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How can developers replace the level grind progression model for MMORPGs?
Jill52
Member UncommonPosts: 85
Developers need to come up with other ways to challenge players
aside from long level grinds and similar time sinks if they want a successful
MMORPG these days.
What needs to be done is to rethink how a MMORPG should work. The current model that almost every game uses is focused on a progressive grind to a cap. The system itself creates much of the repetition and boredom that so many complain about.
The first issue is how to make a level free game challenging and interesting:
It isn't the late 90's early 2000's anymore. We have much better computers and adaptive AI. Can't they make a game that generates a unique dungeon based on the skill level of the party that enters it (like a more modern version of Anarchy Online's random mission generator)? Can they not have a boss AI that is programmed to anticipate player attack patterns and change its own strategy to compensate like a computer chess game does?
A game with something like that would require real talent and true skill to be among the top players. Grinding tens of thousands of easy mobs for many hours each day (sometimes with a bot or autoclicker while watching a series on netflix) to get skills up and/or farm gold to buy the best gear then googling a dungeon walkthrough video to succeed wouldn't be enough anymore.
I think we can agree there are some very good ways to make a game challenging without leveling or a long grind of any kind. If you have good ones please share
The question then is how do we measure progress or advancement in a game that is without levels or grinding:
One way is to not have much progress at all. Endgame players and newbies are almost the same aside from personal knowledge of the game and the items and skills they choose to have. But that's more like avoiding the problem instead of addressing it. Obviously it is a bad idea to just hand everything to a new player right away... I don't have any ideas on how to do this yet. If you do I'd like to hear them.
...How will new skills be learned?
Skills could be learned by seeing them used enough (like if a monster keeps countering your attacks you learn to counter like that too). There could be textbooks and skill trainers for basic skills too. As long as the learning method makes sense I'm sure it will work. I'd also like for players to be able to teach skills to other players. Much of how skill learning is done would depend on the game itself. How would you do it?
...How would items/gear work?
Obviously you can't have level-based items in a game without levels. In the real world you can use any item as long as it is available, you have the money to buy it or have a way to obtain it, and you're strong enough to physically wear/carry/wield it. My idea would be to make a system that mimics reality a little better than the traditional "you can't use that level 50 warrior sword because you're a level 25 mage". any thoughts?
----------------
There is so much more that needs considered for this. It requires reinventing the concept of MMORPG progression entirely. That isn't an easy thing to do. If it can be done the right way I think it could be just the thing to rekindle interest in the MMORPG genre.
What needs to be done is to rethink how a MMORPG should work. The current model that almost every game uses is focused on a progressive grind to a cap. The system itself creates much of the repetition and boredom that so many complain about.
The first issue is how to make a level free game challenging and interesting:
It isn't the late 90's early 2000's anymore. We have much better computers and adaptive AI. Can't they make a game that generates a unique dungeon based on the skill level of the party that enters it (like a more modern version of Anarchy Online's random mission generator)? Can they not have a boss AI that is programmed to anticipate player attack patterns and change its own strategy to compensate like a computer chess game does?
A game with something like that would require real talent and true skill to be among the top players. Grinding tens of thousands of easy mobs for many hours each day (sometimes with a bot or autoclicker while watching a series on netflix) to get skills up and/or farm gold to buy the best gear then googling a dungeon walkthrough video to succeed wouldn't be enough anymore.
I think we can agree there are some very good ways to make a game challenging without leveling or a long grind of any kind. If you have good ones please share
The question then is how do we measure progress or advancement in a game that is without levels or grinding:
One way is to not have much progress at all. Endgame players and newbies are almost the same aside from personal knowledge of the game and the items and skills they choose to have. But that's more like avoiding the problem instead of addressing it. Obviously it is a bad idea to just hand everything to a new player right away... I don't have any ideas on how to do this yet. If you do I'd like to hear them.
...How will new skills be learned?
Skills could be learned by seeing them used enough (like if a monster keeps countering your attacks you learn to counter like that too). There could be textbooks and skill trainers for basic skills too. As long as the learning method makes sense I'm sure it will work. I'd also like for players to be able to teach skills to other players. Much of how skill learning is done would depend on the game itself. How would you do it?
...How would items/gear work?
Obviously you can't have level-based items in a game without levels. In the real world you can use any item as long as it is available, you have the money to buy it or have a way to obtain it, and you're strong enough to physically wear/carry/wield it. My idea would be to make a system that mimics reality a little better than the traditional "you can't use that level 50 warrior sword because you're a level 25 mage". any thoughts?
----------------
There is so much more that needs considered for this. It requires reinventing the concept of MMORPG progression entirely. That isn't an easy thing to do. If it can be done the right way I think it could be just the thing to rekindle interest in the MMORPG genre.
Comments
How new skills are learned: Back in the 70s in dnd, you would learn new spells trough books or scrolls in many campaigns that I was involved with. Having a level system doesn't stop that from happening. In fact, players have demanded removal of going to trainers to learn so your suggestion for them would be going backwards. Fail.
I think we can agree there are some very good ways to make a game challenging without leveling or a long grind of any kind. I don't agree with this. There could be but often it isn't interesting. GW2 with the de-leveling was horrible to me.
Items and gear matching reality. Not sure I want to play a real world sim. Fail to me. Horizontal progression is funny to me. Instead of higher stats on your helm you are replacing a green hat with a blue one. Oh look at me now..........haha
He is what you should think about it. You want a game. Some type of game. It isn't an RPG. So why do you need it to be an RPG?
To the horizontal people who will pipe in on this thread. Story progression isn't horizontal progression.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
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LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The question is, would players enjoy combat if every mob took a long time and each one was like a boss? Maybe they would. But maybe they would find it tedious after a while where every mob is really a power up.
Also your use of It "isn't the late 90's early 2000's anymore" means nothing.
There's something about a breed of gamer that thinks that if something has happened in the past it is bad or just an inferior method instead of noting that it might just be different.
People still play games (not video games) that came about hundreds of years ago. And I don't just mean "chess".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In such a game, even if you stripped two individuals naked, however, the one with the greater combat experience would have a profound advantage. Having said that, it might not be quite as overwhelming at it is in, say, WoW where a single punch from a naked level 60 (let alone 100) can end a level 1.
This would help to make even newbs relevant in large-scale PvP wars, RvR, etc., where even the greenest untrained idiot can throw on a long bow and, with a few hours' practice, tilt it skywards, draw and fire. Line up 50 of those guys, and aim really doesn't matter - someone is going to die.
To put this another way, imagine it is the American Civil War and you are a conscript fresh out of training - you basically know how to load your rifle (slowly), line up, march, point, and shoot. You are pretty friggin' incapable. But your bullets remain as deadly as anybody's, and one good shot can take out a general (and could conceivably win a battle). Or, in another example, the most lowly of miners can be taught to swing a pick axe and chip away at a wall, or a lumberjack chop down small trees. In this way, you can give new people important (but basic) jobs from the first day in the game, even if they aren't (most of the time) altering the world in a strategic sense.
The point is, you are never going to get rid of the matrix where work equates to reward - it is a part of our lives, both in and out of gaming. Even in titles like Overwatch, if you want to unlock an outfit, you have to work towards it. Moreover, as the above videos point out, all sense of accomplishment is derived from, essentially, special flower syndrome - we want people to see the payoffs from our labors in a tangible form.
But you can make the grind more palatable by incorporating people as a part of the "endgame" from day 1 - you can eliminate a lot of this nonsense with levels and going from 1 to X if you make more of an effort to use life as a model.
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- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Every time you complete an achievement you get a small boost or learn a new skill. And not kill 1000 goblins but kill the goblin king and similar stuff.
Skip levels but have a minimum required stat or 2 on gear.
The advantage is that players can't just grind the same content over and over, to become good you will have to do a lot of different stuff and explore the gameworld.
One could of course have an alternate PvP achievement you can complete instead of the PvE one so you don't force PvEers to PvP against their will or the other way around. I would also need to figure out how to deal with raids, relatively few players enjoy them but raiders are very faithful players. Might do so raid achievement gives out gear and cosmetic stuff or something...
You would instead of 60-100 levels have 1000 or so AA points but unlike levels you can focus on the buffs you want first.
I would also be a bit restricted with giving out too many hitpoints and other stuff that makes the powergap too great, particularly on the PvP servers (I might even lower all stat boosts on them to make PvP more interesting but of course nerf the PvE content on those servers as well to balance things out),
Want to learn how to use a new weapon instead of the basic for your class? Defeat the goblin king and you learn to use a two handed sword (unless you are a spellcaster, then you learn elmekian lance or whatever instead).
Of course I would still limit the number of skills you could equip at any given time and have some restrictions on which slot or slots any skill could be put in. Think something a bit similar to GW1s handling of elite skills...
Anyways, that is how I would solve the problem but their are many different ways you can go. The important thing is that you need to reward your players for doing more then just farm a few spots in your game, the more of the game they experience the better. Of course you also need to be a bit lenient so you don't force your players to do too much content they hate, encouraging soloers to do a bit of grouping is fine but forcing them to do all the raids is a bit too much and would cost you players.
MMORPG's need to be less level / equipment centric, and a lot more skill centric. Take Diablo 2 for example (yes I wrote 2, not 3, lol) the barbarian pretty much sucks until it gets to level 30 with Whirlwind skill, and regardless of equipment, once it gets WW, it pretty much kicks ass, and with mobs dropping loot up the wazoo, you don't need to farm the same dungeon 24/7 to get the best gear. That's where current MMORPG's get lame and boring fast, Devs keep working on breath taking worlds, but in the end everyone just keeps farming the same 5% of the game world and not giving a crap about the rest of the 95%. And I wrote this countless times, Devs need to stop with the realistic meaningless graphics and start putting that time in to game play mechanics and loot. Seriously, you can't get any "crappier" graphics than MineCraft, but holy Christ, there's a TON MORE active players on that game than almost any MMORPG currently on the market. I always laugh when I read posts on these forums where people give waaaayyyyy too much praise to a new MMO for it's graphics, lol, keep praising it because once the 30 day honeymoon phase is over, you'll most likely be all by yourself playing it.
Now leveling takes 2-3 weeks and is more or less a long tutorial to the endgame, you will rarely find something challenging until you max out.
If things continue like they have done before then 10 years from now leveling will take a few days for an average player. So that leveling would disappear altogether is not so strange as it sounds, it seems to be where MMOs are heading if the trend continues and the increasing leveling speed are certainly still going on.
Another trend is that games seems to add more levels, most launching games today have 80 or so levels, 40 or so were common in the the late 90s. Expansions have always added 5-10 levels though so that at least seems to be the same.
People are very good at picking up on patterns - and in time they will learn the "key" to the randomness. At times, you may get a larger variety of gameplay from a fully static system, than with a fully random system. Take MOBAs for example - the input is static each time, but no two games are ever the same.
One way to deliver endless unpredictability is to use the human factor. MOBAs are never the same, because no two players are the same. If you built MMO progression around the social aspect, you technically never run out of "new content". Let's say the ultimate goal is to become the king of the world. Starting out as a nobody, you slowly gain influence, gain control of town districts, then towns, then local regions, then nations, then the world. Such progression would never be the same for two people, and it would never run out, provided you wanted to maintain influence.
The downside with the social factor - it is player base dependant. Even if you aim for instanced communities of 500 players, the game will crumble if you fail to meet that.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The question the developers need to answer if they are going to stick with fast leveling, is how can they keep player interest when all of the meaningful character progression in a game takes place in the first two months (at most).
Player settlements that tackle PVP and PVE threats and work for the upkeep and maintenance of the settlement, and of course go on epic adventures every new patch
The question then is how do we measure progress or advancement in a game that is without levels or grinding:
Stats, skills, items, settlements, guilds, orders, factions
...How will new skills be learned?
Achievements, quests
...How would items/gear work?
I wouldn't put any artificial barriers on wearing gear, but would give stats and skills a more prominent role.
Then it had thousands of individual skills and skills were linked back to the most appropriate attribute. If you have a high Dexterity Attribute, then you can learn skills such as dodging and acrobatics better.
Then it had hundreds of advantages and disadvantages. Advantages give you certain character abilities, and Disadvantages give your character drawbacks, but for every disadvantage you take, you get more points to spend building your character.
As you play the game, you are awarded Build Points for peforming certain actions or completing quests, which you can spend on all of the above. Have a lot of Dex based skills and want to raise all of them at once? Then raise your Dexterity Attribute.
The system would need a few modifications to work in an MMORPG, but overall it's a great base system.
If you don't want progression then what you want is an "Adventure" or "Action" based game which there are plenty of, I would argue that most games are moving toward less real progression and more instant action based because its harder to hold most peoples attention these days.
Why would developers want to spend AAA money to build content forgotten with each level? Why would players want to be relegated to spend most of their playtime in end game doing the same thing over and over?
If you have to have deleveling than you didn't need levels in the first place. Most MMORPG play counterintuitive to leveling which is why it's brief and unsatisfying for those who like leveling and still a boring chore for those who don't.
Progression without levels frees you to make a world that functions and not hubs to funnel players neatly from quest to quest leaving barren land once the game matures. You can also design your game around challenge that stay difficult even as the game matures or even expands. You're end game options expand with expansions. Not move you to the next end game recycle.
If you dislike progression, aka: "Grinds", maybe RPGs are not your thing?
VG
I think OP is actually asking how we could get rid of this boring and unnecessary part and maybe start 'the meaningful grinds' immediately after character creation.
Even better if something totally new would emerge but i, for one, am so done with hundreds of mindless quests and level-ups for doing practically nothing to earn them.
It makes for a very awkward transition.
I can remember back in the early days of EQ - the population wasn't very top heavy yet, and there were raid events starting around L10, and enough to keep large groups of players busy all the way up. The population was spread out across level ranges, and you could find someone to play with no matter what your level was. Players leveled so slowly and that made the cap more or less something that just was so far off it didn't really exist for a long time.
Games like CoH had great "level-equalizers" - the Sidekick let lower players come along with higher level players, and Mentor let higher level players scale down to play with lower levels without overpowering the content - it really helped to reduce the friction caused by vertical leveling.
I really think the bottom line is that people play online games so they can play with their friends, and meet new friends. The progression system should not only accommodate that, but encourage it.