I was really enjoying playing Skyforge as Slayer until they nerfed it's only good ability to the ground and made him terrible in pve.
I agree 100% on pvp balances screwing up pvers more often than the other way around.
There are plenty of calls for PVE balancing as well, especially on the survivability as well as damage output fronts. Because on both sides most people think on FPS levels of balance, rather than that RPG's are balanced around group synergy.
Which means...People coming together to balance short comings in themselves as well as their peers. A tank can take damage but lacks in dealing it fast, a wizard can't take damage but can dish it out, so on and so forth. This creates a need for grouping to tackle challenges (PVP or PVE), FPS balance does the opposite.
Which frankly I've always felt was really silly. So there's this guy who can shoot epic fireballs out of his hands and summon and control horrifying demonic creatures from who knows where but he has no spell in his magical arsenal to protect himself from even mundane weaponry? And the old tank malarkey, somehow this guy can survive those epic fireballs when in reality he's dressed himself up like a fucking baked potato. The sooner the industry stops pigeonholing their games into these same boring tropes the sooner games can become fun again.
Some better mode of combat interdependence has to exist besides the Wizard in a Gown needing the Impervious Magic potato. I also reject the stupid "Everyone is DPS" model.
I would love combat that required that you actually help your allies somehow as the way of showing the greatness that is group.
Imagine being able to actually distract a foes so that an ally can deliver a killing blow, or knocking an enemy to the ground so that your friend with the large weapon can attack more easily. I would like that better than the canned Tank/DPS/Heals cliche.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Sort of like how MMO is used to describe LoL and ARK. He's using the term wrong. He's pointing fingers and laying blame where there isn't one.
It's not developers making games for a certain demographic willing to buy them that ruins your genre. It's not enough people in your demographic showing developers the money so they'll make games for you. Pantheon has that problem. Very militant minded groups within the community want the game a certain way or they'll bail. If the project fails because of that then you have no one to blame but yourselves, certainly not the casuals.
Get on the same page as others in your demographic. Be willing to compromise to the vision of the developer. Unify. Show them the money and stop blaming others for your problem.
Hard pass. I won't be compromising or convincing myself that games are fun when they aren't. I'll leave that for you to do.
Its the logic you subscribed to (more like sold out to) that is going to continue perpetuating failure in this industry. As long as developers keep "compromising" and making safe games that don't represent what the actual fans want, of course they won't do well. Not only will the casuals passing through leave for the next shiny game, but those die hard fans will leave as well. See SWG > SWTOR. See EQ > EQ2. See EQ > VG. Shit, see vanilla WoW > current WoW.
The problem is this tendency to continually move towards the mainstream and away from what made games unique. Like Fevir said in the video, "[they're] not catering to anyone by catering to everyone." "Instead of trying to create unique, great games, they are trying to make not bad games." As such, they are in a world of hurt because that puts them in direct competition with titans like Blizzard who specialize in making the best, most polished "safe games."
Its ok though, "Everything is going great", say the mmo apologists. No one will pay a sub for mmos anymore but its only because "thats is the way things work now" and has nothing to do with the lack of quality in games.
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they already knew they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
I believe we don't need to put a label on people. I tried carrots and hated them, am I an idiot for attempting to expand my culinary diversity? No, I am not I am simply a person that does not like carrots. I believe that assigning titles in ignorance is borderline idiocy and if I were to attempt to convince everyone I know that carrots were terrible, based off my own opinion, I might fall into idiocy but just for trying them? No, that is a very ignorant statement.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
I believe we don't need to put a label on people. I tried carrots and hated them, am I an idiot for attempting to expand my culinary diversity? No, I am not I am simply a person that does not like carrots. I believe that assigning titles in ignorance is borderline idiocy and if I were to attempt to convince everyone I know that carrots were terrible, based off my own opinion, I might fall into idiocy but just for trying them? No, that is a very ignorant statement.
No. An equivalent would be if you bought carrots already knowing you didn't like them, and discovered, lo and behold, you didn't like them. That would make you an idiot.
Talking of ignorance, your post indicates your ignorance of the video this entire thread is predicated on.
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they already knew they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
casual
[kazh-oo-uh l]
2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing:
The term 'casual' in mmorpgs has nothing to do with time played or commitment to the game. Its simply people that want to play the game at a more relaxed pace and don't want to hold rigid raid schedules, min/max every peace of loot, and treat a game like a commitment.
You know what game consisted of 95% casuals? Everquest. Casuals LOVED that game. That game handed nothing to you for little effort.
I think development checklists are having doing "more damage" than any player group is.
MMO checklist: Leveling, gear leveling, Early raid, mid raid, pre end end game raid, end game raid, open world PvPer somewhere, areana PvPer somewhere, suitable rewards for all things.
Instead of doing older style development where you find your core game loop, and taking it where you can.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Any developer that isn't chasing the mainstream dragon has to both be willing to accept a smaller playerbase as well as the smaller revenues that come with it. If both of those conditions are met, then you can color outside the lines.
You'd think Dark Souls is "mainstream" based on how much it's talked about but the series as a whole has sold something like 8-10 million units during it's entire lifetime. Not just a single title, the whole series. Meanwhile, Overwatch cranks out 10 million in a week. And that's the real difference between mainstream and not-mainstream.
Once you start factoring in all the additional barriers that MMO's present vs a multiplatform action-rpg, having 1 million units sold (not retained players) becomes a more appropriate place to set your sights. It's a tall ask no matter what. MMORPG's are expensive to make, take a lot of time, and require some amount of upkeep. If a development studio is willing to do this for not-a-lot of money, more power to them.
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
I believe we don't need to put a label on people. I tried carrots and hated them, am I an idiot for attempting to expand my culinary diversity? No, I am not I am simply a person that does not like carrots. I believe that assigning titles in ignorance is borderline idiocy and if I were to attempt to convince everyone I know that carrots were terrible, based off my own opinion, I might fall into idiocy but just for trying them? No, that is a very ignorant statement.
No. An equivalent would be if you bought carrots already knowing you didn't like them, and discovered, lo and behold, you didn't like them. That would make you an idiot.
Talking of ignorance, your post indicates your ignorance of the video this entire thread is predicated on.
No actually if you read the thread (which you obviously didn't or you would not be ignorant to my original reply) I was one of the first to speak up and I feel my input on the actual topic as well as your ill informed post is spot on.
How can you try a product you don't like? If you are trying something that implies first time, in commonly accepted vernacular. So I go back to my original point in that you should re-think that post and perhaps edit to reflect your thoughts on the matter instead of tying to insult anyone that ever tries anything new.
Also, we all know what assumption means, in this case however we ill keep it to just you.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I don't mean to descend into semantics, but I always thought of casuals as people with limited time, or limited interest in time intensive gameplay; I never thought of them as people who tried a product they didn't like, remembered they didn't like it, and quit. The label for that person is "idiot".
I believe we don't need to put a label on people. I tried carrots and hated them, am I an idiot for attempting to expand my culinary diversity? No, I am not I am simply a person that does not like carrots. I believe that assigning titles in ignorance is borderline idiocy and if I were to attempt to convince everyone I know that carrots were terrible, based off my own opinion, I might fall into idiocy but just for trying them? No, that is a very ignorant statement.
No. An equivalent would be if you bought carrots already knowing you didn't like them, and discovered, lo and behold, you didn't like them. That would make you an idiot.
Talking of ignorance, your post indicates your ignorance of the video this entire thread is predicated on.
No actually if you read the thread (which you obviously didn't or you would not be ignorant to my original reply) I was one of the first to speak up and I feel my input on the actual topic as well as your ill informed post is spot on.
How can you try a product you don't like? If you are trying something that implies first time, in commonly accepted vernacular. So I go back to my original point in that you should re-think that post and perhaps edit to reflect your thoughts on the matter instead of tying to insult anyone that ever tries anything new.
Also, we all know what assumption means, in this case however we ill keep it to just you.
I was responding to the OP; not your contribution to the thread. It is often a sign of ignorance to assume everything revolves around you.
Here's why I can have fun. I don't expect every game to check every box all the time. I love EQ2 and I wish it weren't a progression raiding game at its core, but I deal with it even so. If they make content I like then I pay for it. If not, like the last LotRO expac, I don't.
If some hardcore niche sub-demographic can't get enough people to fund their game then that's too bad, but doesn't mean everything has gone to hell. I feel for them. There are games I want that don't exist. That doesn't mean everything is bad because I don't get what I want.
Well said.. People simply want to ascribe their unhappiness onto the entire genre, as well as those who enjoy it. As if those folks are the source of that blame, rather than their own limited criteria of check marks and hard-line stances.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In the old days such as UO, EQ, WoW, EQ2, and DAoC casuals did well and were fine with what they had but also knew and accepted that not all content was for them. In EQ casuals were fine leveling up main and alt class's and buying the farmed hard to get things. They would partake in the rare shorter raid but usually opted out of raids and accepted they wouldn't be in that top end stuff. They did their epics on occasion for a class even if it took a year. WoW casuals same thing, they would level up and gear the best they could through dungeons and such. They may do the rare Zul'Gurub or AQ20 run for a few boss's and such and maybe if lucky get picked into an MC run for the first couple boss's. They accepted that but still had plenty to do as well. All the other games same thing.
A hardcore may reach max level in a month while a casual spends 6+ months to reach max level. A hardcore player would spend months gearing up in raids while a casual spends a month gearing in dungeons at a slower pace. A casual goes for the top casual level gear while a hardcore is going for the best gear their was. Each had fun and both loved the game. Both played for long lengths of time maybe many months or even years.
Now though the difference is alts are a joke as almost all classes are nearly the same minus different visual's and names to *balance* for pvp on the 1v1 idea. Leveling is a joke because a hardcore can reach max in a day or two while a casual it takes a week. A hardcore gets the best dungeon gear in 2 days while the casual it takes a week. Further their is no exploration or adventure to slow things down instead a very linear line to follow from start to finish. Making an alt as well doesn't give you another fresh experience as well due to same areas and very similar or copied skills.
All this means that what was a game based around a 6 month push per toon is now a 2 week push per toon with very limited replayability.
Who's to blame? Casuals and PvPers.
Remember the old days in EQ or whatever other old game. How often did we remake our same characters again and again trying to get it right the way we wanted before they even got out of the newbie level range? How *HUGE* did the world feel when you ran through just a single city vs how it is today.
PvP'ers kill mmorpg's? WHAT? Have you even played any Korean mmorpg in your 12 years of existance? Do you actually believe what you type? You have 0 clue what is hurting game industry. WoW coexisted with PvP players just fine for a long time. Lineage 2 did and still does, as well as Aion, BDO, Dekaron, Silkroad, etc.
Your mmorpg experince must be close to null to say such atrocity.
Casuals are people who do things in moderation or simply put people who like to do many other things at a same time. Sadly, in the MMO industry these people also want to be the best, have all the lootz, etc, etc for their "casual" participation in these MMO's and those who cater to these individuals chase away the rest because you can't have both.
The best game is the type of game that will keep you busy and entertained doing meaningful, important things with your single character anytime you feel like playing it. This is only possible through more end game options and features. In a true sandbox game there is space for everyone both hardcore and casual play styles. After all the casuals do need hardcore players that will run their guilds, lead their raids and guide them through every step.
Spot on.
How come people in this thread think hardcore players kill games? You think that guy named 'Bob' who's age is 15 and plays 2 hours a day and is a guild master gonna' run a guild as efficiently? You think he has the right over someone with more experience, maturity and time? If you're a casual stay a casual, but don't hate on the game because you can only play 1 hour a day and still not be able to compete with someone who play 10 hours a day. That's just irrational and beyond retarded, if you think that way. Why are you playing MMORPG's in the first place? MMORPG's have always rewarded players with longer playtime/rng than carebears.
It is how it is, don't make the game fit your needs, it goes the other way around. Just go play your League of Legends.
The problem is this tendency to continually move towards the mainstream and away from what made games unique.
Its ok though, "Everything is going great", say the mmo apologists.
Why is that a problem? OW sold 10M copies in 3 weeks, so that is as mainstream as you can get, and it is a polished fun games for many.
And yes, everything is going great. There are quite a few very successful MMOs recently, like Division & OW, and people are having fun. Sure, there are few classical mmorpgs anymore, but who cares when there are other great online games to play?
The problem is this tendency to continually move towards the mainstream and away from what made games unique.
Its ok though, "Everything is going great", say the mmo apologists.
Why is that a problem? OW sold 10M copies in 3 weeks, so that is as mainstream as you can get, and it is a polished fun games for many.
And yes, everything is going great. There are quite a few very successful MMOs recently, like Division & OW, and people are having fun. Sure, there are few classical mmorpgs anymore, but who cares when there are other great online games to play?
Who cares? People who don't think modern online games are great, you know people with different standards.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The term 'casual' in mmorpgs has nothing to do with time played or commitment to the game. Its simply people that want to play the game at a more relaxed pace and don't want to hold rigid raid schedules, min/max every peace of loot, and treat a game like a commitment.
You know what game consisted of 95% casuals? Everquest. Casuals LOVED that game. That game handed nothing to you for little effort.
hmmm I knew alot of people in EQ and I dont think Id consider any of them casuals....Now WoW had tons of casuals.
The problem is this tendency to continually move towards the mainstream and away from what made games unique.
Its ok though, "Everything is going great", say the mmo apologists.
Why is that a problem? OW sold 10M copies in 3 weeks, so that is as mainstream as you can get, and it is a polished fun games for many.
And yes, everything is going great. There are quite a few very successful MMOs recently, like Division & OW, and people are having fun. Sure, there are few classical mmorpgs anymore, but who cares when there are other great online games to play?
Who cares? People who don't think modern online games are great, you know people with different standards.
Dev cares. If blizz does not care, you think they will make the hugely successful Overwatch?
Sure people have different preferences. But so what? Why is it, again, a "problem" to move towards mainstream? It is the choice of the devs in a free market, right?
Imho, you've got to have casuals, and plenty of them, if you're going to remain relevant; this is doubly true if you're running a b2p or sub game. I think that if you're going to hang on to any real percentage of your launch player base, you've got to give people options when it comes to methods of progression. That's another discussion but what I mean is that you must include content either catered to, or inclusive of, your more casual people.
I wound point at WoW and Gw 1 and say that part of the reason they still exist, and were large enough to be influential, is simply because they don't force you into a corner in order for you to feel like you are advancing/progressing. I know other games do this too but those are the biggest ones, well, ever.
Point being you don't cater to a low percentage of players and then wonder why you're going f2p in six months. Casuals provide much of the flow of money through the economy too, I made a living gathering in WoW for years; how many unknown players who would be labeled "casuals" bought those mats? No telling, but in a raid-or-die or RNG-or-die atmosphere, they wouldn't exist.
"We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
Nope. Casuals don't have time ruin game. Casuals don't have time to do all QQ. Casuals just sits and run. They don't care if the game is too hard or too easy. They play for their own pleasure. Noobs are the one who hurting game. Want so much things for nothing in exchange.
That all depends on your perspective. Casuals have hurt MMOs for those who like how they were. For casual players they are better. I mostly dislike what MMOs have become as mainstream products.
It was actually WoW success that changed the course of the genre. Expectations of the genre's success changed and imitations to get that market became near 100%. Not hard to understand when the old king of MMORPG had 26 times less players.
Unfortunately no game pulled many of the player base. The inherent flaw in themepark only MMORPG which is content delivery was exaggerated because of the sameness across the games and overall oversaturation being combined. So we have an oversaturated genre developed across a very narrow evolution making it also very stale.
Nope. Casuals don't have time ruin game. Casuals don't have time to do all QQ. Casuals just sits and run. They don't care if the game is too hard or too easy. They play for their own pleasure. Noobs are the one who hurting game. Want so much things for nothing in exchange.
Too many people make the mistake of thinking time is a factor in if someone is a 'casual' or not.
I also see people saying things like 'casuals want the same stuff but for no effort'
This is just not the typical casual player.
Casual players in general are the 'stop and smell the roses' type of player. They are the ones least likely to think 'the game starts at max level'. They are the ones most likely to dump hours into leveling a tradeskill, but not for profit-because its fun. Sometimes casuals raid, but they are often happy to raid a lesser tier if it means they dont have to min/max. This doesn't mean they are 'bad', it just means they want to play what's fun and not whats best.
The problem casuals have these days is that the games just have so much less content, and even if they try to be slow leveling breezes by. So they are stuck at endgames that generally have very poor progression for casuals at endgame.
WoW struggles with this. Early on they had things like long reputation grinds-casuals like this sort of thing. they can chip away at their own pace and get cool stuff for it (not necessarily good gear). Then WoW leaned heavily on dailies, which is the sort of thing casuals hate. Its something that makes you feel pressured to log in every day and do predetermined content.
EQ had one of the best systems ever for casuals: AA points. You could do pretty much any content you wanted and still get some benefit for it. Especially things like helping your friend get a piece of gear. Or maybe trying for spell drops. Or just killing things with friends for fun.
I wouldnt use 'noob' to describe what you are describing, more like entitled people. Which is a big problem, and I am in full agreement that its a different set of people from casuals. there are also things like gear score elitists, go go go rushers, and others. And a lot of this is on the designers too. The genre really needs to be slowed back down somehow and made more like a world you visit than a game you play. you know, the way casuals want it.
Comments
I would love combat that required that you actually help your allies somehow as the way of showing the greatness that is group.
Imagine being able to actually distract a foes so that an ally can deliver a killing blow, or knocking an enemy to the ground so that your friend with the large weapon can attack more easily. I would like that better than the canned Tank/DPS/Heals cliche.
Its the logic you subscribed to (more like sold out to) that is going to continue perpetuating failure in this industry. As long as developers keep "compromising" and making safe games that don't represent what the actual fans want, of course they won't do well. Not only will the casuals passing through leave for the next shiny game, but those die hard fans will leave as well. See SWG > SWTOR. See EQ > EQ2. See EQ > VG. Shit, see vanilla WoW > current WoW.
The problem is this tendency to continually move towards the mainstream and away from what made games unique. Like Fevir said in the video, "[they're] not catering to anyone by catering to everyone." "Instead of trying to create unique, great games, they are trying to make not bad games." As such, they are in a world of hurt because that puts them in direct competition with titans like Blizzard who specialize in making the best, most polished "safe games."
Its ok though, "Everything is going great", say the mmo apologists. No one will pay a sub for mmos anymore but its only because "thats is the way things work now" and has nothing to do with the lack of quality in games.
Just keep telling yourself that.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Talking of ignorance, your post indicates your ignorance of the video this entire thread is predicated on.
2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing:
as opposed to
You know what game consisted of 95% casuals? Everquest. Casuals LOVED that game. That game handed nothing to you for little effort.
MMO checklist: Leveling, gear leveling, Early raid, mid raid, pre end end game raid, end game raid, open world PvPer somewhere, areana PvPer somewhere, suitable rewards for all things.
Instead of doing older style development where you find your core game loop, and taking it where you can.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
You'd think Dark Souls is "mainstream" based on how much it's talked about but the series as a whole has sold something like 8-10 million units during it's entire lifetime. Not just a single title, the whole series. Meanwhile, Overwatch cranks out 10 million in a week. And that's the real difference between mainstream and not-mainstream.
Once you start factoring in all the additional barriers that MMO's present vs a multiplatform action-rpg, having 1 million units sold (not retained players) becomes a more appropriate place to set your sights. It's a tall ask no matter what. MMORPG's are expensive to make, take a lot of time, and require some amount of upkeep. If a development studio is willing to do this for not-a-lot of money, more power to them.
How can you try a product you don't like? If you are trying something that implies first time, in commonly accepted vernacular. So I go back to my original point in that you should re-think that post and perhaps edit to reflect your thoughts on the matter instead of tying to insult anyone that ever tries anything new.
Also, we all know what assumption means, in this case however we ill keep it to just you.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No, no it wasn't.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
A hardcore may reach max level in a month while a casual spends 6+ months to reach max level. A hardcore player would spend months gearing up in raids while a casual spends a month gearing in dungeons at a slower pace. A casual goes for the top casual level gear while a hardcore is going for the best gear their was. Each had fun and both loved the game. Both played for long lengths of time maybe many months or even years.
Now though the difference is alts are a joke as almost all classes are nearly the same minus different visual's and names to *balance* for pvp on the 1v1 idea. Leveling is a joke because a hardcore can reach max in a day or two while a casual it takes a week. A hardcore gets the best dungeon gear in 2 days while the casual it takes a week. Further their is no exploration or adventure to slow things down instead a very linear line to follow from start to finish. Making an alt as well doesn't give you another fresh experience as well due to same areas and very similar or copied skills.
All this means that what was a game based around a 6 month push per toon is now a 2 week push per toon with very limited replayability.
Who's to blame? Casuals and PvPers.
Remember the old days in EQ or whatever other old game. How often did we remake our same characters again and again trying to get it right the way we wanted before they even got out of the newbie level range? How *HUGE* did the world feel when you ran through just a single city vs how it is today.
Your mmorpg experince must be close to null to say such atrocity.
asdasdasd
How come people in this thread think hardcore players kill games? You think that guy named 'Bob' who's age is 15 and plays 2 hours a day and is a guild master gonna' run a guild as efficiently? You think he has the right over someone with more experience, maturity and time? If you're a casual stay a casual, but don't hate on the game because you can only play 1 hour a day and still not be able to compete with someone who play 10 hours a day. That's just irrational and beyond retarded, if you think that way. Why are you playing MMORPG's in the first place? MMORPG's have always rewarded players with longer playtime/rng than carebears.
It is how it is, don't make the game fit your needs, it goes the other way around. Just go play your League of Legends.
asdasdasd
And yes, everything is going great. There are quite a few very successful MMOs recently, like Division & OW, and people are having fun. Sure, there are few classical mmorpgs anymore, but who cares when there are other great online games to play?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure people have different preferences. But so what? Why is it, again, a "problem" to move towards mainstream? It is the choice of the devs in a free market, right?
I wound point at WoW and Gw 1 and say that part of the reason they still exist, and were large enough to be influential, is simply because they don't force you into a corner in order for you to feel like you are advancing/progressing. I know other games do this too but those are the biggest ones, well, ever.
Point being you don't cater to a low percentage of players and then wonder why you're going f2p in six months. Casuals provide much of the flow of money through the economy too, I made a living gathering in WoW for years; how many unknown players who would be labeled "casuals" bought those mats? No telling, but in a raid-or-die or RNG-or-die atmosphere, they wouldn't exist.
Noobs are the one who hurting game. Want so much things for nothing in exchange.
Unfortunately no game pulled many of the player base. The inherent flaw in themepark only MMORPG which is content delivery was exaggerated because of the sameness across the games and overall oversaturation being combined. So we have an oversaturated genre developed across a very narrow evolution making it also very stale.
I also see people saying things like 'casuals want the same stuff but for no effort'
This is just not the typical casual player.
Casual players in general are the 'stop and smell the roses' type of player. They are the ones least likely to think 'the game starts at max level'. They are the ones most likely to dump hours into leveling a tradeskill, but not for profit-because its fun. Sometimes casuals raid, but they are often happy to raid a lesser tier if it means they dont have to min/max. This doesn't mean they are 'bad', it just means they want to play what's fun and not whats best.
The problem casuals have these days is that the games just have so much less content, and even if they try to be slow leveling breezes by. So they are stuck at endgames that generally have very poor progression for casuals at endgame.
WoW struggles with this. Early on they had things like long reputation grinds-casuals like this sort of thing. they can chip away at their own pace and get cool stuff for it (not necessarily good gear). Then WoW leaned heavily on dailies, which is the sort of thing casuals hate. Its something that makes you feel pressured to log in every day and do predetermined content.
EQ had one of the best systems ever for casuals: AA points. You could do pretty much any content you wanted and still get some benefit for it. Especially things like helping your friend get a piece of gear. Or maybe trying for spell drops. Or just killing things with friends for fun.
I wouldnt use 'noob' to describe what you are describing, more like entitled people. Which is a big problem, and I am in full agreement that its a different set of people from casuals. there are also things like gear score elitists, go go go rushers, and others. And a lot of this is on the designers too. The genre really needs to be slowed back down somehow and made more like a world you visit than a game you play. you know, the way casuals want it.