Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.
Gamers brought this upon themselves. I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold. The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre. This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today. Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.
We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
Yup. Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.
P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game. How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?
In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part". Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP. That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.
P2W is a complete misnomer - it's pay to advance faster.
Sometimes you say the silliest things :awesome:
You know better than that. Or at least you should.
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
That is exactly the basis behind the majority of most cash shops.
so are they P2W, are they a misnomer, or is it "pay to advance faster?"
Make up your mind.
I think you missed my point.
What you quoted right there is what I consider actually worthy of the label "pay to win" - lets say there ia a hypothetical game where as you spend money in the cash shop you get gear that puts you in god-mode, and the only way to obtain this is from the cash shop.
Other players who didn't spend any money in this hypothetical game can never catch up to you as the god-mode gear is not available via normal gameplay.
That is pay to win - and yet when p2w is brought up by many players what they really mean us pay to advance faster.
I hope that clears it up.
I agree with your explanation, but it is incomplete. Again define faster.
A week or a month is a huge difference. Required time to get cashshop currency by grinding can mean to some (or most?) also impossible too.
I asked a question some pages ago and didn't see an answer. I still want an answer. Anyway, my question is:
Does this materially affect anything outside of the endgame? If you want to argue that there is no endgame, then does it materially affect anything outside of high level gameplay?
Like I said the first time you asked it, it's a competitive game with open PvP in this game after level 45. It's possible to hit level 45 within the first 24 hours of playing the game, so we're not talking "endgame" here.
Is it possible for you to enjoy the game without being overly affected by what gear other people have, or whether they can one shot you at any point in time if they feel like? The answer to that varies from person to person. If you aren't overly competitive, don't like PvP, and just content with doing your own thing at your own pace, than maybe this won't bother you too much.
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.
It's pay to advance faster.
It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.
So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.
Those with a crapton of time can get there.
Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.
The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.
Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many.
Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level. Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W. Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.
So you are talking about player skill playing a part.
Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:
1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't 2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much 3. Player skill - yeah self explanatory 4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....
Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will
But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?
Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.
So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...
Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?
How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd.
It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?
What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?
How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn rewards instead of just buying them...
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
A large chunk was gonna stop playing for legion at the end of the month anyway (and probably be back 1-2 months later), so honestly Daum/PA can do what they want lol wont matter for now.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Yeah, I do see a problem - one person is actually earning their progression through the game, the other is just being handed progression because they can afford to pay off the game devs to allow them ways to meet or exceed other players in game "work." There are plenty of non-gaming analogies I could give but I don't do those anymore as hardcore gamers can't admit the "real" world exists... If someone doesn't have the time to keep up with the no life players other than buying progression, then the developers of the game fail at making a fair, well designed progression game. Allowing gamers to throw money at developers in order to fix a games bad design is a slap in the face to every player. And at the end of the day, players who play more should be more progressed - it just shouldn't be such a large margin that the only choices of being competitive are no life 24/7 or pay $$$$.
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.
It's pay to advance faster.
It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.
So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.
Those with a crapton of time can get there.
Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.
The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.
Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many.
Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level. Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W. Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.
So you are talking about player skill playing a part.
Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:
1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't 2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much 3. Player skill - yeah self explanatory 4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....
Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will
But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?
Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.
So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...
Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?
How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd.
It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?
What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?
How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn rewards instead of just buying them...
Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.
On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:
1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time
2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well
Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.
Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.
Your example missed a whole third party:
1 time 2 money 3 time and money
1 and 2 will never touch 3
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
It's quite simple and principled: anything that gives me an advantage over you is the way things should be. Anything that gives you an advantage over me is likely cheating that should be cracked down upon, or at best really bad game design.
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.
It's pay to advance faster.
It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.
So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.
Those with a crapton of time can get there.
Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.
The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.
Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many.
Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level. Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W. Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.
So you are talking about player skill playing a part.
Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:
1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't 2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much 3. Player skill - yeah self explanatory 4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....
Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will
But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?
Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.
So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...
Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?
How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd.
It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?
What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?
How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn rewards instead of just buying them...
Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.
On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:
1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time
2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well
Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.
Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.
Your example missed a whole third party:
1 time 2 money 3 time and money
1 and 2 will never touch 3
Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
Enough that I wouldn't just leave it out completely.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.
It's pay to advance faster.
It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.
So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.
Those with a crapton of time can get there.
Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.
The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.
Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many.
Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level. Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W. Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.
So you are talking about player skill playing a part.
Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:
1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't 2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much 3. Player skill - yeah self explanatory 4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....
Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will
But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?
Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.
So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...
Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?
How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd.
It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?
What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?
How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn rewards instead of just buying them...
Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.
On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:
1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time
2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well
Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.
Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.
Your example missed a whole third party:
1 time 2 money 3 time and money
1 and 2 will never touch 3
Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
Enough that I wouldn't just leave it out completely.
Well, how do you know? How do you know that it is a measurable factor?
I didn't say anything about a measurable factor or how many of anything, just that they exist. There are obviously people with time and money. Probably most whales. If you want to see how measurable a factor it is I would start by looking at the average whales playtime. It's not going to be a majority by any means.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that?
Money should not factor into this equation. The only qualities that should factor into a gaming equation are the inherent skills and abilities that you possess and perform to accomplish your goals of winning, not those inherent skills and abilities possessed by others that you "bought" by acquiring items that they accomplished. That is the very definition of "paying" to win.
You are in essence "hiring" someone to help "win" the game for you.
It's funny people are complaining about this like it will destroy the game when in fact it will bring in more people. It's really no different than what has kept GW2 afloat a this time and I expect mass amounts of new items to be added every patch now This should have been like this from day one tbh, but better late than never.
Oh and this is not pay to win if you compare it to some of the other cash shop games out there.So many drama queens lol
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that? There is none.
In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?
Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer, ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......
See what I am getting at?
BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.
So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
Well now you're just getting philosophical. Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here. In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best. And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that? There is none.
In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?
Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer, ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......
See what I am getting at?
BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.
So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
It doesn't matter if you win.
The guy paying for monopoly money could lose. He still payed for monopoly money with real cash. That's the P2W part. Paying for an in game advantage with real money is P2W.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that? There is none.
In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?
Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer, ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......
See what I am getting at?
BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.
So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
Well now you're just getting philosophical. Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here. In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best. And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.
I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.
The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20
So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity.
If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
That's because P2W is paying for an advantage. The severity of the advantage dictates the severity of the P2W, along with price obviously.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
i think they reached their limit at being a shill for Daum, this one was probably the tipping point for them
Aren't you this website's official, grade-A, no-holds-barred Daum cheerleader? C'mon! Where's that BDO spirit? There's got to be a silver lining to this somewhere! I mean, according to you, every other boneheaded decision they've made was actually brilliant. This one must be, too!
i think they reached their limit at being a shill for Daum, this one was probably the tipping point for them
Oh well. I just initiated my chargeback (thank goodness I purchased through Paypal). Originally, I was just going to let the fact that I don't play much sit pat - I put my time in, discovered it wasn't that great a game, and was out the $50. You win some and you lose some.
This, however, changes things - now it's become a bait-and-switch situation. So a chargeback it is. Will I succeed? Who knows? But it doesn't hurt to try.
Well quit playing these free 2 play games and maybe they will quit releasing free to play games. This crap never started until the gamers became cheap. I don't feel sorry for yall you brought it and keep bringing it upon yourself.. Nothing new here and more games coming this way that will be using the same damn model. So keep jumping ship onto the next one that's free 2 play then the next and next and next.. You never learn.
Well quit playing these free 2 play games and maybe they will quit releasing free to play games. This crap never started until the gamers became cheap. I don't feel sorry for yall you brought it and keep bringing it upon yourself.. Nothing new here and more games coming this way that will be using the same damn model. So keep jumping ship onto the next one that's free 2 play then the next and next and next.. You never learn.
It's not F2P yet, still costs $30 bucks.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in Daum corporate HQ tomorrow morning when the millions of chargeback requests flood into their financial department. I wonder how that's going to go over?
Also this is not the first time one could have amassed a lot of money in BDO.
Remember the event that made black stones drop like crazy? I know many that farmed for an absurd amount of hours per day for the whole event (That was extended to 2 weeks I believe) then waited until the event ended.
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that? There is none.
In a multi faceted game like Black Desert - what is "winning"?
Ask a PvP player you get one answer, ask a horse tamer you'll get a different answer, ask a fisherman, or pve grind player etc......
See what I am getting at?
BDO doesn't have a clear "win" condition (like Monopoly) and the game is played in many different ways.
So the objective of Black Desert is not a simple "win" condition
Well now you're just getting philosophical. Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here. In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best. And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.
I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.
The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20
So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity.
If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
Its precisely because a +10 equipped player can't beat someone with even +16 equipment that the whole P2W thing is a huge problem. Why should people with more real money than others be allowed to dominate in a game? it doesn't matter whether its in PVE or in PVP, but the fact that BDO has such a large PVP factor in it, from node conquest to guild v guild wars makes it doubly worse.
Comments
I agree with your explanation, but it is incomplete. Again define faster.
A week or a month is a huge difference. Required time to get cashshop currency by grinding can mean to some (or most?) also impossible too.
Is it possible for you to enjoy the game without being overly affected by what gear other people have, or whether they can one shot you at any point in time if they feel like? The answer to that varies from person to person. If you aren't overly competitive, don't like PvP, and just content with doing your own thing at your own pace, than maybe this won't bother you too much.
What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?
How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn rewards instead of just buying them...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Your example missed a whole third party:
1 time
2 money
3 time and money
1 and 2 will never touch 3
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that?
Money should not factor into this equation. The only qualities that should factor into a gaming equation are the inherent skills and abilities that you possess and perform to accomplish your goals of winning, not those inherent skills and abilities possessed by others that you "bought" by acquiring items that they accomplished. That is the very definition of "paying" to win.
You are in essence "hiring" someone to help "win" the game for you.
Oh and this is not pay to win if you compare it to some of the other cash shop games out there.So many drama queens lol
Well now you're just getting philosophical. Winning may indeed have a different meaning to different people but that's not what we're talking about here. In the context of BDO, or any MMO for that matter, the definition of winning can be narrowly construed as being competitively the best. And being competitively the best in a game like BDO would be defined as achieving the upper hand on your opponent through levels, gear, or in game silver that gives you purchasing power to get the upper hand on any, or all, of the aforementioned. You, being a competitive PvP-centric player, know this, or at least should know this, better than most.
The guy paying for monopoly money could lose. He still payed for monopoly money with real cash. That's the P2W part. Paying for an in game advantage with real money is P2W.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/This, however, changes things - now it's become a bait-and-switch situation. So a chargeback it is. Will I succeed? Who knows? But it doesn't hurt to try.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Remember the event that made black stones drop like crazy? I know many that farmed for an absurd amount of hours per day for the whole event (That was extended to 2 weeks I believe) then waited until the event ended.
asdasdasd
Why should people with more real money than others be allowed to dominate in a game? it doesn't matter whether its in PVE or in PVP, but the fact that BDO has such a large PVP factor in it, from node conquest to guild v guild wars makes it doubly worse.