Like Whilan said - griefing can happen through pve just as much as it happens through pvp. If you think you will be "safe" from griefers because you chose a "pve" server, you're in for a disappointment.
The reason CoE will never split into a pve/pvp server game (besides diluting and stretching its own playerbase) is because one of the hallmarks of the game is consequence. Real consequence.
Actions in games need to be tied to outcomes that players really care about. When you neuter an open world sandbox and take away repercussions for one's actions, no one cares what anyone is doing and griefing can go unchecked, unchallenged.
By losing game time through poor choices, you force a players hand -- they either need to play a lot more carefully in doing what they're doing, or they need to find safer areas and safer hobbies.
edit; some might say this punishes PVP. I say it punishes reckless pvp. Survival of the fittest -- thoughtless pkers will die out and be punished frequently and severely. Careful and cautious pvpers won't.
That's funny because being griefed by PvE ers is so rare and mild compared to PvP griefers that I hardly remember those instances, which leads me to believe that they are not significant by comparison.
Safer areas and Hobbies could be found in other games, that's not what you are saying though is it?
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
I didn't read it wrong. You are referring to "Aging", not PvP. I was talking about Griefers and their penalties vs your Normal Day to Day actions. You do not also automatically get 10 months minimum. If you die 15 times in game you lose 1 Real Life month from your spark. Think about that aspect.
So here is how I read that. Guild A gets pissy at Guild B and starts repeatedly griefing the leader of Guild B. Within a couple of weeks the Guild Leader of B has had to spend 30-60 dollars on sparks. While the community of Guild A probably didnt have to spend any since it was a shard pool of griefers.
Someone didn't go read up on CoE. They ASSumed. There is a cooldown period involved. Not going to look it up for you. Get CoEducated. All I will say is Good Luck trying to Grief People in this game.
What this feature tells me is that in CoE, we finally have a group of developers that finally get it. The whole point of responsible PvP in MMORPGs is "meaningful consequences." MMORPGs are not platform FPS, MOBA, or DOTA games. To attempt to translate PvP to MMORPGs as it is implemented in those genres is to develop a faulty MMORPG because in those genres death means nothing. They are pure platform PvP games, and as such, their whole existence is based on death counts that ultimately render death inconsequential and irrelevant.
PvP as it is being implement in CoE is done to neither encourage or discourage PvP, but to simply instill a sense of realism by ensuring that those that engage in PvP unnecessarily will face consequences for their actions. Meaningful consequences, with a progressive discipline system, is what is currently missing in the bevy of failed OWPvP MMORPGs on the market. Without it these games become nothing more than "gankfest" that satisfy no one but a very small minority of the MMORPG gaming demographic. This only serves to drive players away from the game instead of growing its player base.
The developers of CoE aren't telling you you can't PvP, because you obviously can to your hearts content. What they are telling you is that there will be consequences if you choose to do so irresponsibly. Any argument pro or con this PvP mechanic will only serve to highlight the extent and extreme by which the person arguing is pro or con OWPvP. If you are in the middle you are more apt to see the feature for what it is, and for what it aspires to accomplish. Personally, I applaud the developers of CoE for finally thinking outside the box and understanding that "meaningful consequences" is what separates PvP in platform FPS and MOBA style games, and PvP in an OWPvP MMORPG. Plainly put, if you are a blatant and unapologetic "griefer," this game will not be for you. For those interested in meaningful and responsible PvP, however, CoE appears to have found a winning recipe.
Major kudos go out to Soulbound studios for at least bringing up a concept that challenges the failed and accepted norm in the implementation of PvP in OWPvP MMORPGs.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
edited May 2016
CoE hearkens back to the coin-op arcade model where, for $30, players buy a Spark of Life
sounds fun..as a avid pvper i cant wait to get my poster hung up in town =D
You wont be able to see it because the guards will attack on sight. Ok if you KO someone you can grab a few items. If you kill them then you can take everything. I'm glad to see a company try something different. I just hope they can forsee a lot of the problems so it can be truly successful.
Of course they will see it, on their non pk alt accounts. Done all the time in EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The error most open world pvp mmos have made is by having too many restrictions on pvp and self-policing. Its the odd and awkward game mechanics that define the parameters of pvp in strict scenarios, leaving room for abuse and exploitation. This is where griefing often occurs.
Having safe zones is one of the biggest contributors. I remember when i played Blade and Soul i'd see some quest hubs guarded by packs of vets, waiting for people to leave so they could pick them off. Even if some other group pushed them out, the initial griefers lost nothing and could always come back another time.
In CoE, griefers have everything to lose. There won't be a safe zone banks storing all your money and gear safely. If you fuck up and piss off a city state with a standing army, and they find out where you're based out of, its a war. If you lose it, you lose everything you have. You won't be permadead, but you'll have nothing with which to grief or pk anyone.
There will also be negative consequences for some types of players as a result of all that. I can even imagine history repeating what happened in Tibia 16-17 years ago. The game had open world pvp, full inventory loot drop with a small chance of dropping one or two equipped items, and extremely harsh penalties for dying. People could access a bank to store items and gold only in one location in a capital city. Gold was physical, meaning it was carried around in inventory and dropped on the ground if player character got killed.
A guild called Mercenarys occupied a key island and established a kind of tyranny on anyone who wanted to visit the island to hunt in a lucrative dungeon there. It was one of the best dungeons in the game in terms of getting loot and experience points for mid-level player characters. Other people had to pay gold to the guild to be allowed to hunt in the dungeon. They always had a lot of guild members because for many people it was kind of fashionable to be in that guild due to all the power the guild had by keeping control of the island. They achieved self-sufficiency from the rest of the world by having a very firm control of the island and keeping all their essential items and gold there. Other guilds didn't risk having serious wars or conflicts with them because it would have been costly due to harsh death penalties. Nobody dared to sneak in and try to steal any of their items because of the fear of harsh death penalties. Nobody declined to pay the taxes. Their organised enemies were kill-on-sight on the island and small groups or solo adventurers were easy victims if they declined to follow the rules set up by the guild.
There will also be negative consequences for some types of players as a result of all that. I can even imagine history repeating what happened in Tibia 16-17 years ago.
That was the first MMO i ever played. I got PKed as a total noob while i was still trying to figure out the basics of the game. It scared me away from anything remotely PvP for years.
A guild controlling access to a dungeon would be a good thing in CoE. There won't be any developer created dungeons in CoE and there will be no specific areas for specific levels. But a guild ruling a certain area and charging tax to anyone entering it and players trying to avoid that, that is the real content of CoE.
I can understand why companies want to stop griefing. But this looks like they are stopping pvp.
They should have that way but not have it effect RL money, because it would stop PVP, they need to slow griefing, I actually designed a better way for a Wild West MMO a few years ago, our company isn't there yet to have the money to make it, but the design is we are making other games... Since we have no desire to ask for people from others .... We want to earn it our selves..... But with out giving away my ideas, they are on the right track, but its also the wrong...
There will also be negative consequences for some types of players as a result of all that. I can even imagine history repeating what happened in Tibia 16-17 years ago.
That was the first MMO i ever played. I got PKed as a total noob while i was still trying to figure out the basics of the game. It scared me away from anything remotely PvP for years.
A guild controlling access to a dungeon would be a good thing in CoE. There won't be any developer created dungeons in CoE and there will be no specific areas for specific levels. But a guild ruling a certain area and charging tax to anyone entering it and players trying to avoid that, that is the real content of CoE.
My worry is that solo and lone wolf players and small groups may not be too happy there if different clans and guilds occupy all the places with relevant finite resources or all the decent hunting grounds. People may be forced to join specific player guilds or clans to progress in their virtual CoE life. Someone who wants to become a hunter may have to join a clan controlling a forest with all the most interesting animals. Another player who wants to be a miner or blacksmith could be forced to join a guild controlling a mine with ore. Well, we'll see how it plays if the game launches succesfully.
Yanocchi said: My worry is that solo and lone wolf players and small groups may not be too happy there if different clans and guilds occupy all the places with relevant finite resources or all the decent hunting grounds. People may be forced to join specific player guilds or clans to progress in their virtual CoE life. Someone who wants to become a hunter may have to join a clan controlling a forest with all the most interesting animals. Another player who wants to be a miner or blacksmith could be forced to join a guild controlling a mine with ore. Well, we'll see how it plays if the game launches succesfully.
As a sole player trying to acquire rare things on remote places will be difficult. You will need to group up or hire guards or take the risk of getting killed and looted. I don't think there will be one forest that is better to hunt in or one mine that is better than others. There will be places that are guarded by guilds. Those will be part of the fun challenges in CoE, a lot less boring and static than locations with static respawning resource nodes and mobs.
Yanocchi said: My worry is that solo and lone wolf players and small groups may not be too happy there if different clans and guilds occupy all the places with relevant finite resources or all the decent hunting grounds. People may be forced to join specific player guilds or clans to progress in their virtual CoE life. Someone who wants to become a hunter may have to join a clan controlling a forest with all the most interesting animals. Another player who wants to be a miner or blacksmith could be forced to join a guild controlling a mine with ore. Well, we'll see how it plays if the game launches succesfully.
As a sole player trying to acquire rare things on remote places will be difficult. You will need to group up or hire guards or take the risk of getting killed and looted. I don't think there will be one forest that is better to hunt in or one mine that is better than others. There will be places that are guarded by guilds. Those will be part of the fun challenges in CoE, a lot less boring and static than locations with static respawning resource nodes and mobs.
I just hope it doesn't turn into Mortal Online. Whatever they can't carry they trash and it dissapears into thin air. Very bad design.
I just hope it doesn't turn into Mortal Online. Whatever they can't carry they trash and it dissapears into thin air. Very bad design.
Nothing disappears into thin air in CoE. If you drop an item it gets dropped. Itll stay there until someone picks it up, unless its something like food which will decay and go bad. But, you could drop a sword on the ground and come back a month later and grab it, assuming no one else found it.
I just hope it doesn't turn into Mortal Online. Whatever they can't carry they trash and it dissapears into thin air. Very bad design.
Nothing disappears into thin air in CoE. If you drop an item it gets dropped. Itll stay there until someone picks it up, unless its something like food which will decay and go bad. But, you could drop a sword on the ground and come back a month later and grab it, assuming no one else found it.
There are performance implications to that. First gen games used to allow players to drop things on the ground. In fact in some the mob drops actually went to the ground. It can cause issues. How do they plan to deal with something like that?
EQ1 - drop around 300+ things on the ground, frame rates instantly in single digits. This was actually a way of crashing lower end PC - was used to grief people.
Maybe allow an option for turning off dropped items to avoid that (of course i mean the visual not the actual dropping of items)? That was a time when people were unfamiliar with this type of griefing. Not saying griefing can't happen, just that developers can better understand how to combat things like that.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Marvel Heroes runs decently and mobs drops go to the ground and players can drop most items on the ground so others who use it can pick it up. Dropped items are on a timer and lasts like a min. or two. L2 and a few others had drops like that also. In L2 you could run into a field of dropped coins someone had been grinding left. Some items stayed down til a brief morning maintenance I think. It's been done and works well most of the time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"• Sparks of Life | Chronicles of Elyria utilizes a new business model never before seen in MMOs. CoE hearkens back to the coin-op arcade model where, for $30, players buy a Spark of Life that grants a soul the opportunity to live for between 10 and 14 (Real Life) months, before establishing your Soul in a new character of your choosing. (Note: 1 Spark of Life comes with purchase of the game.)
The Spark of Life system also helps reduce griefing. If you kill another character in-game, your face goes up on a wanted poster and a bounty token is created for you. This not only keeps you out of cities, but also means you can be taken to 'jail' which significantly reduces your lifespan, adding real financial repercussions to your in-game decisions. "
Was nice knowing you guys.
I don't see the problem. You want to grief others? It's time there was a real price.
I just hope it doesn't turn into Mortal Online. Whatever they can't carry they trash and it dissapears into thin air. Very bad design.
Nothing disappears into thin air in CoE. If you drop an item it gets dropped. Itll stay there until someone picks it up, unless its something like food which will decay and go bad. But, you could drop a sword on the ground and come back a month later and grab it, assuming no one else found it.
There are performance implications to that. First gen games used to allow players to drop things on the ground. In fact in some the mob drops actually went to the ground. It can cause issues. How do they plan to deal with something like that?
EQ1 - drop around 300+ things on the ground, frame rates instantly in single digits. This was actually a way of crashing lower end PC - was used to grief people.
Maybe allow an option for turning off dropped items to avoid that (of course i mean the visual not the actual dropping of items)? That was a time when people were unfamiliar with this type of griefing. Not saying griefing can't happen, just that developers can better understand how to combat things like that.
Yea they could put decay timers on everything, or they can just make it so you either put the items in your inventory or they stay on the corpse. I realize its unrealistic but lets say I want to trash a corpse. The system will force me to carry the items a certain distance or they will go back into the corpse when dropped. You could have janitors or guards in cities that clean up the ground to keep cities from getting overrun. But yea it can be easily exploited and too demanding on the servers. They could also have it so if any area has x ammount of loot on the ground some kind of npc cleanup crew shows up and grabs it all. Maybe even have a shop that sells it.
I didn't read it wrong. You are referring to "Aging", not PvP. I was talking about Griefers and their penalties vs your Normal Day to Day actions. You do not also automatically get 10 months minimum. If you die 15 times in game you lose 1 Real Life month from your spark. Think about that aspect.
So here is how I read that. Guild A gets pissy at Guild B and starts repeatedly griefing the leader of Guild B. Within a couple of weeks the Guild Leader of B has had to spend 30-60 dollars on sparks. While the community of Guild A probably didnt have to spend any since it was a shard pool of griefers.
Someone didn't go read up on CoE. They ASSumed. There is a cooldown period involved. Not going to look it up for you. Get CoEducated. All I will say is Good Luck trying to Grief People in this game.
Yes it does appear that someone didn't understand what they read. 2.5 hours cooldown. couple of weeks is 2-3, split that is 17.5 days. That is 420 hours. That is 168 'countable deaths' Rank Unknown: 336 days lost Rank Notable: 420 lost Rank Prominent: 670 days lost
CoE hearkens back to the coin-op arcade model where, for $30, players buy a Spark of Life
So...nothing like coin-op arcade models.
>.> Playing Tekken or SF in arcade stay on for being able to take on 2 hours worth of opponents by not dying. Play well and knock out my attackers in CoE staying alive 14 months ish. #ForeverYoung.
I just hope it doesn't turn into Mortal Online. Whatever they can't carry they trash and it dissapears into thin air. Very bad design.
Nothing disappears into thin air in CoE. If you drop an item it gets dropped. Itll stay there until someone picks it up, unless its something like food which will decay and go bad. But, you could drop a sword on the ground and come back a month later and grab it, assuming no one else found it.
There are performance implications to that. First gen games used to allow players to drop things on the ground. In fact in some the mob drops actually went to the ground. It can cause issues. How do they plan to deal with something like that?
True. Though in CoE with its finite resources, who's going to be leaving things lying around? It's not like most MMO's where you can just go hit a few ore nodes and make another half dozen swords. I think people will be a bit more careful with their items.
lunawisp was my peacebringer in City of Heroes. She lives on, in memory, as my gaming id
New games are going this route, I know Star Citizen is, they are building a very robust bounty system to combat griefing without taking away player fun or creating artificial barriers with hard-coded mechanics.
I come from a hardcore PvP background, ever since Tribes Starsiege, so I know how many jerks are out there but I wont waste my time telling you they are only a small part of our community.
Most of us want meaning to our battles, not mindless ganking, and I think a healthy, robust bounty system along side a comprehensive resource node mechanic will keep everyone busy.
CoE hearkens back to the coin-op arcade model where, for $30, players buy a Spark of Life
So...nothing like coin-op arcade models.
>.> Playing Tekken or SF in arcade stay on for being able to take on 2 hours worth of opponents by not dying. Play well and knock out my attackers in CoE staying alive 14 months ish. #ForeverYoung.
Except in Street Fighter or Tekken you actually HAD to fight people and you didn't have to pay more money for defeating other players who claimed "I wasn't ready".
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
After watching the videos I think they are going for the idea of letting you be a villain. I know some people get off on the idea of being a bad guy, and if their system works it should produce just that. You need the occasional depraved highway robber and robber baron. What I don't like is when everyone not flying your guild flag is a wasteland mutant thirsting for blood. I think they are aiming for something better than EVE or one of the other human caterpillar experiment games.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Comments
Safer areas and Hobbies could be found in other games, that's not what you are saying though is it?
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
What this feature tells me is that in CoE, we finally have a group of developers that finally get it. The whole point of responsible PvP in MMORPGs is "meaningful consequences." MMORPGs are not platform FPS, MOBA, or DOTA games. To attempt to translate PvP to MMORPGs as it is implemented in those genres is to develop a faulty MMORPG because in those genres death means nothing. They are pure platform PvP games, and as such, their whole existence is based on death counts that ultimately render death inconsequential and irrelevant.
PvP as it is being implement in CoE is done to neither encourage or discourage PvP, but to simply instill a sense of realism by ensuring that those that engage in PvP unnecessarily will face consequences for their actions. Meaningful consequences, with a progressive discipline system, is what is currently missing in the bevy of failed OWPvP MMORPGs on the market. Without it these games become nothing more than "gankfest" that satisfy no one but a very small minority of the MMORPG gaming demographic. This only serves to drive players away from the game instead of growing its player base.
The developers of CoE aren't telling you you can't PvP, because you obviously can to your hearts content. What they are telling you is that there will be consequences if you choose to do so irresponsibly. Any argument pro or con this PvP mechanic will only serve to highlight the extent and extreme by which the person arguing is pro or con OWPvP. If you are in the middle you are more apt to see the feature for what it is, and for what it aspires to accomplish. Personally, I applaud the developers of CoE for finally thinking outside the box and understanding that "meaningful consequences" is what separates PvP in platform FPS and MOBA style games, and PvP in an OWPvP MMORPG. Plainly put, if you are a blatant and unapologetic "griefer," this game will not be for you. For those interested in meaningful and responsible PvP, however, CoE appears to have found a winning recipe.
Major kudos go out to Soulbound studios for at least bringing up a concept that challenges the failed and accepted norm in the implementation of PvP in OWPvP MMORPGs.
So...nothing like coin-op arcade models.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There will also be negative consequences for some types of players as a result of all that. I can even imagine history repeating what happened in Tibia 16-17 years ago. The game had open world pvp, full inventory loot drop with a small chance of dropping one or two equipped items, and extremely harsh penalties for dying. People could access a bank to store items and gold only in one location in a capital city. Gold was physical, meaning it was carried around in inventory and dropped on the ground if player character got killed.
A guild called Mercenarys occupied a key island and established a kind of tyranny on anyone who wanted to visit the island to hunt in a lucrative dungeon there. It was one of the best dungeons in the game in terms of getting loot and experience points for mid-level player characters. Other people had to pay gold to the guild to be allowed to hunt in the dungeon. They always had a lot of guild members because for many people it was kind of fashionable to be in that guild due to all the power the guild had by keeping control of the island. They achieved self-sufficiency from the rest of the world by having a very firm control of the island and keeping all their essential items and gold there. Other guilds didn't risk having serious wars or conflicts with them because it would have been costly due to harsh death penalties. Nobody dared to sneak in and try to steal any of their items because of the fear of harsh death penalties. Nobody declined to pay the taxes. Their organised enemies were kill-on-sight on the island and small groups or solo adventurers were easy victims if they declined to follow the rules set up by the guild.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
A guild controlling access to a dungeon would be a good thing in CoE. There won't be any developer created dungeons in CoE and there will be no specific areas for specific levels. But a guild ruling a certain area and charging tax to anyone entering it and players trying to avoid that, that is the real content of CoE.
My worry is that solo and lone wolf players and small groups may not be too happy there if different clans and guilds occupy all the places with relevant finite resources or all the decent hunting grounds. People may be forced to join specific player guilds or clans to progress in their virtual CoE life. Someone who wants to become a hunter may have to join a clan controlling a forest with all the most interesting animals. Another player who wants to be a miner or blacksmith could be forced to join a guild controlling a mine with ore. Well, we'll see how it plays if the game launches succesfully.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
smart NPCs like ones that are curious and pick up stuff would be badass TBH
couple of weeks is 2-3, split that is 17.5 days. That is 420 hours. That is 168 'countable deaths'
Rank Unknown: 336 days lost
Rank Notable: 420 lost
Rank Prominent: 670 days lost
Get CoEducated
>.> Playing Tekken or SF in arcade stay on for being able to take on 2 hours worth of opponents by not dying. Play well and knock out my attackers in CoE staying alive 14 months ish. #ForeverYoung.
I come from a hardcore PvP background, ever since Tribes Starsiege, so I know how many jerks are out there but I wont waste my time telling you they are only a small part of our community.
Most of us want meaning to our battles, not mindless ganking, and I think a healthy, robust bounty system along side a comprehensive resource node mechanic will keep everyone busy.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯