Standing still and mashing buttons has always been a huge turn off for me when it comes to MMORPGs...
What do you want to be able to eat and piss in a bottle while playing? Give me a break.. EQ was a fun game but what kept me from trying it for several years of friends begging me was the fact that it looked like you stood there, watching damage numbers float, then rinse and repeat. It looked boring. Later I played it finally after getting into Vanguard but that was much later... still enjoyed it but always think that having to move around while fighting is a good idea..
In EQ while dungeon crawling you have to stay still while you fight mobs so that you don't attract any adds, and lets face it, its boring and outdated compared to newer games.
If a game had both.. like there was a reason to be still sometimes, that could be fun, but having nothing but that for hours was a waste of your life whether you will admit it or not. Don't mean to talk trash but really some people lived behind there computers for years while watching floating numbers and spamming buttons.
It seems like you just need to pick the right class for the play style you want. Sounds like you want to be a puller. Tag team pulling raid type monsters can require a lot of strategy and movement.
I recommend a monk....but also, if you just tried EQ after Vanguard was released you missed playing it before it got dumbed-down unfortunately. Also, the playstyle in VG was, generally, similar to EQ with some added bells and whistles. There is definitely a grey area of overlap there. If you enojyed VG you probably would have enjoyed EQ in a different scenario.
If you are going to try Pantheon give the monk a shot.
Overall, when compared to other games, EQ looked boring from an outside perspective.
I understand that perspective if you didn't see it until very late.
When I first saw EQ, that a friend of mine was playing, there had never been anything like it. A fully immersive graphical online RPG that you could play in first person view with thousands of others players.
I remember thinking it was revolutionary and that it was what I had been waiting for (and knew was coming eventually) for many years prior.
But that is understandable if you saw it later because the graphics didn't stand up to later games. And, lets face it, when just viewing a game over someones shoulder the graphics are a pretty big part of the first impression.
It's kind of funny how, at this point, graphics are very low on my list of priorities.
Overall, when compared to other games, EQ looked boring from an outside perspective.
Any interest that I had was quickly dismissed when I found out the time that it would take to explore something. Of course, now that I know better, I think EQ was totally awesome!!!! And MMORPGs are extremely fun and I missed out on some good times..
Completely agree. In fact, you can almost always spot someone who never played EQ when they start bashing things like autoattack and tab targeting. @Hawkaya399 did a great job in explaining just how much depth and skill is involved in a GOOD tab target system, and I expect Pantheon to have all of that and much more.
Standing still and mashing buttons has always been a huge turn off for me when it comes to MMORPGs...
What do you want to be able to eat and piss in a bottle while playing? Give me a break.. EQ was a fun game but what kept me from trying it for several years of friends begging me was the fact that it looked like you stood there, watching damage numbers float, then rinse and repeat. It looked boring. Later I played it finally after getting into Vanguard but that was much later... still enjoyed it but always think that having to move around while fighting is a good idea..
In EQ while dungeon crawling you have to stay still while you fight mobs so that you don't attract any adds, and lets face it, its boring and outdated compared to newer games.
If a game had both.. like there was a reason to be still sometimes, that could be fun, but having nothing but that for hours was a waste of your life whether you will admit it or not. Don't mean to talk trash but really some people lived behind there computers for years while watching floating numbers and spamming buttons.
I read this and the only thing I can think is, I wonder if this guy also believe that playing a game of pen and paper D&D is simply writing on a piece of paper, and sitting on a chair, boooring.
If you just look at your character standing there taking hits swinging his weapon automatically, and that's as far as you're willing to analyze whats going on in combat... sure.. EQ was the most boring MMO ever created.
That is not, however, what was going on, you were constantly balancing meta-game variables, how many mobs to pull, how to properly cc them, don't let that wizard cast make sure to bash/stun it, how long before respawn in this area, do we have enough dps to progress further before repops, do we need to reposition, are there roamers coming, how much mana does the healer have, do we need a break?
Everquest combat may have been boring, if you simply look at the surface, and not the meta-game beneath it all. The more skill your group had at playing the meta-game, the further/faster you could progress, the harder challenges you could tackle. The difference between a noob and a pro at everquest was so dramatic, that's what made me love it the most. That skill in Everquest did not revolve around my RL physical capabilities, but rather my mental prowess, and experience and knowledge of game mechanics.
Question is, do you want NBA jam, or chess in your MMO combat system. I think the target audience wants chess.
Well i have said for a long time that these games should have a action and reaction design to combat.However some areas are just bad and often look silly.
"DODGE" is one area that makes me cringe when i see how it is done.Usually it is not a dodge but more so a somersault and imo looks retarded.
However i feel players should have options to avoid or be interrupted,it is just a matter of how the game does it.IMO dodging is a not a good idea outside of formula's because you could in essence dodge every single attack and then how would you dodge magic avoidance?
I was quite happy with a design of depth,utilizing various properties such as elements and types of damage and equipping yourself to best avoid or defend that.
A good option for interaction is to say for example mobs utilize effects that enhance damage,it is up to the player to react by removing those aspects to reduce the damage taken.Even with healing there should be a threshold to where and how aggro changes from player to player,meaning you have to make wise decisions.Even just timing should be a factor,if you time your heal at the wrong time perhaps a "zombie" effect might cause your heal; to do damage rather than heal and any other ideas like that.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't know what you guys are all doom and gloom about, it's the same basic, repetitive, macro combat mmorpg's have had for the past fifteen years. Could you actually imagine Brad doing anything different than EQ or VG? Don't worry guys, there wont be anything new or innovative with Pantheon's combat, you can all rest easy my sweet princesses.
Ideal for me would be AoC type of combat but without combos what-so-ever. So, collision detection + AoE hits for melee = realistic melee combat + targeting available for ranged. Combos as in AoC is nonsense, can do without. This would be a nice hybrid between tab-target and action combat, imo, and perfect for me.
Agreed, AoCs idea of collision detection for melee and tab targetting for ranged was awesome and a great step forward. The combo system was a bad compromize because the original idea was far more complex and the alpha testers didn't like it so they made if half way with the weird shields and simple but rather pointless combos.
Standing still and mashing buttons has always been a huge turn off for me when it comes to MMORPGs...
What do you want to be able to eat and piss in a bottle while playing? Give me a break.. EQ was a fun game but what kept me from trying it for several years of friends begging me was the fact that it looked like you stood there, watching damage numbers float, then rinse and repeat. It looked boring. Later I played it finally after getting into Vanguard but that was much later... still enjoyed it but always think that having to move around while fighting is a good idea..
In EQ while dungeon crawling you have to stay still while you fight mobs so that you don't attract any adds, and lets face it, its boring and outdated compared to newer games.
If a game had both.. like there was a reason to be still sometimes, that could be fun, but having nothing but that for hours was a waste of your life whether you will admit it or not. Don't mean to talk trash but really some people lived behind there computers for years while watching floating numbers and spamming buttons.
I read this and the only thing I can think is, I wonder if this guy also believe that playing a game of pen and paper D&D is simply writing on a piece of paper, and sitting on a chair, boooring.
If you just look at your character standing there taking hits swinging his weapon automatically, and that's as far as you're willing to analyze whats going on in combat... sure.. EQ was the most boring MMO ever created.
That is not, however, what was going on, you were constantly balancing meta-game variables, how many mobs to pull, how to properly cc them, don't let that wizard cast make sure to bash/stun it, how long before respawn in this area, do we have enough dps to progress further before repops, do we need to reposition, are there roamers coming, how much mana does the healer have, do we need a break?
Everquest combat may have been boring, if you simply look at the surface, and not the meta-game beneath it all. The more skill your group had at playing the meta-game, the further/faster you could progress, the harder challenges you could tackle. The difference between a noob and a pro at everquest was so dramatic, that's what made me love it the most. That skill in Everquest did not revolve around my RL physical capabilities, but rather my mental prowess, and experience and knowledge of game mechanics.
Question is, do you want NBA jam, or chess in your MMO combat system. I think the target audience wants chess.
No Ive always though highly of tabletop RPGs.. so long as the GM and players are fun..
I already said that I appreciated EQ and enjoyed it, but it looked boring when people would show it to me and try to get me to play it before that.
The meta-game variable you speak of are quite easy to learn and although I was good at the game, I would get bored after awhile and start to mess up.. the PVP kept me on my toes though. Sorry that I felt the PVE was boring.. but going deep down in a dungeon was fun..
Chess? EQ is nothing like chess...
To be honest, Im a pretty big EQ fan, probably more than most people, but many games have come out since then..
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
I like tab targeting, but I also like the option to auto target nearest enemy when in proximity or when pressing an attack ability. I also hope to see smart healing. If no mob is targeted, it heals myself automatically. If a mob is targeted, it heals the mobs target. This allows for more than just staring at health bars as a healer.
I also want to point out that EQ's combat was slow enough that I could chat during combat, not just during the downtime. I want that same feature in Pantheon. This statement in the FAQ about more active combat has me worried on that front. Depending on how they implement this feature, it could make or break the game for me. I spend far too much time in combat for most MMOs and most likely this one as well, to tolerate that play style.
Not sure why people are pushing for action combat...i mean those type of MMOs are a dime a dozen these days, it's basically the new "trend". I have played those type of games and don't care for them. The reason im following this game is because it IS the old/slow style of gameplay i miss with some small modern enhancements.
If you came to this game hoping it wil be all action-y and whatnot...just dont bother. Please let those of us who enjoyed the older tab target, slower paced, more time consuming and difficult MMOs have at least ONE game. I mean this is already and indie game that knows it so i dont think they need to appeal to a bunch of MMO hoppers by changing it into something like every other game out there right now.
The issue with a lot of the more recent games is having to cater for the unfortunates: Those known as....."The Keyboardless" This lesser cast, who have in the past satisfied themselves with guiding a plumber down a drainpipe, have now tried to rise above their station into real games - but have not had the correct hardware to do this properly.
Consequently we see this plethora of reduced input games, where pressing 3 or 4 keys and somersaulting round the place is now deemed as in depth game play.
Pah I say! Away with you back to your drainpipe jumping!
..............
Seriously, it would be good to have some variation away from the recent raft of twitch roller/dodgers.
Ah, it's called console gaming.
If they decided to target consoles then we are in serious trouble.
Please no action combat.... I have been playing guild wars 2 again after quiting a few months after its release because a friend still plays it, and I remembered why I did not like it..action combat crap.. black desert is even worse.... EQ/Vanguard style please... I dont wanna mash buttons upon buttons..I have a PS4 and XBOX one that hasnt been turned on in months if I feel the need to mash/play anything.
BDO combat is great! Maybe some classes are better than others... but right now we are seeing BDO as our strongest chapter (guild wise) and most love it's combat style.
That said my biggest concern is that we have something more like Wildstar where if you sneeze you are likely to die in a raid. I have NO desire to have to watch the screen and be pressing buttons/moving "frenetically" (as the dumb ass Wildstar developers called it). There's a reason Wildstar has failed in spite of the rest of the game being pretty great.
That said my biggest concern is that we have something more like Wildstar where if you sneeze you are likely to die in a raid. I have NO desire to have to watch the screen and be pressing buttons/moving "frenetically" (as the dumb ass Wildstar developers called it). There's a reason Wildstar has failed in spite of the rest of the game being pretty great.
The failure in Wildstars combat was not the action combat by itself IMO. For starters they "telegraphed" every single thing which turns the combat into a "stare at the ground" disco dance for every PvP and Raid encounter ever. To top it off they focused completely on that one gimmick to increase difficulty making encounters more of an obstacle course than an epic fight with an enemy.
Action combat doesnt need to be like Wildstar, or BDO, or any of the other MMO's out there that have done it. It can be slow and strategic, based on distance, positioning, timing, and knowing when to defend vs attack. Emphasis on defense since not a single MMO has done it besides the occasional interrupt, or highly simplified "tell" with a big wind up and flashy warning. Primarily, not this button mashing none-sense every MMO has had until now.
How is this thread still active? Its gonna be oldschool tab target with a dash of occasional "move it". Not in a twitch way though. Probably more like X mob is casting sure death in 3 seconds move or counter the spell. Action combat junkies could die of old age in 3 seconds. Anyways, Ive seen no sign that it would be anything different.
Well, never played EQ, but Vanguard would have fit to the description in the OP as well.
Some abilities are reactive. Most important in Vanguard was scoring a critical hit. That was the only way to actually do dps, because the critical hit chains have been the ones with the real damage.
There have also been some parry etc abilites, too, but as far as I remember, they've been mostly underpowered. My Dread Knight for example had an ability Retaliate that was utterly and completely useless because the damage was mediocre for the endurance spent.
Comments
When I first saw EQ, that a friend of mine was playing, there had never been anything like it. A fully immersive graphical online RPG that you could play in first person view with thousands of others players.
I remember thinking it was revolutionary and that it was what I had been waiting for (and knew was coming eventually) for many years prior.
But that is understandable if you saw it later because the graphics didn't stand up to later games. And, lets face it, when just viewing a game over someones shoulder the graphics are a pretty big part of the first impression.
It's kind of funny how, at this point, graphics are very low on my list of priorities.
If you just look at your character standing there taking hits swinging his weapon automatically, and that's as far as you're willing to analyze whats going on in combat... sure.. EQ was the most boring MMO ever created.
That is not, however, what was going on, you were constantly balancing meta-game variables, how many mobs to pull, how to properly cc them, don't let that wizard cast make sure to bash/stun it, how long before respawn in this area, do we have enough dps to progress further before repops, do we need to reposition, are there roamers coming, how much mana does the healer have, do we need a break?
Everquest combat may have been boring, if you simply look at the surface, and not the meta-game beneath it all. The more skill your group had at playing the meta-game, the further/faster you could progress, the harder challenges you could tackle. The difference between a noob and a pro at everquest was so dramatic, that's what made me love it the most. That skill in Everquest did not revolve around my RL physical capabilities, but rather my mental prowess, and experience and knowledge of game mechanics.
Question is, do you want NBA jam, or chess in your MMO combat system. I think the target audience wants chess.
"DODGE" is one area that makes me cringe when i see how it is done.Usually it is not a dodge but more so a somersault and imo looks retarded.
However i feel players should have options to avoid or be interrupted,it is just a matter of how the game does it.IMO dodging is a not a good idea outside of formula's because you could in essence dodge every single attack and then how would you dodge magic avoidance?
I was quite happy with a design of depth,utilizing various properties such as elements and types of damage and equipping yourself to best avoid or defend that.
A good option for interaction is to say for example mobs utilize effects that enhance damage,it is up to the player to react by removing those aspects to reduce the damage taken.Even with healing there should be a threshold to where and how aggro changes from player to player,meaning you have to make wise decisions.Even just timing should be a factor,if you time your heal at the wrong time perhaps a "zombie" effect might cause your heal; to do damage rather than heal and any other ideas like that.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The combo system was a bad compromize because the original idea was far more complex and the alpha testers didn't like it so they made if half way with the weird shields and simple but rather pointless combos.
I already said that I appreciated EQ and enjoyed it, but it looked boring when people would show it to me and try to get me to play it before that.
The meta-game variable you speak of are quite easy to learn and although I was good at the game, I would get bored after awhile and start to mess up.. the PVP kept me on my toes though. Sorry that I felt the PVE was boring.. but going deep down in a dungeon was fun..
Chess? EQ is nothing like chess...
To be honest, Im a pretty big EQ fan, probably more than most people, but many games have come out since then..
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
I like tab targeting, but I also like the option to auto target nearest enemy when in proximity or when pressing an attack ability. I also hope to see smart healing. If no mob is targeted, it heals myself automatically. If a mob is targeted, it heals the mobs target. This allows for more than just staring at health bars as a healer.
I also want to point out that EQ's combat was slow enough that I could chat during combat, not just during the downtime. I want that same feature in Pantheon. This statement in the FAQ about more active combat has me worried on that front. Depending on how they implement this feature, it could make or break the game for me. I spend far too much time in combat for most MMOs and most likely this one as well, to tolerate that play style.
If you came to this game hoping it wil be all action-y and whatnot...just dont bother. Please let those of us who enjoyed the older tab target, slower paced, more time consuming and difficult MMOs have at least ONE game. I mean this is already and indie game that knows it so i dont think they need to appeal to a bunch of MMO hoppers by changing it into something like every other game out there right now.
If they decided to target consoles then we are in serious trouble.
That said my biggest concern is that we have something more like Wildstar where if you sneeze you are likely to die in a raid. I have NO desire to have to watch the screen and be pressing buttons/moving "frenetically" (as the dumb ass Wildstar developers called it). There's a reason Wildstar has failed in spite of the rest of the game being pretty great.
Action combat doesnt need to be like Wildstar, or BDO, or any of the other MMO's out there that have done it. It can be slow and strategic, based on distance, positioning, timing, and knowing when to defend vs attack. Emphasis on defense since not a single MMO has done it besides the occasional interrupt, or highly simplified "tell" with a big wind up and flashy warning. Primarily, not this button mashing none-sense every MMO has had until now.
Some abilities are reactive. Most important in Vanguard was scoring a critical hit. That was the only way to actually do dps, because the critical hit chains have been the ones with the real damage.
There have also been some parry etc abilites, too, but as far as I remember, they've been mostly underpowered. My Dread Knight for example had an ability Retaliate that was utterly and completely useless because the damage was mediocre for the endurance spent.
See: http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/Dread_Knight
Also of course there was a problem with moving around, and placement, against certain raid bosses.