Lineage 2 Classic: What went wrong?

Mikeha · March 2016

The forums are full of people complaining saying L2 Classic is dying and people are quitting.

To the people that play I want to hear your thoughts.

Is it really over already?

People Are Quitting

https://4gameforum.com/threads/560182/

Gitmix · March 2016

I'm one of the many who quit. People have different reasons for leaving. For me the main reason was that Innova didn't enforce their own rules with regards to account sharing.
Their EULA says no account sharing yet to my knowledge they haven't banned a single person for it.
2 months in, the top account sharing clans already had lvl 60+ toons while all the legit players were barely hitting 40.
Also as always with L2 it's filled with RMT spammers and I've just about had it with that nonsense.
Finally many people had issues with certain game mechanics that had nothing to do with vanilla L2 and that made the game a lot more griefer friendly than it used to be.

The server isn't dead though but the population keeps on dropping. Right now it's at around 1500 during EU prime time. When you factor in all the afk shops and all the people running 2+ accounts I'd say that's around 750 players online, at best.

Darksworm · March 2016

Stuns last longer than their skills cooldown.
Stuns can be reapplied to a target who is already stunned.
Classes have multiple stuns even though the land rate is extremely high with just one.
Land rate on root, fear and other instant fight winning skills that cast in less than a second is too high.
Without surrender to element, and because gloom is still in the game, the necromancer has a clear advantage in damage, health and utility over any other nuker.
Resist unholy, water, wind, fire etc are not in the game giving nukers more of an advantage.
Mystics can add con and remove strength, but fighters cannot add men and remove int.
Dyes can add too many stats leading to casters with +15 wit.
Non magic damage dealers use too much mana for physical skills.
Assassins miss from flank/rear when nukers and archers can fire at 900 range and hit.
Lethal strikes are not in the game allowing an assassin no damage potential against a lot of heavily armored enemies even though they sacrifice range and survivability.
Backstab deals the same rear damage as deadly blow when it should be ignoring a portion of the enemy's armor resulting in more damage.
Gladiators, tyrants and archers skills crit too frequently, and with no chance of missing.
Evasion is worthless until very high levels as most damage taken is from skills.
Real money trading is very obvious and seems to be being ignored or not punished severely enough.
The economy is being controlled by real money traders and bots.
Because the dexterity stat does not add or remove speed when modified, it is being abused.
The current exp curve is absurd and demoralizing, even with the 35% event. This kind of grind can only be justified by a massive server population, which is no longer the case.

In Classic L2 (i.e. 2006 and earlier), Stuns had a high land rate. This is why so many people played Archers. Stun for the win.

Stuns worked like that back then, and many classes had multiple stuns back then.

Land Rate on Root/Fear, etc. was high up until NCSoft nerfed them and introduced more buffs in the game to curb their land rate down.

They should have added Surrenders and Resists back to the game, not that it would have mattered much for balance...

Mystics could always add +15 WIT to their characters, but that means they're taking Casting Speed over M.Atk (INT). Fighters could never touch INT.

Dyes have always worked that way.

Daggers have always worked that way.

Daggers have always been countered by Tank classes in that way.

---

I'm going to stop there.

What the OP of that thread wants, is another game. This is just the case of "newer" players not having a clue what the game was like a decade ago. Lineage II was always kind of terrible. Believe it or not, "Classic" L2, was pretty much what the OP writes about in that thread, except Surrenders and Resist Buffs were still in there.

Yes, Necros were OP and people complained about them until the revamp in GoD, and then started complaining about Feoh Soultaker once they did the "re-diversification."

L2 was designed for RMT, I'm almost convinced. It's pretty much the most RMT-friendly game the MMO industry has ever seen, by a significant market... Everything form Adena to Characters to Gear Items to Leveling Services, etc. was RMTable and taken advantage of by the player base. These types of PvP games attract the wrong types of players in Western markets.

The game was never balanced. The game always had a grind that simply wasn't validated by fun factor and there were always issues with shift leveling and account sharing. There was always issues with RMT. Why do you think the live servers on L2 died?

Panther2103 · March 2016

The reason I left was due to me not realizing how much time I used to have back when I played in those days, and how little i have compared to that now. I tried to level, it took me like a few days to hit 25. I remember back in the day I was in high school and could play every day after school, and for a week straight on break. Now that kind of time just doesn't exist so it was no longer fun for me.

Wizardry · March 2016

Seriously this says two things.
1 pvp should never be a part of a mmorpg
2 When you encourage pvp and account sharing to RACE in a game,it says the game has no character or substance in that everyone just wants to race through the game as fast as possible.

it says to me bad game design and it also says people are not playing for the enjoyment but rather treat gaming like some race and to get ahead on the pvp scene,imo really shallow reasons to game.

Sovrath · March 2016

What went wrong? It's European only.

Mikeha · March 2016

Darksworm said:

In Classic L2 (i.e. 2006 and earlier), Stuns had a high land rate. This is why so many people played Archers. Stun for the win.

Stuns worked like that back then, and many classes had multiple stuns back then.

Land Rate on Root/Fear, etc. was high up until NCSoft nerfed them and introduced more buffs in the game to curb their land rate down.

They should have added Surrenders and Resists back to the game, not that it would have mattered much for balance...

Mystics could always add +15 WIT to their characters, but that means they're taking Casting Speed over M.Atk (INT). Fighters could never touch INT.

Dyes have always worked that way.

Daggers have always worked that way.

Daggers have always been countered by Tank classes in that way.

---

I'm going to stop there.

What the OP of that thread wants, is another game. This is just the case of "newer" players not having a clue what the game was like a decade ago. Lineage II was always kind of terrible. Believe it or not, "Classic" L2, was pretty much what the OP writes about in that thread, except Surrenders and Resist Buffs were still in there.

Yes, Necros were OP and people complained about them until the revamp in GoD, and then started complaining about Feoh Soultaker once they did the "re-diversification."

L2 was designed for RMT, I'm almost convinced. It's pretty much the most RMT-friendly game the MMO industry has ever seen, by a significant market... Everything form Adena to Characters to Gear Items to Leveling Services, etc. was RMTable and taken advantage of by the player base. These types of PvP games attract the wrong types of players in Western markets.

The game was never balanced. The game always had a grind that simply wasn't validated by fun factor and there were always issues with shift leveling and account sharing. There was always issues with RMT. Why do you think the live servers on L2 died?

Yea, the OP of that thread has no clue. I remember the unbalance and the perma stun. Lineage 2 was always like that.

It was the replies in the thread of people saying they were leaving the game that really caught my attention.

Octagon7711 · March 2016

Panther2103 said:

The reason I left was due to me not realizing how much time I used to have back when I played in those days, and how little i have compared to that now. I tried to level, it took me like a few days to hit 25. I remember back in the day I was in high school and could play every day after school, and for a week straight on break. Now that kind of time just doesn't exist so it was no longer fun for me.

I was addicted to the game for awhile. The grind was insane but it was the people you met who kept you coming back for more. Good times for the most part.

apophiss2004 · March 2016

Recore said:

The forums are full of people complaining saying L2 Classic is dying and people are quitting.

To the people that play I want to hear your thoughts.

Is it really over already?

People Are Quitting
https://4gameforum.com/threads/560182/

The forum is full of people complaining about everything, but that doesn't really show the real situation (I guess that the rest that enjoy the game do not spend their time on forums).

The game has it flaws, but it still is one of the best PvP MMORPGs out there.

Why people quited? Most of them quited because they realized they do not have that free time anymore. Another big part hoped that they will be able to bot there, but Inova did a good job banning most of them. There are still people active boting, but I hope they will be caught someday.

Server is around 1400 active players during primetime. One week ago a well known player hosted a podcast where he invited the top clan leaders and an official staff from Inova. The podcast was held on Twitch where it was followed by 750 viewers, so there is still a lot of interest in this project.

For the moment at least, when the map is not complete, there are still enough players. We have daily pvps (ranging from 1vs1 to 3vs3 parties), and sometimes we get caught in a massive pvps (around 60 vs 60). Could be better, but those who are still playing are having a good time.

BK2O1 · March 2016

Sovrath said:

What went wrong? It's European only.

To play from North America just use a free vpn on your browser to log in. Use PayPal to sub.

Dahkoht · March 2016

Played L2 at NA launch and Korean version before that. If there was a US version of vanilla I'd sub and play it.

I don't care about it being "fair and balanced" , as that basically means bland and boring class homogenization to me.

I loved griding mobs , the PVP system , and overall Lineage 2 gameplay before it was made easy mode in comparison to how it is now on the non vanilla servers.

Not in a race , I have patience and , I wouldn't care about how long it takes to level , playing for an hour enjoying the music ,scenery , no hand holding would be fine with me.

Just prefer to not fool with paypal and VPN's and increased ping times any more as did that for years withi the Korean version before it launched in NA.

Would gladly support and pay for an NA classic server.

filmoret · April 2016

I wonder if the vanilla wow would just be a repeat of what we have witnessed here.

reeereee · April 2016

Darksworm said:

Stuns last longer than their skills cooldown.
Stuns can be reapplied to a target who is already stunned.
Classes have multiple stuns even though the land rate is extremely high with just one.
Land rate on root, fear and other instant fight winning skills that cast in less than a second is too high.
Without surrender to element, and because gloom is still in the game, the necromancer has a clear advantage in damage, health and utility over any other nuker.
Resist unholy, water, wind, fire etc are not in the game giving nukers more of an advantage.
Mystics can add con and remove strength, but fighters cannot add men and remove int.
Dyes can add too many stats leading to casters with +15 wit.
Non magic damage dealers use too much mana for physical skills.
Assassins miss from flank/rear when nukers and archers can fire at 900 range and hit.
Lethal strikes are not in the game allowing an assassin no damage potential against a lot of heavily armored enemies even though they sacrifice range and survivability.
Backstab deals the same rear damage as deadly blow when it should be ignoring a portion of the enemy's armor resulting in more damage.
Gladiators, tyrants and archers skills crit too frequently, and with no chance of missing.
Evasion is worthless until very high levels as most damage taken is from skills.
Real money trading is very obvious and seems to be being ignored or not punished severely enough.
The economy is being controlled by real money traders and bots.
Because the dexterity stat does not add or remove speed when modified, it is being abused.
The current exp curve is absurd and demoralizing, even with the 35% event. This kind of grind can only be justified by a massive server population, which is no longer the case.

Sounds like they nailed the oldschool L2 feel then.

Scorchien · April 2016

filmoret said:

I wonder if the vanilla wow would just be a repeat of what we have witnessed here.

Pretty good indicator , just as the EQ EQ 2 servers were rushed then abandon .. Both have very small pop now ..

Mikeha · April 2016

What keeps a person playing a mmo is the sense of wonder about what is ahead. You must have something to look foward to that you have not seen or done to keep you playing.

I knew L2 classic would not work. People have already done what it offers and already know what is ahead because they have been there before and done it. Sure it is going to be awesome for maybe a month but the passion to log on will fade.

scorpex-x · April 2016

This shows that the Wow devs are right, players are simply full of nostalgia and won't stick to a vanilla game in reality.

The thing that made vanilla games amazing wasn't the state of the game, it was your state of mind.

Raven · April 2016

scorpex-x said:

This shows that the Wow devs are right, players are simply full of nostalgia and won't stick to a vanilla game in reality.

The thing that made vanilla games amazing wasn't the state of the game, it was your state of mind.

This is so spot on, I went back and tried it and altough the Lineage series is one of my favourite games of all time ( L1 and L2 ) I just cant play it anymore, its just painfully slow, I just cant spend 6h in front of my computer grinding mobs, what made the game awesome was the community and playing with your friends, this kind of interaction just isnt there anymore for me, so it becomes pointless.

WoW is a great example, balance wise and even class wise WoW was a terrible game in vanilla, buff bot classes, armor with all sorts of stats that made no sense, too many people in raids that could just afk really etc...

Even BlackDesert is really pushing my limits of how much grind I can take, I really like the other aspects of the game but it still feels like a massive grind if you want to get involved with the big boys at a base level.

Savinea · July 2016

Can you see the user online numbers somewhere?

Octagon7711 · July 2016

I ended up quitting mostly because of the insane grind plus xp loss and mainly because a lot of better games came out. Aion, Eve, etc.

Gitmix · July 2016

@Savinea

http://l2on.net/en/?c=online&a=stat&target=Skelth

Looks like it stabilized around 500.

Panther2103 · July 2016

coretex666 said:

Octagon7711 said:

I ended up quitting mostly because of the insane grind plus xp loss and mainly because a lot of better games came out. Aion, Eve, etc.

Ye, Classic is pretty brutal in this regard. At level 42, I needed like 5k monsters for level up. Sometimes a PK shows up to put you back several hours of intense grind.

On the other hand, it is relatively simple to make money and to get decent gear on Classic. I played the game quite casually and I was able to get a top C staff and a robe set at level 40.

I don't know if they changed that or not. I remember back in the day when L2 launched, that it was super hard to get money. But that also could have been because I was young and it was one of my first MMORPG's. I did notice on the Innova classic server that I was making quite a bit of money.

epoq · July 2016

Just depends on the crowd, what they wanted, and if it was catered to. In the case of EQ2 for example, it failed because it was a disaster from the start. You could tell it was a last ditch effort from Daybreak to make some money, and wasn't thoroughly thought out at all. On top of that, people were screaming for a "classic" experience, and they came back and said NO - we aren't doing classic, this won't be anything remotely close to the actual vanilla experience people had in 2003-2004, but more or less a "progression" server, that keeps everything in the modern UI and modernization of the game in terms of added items over the years but just in a LOCKED environment for a period of time. This destroyed the game very early on as there were items in the game in the very first expansion that were FAR too powerful and made the game 100% EZ mode. Raids that used to be extremely challenging were being done with 1/2 the numbers it typically took in 1/2 the time. Also most of the raid loot was worthless as it wasn't scaled properly over time with the rest of the content, so the items found in normal dungeons were 5x more powerful than raid gear of that tier.

Short version - "Progression" Servers are stupid, and a waste of time. If you aren't going to/can't do it right don't waste the time and resources. "Vanilla" means totally unadulterated day 1 content the way the game was originally created. I know this is hard for a lot of games to do -- they claim they don't have the source code from that period or it's impossible to implement like that, well, screw it then.

That being said, even a WoW progression server would work out for a while. It would be in insane overflow mode through WoTLK and I think everyone knows that. I could see it dropping off past that point as a lot of the original players like myself basically got over it or lost interest by that point, but the game in it's hayday was worth playing. I don't think any game with as many expansions as EQ2 or WoW would survive a long time period progression through every exp pack, nostalgia is cool and all but it truly does lose it's appeal eventually. Once people have had their fix they go back to live where the current action is or move on to the next game.

Dullahan · July 2016

Comparing the popularity of half-assed, localized classic projects to a vanilla WoW is a fail comparison.

I don't think anyone believes vanilla WoW will be as popular as WoW during that era, but all anyone has to do is look at how popular illegal WoW emulators were. Those emus were more popular than the official L2 and EQ2 classic/progression servers...

Lets get real here.

lillo87 · July 2016

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Suraknar · July 2016

Well this is news to me. How come thjis game is still around? I playe Lineage Vanilla back when it foirst released. 6 months later I was quiting very disappointed and upset at the gameplay.

The gold selling busines (adena), the Farmers the bots, the Company that did not care, but also this was my first introduction oto Korean gameplay and I vowed never to play another Korean game because of Lineage II.

They make awesome graphics, the artists are great. But their gameplay sucks big time and they themselves get involved in to teh RMT behind the scenes. Are they simply trying to get new fish from the pond of players?

Why does anyone bother with this still? Thsi game is not worth it at all.

Kabulozo · August 2016

The game is completely unbalanced and broken, it's even more broken than the old pre-interlude times, developers have no idea about what they're doing.

Now that the nostalgia glasses were taken off, a lot of people who remember some good times when playing pre-interlude L2 when were kids realized the huge flaws of the game, as a result they're leaving in swarms.

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Lineage 2 Classic: What went wrong?

People Are Quitting

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

People Are Quitting

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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Lineage 2 Classic: What went wrong?

People Are Quitting

Comments

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

People Are Quitting

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey