It is truly shocking to me how many people are ok with buying in game money with RL currency. I swear even 5 years ago it was not this accepted. I wonder if there is something I'm missing.
I'm also confused by the OP. I guess it all hinges on what someone considers "grinding". MMO's and character building through at least some grinding will always be there. Not sure how a developer could create enough content to keep people busy if there was no grinding at all.
I agree that a lot depends on what qualifies as grinding. Doing something once certainly isn't. Doing the same simple, repetitive activity a large number of times surely is. To me, the cutoff is that if you've done an activity enough times to demonstrate that you're proficient at it and no longer have to particularly pay attention, if you're required to do that activity even more, that's grinding. It's more an "I've done this enough and want to move on" than a hard count.
But no one in this thread is claiming that pay to win is a good thing. It's more a question of, would you rather be shot or poisoned? The obvious answer is neither, but I'm basically saying that I'd prefer to be threatened with the one that is easier to detect and avoid.
Sorry, but I disagree.. Nothing is worse for MMOs than pay-to-win.. Pay-to-win just rewards those who have disposable income and says "hey.. your doing good in life.. have a cookie.. but that guy over there with no cash.. f that guy".. Grinding may be tedious, but at least it is a level playing field..
A terrible game with a level playing field is still a terrible game. I want games that are fun to play. If a game is awful, tacking on several additional reasons why it is awful does no harm, and may actually help the situation if it's more obvious that I should avoid it.
I hate P2W - like others, I view it as cheating, it is just cheating sanctioned by the developers (because you are buying something to circumvent the game)
I also hate grinding. However, a lot of people use the term "grind" incorrectly. Just because you repeat something a lot, or something takes a long time, doesn't make it a grind. It only becomes a grind if you don't enjoy the activity itself.
For me, whilst I'd not like to see either grind2win or pay2win, I prefer grind2win. Its a level playing field, everyone gets the same product for the same price so it is "fair" to begin with. Players are rewarded for playing the game so it is purely down to the player to determine how good or bad they are by setting out how much time they are willing to invest. However, everyone can eventually win, it'll just take some people longer than others.
Pay2win, on the other hand, is unfair. People with money have a massive advantage over those without, and those with no money can never "win", regardless of time spent, because certain features / content / levels / items / whatever will be permanently denied them.
In the more general sense, I do agree that time is more valuable than money but in a real world sense, it's easier to free up time to get the most out of an entertainment product than it is to free up money, especially when considering the typical demographics of gamers. Being entertainment products, time and money aren't the only factors - having fun is another - and in an MMO where you are playing with lots of other people, I value fairness (grinding) over imbalance (p2w). But, I also wouldn't play a game with excessive grinding, p2w or massive power gaps.
I think winning should depend on how well players do something in the game, not just how much time or money they throw at it. I'm fine with having a modest entry fee of time and/or money before players can "win", but once it turns into a long slog requiring a ton of either, that's a problem.
There are some zones in games that are grinding and I love it just because I can go on autopilot with some good music playing in my headphone and just enjoy. It becomes like a meditation. I get so good at it that it looks like botting.
There are also certain events and world bosses I do nearly everyday not so much for the rewards but because I just like the event so much.
The best grinding doesn't feel like grinding and the worst grinding feels like it's only there to slow players down.
I don't do much PvP so P2W doesn't bother me. If someone wants to spend a lot of money in PvE then go ahead and enjoy, it doesn't bother my gameplay. If I was into competitive PvP I wouldn't like it much.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
By definition yes however some repetitive activities might feel like a grind to some but be fun or at least enjoyable to others. Grind is very subjective, pay to win is not. Therefore you can't compare the two.
By definition yes however some repetitive activities might feel like a grind to some but be fun or at least enjoyable to others. Grind is very subjective, pay to win is not. Therefore you can't compare the two.
To the contrary, pay to win is very subjective. Even in games where every account must pay exactly the same amount in order to have access to the game at all with no opportunity to pay the developers more, there are often advantages to be had from having multiple accounts. There are also often gold sellers who will sell in-game advantages even if the developers won't.
There is grind/time expenditure to win. But there is only so much you can "win" that way.
There is cash shop to win. But typically that type of "win' is more a convenience or advantage - not really a win. Unless you are a hard core raider racing to a world or server first, and then any convenience or advantage can be a pretty big deal.
There is pay to win, which to me is when you pay money to get something valuable that other people have to "work" for. In other words, what you get for your money is something, the having of which is itself a 'win."
And then there is pay others to win. This has become common in WoW, where players pay another group or guild to take them along and defeat some raid boss (for epic loots) for them. I really hate this one, personally.
But that is the way of the world. Take any prize, and there will be people trying to shortcut getting at that prize.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The whole "Time vs. Money" argument is a crock of shit and always was. If you don't have the time to play a game at a level you want to, then don't play the game. Don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone.
What portion of players actually have time to grind ? Is that portion the majority ? Or is it the minority ? If that's the minority (it is) then your argument is moot, because in the sentence "don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone" , "everyone" actually refers to the majority.
It is truly shocking to me how many people are ok with buying in game money with RL currency. I swear even 5 years ago it was not this accepted. I wonder if there is something I'm missing.
While I generally despise cash shops, if I'm going to participate in the cash shop, I'd rather do it through an intermediary currency. It helps keep the direct access to my money away from the game company, and keeps me from making too many impulse purchases. (Buy CS currency, then spend CS currency on item). The two step method of RL money to CS currency to item helps me discipline myself more than a system of RL money to item would.
An intermediate CS currency also allows for the company to lure me with multiple discount levels, one at the RL-to-CS level, and another at the CS-to-item level. That can be pretty important to me, on a rather restricted fixed income. Having a single interface to the real world probably benefits the game company by allowing a simplified banking interface, across multiple countries (and currencies). And if the game itself has mechanisms to supplement (reward) the customer for in-game achievements or activities directly credited to the account via CS currency, it's a definite bonus. (TPs earned in-game, in the case of LotRO).
Okay, this whole RL to CS to item line of thought made me think of how PWE runs their games. Now, I've got to go lay down.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Any game worth playing (besides games of chance) rewards investment and dedication to the game.
Any game that allows sanctioned cheating by paying money to circumvent the rules of the game is not worth playing.
The whole "Time vs. Money" argument is a crock of shit and always was. If you don't have the time to play a game at a level you want to, then don't play the game. Don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone.
Money buys most things in real life. Enjoy that and leave games to gamers.
Some games actually try to have interesting content, and not just rely on in-game rewards to get you to do something stupid. For example, all of the good games, and even a lot of games that aren't very good. Playing a game should be fun, not something you have to slog through to get rewards that don't exist outside of a game that you don't even like.
If you don't like the content, don't play the game???
What if you actually like the content, but not the grind ? Examples :
- Raiding dungeons with your friends is fun (1), raiding the same dungeon over and over for months in order to get the required gear for all you guildmates to get to the next dungeon is not fun. (this is World of warcraft)
- Crafting can be fun, unless you are required to craft ten thousand useless items that require tons of material just to get access to the rest of the story (Blade and Soul)
(1) : at least if you don't spoil yourself on some cheating website that explains to you how to defeat the encounters
Nilden said: Everyone has to manage the same amount of time, not the same amount of money.
See, same thing - you either make money or play game.
It is your choice how to spent your time, that does not mean everyone should spent their time like you do. The no-lifer is no more entitled than the one with life and less spare time.
We went through this argument already several times...it is a moot argument.
It's a level playing field because time is a constant. You only get 24 hrs in a day no matter how much you pay.
Money is also finite...
Your argument is moot.
Everyone has to manage the same amount of time, not the same amount of money.
That and the fact that money is, indeed, not finite.
Well yeah that too, the rich person can always earn more money.
A rich person doesn't even have to "earn" money. They put their money to work to "earn" their money for them. That's where this whole fallacy of comparing money and work to time falls flat on its face.
Nilden said: Everyone has to manage the same amount of time, not the same amount of money.
See, same thing - you either make money or play game.
It is your choice how to spent your time, that does not mean everyone should spent their time like you do. The no-lifer is no more entitled than the one with life and less spare time.
We went through this argument already several times...it is a moot argument.
So you can't have someone filthy rich who does nothing but play video games?
I find how you call someone able to dedicate their time a no-lifer an obvious sign of jealousy.
Just a guess but I'm betting you never go to twitch and watch streamers. Are the people playing video games for a living no-lifers too?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
It's a level playing field because time is a constant. You only get 24 hrs in a day no matter how much you pay.
Money is also finite...
Your argument is moot.
Everyone has to manage the same amount of time, not the same amount of money.
Some people die young. Even over the short term, some people are busier with other, non-gaming things than others. It's not a fluke that, at least in America, working longer hours is pretty strongly correlated with making more money.
Comments
But no one in this thread is claiming that pay to win is a good thing. It's more a question of, would you rather be shot or poisoned? The obvious answer is neither, but I'm basically saying that I'd prefer to be threatened with the one that is easier to detect and avoid.
There are also certain events and world bosses I do nearly everyday not so much for the rewards but because I just like the event so much.
The best grinding doesn't feel like grinding and the worst grinding feels like it's only there to slow players down.
I don't do much PvP so P2W doesn't bother me. If someone wants to spend a lot of money in PvE then go ahead and enjoy, it doesn't bother my gameplay. If I was into competitive PvP I wouldn't like it much.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Grind is very subjective, pay to win is not. Therefore you can't compare the two.
There is no such thing as even playing field, being it sports, video games or any competitive endeavor.
Your argument is moot.
What a ridiculous statement.
The uneven playing field is not the problem. The problem lies on basis and cause of that inequality.
There is cash shop to win. But typically that type of "win' is more a convenience or advantage - not really a win. Unless you are a hard core raider racing to a world or server first, and then any convenience or advantage can be a pretty big deal.
There is pay to win, which to me is when you pay money to get something valuable that other people have to "work" for. In other words, what you get for your money is something, the having of which is itself a 'win."
And then there is pay others to win. This has become common in WoW, where players pay another group or guild to take them along and defeat some raid boss (for epic loots) for them. I really hate this one, personally.
But that is the way of the world. Take any prize, and there will be people trying to shortcut getting at that prize.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That and the fact that money is, indeed, not finite.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/An intermediate CS currency also allows for the company to lure me with multiple discount levels, one at the RL-to-CS level, and another at the CS-to-item level. That can be pretty important to me, on a rather restricted fixed income. Having a single interface to the real world probably benefits the game company by allowing a simplified banking interface, across multiple countries (and currencies). And if the game itself has mechanisms to supplement (reward) the customer for in-game achievements or activities directly credited to the account via CS currency, it's a definite bonus. (TPs earned in-game, in the case of LotRO).
Okay, this whole RL to CS to item line of thought made me think of how PWE runs their games. Now, I've got to go lay down.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
- Raiding dungeons with your friends is fun (1), raiding the same dungeon over and over for months in order to get the required gear for all you guildmates to get to the next dungeon is not fun. (this is World of warcraft)
- Crafting can be fun, unless you are required to craft ten thousand useless items that require tons of material just to get access to the rest of the story (Blade and Soul)
(1) : at least if you don't spoil yourself on some cheating website that explains to you how to defeat the encounters
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
It is your choice how to spent your time, that does not mean everyone should spent their time like you do. The no-lifer is no more entitled than the one with life and less spare time.
We went through this argument already several times...it is a moot argument.
A rich person doesn't even have to "earn" money. They put their money to work to "earn" their money for them. That's where this whole fallacy of comparing money and work to time falls flat on its face.
I find how you call someone able to dedicate their time a no-lifer an obvious sign of jealousy.
Just a guess but I'm betting you never go to twitch and watch streamers. Are the people playing video games for a living no-lifers too?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I do not see any point you are trying to make here...it is a job like any other, what matters is whether you do anything beside your duties.
You just again describe some outlier case...