Oh looky what we have here ... a cuddly wittle wuv nest chat between two dissafected PvPers.
You know, those supposed hard-core keyboard warrior PvP types that come to MMORPGs to get their inept PvP fix on by ganking unsuspecting PvEers. And then have the nerve to call PvEers "carebears."
Get atta here with that mess lol
Keep cuddling ... that's what PvP carebears are good for.
You forgot to call me a basement dwelling, neck bearded, mouth breather.
Or were you saving those for your big coup de grace?
I didn't forget. I just didn't feel the obvious needed mentioning. That would be redundant. Nice of you to admit it though. Reinforcing a truth is rarely ever a bad thing.
Oh ok. Sorry for being redundant. I can tell from all your other posts in this thread you don't like people recycling the same asinine opinion in an effort to hammer home the point that everyone agrees with them, and those who don't are poopy-mouthed, dumbfaces.
I am curious why you've responded so vehemently to me over and over tho, yet ignored some of the valid retorts people have responded to your, for lack of better words, "line of reasoning?"
Can I ask that without you going all Medieval on me with your amazing PvP skills?
Here's the one reason the writer in the article failed to account for ...
For the longest time, BDO had been advertised as an OWPvP game. So much so that the minority PvP-centric players in the game are still under the false impression that the game is a PvP-centric game, when everything in the game speaks to the contratry.Not only does a player do nothing but PvE activities from level one to level 45, but everything that is done after level 45 requires for the PvP players to still engage in an enormous amount of PvE to be able to PvP properly.
In any event, because the rumor was so prevalently spread that the game was OWPvP and largely PvP-centric, it flew under the radar and went largely ignored by the PvE crowd. Without that majority support from the MMORPG genre demographic, it was bound to not be as popular as these other PvE-centric MMORPGs like Wildstar, GW2, FFXIV etc. These types OWPvP-centric MMORPGs never sell well. As a matter of fact, Daum themselves seemed pleasantly surprised to have even sold 400,000 copies.
Once it was released, and the PvE-centric demographic discovered that BDO is no different than most recently released MMORPGs in that it is, indeed, a predominantly PvE-centric game with PvP simply tacked on at end game, and not this overwhelmingly PvP-centric an MMORPG, its popularity rose and it will continue to rise on the backs of the PvE crowd unless Daum is unable to get their heads out from that dark place and throw the PvE crowd a bone by either giving them a PvE server or re-instituting the PvP opt in quest at level 50.
The future of BDO lies on its treatment of the PvE crowd. The PvE crowd is up in arms and the battles are raging on the BDO forum as we speak regarding their need to be heard. If Daum fails to listen to them, they will go down in flames like the rest of these PvP-centric game developers who made the decision to listen to the vociferous failed voices of the PvP-centric crowd. The ball is on their court. Make the proper decision to cater to the PvEer needs and succeed, or continue listening to the voices that breed toxic and fail communities and see their game, and their potential profits, go down in flames.
While I love PVE games myself I think you prove the point that every type of gamer thinks every game needs to be geared for them. This game was suppose to be an owPVP game for the endgame. Not a PVE game, unfortunately the developers made the same mistake I have talked about over and over about not choosing a direction and going with it. This trying to cater to both type of gamers hardly ever works out. You will make this side mad no matter what you do to help the other side. It is a no win situation.
Now if they try and make this into a PVE game it basically is throwing mud in the face of the PVP centric as you put it. This game was marketed toward them, not the PVE crowd. While I do agree there are tons of PVE experiences, those are not the customers Daum should listen to as they were not the customer based from the premise of release.
And this is coming from someone who truly wants a PVE game with no PVP released in the future. Every game made does not have to be for every gamer.
Except that your rationale falls flat on its face when you consider that when you are a business entrepreneur, or if you own a business, your main objective, if you want to succeed, is to market the majority in a population, not the minority in a population. Common sense tells you that marketing the majority will bring you the largest profit. There is no denying that in the MMORPG genre the PvE crowd is, by far, the majority. The PvE crowd, is therefore, the customers that Daum should be listening to, not the PvP crowd. Whether it be business or politics, there is power in numbers. That is at the very foundation of a democracy, and in a successful business venture. The majority wins. Period.
As someone with over 10 years experience in marketing, you are clueless.
Yeah, except your own post denying what I posted is wrong is the telling point that confirms that the clueless person here is you, not me.
Common sense tells us that the larger the market targeted, the greater the profit. That's why we have commercials, advertising, and marketing as a whole to begin with. To try and reach a maximum majority of the population. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Talk about clueless lol
Edited: to avoid ban hammer
You target a market where you can make a sizeable dent and make enough money. Further you need to consider the product you've developed which is usually produced with a target market in mind. Often your target market is not the largest and this can be for several reasons. In the MMORPG world it's not easy to make a profit for the "largest" audience, and many people aren't even entirely sure what that audience is right now. Especially in the Korean gaming market which is so over-saturated compared to ours, you really need to be different to stand out.
And no, you definitely do not want to reach the "maximum majority of the population". That's a completely terrible idea that I try very hard to recommend against because it often backfires, getting you a larger number of unhappy customers and a very large number of people that just flat out ignore your message. Not to mention all of the money you've now wasted on those people that could have been better spent elsewhere. There's only a few select times when that's actually a worthwhile tactic.
We go to great lengths to narrow down who we advertise to, to exactly the target we want to reach. We don't want to spam people with ads who aren't interested in our product because that only creates a negative reputation and unhappy people that are guaranteed to never be our customer, and who are far more likely to then complain to friends about how annoying we are than happy customers are to say how amazing we are. A big part of what I do personally is to in various ways collect information and narrow down contact lists via a variety of methods in order to make sure we only are reaching out to those best suited for the message we're delivering. The more targeted the better.
Sure, finding ways to expand your audience is always good, but you don't do so blindly. You do so via carefully planned and again - targeted efforts, ensuring those new folks are those that you actually think would be interested. And when it comes to an online game, you have to do so carefully as to not lose the customers you have, especially since expanding your audience often means making controversial game changes.
Further if you've paid any attention to Black Desert's development thus far, and the game's these devs worked on before coming to PA, you'd notice that they've stuck to their guns very firmly on the idea of making an old school open world sandbox with an OwPvP endgame focus and open world PvE only in the form of open world dungeons and bosses.
I just don't understand consensual pvp. It seems to me, if there is pvp, if you know there is pvp, if you're playing the pvp game, you are a pvp game playing person, a.k.a. a "pvper". There are no pve people on a pvp game or pvp version of a game.
Also, 400k is fine because a) it doesn't have a popular ip, b) 400k units isn't the entire income, and it could be avg 50 to as much as 100 per unit in total sale from cash shop (including game cost). I think it's an expectable, even above average release.
I didn't forget. I just didn't feel the obvious needed mentioning. That would be redundant. Nice of you to admit it though. Reinforcing a truth is rarely ever a bad thing.
Oh ok. Sorry for being redundant. I can tell from all your other posts in this thread you don't like people recycling the same asinine opinion in an effort to hammer home the point that everyone agrees with them, and those who don't are poopy-mouthed, dumbfaces.
I am curious why you've responded so vehemently to me over and over tho, yet ignored some of the valid retorts people have responded to your, for lack of better words, "line of reasoning?"
Can I ask that without you going on Medieval on me with your amazing PvP skills?
... but I have responded to others.
That said, and in an effort to answer your query, I will say that I am "generally" a civil person. As such, I aim to be civil and respectful to others but only when they chose to be civil and respectful in return. I never quote another poster and "smart mouth" them unsolicited. It is not my nature to do so. However, often times I will create a post and toss it out for general consumption. Certain posters will take them personal, quote me, and then follow it up with a sharp jab to my gut. That is never a good thing. When a poster attacks me personally, instead of the message in my post, they enter my realm. Though I do not seek it, I do thrive on it. Respect begets respect.
I just don't understand consensual pvp. It seems to me, if there is pvp, if you know there is pvp, if you're playing the pvp game, you are a pvp game playing person, a.k.a. a "pvper". There are no pve people on a pvp game or pvp version of a game.
You're forgetting the nuances. Other than the NA/EU release BDO has a level 49 quest that you need to complete to advance to level 50 and beyond and enable PVP. In addition to that, there are "karma" penalties for initiating an attack.
For the NA/EU version they lowered the PVP to 45 without a quest requirement (although ironically that level 49 quest is still in the game with the text reading that you need to complete it to enable PVP ) and relaxed the karma penalties somewhat.
It is most definitely a PVP game but no PVP game is really like any other. They all have their quirks.
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As long as people are having fun, that's all that matters. I personally didn t like it, and it seems not as many people are interested in this hybrid style as some thought.
Those numbers are quite low IMO.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I just don't understand consensual pvp. It seems to me, if there is pvp, if you know there is pvp, if you're playing the pvp game, you are a pvp game playing person, a.k.a. a "pvper". There are no pve people on a pvp game or pvp version of a game.
Also, 400k is fine because a) it doesn't have a popular ip, b) 400k units isn't the entire income, and it could be avg 50 to as much as 100 per unit in total sale from cash shop (including game cost). I think it's an expectable, even above average release.
I agree. If you play a game with non-consensual PvP, by agreeing to play the game you are agreeing to be PvPed in said game. It's like clicking "Accept" on the Terms of Service after an update and then claiming later you didn't agree to it because you didn't read it. It just doesn't work that way.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP then don't play games that have it. There are a ton that don't (most, actually) and again, that's a choice you are making by playing those. Personally I don't like Black Desert's unbalanced gear issue and level imbalances, and knowing that would not be fixed in time for launch, I chose not to purchase the game. I generally enjoy OwPvP, but Daum made decisions I didn't like, and I in turn made the decision not to purchase.
Early sales are one thing, retention is another.
And there's a big difference between investors being happy with immediate returns and gamers being happy.
I think the PvP will drive a lot of players away.
So will the cash shop.
Put them together, and it'll compound the problem.
If I were BDO, I'd be very happy with 300,000 players after 6 months. If there's enough shop sales, that is.
I just don't understand consensual pvp. It seems to me, if there is pvp, if you know there is pvp, if you're playing the pvp game, you are a pvp game playing person, a.k.a. a "pvper". There are no pve people on a pvp game or pvp version of a game.
Also, 400k is fine because a) it doesn't have a popular ip, b) 400k units isn't the entire income, and it could be avg 50 to as much as 100 per unit in total sale from cash shop (including game cost). I think it's an expectable, even above average release.
I agree. If you play a game with non-consensual PvP, by agreeing to play the game you are agreeing to be PvPed in said game. It's like clicking "Accept" on the Terms of Service after an update and then claiming later you didn't agree to it because you didn't read it. It just doesn't work that way.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP then don't play games that have it. There are a ton that don't (most, actually) and again, that's a choice you are making by playing those. Personally I don't like Black Desert's unbalanced gear issue and level imbalances, and knowing that would not be fixed in time for launch, I chose not to purchase the game. I generally enjoy OwPvP, but Daum made decisions I didn't like, and I in turn made the decision not to purchase.
Did you play TSW fusang as Leiloni? You remind me of that person.
Yeah, except your own post denying what I posted is wrong is the telling point that confirms that the clueless person here is you, not me.
Common sense tells us that the larger the market targeted, the greater the profit. That's why we have commercials, advertising, and marketing as a whole to begin with. To try and reach a maximum majority of the population. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Talk about clueless lol
Edited: to avoid ban hammer
You target a market where you can make a sizeable dent and make enough money. Further you need to consider the product you've developed which is usually produced with a target market in mind. Often your target market is not the largest and this can be for several reasons. In the MMORPG world it's not easy to make a profit for the "largest" audience, and many people aren't even entirely sure what that audience is right now. Especially in the Korean gaming market which is so over-saturated compared to ours, you really need to be different to stand out.
And no, you definitely do not want to reach the "maximum majority of the population". That's a completely terrible idea that I try very hard to recommend against because it often backfires, getting you a larger number of unhappy customers and a very large number of people that just flat out ignore your message. Not to mention all of the money you've now wasted on those people that could have been better spent elsewhere. There's only a few select times when that's actually a worthwhile tactic.
We go to great lengths to narrow down who we advertise to, to exactly the target we want to reach. We don't want to spam people with ads who aren't interested in our product because that only creates a negative reputation and unhappy people that are guaranteed to never be our customer, and who are far more likely to then complain to friends about how annoying we are than happy customers are to say how amazing we are. A big part of what I do personally is to in various ways collect information and narrow down contact lists via a variety of methods in order to make sure we only are reaching out to those best suited for the message we're delivering. The more targeted the better.
Sure, finding ways to expand your audience is always good, but you don't do so blindly. You do so via carefully planned and again - targeted efforts, ensuring those new folks are those that you actually think would be interested. And when it comes to an online game, you have to do so carefully as to not lose the customers you have, especially since expanding your audience often means making controversial game changes.
Further if you've paid any attention to Black Desert's development thus far, and the game's these devs worked on before coming to PA, you'd notice that they've stuck to their guns very firmly on the idea of making an old school open world sandbox with an OwPvP endgame focus and open world PvE only in the form of open world dungeons and bosses.
Your post is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Why? Because the PvE crowd is as much a target audience for BDO as the PvP crowd. In other words, the game falls under the same market for both player demographics. It can also co-exist with or without the other. If it were not so it woulnd't have so much PvE play in it. As a matter of fact, a better argument could be made that BDO will prosper moreso with a player base comprised solely of PvE players, whereas the same can not be said in reverse.
This is not like trying to sell a lamborghini or a Rolls Royce to lower income populations that can not afford it. This is an MMORPG with a target base just as pertinent to the PvE base at is to the PvP base. Some people just argue for the sake of arguing without thinking about that of which they argue. So much wasted text explaining the obvious but saying nothing.
I guess people are finally seeing that BDO is not as popular as they believed. And here I am having a last laugh at all the people who were downvoting me over the past month for stating the obvious. BDO won't make it in the West, it's not as good as other Western MMOs, not nearly as good. Just as I've said already, if Wildstar didn't make it, why the hell would anyone expect BDO to make it? BDO will go F2P before the summer even begins, and they for sure won't even get close to the 1mil copies sold.
I'm not saying it's a bad game, hell I don't think Wildstar is a bad game either. However if you want to compete in the West against all these Giants, you really need a great MMORPG in all aspects, you need to cater to all the playstyles. That's easier said than done as you can see now.
I have nothing about BDO, I think it's a pretty decent game as a niche MMO. What bothered me is all the people on these forums that hyped it so much, when the game was never that popular nor good to begin with. I guess the honeymoon period is coming to an end. It didn't take long this time.
So what they are now barely 150k-200k active players after just 1 month. That's certainly not enough to be sustainable as an B2P MMO.
I'm curious what games you're citing when you mention "these Giants that cater to all aspects." I can't think of any really. Most of the west giants are PVE/Themepark/mostly solo experiences, with some other stuff haphazardly tacked on.
WoW, ESO, FFXIV, GW2 and SWTOR. These 5 MMOs are way ahead of the curve, and for a good reason.
Most MMOs are solo experiences until the endgame, even BDO. The thing with BDO is that it's PvE endgame is abysmal, while PvP endgame mediocre on it's best day. It's journey to the endgame is perhaps better than most, but that's not enough for it to survive. Also BDO is not sandbox, it's still very much themepark.
BDO is a niche MMO, there are very few people who will bother with it in the long run. It excells in a few aspects, but also fails in most others. Those 5 MMOs listed above are that successful and popular because they are all-rounded high quality products, even if WoW is far from it's prime nowadays.
Besides what does BDO actually do better than all these 5? I can't think of a single thing. Sure it's graphics might be the best, though ESO's graphics are comparable, but that's not the most important thing everyone's searching for in an MMO. ESO is the king of huge-scale PvP, Immersion and the Journey to the max level, GW2 king of medium-scale PvP and dynamic events, SWTOR king of cinematics and storytelling, while WoW and FFXIV are the best at PvE endgame.
I just don't understand consensual pvp. It seems to me, if there is pvp, if you know there is pvp, if you're playing the pvp game, you are a pvp game playing person, a.k.a. a "pvper". There are no pve people on a pvp game or pvp version of a game.
Also, 400k is fine because a) it doesn't have a popular ip, b) 400k units isn't the entire income, and it could be avg 50 to as much as 100 per unit in total sale from cash shop (including game cost). I think it's an expectable, even above average release.
I agree. If you play a game with non-consensual PvP, by agreeing to play the game you are agreeing to be PvPed in said game. It's like clicking "Accept" on the Terms of Service after an update and then claiming later you didn't agree to it because you didn't read it. It just doesn't work that way.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP then don't play games that have it. There are a ton that don't (most, actually) and again, that's a choice you are making by playing those. Personally I don't like Black Desert's unbalanced gear issue and level imbalances, and knowing that would not be fixed in time for launch, I chose not to purchase the game. I generally enjoy OwPvP, but Daum made decisions I didn't like, and I in turn made the decision not to purchase.
Did you play TSW fusang as Leiloni? You remind me of that person.
Hmm no. I have TSW but I've never PvPed in that game. I've never even gotten to "max" level lol.
They seem to be ignoring sales that came before for some reason. As I pointed out "this is 400k in the first month".
What about all the sales prior to the first month? I purchased prior to the first month as did other people. Unless of course they just don't know how to say 400k total.
But the article indicates "first month".
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400K not so great. IMO numbers will probably go down from here as I ve seen most I ve know leave the game already. I know I m not the only person on the planet, but I m sure there are more in my spot then not. People claiming the amount joining as opposed to leaving is greater I think would be fooling themselves.
Keep in mind that the 400k are about "units sold", not active players. So the 400k will very unlikely go significantly down, unless a ton of people actually return their game so to say.
That's why i said "the only way for the numbers are up", because esp. with the upcoming content, most likely people that where on the verge of buying it will give it a go. I know i will do. It's only 30 bucks and the more they add to the game, the more it will be worth people's money. And i can't see anything else exciting to get released any time soon that would make me think twice about which game i'll buy in the end.
Besides the upcoming content, i also assume that the more people reach lvl50+, BDO will open up even more as it gets more top heavy. Like it is with every other game's high-lvl PvP, 0sec activities, raids etc., BDO will also change to a more complete experience the more overall guild-business really starts to establish itself. So in that sense the best time to buy and try BDO is rather "soon" and not -like with many other games- somewhere in it's past.
If there will be more people leaving than joining is a different question. Sales will go up either way -how many of those players will stay we don't know.
400K is a long way from the numbers the 'failed' games got in the (with hindsight) 'golden age' of MMOs.
I said it in another thread, basically every so called 'failed' game from 2006-2012 sold close to a million boxes/copies. Many of those also had subscriptions for at least a year, some quite a bit longer than that. Then they went free to play with a cash shop. The only one that completely failed was WarHammer, and it ironically probably sold the most units.
The ORIGINAL 'vision' of Black Desert would have sold 4 or 5 times what this version did. But if they eventually get to that vision the units will sell. Unlikely it will be 100% what the original plan was (since it had open world housing) but it could be close.
Now if these guys wanted to be completely revolutionary, once they got the game to a very good state, they could shit can the cash shop and make it a sub to play game. If anything they could test to see if what everyone harps about is actually true...'make a game worth playing and I will sub to it'. So they could go backwards. Unlikely to happen but they seem to have big plans for this game and if they add enough content and switch up some of the stuff most people dont like about it they could take a shot.
The rage is yours and obvious in your responses, my friend. Where it not true, you would not be responding the manner that you are. FYI, I enjoy PvP and would mop the virtual platform with your virtual pixels on any competitive PvP game of your choosing. I just don't care for non-consensual PvP, and ganking of unsuspecting PvE players, in MMORPGs. When I want to PvP, I PvP with the big boys in competitive PvP games that do PvP much better than MMORPGs. PvP in MMORPGs is for the spineless keyboard warrior that get their jollies ganking unsuspecting PvE players.
You do have a lot of intelligent things to say. But at times, responses like this just go over the top. It the very very small minority of people who like to PvP in MMORPG's that like to gank.
My reference is to the the PvP types who support non-consensual PvP, not the PvX type that encourage consensual PvP. Of that I have been clear on these forums since day one. Again, I have no problem with PvP as long as the PvP is consensual. I do have a problem with non-consensual PvP and the toxic tough-talking keyboard warriors that support that type of PvP play. Its just my nature and i will continue to advocate against it at every given opportunity.
Personally I'm more of the PVE type. But I like Virtual Worlds and in a world you do have dangerous people, the Serial Killer psychopathic types.
Games just need to Deter this type of behavior strongly enough that these types are as rare as they are in a real world.
IMHO A reasonable amount of this type of behavior actually enhances gameplay.
Well, your post makes sense, but that goal of "deterring that type of behavior enough that these types are as rare as they are in the world" has never been achieved. And that presents the gist of the problem with MMORPGs that feature both PvE and PvP, and why MMORPGs featuring OWPvP are rarely, if ever, successful. They are an oxymoron.
In order for bountiful PvP to exist in an OWPvP MMORPG, there needs to be a lot of players. That is why many MMORPGs now days are implementing the system where the first 30 to 50 levels or so are PvE and then they flip the switch and force all players into an OWPvP gaming format. This is done to entice the PvE player to play the game with the hopes that by the time they reach that PvP level they will be too invested in the game to quit. By doing so, the PvE player in essence, becomes the content that fuels the "end game" PvP fun for the PvPer.
The developers care very little, because this saves them money, because they don't have to develop expensive end game content to keep their player base happy. The PvPers love it because they ham it all up laughing all the way to joyville while feeding on the unsuspecting sheep in PvEers that are being fed to them by the system. The only losers in the whole equation are the PvEers.
This is unacceptable and it needs to stop. PvEers need to start speaking up and quit being so passive. This will only happen when they become as toxic and out-spoken as these PvPers, who while being the minority, have had their way in changing the evolution of the MMORPG into the bastardized gaming genre that it is today. Nothing will change unless some of us start speaking up against it. I have never been one to stand idly by while injustices are being done. I know I am just one person, and I have no illusion that I will enact change, but I'll be damned if that will ever keep me from speaking up about that injustice and having my say against it.
Its just not my nature.
Something that I would like to see tried as a deterrence is say when a person is ganked the murderer has to survive for a certain period of time without being killed and if they fail they lose everything they own in game.
You need the kind of penalty would not be for the faint of heart.
Gender locking is definitely keeping some people away...but the forced PvP is most likely going to limit the audience. If they ever decide to add a PvE server, PvE only channels, or a completely optional flagging system, sales would double, easily, as it is a sandbox-ish PvE players paradise. IMO, of course.
LacedOpium said: "This (forced pvp) is unacceptable and it needs to stop. PvEers need to start speaking up and quit being so passive.
This will only happen when they become as toxic and out-spoken as these PvPers"
laserit said: Something that I would like to see tried as a deterrence is say when a person is ganked the murderer has to survive for a certain period of time without being killed and if they fail they lose everything they own in game.
You need the kind of penalty would not be for the faint of heart.
BDO has a ridiculously penalizing OW PVP karma system. Honestly I think a problem they have is they tried too hard to make the game both PVE and PVP friendly. From my understanding there is little to no OW PVP in the game because "ganking" 1 player takes hours of grinding to repair your karma - angering the pvp community. At the same time rarely people gank anyway angering the pve community. They took the worst road they could and made both sides unhappy.
PvE only games obviously can be successful, but OWPVP games can be just as successful (wow, eve). Most of the time they fail because the developers spent all their time on pvp and didn't develop the PvE aspects in their pvp game. If there's nothing to do but gank the game won't last long. There has to be meaningful content coupled with the pvp to make the game successful.
As for speaking out against developers, just don't play the games that have any owpvp content if you don't like it. Speaking with your wallet will mean more to devs than any amount of toxicity.
LacedOpium said: "This (forced pvp) is unacceptable and it needs to stop. PvEers need to start speaking up and quit being so passive.
This will only happen when they become as toxic and out-spoken as these PvPers"
laserit said: Something that I would like to see tried as a deterrence is say when a person is ganked the murderer has to survive for a certain period of time without being killed and if they fail they lose everything they own in game.
You need the kind of penalty would not be for the faint of heart.
BDO has a ridiculously penalizing OW PVP karma system. Honestly I think a problem they have is they tried too hard to make the game both PVE and PVP friendly. From my understanding there is little to no OW PVP in the game because "ganking" 1 player takes hours of grinding to repair your karma - angering the pvp community. At the same time rarely people gank anyway angering the pve community. They took the worst road they could and made both sides unhappy.
PvE only games obviously can be successful, but OWPVP games can be just as successful (wow, eve). Most of the time they fail because the developers spent all their time on pvp and didn't develop the PvE aspects in their pvp game. If there's nothing to do but gank the game won't last long. There has to be meaningful content coupled with the pvp to make the game successful.
As for speaking out against developers, just don't play the games that have any owpvp content if you don't like it. Speaking with your wallet will mean more to devs than any amount of toxicity.
Have to comment on earlier age discussion. People under 25 don't even recognize mmorpg as a genre, let alone play them. I would be surprised if people still interested in mmorpg as a serious genre is comprised of more than 5% people under 25 now.
I could never imagine people of that age group giving games like RYL, silkroad, ragnarok, a try without some huge media campaign, and even then probably not because they are predominantly console gamers, with very few of them investing in beefy computers.
We are all oldies here. Kids can find all sorts of games to get an online multiplayer fix. They don't need mmos. MMOs used to compete with a handful of games, counterstrike, ummm maybe a couple others.
"It does away with so many conventions - while retaining just enough that we’re used to - that it was never bound to be as popular as its peers."
Does this strike anyone else as crazy, in the light of people whining about every new game that it's just another WoW-clone, and that there is no innovation? How crazy is it that people drop new games that don't provide you welfare epics at every turn, while flocking back to the same old WoW's next expansion - NOW with GARRISONS!!!!!!!! But a game has no tab-targetting? Pfff, failure right there, ded gam is ded!! Game has quests? Pfff, WoW-clone, might as well keep my $15 to the Blizz-Victory-fund going.
You're making a lot of assumptions, buddy. One, I have no interest in these P2W asian garbage games. Two, I don't play WoW.
every server crowded in the evening since launch...seems enough and moreover most seem to stay. good start for growing further. i guess it will but you never know...odd enouh so many ppl just love wow and the sort *shrug*
for me best game since eve with a lot of depth besides combat and more stuff you "can" do than all the western mmo's of the last 10 years combined :surprised: spent the last 2 weeks just with crafting and didn't hit a mob and had a blast. this weeks combat time again...choices *yay*
just don't look for a dungeon grinder with group finder style of game. besides that even the gear progression is a bummer compared to wow & clones...it mostly adds on the items you have without having you throw away the gear with every patch.
hard to describe but very well done core system with tons of choices for a lot of playstyles.
Comments
I am curious why you've responded so vehemently to me over and over tho, yet ignored some of the valid retorts people have responded to your, for lack of better words, "line of reasoning?"
Can I ask that without you going all Medieval on me with your amazing PvP skills?
And no, you definitely do not want to reach the "maximum majority of the population". That's a completely terrible idea that I try very hard to recommend against because it often backfires, getting you a larger number of unhappy customers and a very large number of people that just flat out ignore your message. Not to mention all of the money you've now wasted on those people that could have been better spent elsewhere. There's only a few select times when that's actually a worthwhile tactic.
We go to great lengths to narrow down who we advertise to, to exactly the target we want to reach. We don't want to spam people with ads who aren't interested in our product because that only creates a negative reputation and unhappy people that are guaranteed to never be our customer, and who are far more likely to then complain to friends about how annoying we are than happy customers are to say how amazing we are. A big part of what I do personally is to in various ways collect information and narrow down contact lists via a variety of methods in order to make sure we only are reaching out to those best suited for the message we're delivering. The more targeted the better.
Sure, finding ways to expand your audience is always good, but you don't do so blindly. You do so via carefully planned and again - targeted efforts, ensuring those new folks are those that you actually think would be interested. And when it comes to an online game, you have to do so carefully as to not lose the customers you have, especially since expanding your audience often means making controversial game changes.
Further if you've paid any attention to Black Desert's development thus far, and the game's these devs worked on before coming to PA, you'd notice that they've stuck to their guns very firmly on the idea of making an old school open world sandbox with an OwPvP endgame focus and open world PvE only in the form of open world dungeons and bosses.
Also, 400k is fine because a) it doesn't have a popular ip, b) 400k units isn't the entire income, and it could be avg 50 to as much as 100 per unit in total sale from cash shop (including game cost). I think it's an expectable, even above average release.
... but I have responded to others.
That said, and in an effort to answer your query, I will say that I am "generally" a civil person. As such, I aim to be civil and respectful to others but only when they chose to be civil and respectful in return. I never quote another poster and "smart mouth" them unsolicited. It is not my nature to do so. However, often times I will create a post and toss it out for general consumption. Certain posters will take them personal, quote me, and then follow it up with a sharp jab to my gut. That is never a good thing. When a poster attacks me personally, instead of the message in my post, they enter my realm. Though I do not seek it, I do thrive on it. Respect begets respect.
I hope I have answered your question.
For the NA/EU version they lowered the PVP to 45 without a quest requirement (although ironically that level 49 quest is still in the game with the text reading that you need to complete it to enable PVP
It is most definitely a PVP game but no PVP game is really like any other. They all have their quirks.
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― CD PROJEKT RED
Great point. Why does it matter?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you don't want non-consensual PvP then don't play games that have it. There are a ton that don't (most, actually) and again, that's a choice you are making by playing those. Personally I don't like Black Desert's unbalanced gear issue and level imbalances, and knowing that would not be fixed in time for launch, I chose not to purchase the game. I generally enjoy OwPvP, but Daum made decisions I didn't like, and I in turn made the decision not to purchase.
And there's a big difference between investors being happy with immediate returns and gamers being happy.
I think the PvP will drive a lot of players away.
So will the cash shop.
Put them together, and it'll compound the problem.
If I were BDO, I'd be very happy with 300,000 players after 6 months. If there's enough shop sales, that is.
Once upon a time....
Your post is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Why? Because the PvE crowd is as much a target audience for BDO as the PvP crowd. In other words, the game falls under the same market for both player demographics. It can also co-exist with or without the other. If it were not so it woulnd't have so much PvE play in it. As a matter of fact, a better argument could be made that BDO will prosper moreso with a player base comprised solely of PvE players, whereas the same can not be said in reverse.
This is not like trying to sell a lamborghini or a Rolls Royce to lower income populations that can not afford it. This is an MMORPG with a target base just as pertinent to the PvE base at is to the PvP base. Some people just argue for the sake of arguing without thinking about that of which they argue. So much wasted text explaining the obvious but saying nothing.
Keep it relevant.
These 5 MMOs are way ahead of the curve, and for a good reason.
Most MMOs are solo experiences until the endgame, even BDO. The thing with BDO is that it's PvE endgame is abysmal, while PvP endgame mediocre on it's best day. It's journey to the endgame is perhaps better than most, but that's not enough for it to survive. Also BDO is not sandbox, it's still very much themepark.
BDO is a niche MMO, there are very few people who will bother with it in the long run. It excells in a few aspects, but also fails in most others. Those 5 MMOs listed above are that successful and popular because they are all-rounded high quality products, even if WoW is far from it's prime nowadays.
Besides what does BDO actually do better than all these 5? I can't think of a single thing. Sure it's graphics might be the best, though ESO's graphics are comparable, but that's not the most important thing everyone's searching for in an MMO. ESO is the king of huge-scale PvP, Immersion and the Journey to the max level, GW2 king of medium-scale PvP and dynamic events, SWTOR king of cinematics and storytelling, while WoW and FFXIV are the best at PvE endgame.
What about all the sales prior to the first month? I purchased prior to the first month as did other people. Unless of course they just don't know how to say 400k total.
But the article indicates "first month".
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So the 400k will very unlikely go significantly down, unless a ton of people actually return their game so to say.
That's why i said "the only way for the numbers are up", because esp. with the upcoming content, most likely people that where on the verge of buying it will give it a go. I know i will do. It's only 30 bucks and the more they add to the game, the more it will be worth people's money. And i can't see anything else exciting to get released any time soon that would make me think twice about which game i'll buy in the end.
Besides the upcoming content, i also assume that the more people reach lvl50+, BDO will open up even more as it gets more top heavy. Like it is with every other game's high-lvl PvP, 0sec activities, raids etc., BDO will also change to a more complete experience the more overall guild-business really starts to establish itself.
So in that sense the best time to buy and try BDO is rather "soon" and not -like with many other games- somewhere in it's past.
If there will be more people leaving than joining is a different question.
Sales will go up either way -how many of those players will stay we don't know.
I said it in another thread, basically every so called 'failed' game from 2006-2012 sold close to a million boxes/copies. Many of those also had subscriptions for at least a year, some quite a bit longer than that. Then they went free to play with a cash shop. The only one that completely failed was WarHammer, and it ironically probably sold the most units.
The ORIGINAL 'vision' of Black Desert would have sold 4 or 5 times what this version did. But if they eventually get to that vision the units will sell. Unlikely it will be 100% what the original plan was (since it had open world housing) but it could be close.
Now if these guys wanted to be completely revolutionary, once they got the game to a very good state, they could shit can the cash shop and make it a sub to play game. If anything they could test to see if what everyone harps about is actually true...'make a game worth playing and I will sub to it'. So they could go backwards. Unlikely to happen but they seem to have big plans for this game and if they add enough content and switch up some of the stuff most people dont like about it they could take a shot.
I don't care about numbers and never will,could be 50 million or just 1 copy,doesn't matter to me,i simply look for game design quality.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You need the kind of penalty would not be for the faint of heart.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
PvE only games obviously can be successful, but OWPVP games can be just as successful (wow, eve). Most of the time they fail because the developers spent all their time on pvp and didn't develop the PvE aspects in their pvp game. If there's nothing to do but gank the game won't last long. There has to be meaningful content coupled with the pvp to make the game successful.
As for speaking out against developers, just don't play the games that have any owpvp content if you don't like it. Speaking with your wallet will mean more to devs than any amount of toxicity.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I could never imagine people of that age group giving games like RYL, silkroad, ragnarok, a try without some huge media campaign, and even then probably not because they are predominantly console gamers, with very few of them investing in beefy computers.
We are all oldies here. Kids can find all sorts of games to get an online multiplayer fix. They don't need mmos. MMOs used to compete with a handful of games, counterstrike, ummm maybe a couple others.
for me best game since eve with a lot of depth besides combat and more stuff you "can" do than all the western mmo's of the last 10 years combined :surprised: spent the last 2 weeks just with crafting and didn't hit a mob and had a blast. this weeks combat time again...choices *yay*
just don't look for a dungeon grinder with group finder style of game. besides that even the gear progression is a bummer compared to wow & clones...it mostly adds on the items you have without having you throw away the gear with every patch.
hard to describe but very well done core system with tons of choices for a lot of playstyles.