I don't know, but I'd LOVE to see it happen. Leveling is so 90s(and frankly boring and redundant). GW1 worked superbly with that minimal leveling time of its.
What's even the appeal of leveling? To me it's a redundant gating of content.
If your modeling level is vertical, you end up with the problem where the player base eventually all reaches the top... and then what do you do?
The most common solution is to then shift the ladder - go from a vertical level grind to a vertical gear grind - it's the same thing, just instead of a character level, your grinding for a gear score.
So one way to keep vertical progression in place but keep players from pooling up so fast is to gate it. That doesn't stop players from reaching the top, it just slows the process down - hopefully long enough so you can invent the next hamster wheel before a lot of players get to the top and get bored. A lot of players hate this though. I won't say "ADHD" which is the common excuse, but more because they can see it for what it is - there is an artificial gate - it's often a requirement to level up a reputation or faction, or achieve a certain gear score where events or currency to purchase that are limited time events, or whatever.
And if you make a game purely skill based - well, you end up in the same boat. Some players just aren't as good and will never be as good. I'm not, I get beaten by every 10-18 year old out there, and at my age no amount of practice is going to make up for my old ass being slow and clumsy. That isn't to say that I don't get better at playing games over time, I do, but I'll never be on the same level as someone like Geguri. So that's why games provide another means for players to gain more power, and that's where some form of vertical progression comes in.
Vertical progression is one of those Catch-22's. You want a more or less equal playing field. You use it to help equalize out the difference in player skill, but at the same time, it allows players an alternative means to "get better" other than just their own skill, so how do you level all of that out?
Ultimately, with a game, I need to feel that I am progressing. I have played some FPS-type games where the progression is all skill based. And once I get tired of getting wiped out by every 10 year old out there, but can pretty handily beat whatever weak AI-bot system they have, I feel like I've hit my skill plateau in the game, and then it bores me and I stop.
Same thing with vertical progression games. Once I hit "the cap", and it's more or less the artificial gated treadmill, I get bored and stop playing. FFXIV is a pretty good example of this: I love the game, and can play it from Level 1 all the way up... but every time I hit the point where gear progression gets gated by a currency that's limited allocation per week, that's the point where I get bored and take a break - every time.
I don't think they need to replace it as much as they need to improve it. Give us the same things to do while we level as we would get to do at cap. People are tired of the leveling today because it's arbitrary and meaningless. It's a storytelling element as opposed to a long term progression element.
It's a tricky situation. An MMORPG needs way more content than devs have a chance to produce. Players blast through it way too fast to keep up. Thus they will need some sort of repetition or smart systems that allow the players to basically be their own content. (PvP being the most common example) The trick is to keep them repeating content without it feeling very grindy. Making worlds more dynamic could be one way to keep it fresh even if the players repeat similar actions over and over again. If it's for a cause and the circumstances keep shifting, it feels much less repetitive.
We already see developers breaking this in multi-player games. You can decrease the level grind by increasing re-playability. This is far easier to do in multi-player PVP games like MOBAs. If you look at a MOBA there is maybe a dozen maps played over and over again, yet players still play because your opponents provide variety. In this way content doesn't feel stale when playing the game again for a new character. To do this in a PVE based MMO, you would need to take an approach like WoW where you have 2~3 alternative ways of leveling. However, this is often costly. A simpler method is to have more dynamic content and make PVP an alternative.
We already see developers breaking this in multi-player games. You can decrease the level grind by increasing re-playability. This is far easier to do in multi-player PVP games like MOBAs. If you look at a MOBA there is maybe a dozen maps played over and over again, yet players still play because your opponents provide variety. In this way content doesn't feel stale when playing the game again for a new character. To do this in a PVE based MMO, you would need to take an approach like WoW where you have 2~3 alternative ways of leveling. However, this is often costly. A simpler method is to have more dynamic content and make PVP an alternative.
If we think battlegrounds and raids in WoW as MOBA maps, the interest is also there. Players who like raiding and PvP will stay longer than others, even when the so-called content drought begins, and they often see leveling as something they don't really enjoy, but they have to do in order to get to the interesting part.
They are basically the same people playing these games. The only difference is in one game you can start the real game immediately, in other you have to do a leveling process first, which often is dull and too long.
What really is the problem here is their target audience. If you took raiding and PvP away from WoW, how many would continue to play today? Not many, i think. Some lore fanatics and a few casual gamer who enjoys the story and pet battles. It's MOBA and FPS gamers and hardcore raiders who play MMORPGs today, and that's no secret for anyone.
There's practically no game in leveling part these days, it's like clicking through an e-book and following a story, which leads you to a game part of a product. This is what has to change. MMORPG's should be a genre of its own, not a combined e-book and a MOBA game. The game should interest players even if they knew there is no raiding or PvP when they reach max level (if there is one), and even that shouldn't be taken for granted.
The meat of a PvE based MMO should be in "leveling", and it should be designed to challenge players just like a MOBA battle or raiding does. And just like a MOBA game has no end (except maybe for a very few individuals who accomplish everything) there shouldn't be end in PvE based MMO. Players will continue to play only as long as they feel they can progress further in game.
This thread is about to give ideas how to replace that leveling process with something else. One way would be: 'it doesn't have to be replaced, just make sure it doesn't end'. If there's no endgame to grind for, no PvP arenas or battlegrounds, or no raids whatsoever, no one feels like they were 'leveling a character for something greater good that waits you at the end of a tunnel'.
I don't know, but I'd LOVE to see it happen. Leveling is so 90s(and frankly boring and redundant). GW1 worked superbly with that minimal leveling time of its.
What's even the appeal of leveling? To me it's a redundant gating of content.
If your modeling level is vertical, you end up with the problem where the player base eventually all reaches the top... and then what do you do?
I think this is the crux of the whole problem. I am an "Alternate Character" junkie. When I played EQ and WoW, I had servers full of characters I rolled up and played. This rarely happens anymore. Most players today do a 1 character and done playthrough. They no longer desire to stick around the game and explore different possibilities. Some players way back when did 1 character runs, but leveling was so much slower they were not done in a month. MMOs I've played in the last 5 or 6 years have had me not wanting to run through the exact same starter areas time and time again with alts.
In CoH, I always made sure I had characters in each 10 level bracket (01-09, 10-19, 20-29, etc). That way I always had a character that could group up with anyone. When my lowest character moved up out of the lowest tier, I rolled a new hero.
Then again, I'm the type of player that has no desire to reach any kind of "end game", as that means "end of the game" to me. Raiding is too chaotic and I suck (thus finding no enjoyment) in PvP. Crafting and homesteading is what would keep maxed out characters logging in.
You did make a great point that eventually, an MMO gets "top heavy." With the "right" (like the quote?) kind of players though, it would not be a huge deficit as everyone has multiple characters running about.
I don't see this happening anytime soon, as the "rushthroughasfastaspossible" players commands the devs attention.
I don't know, but I'd LOVE to see it happen. Leveling is so 90s(and frankly boring and redundant). GW1 worked superbly with that minimal leveling time of its.
What's even the appeal of leveling? To me it's a redundant gating of content.
If your modeling level is vertical, you end up with the problem where the player base eventually all reaches the top... and then what do you do?
The most common solution is to then shift the ladder - go from a vertical level grind to a vertical gear grind - it's the same thing, just instead of a character level, your grinding for a gear score.
So one way to keep vertical progression in place but keep players from pooling up so fast is to gate it. That doesn't stop players from reaching the top, it just slows the process down - hopefully long enough so you can invent the next hamster wheel before a lot of players get to the top and get bored. A lot of players hate this though. I won't say "ADHD" which is the common excuse, but more because they can see it for what it is - there is an artificial gate - it's often a requirement to level up a reputation or faction, or achieve a certain gear score where events or currency to purchase that are limited time events, or whatever.
And if you make a game purely skill based - well, you end up in the same boat. Some players just aren't as good and will never be as good. I'm not, I get beaten by every 10-18 year old out there, and at my age no amount of practice is going to make up for my old ass being slow and clumsy. That isn't to say that I don't get better at playing games over time, I do, but I'll never be on the same level as someone like Geguri. So that's why games provide another means for players to gain more power, and that's where some form of vertical progression comes in.
Vertical progression is one of those Catch-22's. You want a more or less equal playing field. You use it to help equalize out the difference in player skill, but at the same time, it allows players an alternative means to "get better" other than just their own skill, so how do you level all of that out?
Ultimately, with a game, I need to feel that I am progressing. I have played some FPS-type games where the progression is all skill based. And once I get tired of getting wiped out by every 10 year old out there, but can pretty handily beat whatever weak AI-bot system they have, I feel like I've hit my skill plateau in the game, and then it bores me and I stop.
Same thing with vertical progression games. Once I hit "the cap", and it's more or less the artificial gated treadmill, I get bored and stop playing. FFXIV is a pretty good example of this: I love the game, and can play it from Level 1 all the way up... but every time I hit the point where gear progression gets gated by a currency that's limited allocation per week, that's the point where I get bored and take a break - every time.
You don't have horizontal progression. It is flat. Stop with the lie!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Lets say you make a character and have the best gear and maxed out stats once you hit create. I would see no point playing the game. Tough question though but I think there has to be some level of progression, because players what to feel they achieved something.
I think the best answer I have come up with (I've asked myself this question many times) is to provide the same breadth of content that traditional MMOs offer as elder game as the actual game progression; eliminate levels and progress more horizontally.
So many traditional MMOs spend huge amounts of time and money developing assets that solely exist to fuel leveling, which many players find tedious to begin with. Leveling zones and dungeons in MMOs of almost any age past brand new are basically barren. The story content of these games is consumed once at best by most players.
I remember when I started playing Ultima Online many years ago and I had no concept initially of 'maxxing' my character before I set about achieving my goals in game. I simply did the things I thought were fun and progressed as I did. We need a system much more like that.
Horizontal progression could mean starting from a more rounded character and becoming more specialized (not necessarily more powerful) or nearly the opposite, starting with a very limited character and learning more and more skills to become more rounded. In Archeage, you could level every skill tree in the game on a single character by respeccing, FF XIV does something similar.
I think traditional questing and/or mob grinding (for experience) can be eliminated altogether. Allow raiding, dungeon content, and pvp from the beginning of the game essentially. Make the progression of these activities tied more to game knowledge, teamwork, and smart play. This is similar in concept to how a very new player can contribute effectively to PvP in EVE even though they have very limited skill points. Make a great game world and don't waste it on content that will be consumed and abandoned while the elder game players simply sit in a capital city. Find a better way to encourage players to interact and grow the community aspects of the game without creating a sense that you have to do certain things (like join a large dominant guild) to be relevant. Emphasize player crafting and trading in the game's economy; this has been a fairly strong theme in the MMOs I played where I felt community was important. Since you aren't wasting 30 zones of your game's space on quest content, emphasize exploring more. If you have to have a time consuming progression aspect to give players a constant purpose then try something like dungeon grinding for currency or rare drops; at least that can be a compelling social experience and a way for players to fraternize.
Didn't mean to ramble. I'm too sleepy to post more coherently at the moment. Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the issue over the years.
"Progression" is the heart and soul of RPGs. Watching our character grow is what keeps most of us playing. If not levels, you have "gear grinds", "zone grinds", "faction grinds", anything that progresses your character, vertically or horizontally.
If you dislike progression, aka: "Grinds", maybe RPGs are not your thing?
But there are limited for the "grinds" , if the reward wasn't worth it then why i have to grind ?
2 month for 1 set of item that will get throw away in next update ? no half years for one last level so i can wear the gears that will outdated soon ?
Reward must worth the grind , or else it's pointless to grind . And the grind must be acceptable .
Also , you wrong in one thing. "grinds" is heart of RPG and "gamble" is soul of RPG . Without grind , you don't feel the progression aka worth it . And without the kiss of goddess of luck , you don't feel fun .
"Progression" is the heart and soul of RPGs. Watching our character grow is what keeps most of us playing. If not levels, you have "gear grinds", "zone grinds", "faction grinds", anything that progresses your character, vertically or horizontally.
If you dislike progression, aka: "Grinds", maybe RPGs are not your thing?
But there are limited for the "grinds" , if the reward wasn't worth it then why i have to grind ?
2 month for 1 set of item that will get throw away in next update ? no half years for one last level so i can wear the gears that will outdated soon ?
Reward must worth the grind , or else it's pointless to grind . And the grind must be acceptable .
Also , you wrong in one thing. "grinds" is heart of RPG and "gamble" is soul of RPG . Without grind , you don't feel the progression aka worth it . And without the kiss of goddess of luck , you don't feel fun .
First things first: Difficult =|= Grind. Putting in a little effort shouldn't be a "grind." "Grind" is defined differently by every single player. Some players actually enjoy what others call "grind." "Grind" is a negative descriptive. If a video game is all about the negative, why bother playing it?
I've tried a couple of replies and got way off-track. I'll leave this as is and just say, One player's "grind" is another player's "fun."
The grind is necessary. People like to feel like their character is getting stronger. It's a more palpable feel of progress than player skill increasing. People play FPS games because they're fun, yes, but it's also fun to dominate people and see your skill improve so that you can dominate more people. In an MMO, PVP isn't everyone's first choice, so the obvious alternative is level and gear power progression, and it's tried and true. Who doesn't love getting that next badass weapon, or allocating new skills and stats? It's a necessary part of the formula. It's expected, and it works. The grind is the problem. The only way to prevent grind is to introduce alternatives methods of progression. Killing mobs all day sucks. Questing is better. Instances are even better. PvP options are great. Put it all together and you have a game that doesn't make you feel like logging out right after you log in during the hardest part of your grind, because you have options. More than one thing to fill your time. You know what helps the most, though? Community. Friends to help you and friends that need your help. That's the biggest grind-killer.
The grind is necessary. People like to feel like their character is getting stronger. It's a more palpable feel of progress than player skill increasing. People play FPS games because they're fun, yes, but it's also fun to dominate people and see your skill improve so that you can dominate more people. In an MMO, PVP isn't everyone's first choice, so the obvious alternative is level and gear power progression, and it's tried and true. Who doesn't love getting that next badass weapon, or allocating new skills and stats? It's a necessary part of the formula. It's expected, and it works. The grind is the problem. The only way to prevent grind is to introduce alternatives methods of progression. Killing mobs all day sucks. Questing is better. Instances are even better. PvP options are great. Put it all together and you have a game that doesn't make you feel like logging out right after you log in during the hardest part of your grind, because you have options. More than one thing to fill your time. You know what helps the most, though? Community. Friends to help you and friends that need your help. That's the biggest grind-killer.
Do you really feel like you're character is getting stronger when the challenge is flat? Oh those rare to never times you go back to newbie zones to one shot things?
Most of the power gains come through gaining new skills. You don't really need levels to gain new skills.
Umm, you can't. If it isn't called level progression, it will be called something else. Regardless, all methods still do the same thing, allow you to slowly become better. That's the nature of games and of RPGs. If you hate it so much, then maybe you need to find another hobby.
There is only one thing that I do suggest, however. Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.
For example... the World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do. So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make... why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.
Umm, you can't. If it isn't called level progression, it will be called something else. Regardless, all methods still do the same thing, allow you to slowly become better. That's the nature of games and of RPGs. If you hate it so much, then maybe you need to find another hobby.
There is only one thing that I do suggest, however. Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.
For example... the World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do. So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make... why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.
That's called non-linear progression.
The alternative of linear progression is what was being argued against in this thread it seems (linear progression being the style where you are set into a class or set of specific skills and can only progress in that narrow band).
Also there is such a thing as horizontal progression vs vertical progression. Vertical progression is the common RPG format of players getting statistically stronger over time, but there is such a thing as horizontal progression which instead of unlocking higher stats as you level, you are unlocking more and more customization and features to tailor and specialize your character.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Not really. It's just called "progression". Because its far more expansive than that. You aren't limited in any way other than what you already have. Meaning... just for example... you have to learn how to cook macaroni and cheese and store bought cake mixes before you can learn how to cook specialized dishes that a true chef might understand. If that makes sense. You need to understand how to make a butterknife before you can make a demascus steel sword. You need to understand how to wittle a chair leg before you can build the entire chair. Everyone learns by steps. Building a computer is alot harder than buying one already built for you.
It is not horizontal progression, it is about choice.
Everyone has personal interests. For example... I loath doing the dishes, hence I generally try avoid cooking unless I can make someone else do the dishes for me. I can cook all right, but am not a chef because it is not my focus. But I am good with computers because I'm interested in them, and long ago discovered that it's must easier for me to fix a problem with something I use all day every day than it is to call a tech to fix it. I've spent many years learning on my own how to build them, how to test them, etc. I did not go to school for this. It's a hobby but I love it as much as they drive me crazy. But my ultimate skills lie in the hotel industry. I went to school for business, and I've spent almost a decade and a half in the industry slowly increasing my knowledge and customer service skills. I'm good at it because it's my focus and I love it. It's the same with everyone. And that's the same way it should be in a game. Not everyone can be good at everything but you can be good at what you choose to focus on. It's not horizontal progression, it's just progression.
I'm tired of being forced in to a role at the beginning. If I'm a ranger, why can't I also learn to use a sword? I may not be anywhere near as good at it but it should be my choice. If I'm a forger, why can't I also learn how to cook or how to sew or anything else? And why can't I decide to change what I know without losing all the progression in the past skills in 2 seconds flat?
Progression should be MY choice, not forced on me. I hope that makes sense.
There are types of progression within the overarching concept of progression whether or not you care about understanding them. They are different because they affect both the game and the user in different ways and defines the scope of what the progression entails and the manner in which the game is balanced.
Linear progression, exponential progression, non-linear progression, vertical progression, horizontal progression, etc. These are all terms that have their own definitions and meaning because there is a considerable distinction in their uses.
Post edited by Deivos on
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Umm, you can't. If it isn't called level progression, it will be called something else. Regardless, all methods still do the same thing, allow you to slowly become better. That's the nature of games and of RPGs. If you hate it so much, then maybe you need to find another hobby.
There is only one thing that I do suggest, however. Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.
For example... the World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do. So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make... why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.
There is a major different in the construct of most level based games. Maybe you should find another hobby if all you seek is cheap quest to push you to level cap with no roleplaying at all. Not really but just showing you how you sound.
The biggest different between levels and most other games is that you usually feed content into levels and out level content or stuck on a strict linear path. Or levels are just markers that mean nothing in the first place.
Progression can happen without you going through the 1-whatever and going through content carefully arranged for you to do that.
Most of the power gains come through gaining new skills. You don't really need levels to gain new skills.
True, you don't need levels to gain new skills, but you do need progression of some kind. I think the OP's thoughts were not necessarily about levels, but rather progression of any kind, seen as "grind."
I could have misread the OP, but that was my take on it.
The OP seems to be talking about a few key things:
1) Grind
Having to repeat something you don't enjoy is a grind and OP has asked if there is a way to remove the grind. OP has related grind to unchallenging content, but grind is just repeating something you don't like.
The solution: make the activity more enjoyable. For one group of players, that might mean increasing the difficulty. For others, it might mean writing better quality stories. For others, it might mean making everything group based.
Every player has a different set of preferences, so grind is unavoidable unless your game involves no repetition at all.
2) Challenge
OP also talked about why MMOs aren't that challenging and talked about improved AI. They key to any game is "achievable challenges". Beating a challenge provides you with a kick of endorphins (or dopamine, i forget which) which is pleasurable. Its a key reason why people love computer games. However, make the challenge too hard and people can't complete it. Make it too easy and its no longer a challenge. Its very difficult to balance static content.
So, more intelligent AI may be the solution. However, eventually you'll figure out that the AI will adapt to you and is designed so that you can always beat it, so its not really a challenge.
I think adaptive strategy is the key. Too many games make their fights about stats: got the right gear then executing a simple rotation will win. Make it all about the strategy: good strategy and you'll win, bad strategy and you'll lose. Would mean you'll start off losing, learn the strategy, execute the strategy then win.
3) Alternative Progression
I'm a massive fan of horizontal progression. I believe it is the future of MMOs. Horizontal progression is all about specialisation. It still allows you to get better, to progress your character, to allow you to complete new challenges and play the game in new and interesting ways, whilst not introducing power gaps.
Simple example:
At level 1, my warrior has 100 health and 100 strength.
In a vertical system, at lvl 2 I would have 110 health and 110 strength In a horizontal system, at lvl 2 I gain the choice to have 110 health and 90 strength, or remain balanced.
In the vertical system, I'm 10% better each level, creating power gaps, segregating the community and making it harder to play together. In the horizontal system, I'm equivalent to the level 1 player, but more specialised. This allows me to play together with all my friends, but allows me to personalise my playstyle, adding depth to the game.
You can still have levels in a horizontal progression system, its just that each level would open up more options, rather than just making you statistically better.
Now, there aren't many games out there that use horizontal progression. LotRO used vertical progression for leveling, but horizontal at endgame when it first released and it worked great. It meant those leveling up felt they were progressing in the usual manner. At endgame, everyone could participate in everything, but your specialisation (or lack thereof) played a massive role in what tactics you had to use to complete endgame content. For example, you'd prefer to use the low-health-but-high-mitgation tank on bosses, but the high-health-but-lower-mits tank for pulling adds as they can soak up the burst damage easier.
PvP games often prefer to use horizontal progression as well. Something like CoD uses mostly horizontal progression - more damage but slower rate of fire. Better accuracy at the cost damage. Silencer but lower range etc. It still gives you something to work for, things to unlock to progress yourself, whilst not unbalancing the game and making people massively overpowered.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Umm, you can't. If it isn't called level progression, it will be called something else. Regardless, all methods still do the same thing, allow you to slowly become better. That's the nature of games and of RPGs. If you hate it so much, then maybe you need to find another hobby.
There is only one thing that I do suggest, however. Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.
For example... the World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do. So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make... why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.
There is a major different in the construct of most level based games. Maybe you should find another hobby if all you seek is cheap quest to push you to level cap with no roleplaying at all. Not really but just showing you how you sound.
The biggest different between levels and most other games is that you usually feed content into levels and out level content or stuck on a strict linear path. Or levels are just markers that mean nothing in the first place.
Progression can happen without you going through the 1-whatever and going through content carefully arranged for you to do that.
Wth are you talking about? Did you even read what I said? I somehow don't think you did.
I would say that progression is a commonly accepted and expected tradition in rpgs (like hot dogs and statistics are to baseball), but I don't think it is the defining characteristic. The defining characteristic is that you play a character and choose the role for that character to act out in the game world; i.e., a wood elf ranger based in Kelethin following the goddess Tunare. The "p" in rpg is for "role play," not "progression."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"Progression" is the heart and soul of RPGs. Watching our character grow is what keeps most of us playing. If not levels, you have "gear grinds", "zone grinds", "faction grinds", anything that progresses your character, vertically or horizontally.
If you dislike progression, aka: "Grinds", maybe RPGs are not your thing?
Many MMO players seem to be tired of level grind and say the real game starts in cap a.k.a the point where level grind changes to gear grind.
I think OP is actually asking how we could get rid of this boring and unnecessary part and maybe start 'the meaningful grinds' immediately after character creation.
Even better if something totally new would emerge but i, for one, am so done with hundreds of mindless quests and level-ups for doing practically nothing to earn them.
Perhaps it isn't the rpg but the player who has the problem? Why does your game have to be an rpg? Why that label? Why not call it something that doesn't have rpg associated?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
The most common solution is to then shift the ladder - go from a vertical level grind to a vertical gear grind - it's the same thing, just instead of a character level, your grinding for a gear score.
So one way to keep vertical progression in place but keep players from pooling up so fast is to gate it. That doesn't stop players from reaching the top, it just slows the process down - hopefully long enough so you can invent the next hamster wheel before a lot of players get to the top and get bored. A lot of players hate this though. I won't say "ADHD" which is the common excuse, but more because they can see it for what it is - there is an artificial gate - it's often a requirement to level up a reputation or faction, or achieve a certain gear score where events or currency to purchase that are limited time events, or whatever.
And if you make a game purely skill based - well, you end up in the same boat. Some players just aren't as good and will never be as good. I'm not, I get beaten by every 10-18 year old out there, and at my age no amount of practice is going to make up for my old ass being slow and clumsy. That isn't to say that I don't get better at playing games over time, I do, but I'll never be on the same level as someone like Geguri. So that's why games provide another means for players to gain more power, and that's where some form of vertical progression comes in.
Vertical progression is one of those Catch-22's. You want a more or less equal playing field. You use it to help equalize out the difference in player skill, but at the same time, it allows players an alternative means to "get better" other than just their own skill, so how do you level all of that out?
Ultimately, with a game, I need to feel that I am progressing. I have played some FPS-type games where the progression is all skill based. And once I get tired of getting wiped out by every 10 year old out there, but can pretty handily beat whatever weak AI-bot system they have, I feel like I've hit my skill plateau in the game, and then it bores me and I stop.
Same thing with vertical progression games. Once I hit "the cap", and it's more or less the artificial gated treadmill, I get bored and stop playing. FFXIV is a pretty good example of this: I love the game, and can play it from Level 1 all the way up... but every time I hit the point where gear progression gets gated by a currency that's limited allocation per week, that's the point where I get bored and take a break - every time.
Thus they will need some sort of repetition or smart systems that allow the players to basically be their own content. (PvP being the most common example)
The trick is to keep them repeating content without it feeling very grindy. Making worlds more dynamic could be one way to keep it fresh even if the players repeat similar actions over and over again. If it's for a cause and the circumstances keep shifting, it feels much less repetitive.
To do this in a PVE based MMO, you would need to take an approach like WoW where you have 2~3 alternative ways of leveling. However, this is often costly. A simpler method is to have more dynamic content and make PVP an alternative.
They are basically the same people playing these games. The only difference is in one game you can start the real game immediately, in other you have to do a leveling process first, which often is dull and too long.
What really is the problem here is their target audience. If you took raiding and PvP away from WoW, how many would continue to play today? Not many, i think. Some lore fanatics and a few casual gamer who enjoys the story and pet battles. It's MOBA and FPS gamers and hardcore raiders who play MMORPGs today, and that's no secret for anyone.
There's practically no game in leveling part these days, it's like clicking through an e-book and following a story, which leads you to a game part of a product. This is what has to change. MMORPG's should be a genre of its own, not a combined e-book and a MOBA game. The game should interest players even if they knew there is no raiding or PvP when they reach max level (if there is one), and even that shouldn't be taken for granted.
The meat of a PvE based MMO should be in "leveling", and it should be designed to challenge players just like a MOBA battle or raiding does. And just like a MOBA game has no end (except maybe for a very few individuals who accomplish everything) there shouldn't be end in PvE based MMO. Players will continue to play only as long as they feel they can progress further in game.
This thread is about to give ideas how to replace that leveling process with something else. One way would be: 'it doesn't have to be replaced, just make sure it doesn't end'. If there's no endgame to grind for, no PvP arenas or battlegrounds, or no raids whatsoever, no one feels like they were 'leveling a character for something greater good that waits you at the end of a tunnel'.
In CoH, I always made sure I had characters in each 10 level bracket (01-09, 10-19, 20-29, etc). That way I always had a character that could group up with anyone. When my lowest character moved up out of the lowest tier, I rolled a new hero.
Then again, I'm the type of player that has no desire to reach any kind of "end game", as that means "end of the game" to me. Raiding is too chaotic and I suck (thus finding no enjoyment) in PvP. Crafting and homesteading is what would keep maxed out characters logging in.
You did make a great point that eventually, an MMO gets "top heavy." With the "right" (like the quote?) kind of players though, it would not be a huge deficit as everyone has multiple characters running about.
I don't see this happening anytime soon, as the "rushthroughasfastaspossible" players commands the devs attention.
VG
You don't have horizontal progression. It is flat. Stop with the lie!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
So many traditional MMOs spend huge amounts of time and money developing assets that solely exist to fuel leveling, which many players find tedious to begin with. Leveling zones and dungeons in MMOs of almost any age past brand new are basically barren. The story content of these games is consumed once at best by most players.
I remember when I started playing Ultima Online many years ago and I had no concept initially of 'maxxing' my character before I set about achieving my goals in game. I simply did the things I thought were fun and progressed as I did. We need a system much more like that.
Horizontal progression could mean starting from a more rounded character and becoming more specialized (not necessarily more powerful) or nearly the opposite, starting with a very limited character and learning more and more skills to become more rounded. In Archeage, you could level every skill tree in the game on a single character by respeccing, FF XIV does something similar.
I think traditional questing and/or mob grinding (for experience) can be eliminated altogether. Allow raiding, dungeon content, and pvp from the beginning of the game essentially. Make the progression of these activities tied more to game knowledge, teamwork, and smart play. This is similar in concept to how a very new player can contribute effectively to PvP in EVE even though they have very limited skill points. Make a great game world and don't waste it on content that will be consumed and abandoned while the elder game players simply sit in a capital city. Find a better way to encourage players to interact and grow the community aspects of the game without creating a sense that you have to do certain things (like join a large dominant guild) to be relevant. Emphasize player crafting and trading in the game's economy; this has been a fairly strong theme in the MMOs I played where I felt community was important. Since you aren't wasting 30 zones of your game's space on quest content, emphasize exploring more. If you have to have a time consuming progression aspect to give players a constant purpose then try something like dungeon grinding for currency or rare drops; at least that can be a compelling social experience and a way for players to fraternize.
Didn't mean to ramble. I'm too sleepy to post more coherently at the moment. Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the issue over the years.
2 month for 1 set of item that will get throw away in next update ? no
half years for one last level so i can wear the gears that will outdated soon ?
Reward must worth the grind , or else it's pointless to grind . And the grind must be acceptable .
Also , you wrong in one thing. "grinds" is heart of RPG and "gamble" is soul of RPG .
Without grind , you don't feel the progression aka worth it .
And without the kiss of goddess of luck , you don't feel fun .
Difficult =|= Grind. Putting in a little effort shouldn't be a "grind."
"Grind" is defined differently by every single player. Some players actually enjoy what others call "grind."
"Grind" is a negative descriptive. If a video game is all about the negative, why bother playing it?
I've tried a couple of replies and got way off-track. I'll leave this as is and just say, One player's "grind" is another player's "fun."
VG
Most of the power gains come through gaining new skills. You don't really need levels to gain new skills.
There is only one thing that I do suggest, however. Stop forcing people in to roles at the start. Let us all start with a clean slate of our own choice, and then allow us to choose what we progress in as we play.
For example... the World of Darkness tabletop rpg has an interesting idea. If you want, you can start as a plain old human being. You are given fewer points than a special character like a vampire or werewolf, but you can put them wherever you like until all the points are spent. Then later you can become a supernatural. This usually depends on the game you're playing and what you do. So why can't we do that? Same with the social progress we make... why can't we start neutral and work our way with choices and why do we HAVE to be good or evil, why can't we remain levels and neutral and not be penalized for it? There isn't a single computer game that allows either of those methods of progression.
The alternative of linear progression is what was being argued against in this thread it seems (linear progression being the style where you are set into a class or set of specific skills and can only progress in that narrow band).
Also there is such a thing as horizontal progression vs vertical progression. Vertical progression is the common RPG format of players getting statistically stronger over time, but there is such a thing as horizontal progression which instead of unlocking higher stats as you level, you are unlocking more and more customization and features to tailor and specialize your character.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It is not horizontal progression, it is about choice.
Everyone has personal interests. For example... I loath doing the dishes, hence I generally try avoid cooking unless I can make someone else do the dishes for me. I can cook all right, but am not a chef because it is not my focus. But I am good with computers because I'm interested in them, and long ago discovered that it's must easier for me to fix a problem with something I use all day every day than it is to call a tech to fix it. I've spent many years learning on my own how to build them, how to test them, etc. I did not go to school for this. It's a hobby but I love it as much as they drive me crazy. But my ultimate skills lie in the hotel industry. I went to school for business, and I've spent almost a decade and a half in the industry slowly increasing my knowledge and customer service skills. I'm good at it because it's my focus and I love it. It's the same with everyone. And that's the same way it should be in a game. Not everyone can be good at everything but you can be good at what you choose to focus on. It's not horizontal progression, it's just progression.
I'm tired of being forced in to a role at the beginning. If I'm a ranger, why can't I also learn to use a sword? I may not be anywhere near as good at it but it should be my choice. If I'm a forger, why can't I also learn how to cook or how to sew or anything else? And why can't I decide to change what I know without losing all the progression in the past skills in 2 seconds flat?
Progression should be MY choice, not forced on me. I hope that makes sense.
Linear progression, exponential progression, non-linear progression, vertical progression, horizontal progression, etc. These are all terms that have their own definitions and meaning because there is a considerable distinction in their uses.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There is a major different in the construct of most level based games. Maybe you should find another hobby if all you seek is cheap quest to push you to level cap with no roleplaying at all. Not really but just showing you how you sound.
The biggest different between levels and most other games is that you usually feed content into levels and out level content or stuck on a strict linear path. Or levels are just markers that mean nothing in the first place.
Progression can happen without you going through the 1-whatever and going through content carefully arranged for you to do that.
I could have misread the OP, but that was my take on it.
VG
1) Grind
Having to repeat something you don't enjoy is a grind and OP has asked if there is a way to remove the grind. OP has related grind to unchallenging content, but grind is just repeating something you don't like.
The solution: make the activity more enjoyable. For one group of players, that might mean increasing the difficulty. For others, it might mean writing better quality stories. For others, it might mean making everything group based.
Every player has a different set of preferences, so grind is unavoidable unless your game involves no repetition at all.
2) Challenge
OP also talked about why MMOs aren't that challenging and talked about improved AI. They key to any game is "achievable challenges". Beating a challenge provides you with a kick of endorphins (or dopamine, i forget which) which is pleasurable. Its a key reason why people love computer games. However, make the challenge too hard and people can't complete it. Make it too easy and its no longer a challenge. Its very difficult to balance static content.
So, more intelligent AI may be the solution. However, eventually you'll figure out that the AI will adapt to you and is designed so that you can always beat it, so its not really a challenge.
I think adaptive strategy is the key. Too many games make their fights about stats: got the right gear then executing a simple rotation will win. Make it all about the strategy: good strategy and you'll win, bad strategy and you'll lose. Would mean you'll start off losing, learn the strategy, execute the strategy then win.
3) Alternative Progression
I'm a massive fan of horizontal progression. I believe it is the future of MMOs. Horizontal progression is all about specialisation. It still allows you to get better, to progress your character, to allow you to complete new challenges and play the game in new and interesting ways, whilst not introducing power gaps.
Simple example:
At level 1, my warrior has 100 health and 100 strength.
In a vertical system, at lvl 2 I would have 110 health and 110 strength
In a horizontal system, at lvl 2 I gain the choice to have 110 health and 90 strength, or remain balanced.
In the vertical system, I'm 10% better each level, creating power gaps, segregating the community and making it harder to play together.
In the horizontal system, I'm equivalent to the level 1 player, but more specialised. This allows me to play together with all my friends, but allows me to personalise my playstyle, adding depth to the game.
You can still have levels in a horizontal progression system, its just that each level would open up more options, rather than just making you statistically better.
Now, there aren't many games out there that use horizontal progression. LotRO used vertical progression for leveling, but horizontal at endgame when it first released and it worked great. It meant those leveling up felt they were progressing in the usual manner. At endgame, everyone could participate in everything, but your specialisation (or lack thereof) played a massive role in what tactics you had to use to complete endgame content. For example, you'd prefer to use the low-health-but-high-mitgation tank on bosses, but the high-health-but-lower-mits tank for pulling adds as they can soak up the burst damage easier.
PvP games often prefer to use horizontal progression as well. Something like CoD uses mostly horizontal progression - more damage but slower rate of fire. Better accuracy at the cost damage. Silencer but lower range etc. It still gives you something to work for, things to unlock to progress yourself, whilst not unbalancing the game and making people massively overpowered.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Perhaps it isn't the rpg but the player who has the problem? Why does your game have to be an rpg? Why that label? Why not call it something that doesn't have rpg associated?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"