Actually if it is made like an addon then it should be subject to copyright laws. If it is made like a separate program that reads and gives commands then it is free. You can't piggyback on someone elses work and claim ownership then begin to sell that product. If it was a free program then there isn't much blizzard should be able to do about it. But if they are selling it and its directly linked to their programs then they have infringed copyright laws. They advertise on their front page it is a bot for WOW and they are selling it. They are clearly in copyright infringement. You cannot just put another product on the front of your website then sell items.
Actually, Fil, that isn't quite how it works. If it isn't their product and it doesn't use any assets from their product, then there is no copyright infringement. Its like all the third parties selling IPhone cases, IPhone holders for your car, etc... Guess what, they don't need permission from Apple to make a case that fits the IPhone. Its the same thing. If they have a companion product and it doesn't take any of the assets of the original product, then there is no copyright violation... What they are arguing isn't a question of copyright, because copyright isn't really relevant.
Whether it should be legal to write and sell cheat software for someone else's games is a political question that should be answered by politicians passing a law either explicitly banning it and providing penalties, or else explicitly allowing it and saying that previous laws shall not be construed as banning it. Such a clear case of a bot developer writing cheat software to attack someone else's games should not be left as a legal gray area for judges to try to apply decades old laws that predate the existence of computer games.
And to that I say, ban it, at least for online games. Online game publishers like Blizzard are trying to provide a service to their customers, and cheat programs (including but not limited to bots) that allow other players to cheat can wreck the experience of legitimate, paying players who are their intended customers.
The problem is that there is a grey area... If you are writing a trainer or something that interacts with their game or modify their code, then they have a legal standing(imo)... But what if I use something that reads the graphics data for a specific pixel area on my screen and sends specific key combos depending on what color it is... That does not interact with their code in any way and is completely separate from their software... While that may change the game experience other people are having and may be detrimental to the game experience, they don't have much in the way of legal grounds to condemn it... Any more than they have grounds to condemn me sitting one of those perpetual motion birds next to my keyboard to keep spamming the number 3 for the next couple of days... Or its like in FF3 when you have the loop in the river and if you set the cursor to memory and taped down the right arrow and the "A" button you could go afk and come back in a day or so and all your chars would be lvl 99... Is it cheap? Undoubtedly... Is it cheating? You could definitely make that argument... But in terms of legality, there isn't much you can do about that kind of thing.
There will always be gray areas, but well-written laws can make them much smaller. Selling programs whose only reason to exist is to help you cheat at online games with no plausible pretense that using the program is anything other than cheating should not be a gray area.
I think #1 is the important question here. As for banning users in violation of the EULA -- specifically the paragraphs dealing with botting and / or cheating -- Blizzard certainly should reserve the right to ban without notice. After all, as a player, you do have the right to decline the agreement. When it comes to financial damages, however, I'm not sure how Blizzard is going to prove that one. To use Honorbuddy, you have to be subscribed. The only losses Blizzard would incur as a result of the software's existence is a result of subscription loss. That is a direct result of Blizzard's own actions. I suppose they could take the route that the unfair advantage given by Honorbuddy caused a loss in revenue from players that were not in violation of the EULA, but even that might be a hard sale. It should be interesting to watch this play out whatever happens.
<snip> Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.
Why? Would it be OK for Blizzard to ban people that is.
The answer matters. For you will be setting a precedent. If you use Windows and decide to use some software that MS has decided to "ban" will it be OK for MS to shut you down? Or a company using some non-approved business software?
Well you are technically in Blizzard's house when you play the game. They get to make the rules. You can only play online on their servers. With MS you can use it offline.
Also if they tell you upfront in the rules it is not allowed you are warned and thus you assume the risk of using those programs. If MS warned you that if you are caught with X on your computer they will ban you...wait they do when they check for piracy, but anyway if you are pre-warned that if you use the product and it is something that is monitored by the host then anytime you go online and use their resources you have to use their rules.
It is no different than if I came to your house. While I am inside I have to follow your rules.
First MS was just an example. Second Windows does a check when you boot up - increasing common for software to require an online connection. Third who said anything about piracy. But are you saying it would be OK for Ms to declare X a non-program. Or anyone else?
And if you are not careful any precedent set could even extend to other companies. Ford deciding that to use brand X fuel and if you don't their warranty is null and void. Stupid example maybe but where does it stop?
Hence my question: why?
If company a that makes Finance and HR software - and lots of companies make suites - decides that it considers other companies HR software "dodgy"and not as "robust" as their HR programs is it OK for them to make their software inoperative if it detects the other companies software?
And remember bot is just "some software" that does "a repetitive task" - robotic!
And Blizzard don't help themselves either because some "bots" - as in popular add-ons - they do nothing about. And yet all of the add-ons are nothing more than bots that makes raids or quests or crafting easier.
Your examples are all horrible. None are the same as WoW in the fact that you can not play WoW unless you are on their servers. Servers you get to access by agreeing to obey their rules. Now if you take your Ford and go race it in a Speedway...guess what their are rules for what tires, parts, and fuel you can use. If you do not you are kicked out. The fact is you are in their house they have the right to kick you out if you do not follow the rules you supposedly accepted when you came in.
If this rules in favor of the bot-maker than I most likely will stop playing MMOs all together. There already is a ruling in the EU that virtual goods are owned by the player and not the company that holds the servers and that the owner of the virtual goods is allowed to sell them for real money (yeah, goldselling is legal according to EU court). If botting will become legal as well then in the EU the old-school legit players have certainly lost
Or Blizzard can just go on and ban botters, which would be a reasonable measure.
I'm not promoting botting or anything and i see that they have an interest in protecting their game. But they just can't go around and bully everyone to stop doing this and selling that or file copyright claims whenever somebody's fart smells like anything Warcraft. I for one am glad whenever a countrie's court tells these mega companies that it doesn't work like that.
Botters ruin a game for non-botters. Just take a little side trip to the Diablo 3 or DiabloFans forums.
I enjoyed ESO during beta, but once the game launched, the botters took over. I left the game after a week or so of battling the botters for quest kills and resources and just really have never gotten back in to it. Botters ruined that game for me and my interest in ESO has never recovered.
Blizzard does ban botters, when it can identify them. But HonorBuddy has a shut down protocol to prevent Blizzard from identifying botters. Making a sweeping statement like "Blizzard can just go on and ban botters" makes it sound like they make no effort or have never done so. A lawsuit like this, if anything, is a sign of Blizzard's frustration with botters and their inability to really shut them down. Lawsuits are always risky because the outcome is up from grabs.
If botting becomes legal and the normal way to play a game, what becomes the reason to play? How does that change the nature of the games created? Imagine a raid in which everyone groups up, turns their bots on and then gets up and does something else. Today's bots may not be able to bring that off, but if botting becomes legal, this absolutely will happen.
I'm not really sure how bots are bade, but I have done some Windows API programming. It seems to me that you could send keystrokes to a certain window without decompiling or analyzing Blizzards application. I think the only gray area would come with actual retrieval of data from the application so you can analyze when to execute certain things and when. I don't see how Blizzard would have the right to stop a bot program that uses only the Windows API or an Autohotkey type of application. I would guess that anything that retrieves data from Blizzards application that is not through some type of sanctioned add on is illegal and should be banned. Likewise any modification of the application itself would be illegal I would think.
I think this is one of those things that is on the user base. They have to decide if a game is not enjoyable to the extent you want to automate the experience then maybe it's not a game you should be playing.
Bots suck but actually making it a crime to code them seems a bit too far. They should pay royalty if they sell them though.
And maybe the problem is partly due to how MMO mechanics work, the predictable AI of mobs and the need to grind boring stuff is the main reason people use bots. Increase the fun factor and make combat more unpredictable and a lot of people who bot wouldn't bother.
MMO mechanics are a bit too dependant on grinding gold as well with opens up for goldseller, it is rarely that fun to grind up a million gold in any MMO. A bit more focus on making the playing experience more fun and less grindy would seriously hurt goldsellers and botters.
It is of course easier to just sue people but changing the mechanics so botting really isn't that useful by removing the more boring parts would earn more money in the long run.
I hope Blizzard wins because if they don't it sets a dangerous precedent. What company is going to invest tons of money if it's legal for another company to a)make money off of the hard work and money the gaming company poured into their product (this is shit tons of money folks), and b)irritate and anger current and potential customers who may decide not to play and purchase the game because of it?
MMO games take a ton of time and money to make. We're already seeing companies getting out of the PC gaming market and into mobile games and console games because it's so hard to be profitable. What company would continue to take such a huge risk if the knew bots could just take over if they ported the game to the EU? And the EU is such a huge market, not to mention most gaming companies have servers in Germany, so they can't just ignore that market. For Western gaming companies, either they publish the game in the EU or they don't make it at all. We'd just have crappy Asian ports to rely on, that's it. Do you folks want that?
If you want awesome products - not just games but other non-gaming products as well - big companies need to feel like it's a worthwhile investment to make those awesome products. They need these sorts of protections, or they'll invest money elsewhere, or just die out altogether.
The fundamental legal question is much simpler: can a company profit from producing a product that uses or relies on the copyrighted material of another company without compensation?
The well established answer is no.
The follow-up question is can a company (Blizzard) be forced to allow another company to produce products for profit based on their copyrighted material if they are compensated, or made to make a deal for the same?
The answer is also no.
So all of this BS about TOS and EULAs and such are really just window dressing or a side show to a straight up copyright infringement case.
I hope Blizzard wins because if they don't it sets a dangerous precedent. What company is going to invest tons of money if it's legal for another company to a)make money off of the hard work and money the gaming company poured into their product (this is shit tons of money folks), and b)irritate and anger current and potential customers who may decide not to play and purchase the game because of it?
MMO games take a ton of time and money to make. We're already seeing companies getting out of the PC gaming market and into mobile games and console games because it's so hard to be profitable. What company would continue to take such a huge risk if the knew bots could just take over if they ported the game to the EU? And the EU is such a huge market, not to mention most gaming companies have servers in Germany, so they can't just ignore that market. For Western gaming companies, either they publish the game in the EU or they don't make it at all. We'd just have crappy Asian ports to rely on, that's it. Do you folks want that?
If you want awesome products - not just games but other non-gaming products as well - big companies need to feel like it's a worthwhile investment to make those awesome products. They need these sorts of protections, or they'll invest money elsewhere, or just die out altogether.
I don't really consider these games to be awesome, but that is just my opinion. I don't play mobile games, but I don't think it's that MMOs are not profitable that could cause them to stop being made. It's that mobile devices and non time consuming games are popular now. It's cheaper to write a a crappy mobile game that you jump into and out of quickly and make a large profit off of it. Things have been more and more about quick fun that doesn't interrupt life.
Bots suck but actually making it a crime to code them seems a bit too far. They should pay royalty if they sell them though.
And maybe the problem is partly due to how MMO mechanics work, the predictable AI of mobs and the need to grind boring stuff is the main reason people use bots. Increase the fun factor and make combat more unpredictable and a lot of people who bot wouldn't bother.
MMO mechanics are a bit too dependant on grinding gold as well with opens up for goldseller, it is rarely that fun to grind up a million gold in any MMO. A bit more focus on making the playing experience more fun and less grindy would seriously hurt goldsellers and botters.
It is of course easier to just sue people but changing the mechanics so botting really isn't that useful by removing the more boring parts would earn more money in the long run.
i agree with you not just when it comes to economy but also game play, for example rewards come from completing dungeons and events rather than grinding mobs, there are games with this problem like: champion system in eso or champion farming in gw2 or level or xp grind in black desert,, all of those games promote grinding in one way or another. i do not consider playing with your friends or guild mates or other people in order to kill world boss a mindless grind, games should be like that with no mindless mob grind for any reason.
The fundamental legal question is much simpler: can a company profit from producing a product that uses or relies on the copyrighted material of another company without compensation?
The well established answer is no.
The follow-up question is can a company (Blizzard) be forced to allow another company to produce products for profit based on their copyrighted material if they are compensated, or made to make a deal for the same?
The answer is also no.
So all of this BS about TOS and EULAs and such are really just window dressing or a side show to a straight up copyright infringement case.
I have to completely disagree with your statements. Blizzard is already a large company and probably cuts a lot of the smaller QoL projects that would only benefit a small minority of their player population. If someone else wants to spend the time to create something and make a bit of profit from it, then they should be able to. Blizzard has the right to ban users that use said product, but they don't have any rights to steal the efforts of others, which is what they are trying to do through the courts.
The fundamental legal question is much simpler: can a company profit from producing a product that uses or relies on the copyrighted material of another company without compensation?
The well established answer is no.
The follow-up question is can a company (Blizzard) be forced to allow another company to produce products for profit based on their copyrighted material if they are compensated, or made to make a deal for the same?
The answer is also no.
So all of this BS about TOS and EULAs and such are really just window dressing or a side show to a straight up copyright infringement case.
I have to completely disagree with your statements. Blizzard is already a large company and probably cuts a lot of the smaller QoL projects that would only benefit a small minority of their player population. If someone else wants to spend the time to create something and make a bit of profit from it, then they should be able to. Blizzard has the right to ban users that use said product, but they don't have any rights to steal the efforts of others, which is what they are trying to do through the courts.
Disagree all you want, you are wrong on the law.
Other people were writing 3rd party programs, for use in a copyrighted product (WoW) and selling them for profit. Without a license agreement from Blizzard to do that, and not paying them. (And WoW is not an operating system.)
Their product would not work, but for the illegal exploitation of a copyrighted product.
<snip> Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.
Why? Would it be OK for Blizzard to ban people that is.
The answer matters. For you will be setting a precedent. If you use Windows and decide to use some software that MS has decided to "ban" will it be OK for MS to shut you down? Or a company using some non-approved business software?
Technically? Yes.
As to the the 'Why', it's simple. They provide you with service, much like, say, a club or restaurant provides you with a service. If you misbehave and disturb other patrons in the restaurant, or get too drunk in a club they will throw you out, no matter how much you spent on food / drinks / entry fee. That's commonly accepted and even expected by general public.
Now your Windows example is more interesting, but you also need to look at the severity of the action. Someone using unlicensed software in isolated environment like your own PC at home has no effect on other users. Second of all, the notoriety of the action would mean a large part of customers would be 'banned'. meaning significant loss of market share, which makes it less viable from business PoV.
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Your examples are all horrible. None are the same as WoW in the fact that you can not play WoW unless you are on their servers. Servers you get to access by agreeing to obey their rules. Now if you take your Ford and go race it in a Speedway...guess what their are rules for what tires, parts, and fuel you can use. If you do not you are kicked out. The fact is you are in their house they have the right to kick you out if you do not follow the rules you supposedly accepted when you came in.
Botters ruin a game for non-botters. Just take a little side trip to the Diablo 3 or DiabloFans forums.
I enjoyed ESO during beta, but once the game launched, the botters took over. I left the game after a week or so of battling the botters for quest kills and resources and just really have never gotten back in to it. Botters ruined that game for me and my interest in ESO has never recovered.
Blizzard does ban botters, when it can identify them. But HonorBuddy has a shut down protocol to prevent Blizzard from identifying botters. Making a sweeping statement like "Blizzard can just go on and ban botters" makes it sound like they make no effort or have never done so. A lawsuit like this, if anything, is a sign of Blizzard's frustration with botters and their inability to really shut them down. Lawsuits are always risky because the outcome is up from grabs.
If botting becomes legal and the normal way to play a game, what becomes the reason to play? How does that change the nature of the games created? Imagine a raid in which everyone groups up, turns their bots on and then gets up and does something else. Today's bots may not be able to bring that off, but if botting becomes legal, this absolutely will happen.
MMOs will essentially be dead.
I think this is one of those things that is on the user base. They have to decide if a game is not enjoyable to the extent you want to automate the experience then maybe it's not a game you should be playing.
And maybe the problem is partly due to how MMO mechanics work, the predictable AI of mobs and the need to grind boring stuff is the main reason people use bots. Increase the fun factor and make combat more unpredictable and a lot of people who bot wouldn't bother.
MMO mechanics are a bit too dependant on grinding gold as well with opens up for goldseller, it is rarely that fun to grind up a million gold in any MMO. A bit more focus on making the playing experience more fun and less grindy would seriously hurt goldsellers and botters.
It is of course easier to just sue people but changing the mechanics so botting really isn't that useful by removing the more boring parts would earn more money in the long run.
MMO games take a ton of time and money to make. We're already seeing companies getting out of the PC gaming market and into mobile games and console games because it's so hard to be profitable. What company would continue to take such a huge risk if the knew bots could just take over if they ported the game to the EU? And the EU is such a huge market, not to mention most gaming companies have servers in Germany, so they can't just ignore that market. For Western gaming companies, either they publish the game in the EU or they don't make it at all. We'd just have crappy Asian ports to rely on, that's it. Do you folks want that?
If you want awesome products - not just games but other non-gaming products as well - big companies need to feel like it's a worthwhile investment to make those awesome products. They need these sorts of protections, or they'll invest money elsewhere, or just die out altogether.
The well established answer is no.
The follow-up question is can a company (Blizzard) be forced to allow another company to produce products for profit based on their copyrighted material if they are compensated, or made to make a deal for the same?
The answer is also no.
So all of this BS about TOS and EULAs and such are really just window dressing or a side show to a straight up copyright infringement case.
i do not consider playing with your friends or guild mates or other people in order to kill world boss a mindless grind, games should be like that with no mindless mob grind for any reason.
I have to completely disagree with your statements. Blizzard is already a large company and probably cuts a lot of the smaller QoL projects that would only benefit a small minority of their player population. If someone else wants to spend the time to create something and make a bit of profit from it, then they should be able to. Blizzard has the right to ban users that use said product, but they don't have any rights to steal the efforts of others, which is what they are trying to do through the courts.
Other people were writing 3rd party programs, for use in a copyrighted product (WoW) and selling them for profit. Without a license agreement from Blizzard to do that, and not paying them. (And WoW is not an operating system.)
Their product would not work, but for the illegal exploitation of a copyrighted product.
And that is the bottom line.
As to the the 'Why', it's simple. They provide you with service, much like, say, a club or restaurant provides you with a service. If you misbehave and disturb other patrons in the restaurant, or get too drunk in a club they will throw you out, no matter how much you spent on food / drinks / entry fee. That's commonly accepted and even expected by general public.
Now your Windows example is more interesting, but you also need to look at the severity of the action. Someone using unlicensed software in isolated environment like your own PC at home has no effect on other users. Second of all, the notoriety of the action would mean a large part of customers would be 'banned'. meaning significant loss of market share, which makes it less viable from business PoV.