Well, one way to virutally guarantee people won't stick around is to not have any endgame...
Any game with an "end game" will likely make me "not" stick around.
Including a variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood is probably the better idea.
One of the reason I still play Skyrim regularly. And even though I finished Dragon's Dogma I still go back to Bitter Black Isle for dungeon running and epic battles.
"A variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood" IS usually the endgame in most MMOs. That's the idea, anyway, and it is for me in BnS.
With Black Desert, they are all non-combat-oriented and they stuck them in the beginning/middle of the game instead of the end.
That's all well and good but what happens when you finish with them or get bored with them? In traditional MMOs, they release an expansion or raise the level cap.
I don't think there are any plans to expand on all the things people are enjoying in the future, beyond giving you more nodes to connect and more fishing spots.
There are plans to put out an open world dungeon and a boss in the desert, and the seiges and node wars are coming, but most people really enjoying the game don't seem like they'll be very interested in those things.
I totally get why people are having fun right now and they're not at level cap in the game. It's been out for 2 weeks and there seems like an endless amount of non-combat stuff to occupy yourself with. In most MMOs, the first 2 weeks is about slogging through quest-hubs to get to level cap.
I'm just very skeptical it's going to remain that way for too long.
I don't really think that's the case as far as "end games". Most games seem to be pve raiding for the sake of gettting better gear to do more raiding.
pvp doesn't have to be an "end game" activity. In Lineage 2 people were sieging castles in D and C grade gear when the game instituted sieges and people just leveled in order to just be stronger.
Perhaps there is a pve solution in that there could be actual pve enemy factions that players would have to fight. PvE factions that would attack their castles or take their areas.
As far as the Desert area in Black Desert and the expansions I think a lot of people are excited for that. I know I am. Especially the open dungeons.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.
I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"
I am level 50 and I am definitely having a blast. I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface yet.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
"A variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood" IS usually the endgame in most MMOs. That's the idea, anyway, and it is for me in BnS.
With Black Desert, they are all non-combat-oriented and they stuck them in the beginning/middle of the game instead of the end.
That's all well and good but what happens when you finish with them or get bored with them? In traditional MMOs, they release an expansion or raise the level cap.
I don't think there are any plans to expand on all the things people are enjoying in the future, beyond giving you more nodes to connect and more fishing spots.
There are plans to put out an open world dungeon and a boss in the desert, and the seiges and node wars are coming, but most people really enjoying the game don't seem like they'll be very interested in those things.
I totally get why people are having fun right now and they're not at level cap in the game. It's been out for 2 weeks and there seems like an endless amount of non-combat stuff to occupy yourself with. In most MMOs, the first 2 weeks is about slogging through quest-hubs to get to level cap.
I'm just very skeptical it's going to remain that way for too long.
This is incorrect. Your notions about what most people are doing in the game are not such. crafters don't exist in a vacuum in BDO. You can be combat focused and still engage in crafting. you can keep crafting to a minimum, or just buy nodes and ham resources to sell to fund gear.
There are so many people who hate the garbage wow-dailies end game. if nothing else, in a game like BDO due to the nature of not having fast travel, to the nature of weight and, to the nature of world pvp, xp loss on death. All these things change the dynamics, that the world itself doesn't just allow you to go out and do x daily. every time you leave a town you're potentially dead. so grinding is risky. going out alone is risky. maintaining durability, taking care of your workers and so on are legit concerns. And there are plans to expand on these things. two days ago they put in a new pet breeding system, for example.
your second last paragraphs... There is no level cap. there is no end to it. many people are not rushing though the game due to this reason. it's understood inside the game that if you try to get to max its like trying to induce burnout on yourself. it doesn't matter.
you are going to get wrecked by people who play more than you. thats the unfair nature of the sandbox elements that are in this game. its nor equalized gear or standardization. so there is no end game. That's what you need to understand. You can't apply themepark MMO logic on it.
I personally think the game has a lot to offer- as long as you like to PVP. I would 100% be playing it right now if I didn't feel like Daum is insideously ripping people off with the cash shop (your example of adding pet breeding is unfortunately laughable- it just makes pets virtually RNG boxes, and expensive ones at that).
Bill Murphy isn't 45 yet. He and a LOT of people are almost stalling so they DON'T get to level cap, because they know the game is going to change.
The part he's playing is not at all endless. He will get to level cap eventually, he will connect all the nodes, etc. That's my point.
What happens then? I already read a post in the BDO forum today of someone quitting because of getting ganked over and over and losing more progress than they were gaining. How are all the crafters/proud boat-makers etc going to feel when they get to this part of the game?
If KR or RU is any indication, they will leave the game, and for them it will concretely "end".
What's interesting to me is how well-received the beginning/middle of BDO is. I wonder how an MMO would go with a focus on non-combat activities like those available in the game, but without the inevitable pvp focus of endgame that BDO has. I think it might do really well.
It's a shame this game is forced PvP after 45 - had there been an option to never have to deal with unwanted PvP I'd be playing this instead of BnS...oh well. I really wonder why they didn't set up a GvG only server and adjust the Karma system to not suck for people who like to PvP on the open PvP servers.
This. I fail to understand why many MMOs coming out are forcing people to PvP at higher levels.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Since reaching level 50 i only log in for daily missions and collecting loyality reward. There are no other things worth playing. Sadly i payed 100 for the biggest preorder pack.
Since reaching level 50 i only log in for daily missions and collecting loyality reward. There are no other things worth playing. Sadly i payed 100 for the biggest preorder pack.
Here's an honest question, no sarcasm or adversarialism intended. When you say 'no other things worth playing", do you mean "no other things that will advance your character?" or do you mean "No other things enjoyable?" (or both, but it's whether or not the first case exists that's the most important since the 2nd is just a matter of personal preference)
Example: Is Horse Breeding not "worth playing" to you because you either already have the strongest horse or because getting a stronger horse won't benefit you very much for the cost/RNG involved, or is Horse Breeding not "worth playing" to you because you find horse breeding to be a stupid/lame/boring activity? (again,"Both" is an option)
(same goes for farming and node-linking and crafting, etc)
I personally think the game has a lot to offer- as long as you like to PVP. I would 100% be playing it right now if I didn't feel like Daum is insideously ripping people off with the cash shop (your example of adding pet breeding is unfortunately laughable- it just makes pets virtually RNG boxes, and expensive ones at that).
Bill Murphy isn't 45 yet. He and a LOT of people are almost stalling so they DON'T get to level cap, because they know the game is going to change.
The part he's playing is not at all endless. He will get to level cap eventually, he will connect all the nodes, etc. That's my point.
What happens then? I already read a post in the BDO forum today of someone quitting because of getting ganked over and over and losing more progress than they were gaining. How are all the crafters/proud boat-makers etc going to feel when they get to this part of the game?
If KR or RU is any indication, they will leave the game, and for them it will concretely "end".
What's interesting to me is how well-received the beginning/middle of BDO is. I wonder how an MMO would go with a focus on non-combat activities like those available in the game, but without the inevitable pvp focus of endgame that BDO has. I think it might do really well.
You seem really confused and misinformed about the game. The entire point of BDO is to circumvent the boring end game, of feeling apathetic of running dungeons over and and over and having a static world where death doesn't matter. That's why all these MMORPGs are boring. You're not engaged or immersed because you pull out a mount of your backpack, death is whatever and there is no sense there is consequences to your actions.
So when the moment to moment gameplay actually ignites a sense- A feeling of that the game world matters, and you feel you have something to lose when dying, you really, really, really don't want to die.
When I play Blade and Soul, I couldn't give less of a ****. I really couldn't. I think the game has wonderful combat, character creation and aesthetic, but the game is not gripping at all. It doesn't matter. I'm not feeling anything when I play that game. Or WoW. Or SWTOR. Or any other themepark game.
You seem really confused and misinformed about the game. The entire point of BDO is to circumvent the boring end game, of feeling apathetic of running dungeons over and and over and having a static world where death doesn't matter. That's why all these MMORPGs are boring. You're not engaged or immersed because you pull out a mount of your backpack, death is whatever and there is no sense there is consequences to your actions.
So when the moment to moment gameplay actually ignites a sense- A feeling of that the game world matters, and you feel you have something to lose when dying, you really, really, really don't want to die.
From reading the various posts of lots of people and Bill's article, I'm under the impression that for most people in this honeymoon period, they haven't even gotten to the point that you are talking about (assuming you mean the open-world PvP of BDO when you say "moment to moment gameplay" where you "have something to lose when dying").
Either that or you're talking about the exp death penalty ("Both" is an option, too), which also honestly doesn't seem to be what most of the other people enamoured with this game at this early point in its life are thinking about, either.
They all seem to be enjoying the node connecting, horse breeding, and farming right now, which has nothing to do directly with the type of gameplay you seem to be talking about (which doesn't start until level 45, assuming I'm not misinterpreting you).
Of course, if you change your first sentence "You seem really confused and misinformed about the game" to "THEY seem really confused and misinformed about the game", your post could possibly be 100% spot on, albeit off the topic of what holdenhamlet was talking about. (Holdenhamlet was asking "What if they made a game that was primarily the horse breeding, farming, and node connecting, since that's what's so many people love?" ....a good answer to that question would be "Farmville. And people loved it. But now in 3D and with PvE!", really)
Now I am not trying to be facetious, but I am almost worried that this will turn into another ArcheAge, where everything was great, everything was new, then cap. And if you weren't into GvG, the PvE side of things were sorely lacking (I started out of the NA beta, played just short of the 55 cap release).. and while I get that there is a lot to do on the surface, the inevitable imbalance might end up turning GvG into a huge mess.
Let's not forget that the general atmosphere of PVP in MMOs won't work over like L2 with its endless, massive PVP where stories were practically talked about and still are over whatever this is these days.
In any case, honestly, I am really am curious to know if BDO just might end up being another AA with prettier graphics before I dive in, as I am the type that goes all-in when I start a new game.
Now I am not trying to be facetious, but I am almost worried that this will turn into another ArcheAge, where everything was great, everything was new, then cap.
Normally I hate how my MMORPGs I play are always months to a year or more behind their original Asian counterparts. However, the nice thing about it is it can help a lot with gauging what a game is actually like in the longer term.
In this case, why "almost worry" when something is pretty much a certainty? To answer your curiosity, yep, "then cap" is pretty much it (though in BDO's case it's a soft cap)
I mean, heck, as pointed out by another poster, if level 45 were really not so scary, you wouldn't see all these people practically stalling doing their best to NOT reach it on purpose. Deep down, they KNOW what's coming... (and again, you can't put it off forever, guys...)
I personally think the game has a lot to offer- as long as you like to PVP. I would 100% be playing it right now if I didn't feel like Daum is insideously ripping people off with the cash shop (your example of adding pet breeding is unfortunately laughable- it just makes pets virtually RNG boxes, and expensive ones at that).
Bill Murphy isn't 45 yet. He and a LOT of people are almost stalling so they DON'T get to level cap, because they know the game is going to change.
The part he's playing is not at all endless. He will get to level cap eventually, he will connect all the nodes, etc. That's my point.
What happens then? I already read a post in the BDO forum today of someone quitting because of getting ganked over and over and losing more progress than they were gaining. How are all the crafters/proud boat-makers etc going to feel when they get to this part of the game?
If KR or RU is any indication, they will leave the game, and for them it will concretely "end".
What's interesting to me is how well-received the beginning/middle of BDO is. I wonder how an MMO would go with a focus on non-combat activities like those available in the game, but without the inevitable pvp focus of endgame that BDO has. I think it might do really well.
You seem really confused and misinformed about the game. The entire point of BDO is to circumvent the boring end game, of feeling apathetic of running dungeons over and and over and having a static world where death doesn't matter. That's why all these MMORPGs are boring. You're not engaged or immersed because you pull out a mount of your backpack, death is whatever and there is no sense there is consequences to your actions.
So when the moment to moment gameplay actually ignites a sense- A feeling of that the game world matters, and you feel you have something to lose when dying, you really, really, really don't want to die.
When I play Blade and Soul, I couldn't give less of a ****. I really couldn't. I think the game has wonderful combat, character creation and aesthetic, but the game is not gripping at all. It doesn't matter. I'm not feeling anything when I play that game. Or WoW. Or SWTOR. Or any other themepark game.
It sounds terrific in the abstract. People, including Bill Murphy in the article and yourself, have been waxing poetic at how revolutionary the game is.
I'm talking about the concrete. What is going to happen when someone that really enjoys crafting and whatnot (most people I read about) runs out of crafting stuff to do and they go to grind some xp around level 50 and get ganked to the point where they can't progress anymore? Where if they try to fight back and assuming they aren't grossly outgeared/outleveled/outmanned and manage to kill the guy, the guy can just raise back up using Ellon's tears and cause they guy getting ganked to suffer severe karma penalties if he doesn't relinquish the grinding spot.
Yeah, Death matters. Unless you have buy a crap load of Ellon's Tears from the cash shop...then it means even less than BnS because you don't even have to run back.
As for death not mattering in BnS, sure the PVE is lightweight, but it serves as a nice counterbalance to the intense pvp. Death matters in PVP because that's how you lose.
Listen, bottomline, it's all well and good to say themeparks suck- but what are you replacing the dungeons and raids with?
In BDO, it's PVP. I personally like PVP and would enjoy it I'm sure in BDO if it was balanced (it's not- range has huge advantages) and not p2w (again, it's not, either Ellon's tears/treant suit now or straight up buying silver with money later on through cash shop sales in the marketplace "after the launch phase" which is coming soon btw).
If you don't like PVP, which a lot of people don't seem to since they're not at all in any rush to access that part of the game, I think it's perfectly reasonable to wonder how they're going to react when they get to that part of the game.
You still haven't answered what you think is going to happen with these players. Do you think they're going to enjoy level cap? Do you think they will stay with the game?
Don't go off on a 5 paragraph tangent about how the game is breaking the mold and boldly thwarting stale MMO archetypes.
This. I fail to understand why many MMOs coming out are forcing people to PvP at higher levels.
No other ideas.
The holy grail is player retention. But no one's come up with anything really revolutionary in that department since...'02 maybe? Raid, PVP, post-cap skills/gear development.
Is there a fourth option?
::sandbox:: I guess, vast and varied. Gotta collect em all, gotta build em all, gotta have all the pets or all the peasants, explore every corner.
Too bad we discarded roleplay. It was a viable path, at least for some.
Hell yeah, Bill! I've been taking my sweet time getting there. I'm constantly finding myself distracted by the numerous other things to do. Sometimes I just take the time to explore the stunning world the devs have created.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Let's face it, having pvp as the 'end game' is the cheapest option developers could go for. The lack of pretty standard mmo alternatives makes this game different.... Different as in they haven't bothered spending development funds on the end game.
Comments
pvp doesn't have to be an "end game" activity. In Lineage 2 people were sieging castles in D and C grade gear when the game instituted sieges and people just leveled in order to just be stronger.
Perhaps there is a pve solution in that there could be actual pve enemy factions that players would have to fight. PvE factions that would attack their castles or take their areas.
As far as the Desert area in Black Desert and the expansions I think a lot of people are excited for that. I know I am. Especially the open dungeons.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am level 50 and I am definitely having a blast. I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface yet.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Oh and those trying to portray pvp as the end game, there are A LOT better pvp games out there which immediately deflates your arguments.
Bill Murphy isn't 45 yet. He and a LOT of people are almost stalling so they DON'T get to level cap, because they know the game is going to change.
The part he's playing is not at all endless. He will get to level cap eventually, he will connect all the nodes, etc. That's my point.
What happens then? I already read a post in the BDO forum today of someone quitting because of getting ganked over and over and losing more progress than they were gaining. How are all the crafters/proud boat-makers etc going to feel when they get to this part of the game?
If KR or RU is any indication, they will leave the game, and for them it will concretely "end".
What's interesting to me is how well-received the beginning/middle of BDO is. I wonder how an MMO would go with a focus on non-combat activities like those available in the game, but without the inevitable pvp focus of endgame that BDO has. I think it might do really well.
This. I fail to understand why many MMOs coming out are forcing people to PvP at higher levels.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Example: Is Horse Breeding not "worth playing" to you because you either already have the strongest horse or because getting a stronger horse won't benefit you very much for the cost/RNG involved, or is Horse Breeding not "worth playing" to you because you find horse breeding to be a stupid/lame/boring activity? (again,"Both" is an option)
(same goes for farming and node-linking and crafting, etc)
So when the moment to moment gameplay actually ignites a sense- A feeling of that the game world matters, and you feel you have something to lose when dying, you really, really, really don't want to die.
When I play Blade and Soul, I couldn't give less of a ****. I really couldn't. I think the game has wonderful combat, character creation and aesthetic, but the game is not gripping at all. It doesn't matter. I'm not feeling anything when I play that game. Or WoW. Or SWTOR. Or any other themepark game.
Either that or you're talking about the exp death penalty ("Both" is an option, too), which also honestly doesn't seem to be what most of the other people enamoured with this game at this early point in its life are thinking about, either.
They all seem to be enjoying the node connecting, horse breeding, and farming right now, which has nothing to do directly with the type of gameplay you seem to be talking about (which doesn't start until level 45, assuming I'm not misinterpreting you).
Of course, if you change your first sentence "You seem really confused and misinformed about the game" to "THEY seem really confused and misinformed about the game", your post could possibly be 100% spot on, albeit off the topic of what holdenhamlet was talking about. (Holdenhamlet was asking "What if they made a game that was primarily the horse breeding, farming, and node connecting, since that's what's so many people love?" ....a good answer to that question would be "Farmville. And people loved it. But now in 3D and with PvE!", really)
Let's not forget that the general atmosphere of PVP in MMOs won't work over like L2 with its endless, massive PVP where stories were practically talked about and still are over whatever this is these days.
In any case, honestly, I am really am curious to know if BDO just might end up being another AA with prettier graphics before I dive in, as I am the type that goes all-in when I start a new game.
In this case, why "almost worry" when something is pretty much a certainty? To answer your curiosity, yep, "then cap" is pretty much it (though in BDO's case it's a soft cap)
I mean, heck, as pointed out by another poster, if level 45 were really not so scary, you wouldn't see all these people practically stalling doing their best to NOT reach it on purpose. Deep down, they KNOW what's coming... (and again, you can't put it off forever, guys...)
I'm talking about the concrete. What is going to happen when someone that really enjoys crafting and whatnot (most people I read about) runs out of crafting stuff to do and they go to grind some xp around level 50 and get ganked to the point where they can't progress anymore? Where if they try to fight back and assuming they aren't grossly outgeared/outleveled/outmanned and manage to kill the guy, the guy can just raise back up using Ellon's tears and cause they guy getting ganked to suffer severe karma penalties if he doesn't relinquish the grinding spot.
Yeah, Death matters. Unless you have buy a crap load of Ellon's Tears from the cash shop...then it means even less than BnS because you don't even have to run back.
As for death not mattering in BnS, sure the PVE is lightweight, but it serves as a nice counterbalance to the intense pvp. Death matters in PVP because that's how you lose.
Listen, bottomline, it's all well and good to say themeparks suck- but what are you replacing the dungeons and raids with?
In BDO, it's PVP. I personally like PVP and would enjoy it I'm sure in BDO if it was balanced (it's not- range has huge advantages) and not p2w (again, it's not, either Ellon's tears/treant suit now or straight up buying silver with money later on through cash shop sales in the marketplace "after the launch phase" which is coming soon btw).
If you don't like PVP, which a lot of people don't seem to since they're not at all in any rush to access that part of the game, I think it's perfectly reasonable to wonder how they're going to react when they get to that part of the game.
You still haven't answered what you think is going to happen with these players. Do you think they're going to enjoy level cap? Do you think they will stay with the game?
Don't go off on a 5 paragraph tangent about how the game is breaking the mold and boldly thwarting stale MMO archetypes.
The holy grail is player retention. But no one's come up with anything really revolutionary in that department since...'02 maybe? Raid, PVP, post-cap skills/gear development.
Is there a fourth option?
::sandbox:: I guess, vast and varied. Gotta collect em all, gotta build em all, gotta have all the pets or all the peasants, explore every corner.
Too bad we discarded roleplay. It was a viable path, at least for some.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Different as in they haven't bothered spending development funds on the end game.