I did miss something from the previous posts. What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price? Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
No not really because they have falsely advertised their game. Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.
*Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*
It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good. So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens. Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore. So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
Missing the point entirely. Once upon a time long ago the gaming industry was made up of gamers that built games for other gamers. They catered to what the customers wanted and things were good.
Fast forward a few years later and now the gaming industry is made up of corporate giants who expect that gamers cater to whatever drivel they force upon them with zero repercussion. I don't take for granted the fact that profits directly influenced advancements in game development, I also know that almost every conglomerate is where it is because it's stepped on a few heads to get there, but gamers need to stand up and show a little spine towards being straight up lied to, otherwise this will continue to be the norm.
Rant over.
But they didn't lie. People have already posted an early statement by the dev saying that this could, and probably would happen. So what now? The restaurant analogy is totally correct, except that the restaurant told you in advance that the menu would change.
People like you are why we can't have nice things.
Actually it's because of immature man-children charging back legitimate purchases at the drop of a hat. Daum did their best to let people know what was coming, blind fanboys not listening isn't their problem.
I totally agree with people who will stop spending in the cash shop because of this change, but charging back the box price is a sad and unjustified move here. You bought it, you played it. They changed it exactly how they said they would. It's hardly rocket science.
I can already see how things will unfold and i am pretty confident about this statement... They will start milking people whit allot of cash first , selling costumes for only 20mil , then slowly going up in price when they notice that sales aren't as good as they want them to be. After a while , they will introduce more and more p2w stuff into the game up to the point where they will have to convert to f2p due to people leaving the game and after that .. well... game over.
The problem with players like you is that you don't do your "due diligence".
I could understand if this was years ago, mmo's were still new, and there wasn't much experience as to what these games could be or what their pay models were.
but at this point in the game, especially with the internet displaying every post, clip, statement, interview, there really is no excuse.
If you are the type of person who has "concerns" then before you buy the game you really should scour every little bit of detail to learn what the game would be about and what "could" happen. Though in truth probably just assuming that "anything could happen" is the better way to go.
This way you don't purchase something that you will regret later. Otherwise, this just feels like an investment in drama for drama's sake.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I did miss something from the previous posts. What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price? Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
No not really because they have falsely advertised their game. Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.
*Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*
It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good. So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens. Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore. So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
Missing the point entirely. Once upon a time long ago the gaming industry was made up of gamers that built games for other gamers. They catered to what the customers wanted and things were good.
Fast forward a few years later and now the gaming industry is made up of corporate giants who expect that gamers cater to whatever drivel they force upon them with zero repercussion. I don't take for granted the fact that profits directly influenced advancements in game development, I also know that almost every conglomerate is where it is because it's stepped on a few heads to get there, but gamers need to stand up and show a little spine towards being straight up lied to, otherwise this will continue to be the norm.
Rant over.
You think that the people making games aren't gamers themselves? A whole lot of them could make more money working shorter hours elsewhere. Especially but not exclusively programmers and IT people, as those are skills that transfer well for jobs that are in demand well outside of the gaming industry. Nearly the only reason to get a job programming a game as opposed to some corporate infrastructure that you don't care about other than for a paycheck is if you like games.
The problem with players like you is that you don't do your "due diligence".
Who decides how much "due diligence" you need to do and how much do you have to do before you know you're done? Here's a news flash, companies lie to get your money. Finding a trustworthy and accurate source of information is difficult. If someone felt they researched the subject well and came to a conclusion you disagreed with, were they wrong or were you?
"BDO is classified as an ongoing service (take note of this... it's important for later).
PM Joshkua stated on their forums that there wouldn't be any P2W elements (an authorized representative of our version of BDO). Add-on's (pets, Costmetics etc) are purchasable for the product, BDO and are considered an investment/enhancement to the product. They're now introducing P2W elements.
Any written/verbal statement by an authorized representative of the product on their official communication mediums (posts, twitter, twitch live feeds etc) is legally binding in the EU and most states of the US. In the EU any ambiguity in statements etc are to go in the favour of the client/end user.
By introducing P2W and defying the statement from PM Joskhua Daum/Kaka have committed contractual fraud and false advertising. Therefor... All payments made related to the product are refundable via chargeback or Section 75 and depending on your card provider (Visa, MasterCard etc) can be reclaimed from 570days prior to the claim. Remember the important bit... on-going contract... Generally claims are possible for a timespan of 120 days. However there are a few exceptions including subscriptions, ongoing contracts and development investment/staged payments.... these carry a timeframe of up to 570 days with Visa."
Also note that if Kaka is still operating out of the EU then the EU regulations and protections apply to all clients and not just those residing within the EU.
Also daum is now sending out threatening e-mails to people confirmed via reddit
Greetings,
Due to recent events regarding our last announcement, we started to see a rise of the amount of chargebacks requested by our players. We feel that any situation involving money requires as much information as possible, and would like to make sure you are aware of what a chargeback is, and what consequences come with it.
First of all, what is a chargeback? A chargeback is requesting a refund from your bank or payment provider, bypassing the company that sold/provided the product. Bear in mind, the selling company will have a chance to investigate and dispute the chargeback.
Chargebacks are broken into two fundamentally different categories: Legitimate and Illegitimate.
Legitimate chargebacks are when you contest a payment because you have not received the goods or services you purchased, or because someone stole your credit card.
An illegitimate chargeback would be requesting your money back, after using a service for several months and deciding you don’t like it anymore.
In either case, it is understandable why someone would wish to get their money back, however, chargebacks should always be done with caution. A chargeback will not only cause you to lose access to the game, but it can also prevent you from purchasing it in the future. More importantly, we will investigate each chargeback, individually. If the chargeback is proven to be illegitimate, this could go farther than just the denial of your refund. Your Credit Score could be impacted. (“Creditworthiness” attached to each person, this is usually something mortgage companies and financial institutions will look into, before approving credit or offering services).
To conclude, requesting chargebacks should be done after cautious investigation from your part to know all of the possible consequences. Where a finalized chargeback would lead to the withdrawing of your game access, a cancelled chargeback will have no lasting effect on your account.
To allow you time to consider your decision, and fully assess the impact these changes will have on your enjoyment of Black Desert Online, we will not take action on your account until the 22nd August, after which time, any account with outstanding chargebacks will be closed.
Kind Regards,
GM Maelstrom
French/English Game Master
Go get your money back! If enough chagebacks are being made against them , credit card company's have no choice but to side whit the consumer.
ps: if u think 20mil is ok for a costume , wait 1 week and check the prices then.
FU p2w
People like this , is what is killing MMORPG.s whining about this crap!! ..... If you have an issue with a game, stop playing it. an DO NOT SPEND A DIME....
You people are to blame with why MMORPG's are not made as much as they once was..This is why most great guilds refuse to play MMO's anymore, you are ruining the industry..... Play the game or don't....
But you people find not just this , reason, but any reason, look at any forum here, about any MMO, and you people are complaining..... Please make your own game.... Like this did, and lets see if you can stay in business... I'm not for P2W at all... But its going to happen in some forms in most games, so we either deal with it, or we don't...
These companys are NOT legally bound with what was said ... the games change for the better of the company to stay in business..They can change what ever they want...
Is it smart for them to go P2W? no... they right way to fight them is to not spend anymore money at all.... That is the right way....But to sit here ,if you did a charge back, they are right, why should you get the game for free..if you did a charge back...
I have already stated that i have soled my account 1 month after i purchased the game .. i have no problem leaving a pixel world... and ok , they might not have said * WE WILL NEVER GO p2w * but they sure as hell made it sound like they will never do it .. there's a thread on bdo forums where it's posted all the interviews and allot of info from which u will deduce whit a logical point of view based on that info that the game will never go p2w and not in this short amount of time anyway.. But all this does not matter .. i resume to my previous sentance .. make a thread *who would of still bought bdo if they stated they will be selling gold after a few patches* that's all the justification i need for my arguments and this thread...
The problem with players like you is that you don't do your "due diligence".
Who decides how much "due diligence" you need to do and how much do you have to do before you know you're done? Here's a news flash, companies lie to get your money. Finding a trustworthy and accurate source of information is difficult. If someone felt they researched the subject well and came to a conclusion you disagreed with, were they wrong or were you?
really they lie?
Or do they only tell "so much". I think the latter is probably more accurate. Daum certainly never lied. I've been following the game from when it was announced and everything that has happened seems to pretty much fall under what was possible for the game.
Should game companies (companies in general) be more transparent about various aspects of their products? Sure! But when there are questions or when something is left out and there is no clear information, the consumer needs to exercise a bit of common sense.
I CONSTANTLY see the "they lied to us" statement on these forums only to then really look at these lies and see that there really wasn't much of a lie or if one were just to open their eyes they would at least hold off and adopt a wait and see attitude.
People have to stop being victims and take responsibility for their lives and in this case "purchases". Stop including your own narratives and if something doesn't add up then just "don't".
If a game is complete "pay to win" (to whatever standard you want to measure that to) in another region, assume that could very well happen in your region.
If something is important to you like never, ever, playing a f2p game and you see that the game is going to be buy to play or even subscription but in other countries it's f2p with generous cash shop then just know that cash shop can come over to you.
Or, be good natured about it and expect the best but prepare for the worst.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem with players like you is that you don't do your "due diligence".
Who decides how much "due diligence" you need to do and how much do you have to do before you know you're done? Here's a news flash, companies lie to get your money. Finding a trustworthy and accurate source of information is difficult. If someone felt they researched the subject well and came to a conclusion you disagreed with, were they wrong or were you?
really they lie?
Or do they only tell "so much". I think the latter is probably more accurate. Daum certainly never lied. I've been following the game from when it was announced and everything that has happened seems to pretty much fall under what was possible for the game.
Should game companies (companies in general) be more transparent about various aspects of their products? Sure! But when there are questions or when something is left out and there is no clear information, the consumer needs to exercise a bit of common sense.
I CONSTANTLY see the "they lied to us" statement on these forums only to then really look at these lies and see that there really wasn't much of a lie or if one were just to open their eyes they would at least hold off and adopt a wait and see attitude.
People have to stop being victims and take responsibility for their lives and in this case "purchases". Stop including your own narratives and if something doesn't add up then just "don't".
If a game is complete "pay to win" (to whatever standard you want to measure that to) in another region, assume that could very well happen in your region.
If something is important to you like never, ever, playing a f2p game and you see that the game is going to be buy to play or even subscription but in other countries it's f2p with generous cash shop then just know that cash shop can come over to you.
Or, be good natured about it and expect the best but prepare for the worst.
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
They stated that at launch there will be no P2W things in game, but when at a later moment in time they will implement it they would inform the community, they did all that so i think when u charge back in can also backfire as it is not always allowed to do so.
It was not false advertising, ppl should read better when they buy something.
Imo its not that bad, they can make a ton of money and that will keep the servers running, im still having fun and a lot of players with me
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
It does not have any consequences if it's justified and allot of people do it .. U might think this is just about the initial purchase of the game , u know the 30$ , it's not! I know for a fact that there are thousands of people who have spent at least 1k+$ on this game. Inducing fear instead of trying to help isn't helping.. I had/have only the best intentions when i opened this thread. I know how addictive and fun this game is , trust me i do! haven't left the house my first 5 days of playing it..but the fact still remains that if we were to start it all over again whit the p2w aspect in the overview being displayed as it should of been and not masked as it was , not many people would buy into this game and i can't do anything else but call this company for what they are , greedy , manipulative , lying bastards...
youtube -
I also find it funny how they are deleting this post and many others of mine from their forum left and right ... The fact that they have released new stuff to the game exactly on the same day as the p2w announcement is also really low just so they can soften the blow a little bit and the 20mil costumes HAH
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
It does not have any consequences if it's justified and allot of people do it .. U might think this is just about the initial purchase of the game , u know the 30$ , it's not! I know for a fact that there are thousands of people who have spent at least 1k+$ on this game. Inducing fear instead of trying to help isn't helping.. I had/have only the best intentions when i opened this thread. I know how addictive and fun this game is , trust me i do! haven't left the house my first 5 days of playing it..but the fact still remains that if we were to start it all over again whit the p2w aspect in the overview being displayed as it should of been and not masked as it was , not many people would buy into this game and i can't do anything else but call this company for what they are , greedy , manipulative , lying bastards...
I also find it funny how they are deleting this post and many others of mine from their forum left and right ... The fact that they have released new stuff to the game exactly on the same day as the p2w announcement is also really low just so they can soften the blow a little bit and the 20mil costumes HAH
Best scumbag company on the internet!
The legitimacy of a claim does not have anything to do with what you "feel" was a wrong-doing or the number of people who submit claims.
Also, it should be clearly stated that while there are no direct consequences to the consumer lodging a complaint, it is ENTIRELY possible to have your credit card revoked by the issuer should they find that your claim is illegitimate and that it is not the first time you've abused the system. So propagating misinformation and inciting people who may be foolish enough to follow you, because you posted something on a forum on the Internet, because you're angry is silly and will likely do more harm than good in the long run. If you think you're helping people, you're not. If you think people aren't aware of chargebacks, they are. The vast majority of card holders have issues a chargeback at some point.
All I will say is good luck to you, but buyer beware. Just like BDO, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
It does not have any consequences if it's justified and allot of people do it .. U might think this is just about the initial purchase of the game , u know the 30$ , it's not! I know for a fact that there are thousands of people who have spent at least 1k+$ on this game. Inducing fear instead of trying to help isn't helping.. I had/have only the best intentions when i opened this thread. I know how addictive and fun this game is , trust me i do! haven't left the house my first 5 days of playing it..but the fact still remains that if we were to start it all over again whit the p2w aspect in the overview being displayed as it should of been and not masked as it was , not many people would buy into this game and i can't do anything else but call this company for what they are , greedy , manipulative , lying bastards...
I also find it funny how they are deleting this post and many others of mine from their forum left and right ... The fact that they have released new stuff to the game exactly on the same day as the p2w announcement is also really low just so they can soften the blow a little bit and the 20mil costumes HAH
Best scumbag company on the internet!
The legitimacy of a claim does not have anything to do with what you "feel" was a wrong-doing or the number of people who submit claims.
Also, it should be clearly stated that while there are no direct consequences to the consumer lodging a complaint, it is ENTIRELY possible to have your credit card revoked by the issuer should they find that your claim is illegitimate and that it is not the first time you've abused the system. So propagating misinformation and inciting people who may be foolish enough to follow you, because you posted something on a forum on the Internet, because you're angry is silly and will likely do more harm than good in the long run. If you think you're helping people, you're not. If you think people aren't aware of chargebacks, they are. The vast majority of card holders have issues a chargeback at some point.
All I will say is good luck to you, but buyer beware. Just like BDO, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Misinformation ??? i am getting my information from the frikin consumer european rights website .... and i do not FEEL that what happened was wrong-doing , it was wrong-doing... and u know this as well but i have a felling that u are either way to invested in the game or ... And i am 100% sure on this one , if enough consumers complain about a product , shit will be done , that's fact. I am not angry and i do not want anyone to follow me and i do not want to incite anything.. i already tolled u i soled my account a while ago I just think that what they are doing is malicious and that company shouldn't be allowed to handle any consumer products... that's all! It's every consumers right to take back their investment if they feel they have been cheated or lied upon.
If u have not logged in the game yet and are against this bs move that they said they will NEVER DO , go ahead and file a chargeback complaint , call paypal or your cc company/bank because it is your right to get your money back
Misleading Advertising
According to the Directive, misleading advertising is any advertising which, in any way, including in its presentation, is capable of:
deceiving the persons to whom it is addressed;
distorting their economic behaviour; or
as a consequence, harming the interests of competitors.
When determining whether advertising is misleading, several factors shall be taken into account. These are:
the characteristics of the goods or services concerned;
the price;
the conditions of delivery of the goods or provision of the services involved;
the nature, attributes and rights of the advertiser.
Just don't get on their login logs starting today and u can get your money back.
I played at launch, then stopped. Can I get a chargeback now? Or is it only for those that didn't play?
It was inevitable that companies would start fighting back against arbitrary chargebacks, just as it was inevitable that some players would start abusing the system to "play for free".
The chargeback system was not intended to remove any need for responsibility by the the consumer.
If u have not logged in the game yet and are against this bs move that they said they will NEVER DO , go ahead and file a chargeback complaint , call paypal or your cc company/bank because it is your right to get your money back
Misleading Advertising
According to the Directive, misleading advertising is any advertising which, in any way, including in its presentation, is capable of:
deceiving the persons to whom it is addressed;
distorting their economic behaviour; or
as a consequence, harming the interests of competitors.
When determining whether advertising is misleading, several factors shall be taken into account. These are:
the characteristics of the goods or services concerned;
the price;
the conditions of delivery of the goods or provision of the services involved;
the nature, attributes and rights of the advertiser.
Just don't get on their login logs starting today and u can get your money back.
I played at launch, then stopped. Can I get a chargeback now? Or is it only for those that didn't play?
If u haven't logged in after today's announcement , u are free to give it a go. If they have u in their login logs after today's announcement , i am pretty sure u can't do much..
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
Please don't ever give financial advice to ANYONE. Seriously.
Here is that standard policy used by any debit/credit card that has the Visa/MC/Amex logo on it. These are the ONLY three reasons you can get a chargeback (if you did a bank draft, then your bank has a different policy, but it's probably fairly similar):
- Authorization error: a transaction was allowed even though the authorization was declined
- Processing error: incorrect calculation on the sales draft, invalid account number, or expired card
- Customer disputes: the customer denies taking part in the transaction, claims purchased merchandise or services were never received and an attempt was already made to resolve the dispute, mail order merchandise was defective, or a promised credit was never processed
Everything else is a no-go. And to make matters even more difficult, with MasterCard the burden of proof lies on you. It’s entirely up to you to know the merchant’s cancellation/return policy, even if they don’t disclose it. They didn’t tell you that you couldn’t cancel after three days? Too bad.
Trying to get a chargeback after 60 days of purchase? Shit out of luck again.
And you better pray you don't lie about even the smallest thing or you'll find out very quickly how fast a chargeback can be reversed.
It was inevitable that companies would start fighting back against arbitrary chargebacks, just as it was inevitable that some players would start abusing the system to "play for free".
The chargeback system was not intended to remove any need for responsibility by the the consumer.
Show me proof where they said that they will be adding p2w mechanics to the game when they launched it .. PLEASE!
Again because no one seems to have a comeback on this one.
IF WE START IT ALL OVER AGAIN and we add the p2w aspect to the equation , would the number of copy's being soled be reduced by 50/75% ...
Let's stop whit the bs already , they lied and they resorted to cheap psychological tactics.
im done , good luck to everyone getting their money back.
If u have not logged in the game yet and are against this bs move that they said they will NEVER DO , go ahead and file a chargeback complaint , call paypal or your cc company/bank because it is your right to get your money back
Misleading Advertising
According to the Directive, misleading advertising is any advertising which, in any way, including in its presentation, is capable of:
deceiving the persons to whom it is addressed;
distorting their economic behaviour; or
as a consequence, harming the interests of competitors.
When determining whether advertising is misleading, several factors shall be taken into account. These are:
the characteristics of the goods or services concerned;
the price;
the conditions of delivery of the goods or provision of the services involved;
the nature, attributes and rights of the advertiser.
Just don't get on their login logs starting today and u can get your money back.
Daum Games was misleading from the very start sticking XingCode3 into the game without letting players know, refused previous refund requests when the game originally came out tried the game a month or later down the line uninstalled it the game is awful, the hackers, and amount of cheating is just pathetic.
On top of this the new Pay 2 Win options, along with Delayed Content Intentionally held back between Korean and EU, and US releases of the game simply to make profit the game just is like Arche Age now not worth playing anymore...
Expect most F2P MMO's to become pay 2 win or pay 2 enjoy in the future the only MMO's I know that don't do such or MOBA better said are games like League OF Legends, Smite, DOTA 2, Heroes OF The Storm, and Over Watch for example every other game I have played by Nexon, Aeria, Trion (Except for Rift), Daum, NCSoft, have all been hardcore Pay 2 Enjoy, or Pay 2 win not worth playing its hard to find anything worth playing these days because they all eventually end up like this.
The only game that might be somewhat fair buying in the future would be revolution online, if they keep the game similiar to what Skyforge has been on the payment model its not as bad...
I don't mind the fact you can buy gear in a game, or RMT in a game being allowed but Daum Games is going to knowingly allow RMT for the sake of profit in game while denying such, and just keep releasing updated gear and such to make other purchased gears become outdated not to mention the true fact that a person spends 1 million dollars in a game can become pay 2 win by just 1 hitting everyone, even EVE Online is Pay 2 Win if you have the millions of dollars you can just instnatly train TItan Pilot and 1 hit everyone.
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
I wouldn't be surprised if credit card companies decided to adopt some preventative measures when customers purchase video games.
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
It does not have any consequences if it's justified and allot of people do it .. U might think this is just about the initial purchase of the game , u know the 30$ , it's not! I know for a fact that there are thousands of people who have spent at least 1k+$ on this game. Inducing fear instead of trying to help isn't helping.. I had/have only the best intentions when i opened this thread. I know how addictive and fun this game is , trust me i do! haven't left the house my first 5 days of playing it..but the fact still remains that if we were to start it all over again whit the p2w aspect in the overview being displayed as it should of been and not masked as it was , not many people would buy into this game and i can't do anything else but call this company for what they are , greedy , manipulative , lying bastards...
I also find it funny how they are deleting this post and many others of mine from their forum left and right ... The fact that they have released new stuff to the game exactly on the same day as the p2w announcement is also really low just so they can soften the blow a little bit and the 20mil costumes HAH
Best scumbag company on the internet!
The legitimacy of a claim does not have anything to do with what you "feel" was a wrong-doing or the number of people who submit claims.
Also, it should be clearly stated that while there are no direct consequences to the consumer lodging a complaint, it is ENTIRELY possible to have your credit card revoked by the issuer should they find that your claim is illegitimate and that it is not the first time you've abused the system. So propagating misinformation and inciting people who may be foolish enough to follow you, because you posted something on a forum on the Internet, because you're angry is silly and will likely do more harm than good in the long run. If you think you're helping people, you're not. If you think people aren't aware of chargebacks, they are. The vast majority of card holders have issues a chargeback at some point.
All I will say is good luck to you, but buyer beware. Just like BDO, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Misinformation ??? i am getting my information from the frikin consumer european rights website .... and i do not FEEL that what happened was wrong-doing , it was wrong-doing... and u know this as well but i have a felling that u are either way to invested in the game or ... And i am 100% sure on this one , if enough consumers complain about a product , shit will be done , that's fact. I am not angry and i do not want anyone to follow me and i do not want to incite anything.. i already tolled u i soled my account a while ago I just think that what they are doing is malicious and that company shouldn't be allowed to handle any consumer products... that's all! It's every consumers right to take back their investment if they feel they have been cheated or lied upon.
Well there will always be a delta between what you know as true and what someone else sees as true. What that is remains to be seen. However, someone should know the consequences should things not go as planned, including not getting a refund, including being held responsible for the chargeback fees, etc. but you know 100% so why shouldn't someone charge it back, right?
This OP is just trying to get people into trouble. He himself has not done it but yeah he is the expert.
Anyway is there like a legal definition of P2W? Do we have a definitive meaning for the term that can stand up to a challenge. How do you prove your claim when even pundits argue about the term.
No there is no real definition of P2W and that's why there is so much discussion about it in my opinion. I don't quite understand how it's possible to get the charge back when people played the game and used the service and all for 5 months or so. I do get the false advertisement argument but i don't understand it fully tbh.
Comments
I totally agree with people who will stop spending in the cash shop because of this change, but charging back the box price is a sad and unjustified move here. You bought it, you played it. They changed it exactly how they said they would. It's hardly rocket science.
I could understand if this was years ago, mmo's were still new, and there wasn't much experience as to what these games could be or what their pay models were.
but at this point in the game, especially with the internet displaying every post, clip, statement, interview, there really is no excuse.
If you are the type of person who has "concerns" then before you buy the game you really should scour every little bit of detail to learn what the game would be about and what "could" happen. Though in truth probably just assuming that "anything could happen" is the better way to go.
This way you don't purchase something that you will regret later. Otherwise, this just feels like an investment in drama for drama's sake.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You people are to blame with why MMORPG's are not made as much as they once was..This is why most great guilds refuse to play MMO's anymore, you are ruining the industry..... Play the game or don't....
But you people find not just this , reason, but any reason, look at any forum here, about any MMO, and you people are complaining..... Please make your own game.... Like this did, and lets see if you can stay in business... I'm not for P2W at all... But its going to happen in some forms in most games, so we either deal with it, or we don't...
These companys are NOT legally bound with what was said ... the games change for the better of the company to stay in business..They can change what ever they want...
Is it smart for them to go P2W? no... they right way to fight them is to not spend anymore money at all.... That is the right way....But to sit here ,if you did a charge back, they are right, why should you get the game for free..if you did a charge back...
But all this does not matter .. i resume to my previous sentance .. make a thread *who would of still bought bdo if they stated they will be selling gold after a few patches* that's all the justification i need for my arguments and this thread...
Or do they only tell "so much". I think the latter is probably more accurate. Daum certainly never lied. I've been following the game from when it was announced and everything that has happened seems to pretty much fall under what was possible for the game.
Should game companies (companies in general) be more transparent about various aspects of their products? Sure! But when there are questions or when something is left out and there is no clear information, the consumer needs to exercise a bit of common sense.
I CONSTANTLY see the "they lied to us" statement on these forums only to then really look at these lies and see that there really wasn't much of a lie or if one were just to open their eyes they would at least hold off and adopt a wait and see attitude.
People have to stop being victims and take responsibility for their lives and in this case "purchases". Stop including your own narratives and if something doesn't add up then just "don't".
If a game is complete "pay to win" (to whatever standard you want to measure that to) in another region, assume that could very well happen in your region.
If something is important to you like never, ever, playing a f2p game and you see that the game is going to be buy to play or even subscription but in other countries it's f2p with generous cash shop then just know that cash shop can come over to you.
Or, be good natured about it and expect the best but prepare for the worst.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I totally agree. For those who don't listen, though, remember that Chargebacks are there for the consumer and you should make use of chargebacks whenever you're unhappy with something you bought, for any reason. It's the only way to make people accountable.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
PayPal already has. Also, people on the Internet seem to believe that this comes completely without any sort of consequences, which is why I have started promoting it over trying to advocate against them doing it. Fortunately there are plenty of forum experts here to help them make sure they get their chargebacks through the system. I'm just wondering how many will be there when the consequences come down. My guess is not many. What has been propagated here could be considered friendly fraud, which accounts for tens of billions a year in losses of the credit card companies.
I would imagine that the brighter of the bunch would have likely understood that it cannot be that easy. So I suppose it's a culling of the herd of sorts.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
It was not false advertising, ppl should read better when they buy something.
Imo its not that bad, they can make a ton of money and that will keep the servers running, im still having fun and a lot of players with me
U might think this is just about the initial purchase of the game , u know the 30$ , it's not!
I know for a fact that there are thousands of people who have spent at least 1k+$ on this game.
Inducing fear instead of trying to help isn't helping..
I had/have only the best intentions when i opened this thread.
I know how addictive and fun this game is , trust me i do! haven't left the house my first 5 days of playing it..but the fact still remains that if we were to start it all over again whit the p2w aspect in the overview being displayed as it should of been and not masked as it was , not many people would buy into this game and i can't do anything else but call this company for what they are , greedy , manipulative , lying bastards...
youtube -
I also find it funny how they are deleting this post and many others of mine from their forum left and right ...The fact that they have released new stuff to the game exactly on the same day as the p2w announcement is also really low just so they can soften the blow a little bit and the 20mil costumes HAH
Best scumbag company on the internet!
The legitimacy of a claim does not have anything to do with what you "feel" was a wrong-doing or the number of people who submit claims.
Also, it should be clearly stated that while there are no direct consequences to the consumer lodging a complaint, it is ENTIRELY possible to have your credit card revoked by the issuer should they find that your claim is illegitimate and that it is not the first time you've abused the system. So propagating misinformation and inciting people who may be foolish enough to follow you, because you posted something on a forum on the Internet, because you're angry is silly and will likely do more harm than good in the long run. If you think you're helping people, you're not. If you think people aren't aware of chargebacks, they are. The vast majority of card holders have issues a chargeback at some point.
All I will say is good luck to you, but buyer beware. Just like BDO, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
And i am 100% sure on this one , if enough consumers complain about a product , shit will be done , that's fact.
I am not angry and i do not want anyone to follow me and i do not want to incite anything.. i already tolled u i soled my account a while ago
I just think that what they are doing is malicious and that company shouldn't be allowed to handle any consumer products... that's all!
It's every consumers right to take back their investment if they feel they have been cheated or lied upon.
The chargeback system was not intended to remove any need for responsibility by the the consumer.
Here is that standard policy used by any debit/credit card that has the Visa/MC/Amex logo on it. These are the ONLY three reasons you can get a chargeback (if you did a bank draft, then your bank has a different policy, but it's probably fairly similar):
- Authorization error: a transaction was allowed even though the authorization was declined
Everything else is a no-go. And to make matters even more difficult, with MasterCard the burden of proof lies on you. It’s entirely up to you to know the merchant’s cancellation/return policy, even if they don’t disclose it. They didn’t tell you that you couldn’t cancel after three days? Too bad.
Trying to get a chargeback after 60 days of purchase? Shit out of luck again.
And you better pray you don't lie about even the smallest thing or you'll find out very quickly how fast a chargeback can be reversed.
~~ postlarval ~~
Show me proof where they said that they will be adding p2w mechanics to the game when they launched it .. PLEASE!
Again because no one seems to have a comeback on this one.
IF WE START IT ALL OVER AGAIN and we add the p2w aspect to the equation , would the number of copy's being soled be reduced by 50/75% ...
Let's stop whit the bs already , they lied and they resorted to cheap psychological tactics.
im done , good luck to everyone getting their money back.
On top of this the new Pay 2 Win options, along with Delayed Content Intentionally held back between Korean and EU, and US releases of the game simply to make profit the game just is like Arche Age now not worth playing anymore...
Expect most F2P MMO's to become pay 2 win or pay 2 enjoy in the future the only MMO's I know that don't do such or MOBA better said are games like League OF Legends, Smite, DOTA 2, Heroes OF The Storm, and Over Watch for example every other game I have played by Nexon, Aeria, Trion (Except for Rift), Daum, NCSoft, have all been hardcore Pay 2 Enjoy, or Pay 2 win not worth playing its hard to find anything worth playing these days because they all eventually end up like this.
The only game that might be somewhat fair buying in the future would be revolution online, if they keep the game similiar to what Skyforge has been on the payment model its not as bad...
I don't mind the fact you can buy gear in a game, or RMT in a game being allowed but Daum Games is going to knowingly allow RMT for the sake of profit in game while denying such, and just keep releasing updated gear and such to make other purchased gears become outdated not to mention the true fact that a person spends 1 million dollars in a game can become pay 2 win by just 1 hitting everyone, even EVE Online is Pay 2 Win if you have the millions of dollars you can just instnatly train TItan Pilot and 1 hit everyone.
Well there will always be a delta between what you know as true and what someone else sees as true. What that is remains to be seen. However, someone should know the consequences should things not go as planned, including not getting a refund, including being held responsible for the chargeback fees, etc. but you know 100% so why shouldn't someone charge it back, right?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Anyway is there like a legal definition of P2W? Do we have a definitive meaning for the term that can stand up to a challenge. How do you prove your claim when even pundits argue about the term.