Are there worse MMOs , sure, but there are plenty more that are far better.
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.
I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.
bill my good friend. you must remember a majority of these people played World of Warcraft and it's multitude of clones and have no idea how an actual open world type MMO works. So they hit the level "cap" and then they freak out wondering where their raids are and what to do because that is literally all they know. Their ordered and queued arenas. their raids and dungeons. A majority of BDO's content seems foreign and strange to most of them.
Thing is there is "end game". Currently it's limited because the sieges aren't activated and there are some world bosses not in yet from what I understand, but there is end game.
World/ field bosses are open world "raids" that guilds and groups can do.
What I've noticed is that everyone expects "end game" to be farming an instance to get a piece of gear to do the next instance to get a piece of gear to do the next instance.
The difference between BDO and games like WoW are that end game isn't the point.
It's like saying, "EVE is a great game, it's got a lot of depth and emergent gameplay, but you know it just doesn't have any end game." No one says this, because everyone not living under a rock knows that that isn't the point of EVE.
However, there is end game type content in BDO for people who are looking for that sort of thing. They just need to keep in mind that the game is just released here and doesn't have all the content just yet, and that the "end game" takes place in the open world.
Eve is actually a semi-decent analogy for things, I think. In Eve you can mine and develop corporations and generally futz around, but in the end, it's all funnelling stuff to the PvP.
Of course, BDO has a lot more side tasks and such than Eve does, but it still all leads towards the same end. You can fish all day and craft all day and make nodes all day and all, but in the end, it's all building up power for your character and that power gets used in PvP at the end.
....or maybe you just keep fishing. But like DMKano said, you can do that in any game.
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.
I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.
Well thats one way to look at it, but its not how the devs designed the game. This is a PvP game, you are funneled towards the inevitable - open world PvP.
I mean you can choose to fish and never do anything else in many other games too but thats not the point of those games, nor intended gameplay.
You can buy a car and use it as additional seating and never drive it - hey if that's how you decide to use your car, more power to you. But thats not why cars are made.
BDO was not made as a trade or fishing game at all, it was designed as a PvP game from the start
PvP-centric players keep saying this but that's because they are looking at it from their perspective. Ask a PvE-centric player and they will give you a whole different perspective because as far as they're concerned, PvP is something to avoid at all cost.
What is it about PvP-centric players that gives them the opinion that their style of play is the only "end game" worthy activity to engage in? To a PvE player, that content is no different than the myriad of activites that are PvE related and carry as much significance to the PvE crowd as their glorified GvG node wars and castle sieges. PvE-centric players do not consider that "end game" content, no more than PvP-centric players do not consider the overwhelming activities that are PvE related and cover the first 45 levels of the game to be end game content.
What is it about PvP node wars and castle sieges that lead the PvP-centric to believe that those activities are any less repetitive than all of the rest of the PvE related activites to do in the game? This is not meant to bash the PvP-centric folk, this is just to put them on notice that their perspective of how they play their game, or the purpose for which they play their game, is not the only perspective or purpose by which to look at the game play in a game. Whereas the mentality of the PvP player is to play an MMORPG as if it were an FPS game, with activites that involve conquest and wars, the mentality of the PvE-centric player is "role play" their character and to play in the game as if they were actually living in that world.
There are enough activities in BDO to keep a PvE player content for a very long time provided they are in a good guild and playing with friends. The "role play" possibilities that are possible in BDO are only limited by the player's imagination itself, and has just as much longevity as any content provided to the PvP player at their so called "end game." Just because you, as a PvP-centric player, do not have the capability to see the value in a game from that perspective doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BDO is as much a PvE game as it is a PvP game. Either one can exist without the other. The BDO dev team has plans to release even more PvE content that will feature open world dungeons and many other PvE activities. PvP is just another of the many game play options that BDO offers to its player base.
PvP-centric players keep saying this but that's because they are looking at it from their perspective. Ask a PvE-centric player and they will give you a whole different perspective because as far as they're concerned, PvP is something to avoid at all cost.
What is it about PvP-centric players that gives them the opinion that their style of play is the only "end game" worthy activity to engage in? To a PvE player, that content is no different than the myriad of activites that are PvE related and carry as much significance to the PvE crowd as their glorified GvG node wars and castle sieges. PvE-centric players do not consider end game content no more than PvP-centric players consider the overwhelming activities that are PvE related and cover the first 45 levels of the game.
What is it about PvP node wars and castle sieges that lead the PvP-centric to believe that those activities are any less repetitive than all of the rest of the PvE related activites to do in the game? This is not meant to bash the PvP-centric folk, this is just to put them on notice that their perspective of how they play their game, or the purpose for which they play their game, is not the only perspective or purpose by which to look at the game play in a game. Whereas the mentality of the PvP player is to play an MMORPG as if it were an FPS game, with activites that involve conquest and wars, the mentality of the PvE-centric player is "role play" their character and to play in the game as if they were actually living in that world.
There are enough activities in BDO to keep a PvE player content for a very long time provided they are in a good guild and playing with friends. The "role play" possibilities that are possible in BDO are only limited by the player's imagination itself, and has just as much longevity as any content provided to the PvP player at their so called "end game." Just because you, as a PvP-centric player, do not have the capability to see the value in a game from that perspective doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BDO is as much a PvE game as it is a PvP game. Either one can exist without the other. The BDO dev team has plans to release even more PvE content that will feature open world dungeons and many other PvE activities. PvP is just another of the many game play options that BDO offers to its player base.
If I had to guess, it's probably the fact that all the high level zones, be you a PvE player or a PvP player, are PvP enabled?
Well, that and there isn't that much PvE content, including what the dev team plans to release. The thing about PvE content is it tends to get consummed and run out even for those who take their time eventually, and BDO's PvE content gets consummed faster than most other MMOs.
Of course it looks like there's a decent amount for PvEers NOW when the game is only two weeks old and when the developers have a whole bunch of backlog content yet to release for this version, but that backlog content won't last THAT long.
It seems like I hear this alot. Mostl new games that come out have no good endgame.... and end up suffering or failing. Seriously, What games out there have a good endgame?
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BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.
I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.
Well thats one way to look at it, but its not how the devs designed the game. This is a PvP game, you are funneled towards the inevitable - open world PvP.
I mean you can choose to fish and never do anything else in many other games too but thats not the point of those games, nor intended gameplay.
You can buy a car and use it as additional seating and never drive it - hey if that's how you decide to use your car, more power to you. But thats not why cars are made.
BDO was not made as a trade or fishing game at all, it was designed as a PvP game from the start
Yes but if you're going to talk about design and intent it's also not a mindless gankfest PVP game with meaningless scuffles over PVE grinding spots. The ultimate goal of its PVP is the weekly territorial control battles by guilds to claim areas and enhance their power and income... something that's not even implemented in our version yet.
If you rushed to endgame and are going around ganking you're also not doing the "point of the game."
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It seems like I hear this alot. Mostl new games that come out have no good endgame.... and end up suffering or failing. Seriously, What games out there have a good endgame?
In terms of PvE games, I don't recall hearing anyone complain about WoW, Rift, and Tera not having end games. Certainly there were complaints about other factors regarding them, but not a lack of end game. I'm sure there are more but I don't really pay that much attention to every MMO out there.
From my own personal experience, Granado Espada had a hell of an extensive end game to the point where it'd take players months to overcome some of the higher end raids and there were still raids a year+ old that were unfinished when I finally left that game. When I did leave, it wasn't due to a lack of end game so much as the fact that the game was too hardcore that it had become a 2nd job (and I couldn't stand the publisher or the community by that point either. It was a highly competitive game too where guilds were constantly battling each other over boss spawns and guild wars and the pressure got obscene at times). I can cite a few other MMOs that had a very extensive end game but I left them for other reasons, but most people never heard of them (Lunia, Elsword... well, kinda on that last one. Not sure why I or many others are still playing that one but whatever).
These games had raids at the end. Lots of them. Not just "do one raid to get you prepared for the harder one after it" but instead "You have 10 raids available to you right now all within your power, all of which drop different loot that you or your buddies can use and have different mechanics to them. Which one shall you be heading out to, today?"
That's just from the PvE side of things, since we're talking about PvE. If we're going to talk about BDO's sandbox features and what's end-game there... well, the best comparison would be SWG (which I have never experienced for myself) and Ultima Online, which I played for 11 years.
In Ultima Online, at least before Age of Shadows or perhaps before Power Scrolls From RAIDS (but yes, even after Trammel was introduced), "end game" consisted of... well, anything. The difference between it and BDO is that there was no real power gap between the players, I suppose, and eqiupment was also not permanent so crafting services were always in demand and people were constantly socializing with each other and trading goods with each other. Oh, and there was player to player trading. I mean, pretty much any long term sandbox aspect of BDO that I can think of gets absolutely obliterated by the lack of player to player trading. Sure, you can craft and fish and gather resources, but without trading, you can only really do it for yourself or slapping it onto the market for some extra cash. That's nothing compared to the vast networks and reputations and such that people would set up in UO as they personally traded goods from one to another (not just for crafting but wheeling and dealing in weapons, decorations, selling houses to each other, etc etc)
Now that I really think about it and compare UO to BDO, I suppose any attempts to even begin to reach UO's version of "sandbox endgame" kinda gets destroyed by the permanency of power in BDO (equipment that doesn't decay, huge gap in power by levels) and the lack of trading. In the end, all that crafting and node connecting and fishing you do is only powering up yourself, rather than leading to any bigger picture, and the only true way to contribute directly to the bigger picture (or at least, the illusion of it) is via PvP, unlike in UO where you could make a difference to everyone by just being a merchant, and where even the little guy had a fighting chance in PvP to make a difference rather than just become fodder if they didn't do everything they could to keep up with the power treadmill (at least before they introduced all those theme-park elements of character growth and itemization and permanent gear).
PvP-centric players keep saying this but that's because they are looking at it from their perspective. Ask a PvE-centric player and they will give you a whole different perspective because as far as they're concerned, PvP is something to avoid at all cost.
What is it about PvP-centric players that gives them the opinion that their style of play is the only "end game" worthy activity to engage in? To a PvE player, that content is no different than the myriad of activites that are PvE related and carry as much significance to the PvE crowd as their glorified GvG node wars and castle sieges. PvE-centric players do not consider end game content no more than PvP-centric players consider the overwhelming activities that are PvE related and cover the first 45 levels of the game.
What is it about PvP node wars and castle sieges that lead the PvP-centric to believe that those activities are any less repetitive than all of the rest of the PvE related activites to do in the game? This is not meant to bash the PvP-centric folk, this is just to put them on notice that their perspective of how they play their game, or the purpose for which they play their game, is not the only perspective or purpose by which to look at the game play in a game. Whereas the mentality of the PvP player is to play an MMORPG as if it were an FPS game, with activites that involve conquest and wars, the mentality of the PvE-centric player is "role play" their character and to play in the game as if they were actually living in that world.
There are enough activities in BDO to keep a PvE player content for a very long time provided they are in a good guild and playing with friends. The "role play" possibilities that are possible in BDO are only limited by the player's imagination itself, and has just as much longevity as any content provided to the PvP player at their so called "end game." Just because you, as a PvP-centric player, do not have the capability to see the value in a game from that perspective doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BDO is as much a PvE game as it is a PvP game. Either one can exist without the other. The BDO dev team has plans to release even more PvE content that will feature open world dungeons and many other PvE activities. PvP is just another of the many game play options that BDO offers to its player base.
If I had to guess, it's probably the fact that all the high level zones, be you a PvE player or a PvP player, are PvP enabled?
Well, that and there isn't that much PvE content, including what the dev team plans to release. The thing about PvE content is it tends to get consummed and run out even for those who take their time eventually, and BDO's PvE content gets consummed faster than most other MMOs.
Of course it looks like there's a decent amount for PvEers NOW when the game is only two weeks old and when the developers have a whole bunch of backlog content yet to release for this version, but that backlog content won't last THAT long.
Again, you have no idea of what you speak. There is an overwhelming amount of content that is PvE related when compared to the PvP content in BDO. The only difference being that the PvP content in BDO is only existent at the highest levels. That doesn't make it "end game' content. All that makes it is content that is only available at the highest levels. Whereas the PvE content is available from level one to the highest levels.
Regarding the PvE content being consumed, that is the difference between BDO and the rest of the previous MMORPGs on the market. BDO's PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs. There is no content like dungeons or raids to out level. The PvE content in BDO is just as significant and viable at level 50, as it is at level one. There are dailies to do, farms to build and expand, cargo transport empires to lord over, horse breeding conglomerates, boating, whaling, etc ad infinitum ... I mean, there are even fishing guilds being formed.
Some of you need to open up your minds and show some creativity and imagination. If you were to do that you would see that the PvE activities are endless and far exceed any PvP that can be had in BDO. That said, that is provided we all had a bit of creativity and imagination. The lack of those in players in and of themsevles, probably explains it all in a nutshell.
If I had to guess, it's probably the fact that all the high level zones, be you a PvE player or a PvP player, are PvP enabled?
Well, that and there isn't that much PvE content, including what the dev team plans to release. The thing about PvE content is it tends to get consummed and run out even for those who take their time eventually, and BDO's PvE content gets consummed faster than most other MMOs.
Of course it looks like there's a decent amount for PvEers NOW when the game is only two weeks old and when the developers have a whole bunch of backlog content yet to release for this version, but that backlog content won't last THAT long.
Again, you have no idea of what you speak. There is an overwhelming amount of content that is PvE related when compared to the PvP content in BDO. The only difference being that the PvP content in BDO is only existent at the highest levels. That doesn't make it "end game' content. All that makes it is content that is only available at the highest levels. Whereas the PvE content is available from level one to the highest levels.
Regarding the PvE content being consumed, that is the difference between BDO and the rest of the previous MMORPGs on the market. BDO's PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs. There is no content like dungeons or raids to out level. The PvE content in BDO is just as significant and viable at level 50, as it is at level one. There are dailies to do, farms to build and expand, cargo transport empires to lord over, horse breeding conglomerates, boating, whaling, etc ad infinitum ... I mean, there are even fishing guilds being formed.
Some of you need to open up your minds and show some creativity and imagination. If you were to do that you would see that the PvE activities are endless and far exceed any PvP that can be had in BDO. That said, that is provided we all had a bit of creativity and imagination. The lack of those in players in and themsevles, probably explains it all in a nutshell.
Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement. That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed. But what if you're wrong? What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't? What if your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now? What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit? What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again? What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes? What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?
And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people. Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming? As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.
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Meaning, you either ARE somebody. Or your enjoyment is enhanced to satisfaction simply by teaming up for group activities. The endgame must satisfy these needs. You can be happy doing something else, but don't call it endgame, because you could just be doing that in a single player game.
Further, the endgame either makes you capable, or competitive (PvE or PvP). If what you are doing does not make you capable of doing the toughest dungeons, or conquering others in PvP, then it's not endgame.
"Endgame as a design problem that needs solving probably arose out of the sheer amount of new players World of Warcraft brought into the MMO genre."
No. I thought you would have played MMOs longer than this, but I guess this was back in the days when vnboards existed and gamers had high standards about where they wanted the genre to go, but end game has been a topic of discussion in all major releases for as long as I've been playing. Since DAoC at least.
I just simply like the chain of interactive feedback. You put something in a game I want to try it but I want said activity to link to other activites which is why i tend to play mega huge games rather than a lot of smaller ones.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So very true. Whatever happened to playing game as you level? All that 'skyrocket to max level' thing is not a given, it's just mainstream. And not a good one. And 'game starts at max level' is just stupid. No idea why people accept it so eagerly.
"Lord knows we’ve all had enough trips to “Almost Azeroth” to last a lifetime."
So much that sometimes I'd prefer to return to real Azeroth for a few than play something WoW-like.
I dont do PvP and if grinding raids over and over for pieces of gear (themepark mmos) is all i have at max level then im happy BDO doesnt have themepark raiding. Thats not endgame to me. Thats a cheap way to keep players playing/paying until new/real content releases. My personal opinion of course. At least on BDO when i dont have more levels to get i can focus more on the life/trade activities of the game.
I find it interesting that after several articles of your basically spelling out the above, some people are still failing to get the gist of BDO. No matter how much they are told that BDO is not about end game, they still continue to regurgitate the same inaccurate assertions about end game this, end game that, end game is everything. It just goes to highlight the damage that WoW and the many clones borne from it, have caused to the MMORPG genre. Most people who do not like BDO game play, do so simply because they do not understand it. And the reason they don't understand it is because it doesn't feature the same old mechanics that have been regurgitated in the genre simply to attempt and emulate WoW's success.
If it doesn't feature a rush to end game the content locusts don't like it because they are accustomed to believe that the game begins at end game.
If it doesn't feature and "end game" that culminates with dungeons/raids and a +1 gear treadmill the dungeon crawlers are lost.
If it features a leveling curve longer than 3 days to "end game" for the PvP-centric crowd it is then considered an "Asian Grinder" not worth playing.
If it has a Cash Shop that offers items of convenience such as pets that pick up loot, or a costume that does not display the players name, it is considered P2W, totally ignoring the fact that the only real definiton of P2W is buying items from a Cash Shop that give a player a power advantage that is not available to a player in game. Items that allow a player the convenience for a pet to loot for them, or that allow a player to arrive at a supposed "end game" faster are not P2W, they are items of convenience. Only people who put importance to arriving at end game as fast as they can would ever consider those P2W, but that's never been what MMORPGs are about. MMORPGs are about the journey, not how fast a player can get to "end game."
And we can go on and on ...
Long story short, games like BDO are a breath of fresh that if allowed to prosper will change the stagnation that the MMORPG genre has been in for such a long time. It's become increasingly clear, however, that the much larger problem will be that of changing the culture of a large percentage of the MMORPG genre who has been conditioned that an MMORPG is not worthy unless it continues to churn out the same old tired content that has been plaguing the genre to date. BDO is change. It is a stop in the right direction. Let's just hope that it carves a path for many more like it to follow.
The realistic alternatives to being fun until the cap is ceasing to be fun long before reaching the level cap, or worse yet, never being fun in the first place.
In contrast, EQ1 had early zones that you would repeatedly visit long past when you were of the "appropriate level". You cared about the bosses that roamed those lands. You cared about the bat wings and beetle eyes that newbies harvested in those lands. You cared about the economic trade available in those lands. You cared about the social trade (earning foreign racial language skill points) in the tunnel between those lands.
These days, however, the point is to level as quickly as possible so you don't have to see newbie zones ever again. It begs the question why entire continents were even created in the first place. Imagine if everyone started at "max level" and how boring so many games would immediately be, because they never created these lands with anything more exciting or complex than experience-point-generators.
Really, now you guys are speaking for us. I find BDO to be one of the most boring, repetitive game I ve played in a long time. Yes I ve tried it, and honestly the idea of killing mobs over and over again with this terrible combat makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
Average at best is this game. Are there worse MMOs , sure, but there are plenty more that are far better.
That's what got me. I feel like I'm playing Lineage 3.
Thing is there is "end game". Currently it's limited because the sieges aren't activated and there are some world bosses not in yet from what I understand, but there is end game.
World/ field bosses are open world "raids" that guilds and groups can do.
What I've noticed is that everyone expects "end game" to be farming an instance to get a piece of gear to do the next instance to get a piece of gear to do the next instance.
The difference between BDO and games like WoW are that end game isn't the point.
It's like saying, "EVE is a great game, it's got a lot of depth and emergent gameplay, but you know it just doesn't have any end game." No one says this, because everyone not living under a rock knows that that isn't the point of EVE.
However, there is end game type content in BDO for people who are looking for that sort of thing. They just need to keep in mind that the game is just released here and doesn't have all the content just yet, and that the "end game" takes place in the open world.
Of course, BDO has a lot more side tasks and such than Eve does, but it still all leads towards the same end. You can fish all day and craft all day and make nodes all day and all, but in the end, it's all building up power for your character and that power gets used in PvP at the end.
....or maybe you just keep fishing. But like DMKano said, you can do that in any game.
PvP-centric players keep saying this but that's because they are looking at it from their perspective. Ask a PvE-centric player and they will give you a whole different perspective because as far as they're concerned, PvP is something to avoid at all cost.
What is it about PvP-centric players that gives them the opinion that their style of play is the only "end game" worthy activity to engage in? To a PvE player, that content is no different than the myriad of activites that are PvE related and carry as much significance to the PvE crowd as their glorified GvG node wars and castle sieges. PvE-centric players do not consider that "end game" content, no more than PvP-centric players do not consider the overwhelming activities that are PvE related and cover the first 45 levels of the game to be end game content.
What is it about PvP node wars and castle sieges that lead the PvP-centric to believe that those activities are any less repetitive than all of the rest of the PvE related activites to do in the game? This is not meant to bash the PvP-centric folk, this is just to put them on notice that their perspective of how they play their game, or the purpose for which they play their game, is not the only perspective or purpose by which to look at the game play in a game. Whereas the mentality of the PvP player is to play an MMORPG as if it were an FPS game, with activites that involve conquest and wars, the mentality of the PvE-centric player is "role play" their character and to play in the game as if they were actually living in that world.
There are enough activities in BDO to keep a PvE player content for a very long time provided they are in a good guild and playing with friends. The "role play" possibilities that are possible in BDO are only limited by the player's imagination itself, and has just as much longevity as any content provided to the PvP player at their so called "end game." Just because you, as a PvP-centric player, do not have the capability to see the value in a game from that perspective doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BDO is as much a PvE game as it is a PvP game. Either one can exist without the other. The BDO dev team has plans to release even more PvE content that will feature open world dungeons and many other PvE activities. PvP is just another of the many game play options that BDO offers to its player base.
Well, that and there isn't that much PvE content, including what the dev team plans to release. The thing about PvE content is it tends to get consummed and run out even for those who take their time eventually, and BDO's PvE content gets consummed faster than most other MMOs.
Of course it looks like there's a decent amount for PvEers NOW when the game is only two weeks old and when the developers have a whole bunch of backlog content yet to release for this version, but that backlog content won't last THAT long.
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If you rushed to endgame and are going around ganking you're also not doing the "point of the game."
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From my own personal experience, Granado Espada had a hell of an extensive end game to the point where it'd take players months to overcome some of the higher end raids and there were still raids a year+ old that were unfinished when I finally left that game. When I did leave, it wasn't due to a lack of end game so much as the fact that the game was too hardcore that it had become a 2nd job (and I couldn't stand the publisher or the community by that point either. It was a highly competitive game too where guilds were constantly battling each other over boss spawns and guild wars and the pressure got obscene at times). I can cite a few other MMOs that had a very extensive end game but I left them for other reasons, but most people never heard of them (Lunia, Elsword... well, kinda on that last one. Not sure why I or many others are still playing that one but whatever).
These games had raids at the end. Lots of them. Not just "do one raid to get you prepared for the harder one after it" but instead "You have 10 raids available to you right now all within your power, all of which drop different loot that you or your buddies can use and have different mechanics to them. Which one shall you be heading out to, today?"
That's just from the PvE side of things, since we're talking about PvE. If we're going to talk about BDO's sandbox features and what's end-game there... well, the best comparison would be SWG (which I have never experienced for myself) and Ultima Online, which I played for 11 years.
In Ultima Online, at least before Age of Shadows or perhaps before Power Scrolls From RAIDS (but yes, even after Trammel was introduced), "end game" consisted of... well, anything. The difference between it and BDO is that there was no real power gap between the players, I suppose, and eqiupment was also not permanent so crafting services were always in demand and people were constantly socializing with each other and trading goods with each other. Oh, and there was player to player trading. I mean, pretty much any long term sandbox aspect of BDO that I can think of gets absolutely obliterated by the lack of player to player trading. Sure, you can craft and fish and gather resources, but without trading, you can only really do it for yourself or slapping it onto the market for some extra cash. That's nothing compared to the vast networks and reputations and such that people would set up in UO as they personally traded goods from one to another (not just for crafting but wheeling and dealing in weapons, decorations, selling houses to each other, etc etc)
Now that I really think about it and compare UO to BDO, I suppose any attempts to even begin to reach UO's version of "sandbox endgame" kinda gets destroyed by the permanency of power in BDO (equipment that doesn't decay, huge gap in power by levels) and the lack of trading. In the end, all that crafting and node connecting and fishing you do is only powering up yourself, rather than leading to any bigger picture, and the only true way to contribute directly to the bigger picture (or at least, the illusion of it) is via PvP, unlike in UO where you could make a difference to everyone by just being a merchant, and where even the little guy had a fighting chance in PvP to make a difference rather than just become fodder if they didn't do everything they could to keep up with the power treadmill (at least before they introduced all those theme-park elements of character growth and itemization and permanent gear).
Again, you have no idea of what you speak. There is an overwhelming amount of content that is PvE related when compared to the PvP content in BDO. The only difference being that the PvP content in BDO is only existent at the highest levels. That doesn't make it "end game' content. All that makes it is content that is only available at the highest levels. Whereas the PvE content is available from level one to the highest levels.
Regarding the PvE content being consumed, that is the difference between BDO and the rest of the previous MMORPGs on the market. BDO's PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs. There is no content like dungeons or raids to out level. The PvE content in BDO is just as significant and viable at level 50, as it is at level one. There are dailies to do, farms to build and expand, cargo transport empires to lord over, horse breeding conglomerates, boating, whaling, etc ad infinitum ... I mean, there are even fishing guilds being formed.
Some of you need to open up your minds and show some creativity and imagination. If you were to do that you would see that the PvE activities are endless and far exceed any PvP that can be had in BDO. That said, that is provided we all had a bit of creativity and imagination. The lack of those in players in and of themsevles, probably explains it all in a nutshell.
Guilds also have summoning scrolls they can use.
There is no instanced end game content.
The desert, which we should get "very soon", has a massive dragon in it for guilds to fight.
Quit saying that there is no end game content in BDO, that is wrong. There is no "safe pvp free" end game content.
And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people. Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming? As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.