Would this game have sold as many copies? Yet the writing was on the wall then too. If you don't want these games, stop knighting the cause. You will only get stabbed in the back.
The easy answer is, yes. Why? Because it was as clear as day. It's not like the P2W topic JUST arrived with BDO. BDO has been called P2W LOOOOOOOONG before it ever reached North America and Europe. This is simply a matter of mis-aligned expectations. I mean the developers so much as TOLD players that this was going to happen, but there was mass denial, lol.
Honestly, though, in the grand scheme of things I don't see why this is any worse than any other game. I mean is it more or less P2W than Archeage? GW2? WoW? Remember that I can now buy and sell game time in WoW which is, actually, a more direct conversion into cash than this is.
What I would REALLY like to hear is a popular modern game that people believe that BDO should be modeled after because as far as the P2W movement goes, there are none left which are NOT P2W.
I cannot stress this enough..they never stated that they will be adding p2w mechanics and instead used psychological word play to mask it and sell it as just a b2p game whit a *cosmetics cashshop* Archage i don't know much about but i think it happened exactly as it happened here and the game died. gw2 gear doesn't impact the pvp performance and in wow u actually need to play the game to get bis... i haven't played any of these games but from what i heard this is how it is , someone correct me if i am wrong.
Would this game have sold as many copies? Yet the writing was on the wall then too. If you don't want these games, stop knighting the cause. You will only get stabbed in the back.
The easy answer is, yes. Why? Because it was as clear as day. It's not like the P2W topic JUST arrived with BDO. BDO has been called P2W LOOOOOOOONG before it ever reached North America and Europe. This is simply a matter of mis-aligned expectations. I mean the developers so much as TOLD players that this was going to happen, but there was mass denial, lol.
Honestly, though, in the grand scheme of things I don't see why this is any worse than any other game. I mean is it more or less P2W than Archeage? GW2? WoW? Remember that I can now buy and sell game time in WoW which is, actually, a more direct conversion into cash than this is.
What I would REALLY like to hear is a popular modern game that people believe that BDO should be modeled after because as far as the P2W movement goes, there are none left which are NOT P2W.
I cannot stress this enough..they never stated that they will be adding p2w mechanics and instead used psychological word play to mask it and sell it as just a b2p game whit a *cosmetics cashshop* Archage i don't know much about but i think it happened exactly as it happened here and the game died. gw2 gear doesn't impact the pvp performance and in wow u actually need to play the game to get bis... i haven't played any of these games but from what i heard this is how it is , someone correct me if i am wrong.
No, they actually did. There has been P2W talk surrounding this game for over a year. There have been conversations all over reddit, there have been players BEGGING not to go P2W, there have been other players saying it IS P2W (again a year ago). So the fact that his is surprising to anyone surprises me. You can say all you want that they lied, yada yada, but I've bought enough shit off infomercials to know that the product I bought PROBABLY isn't going to do what they tell me it is, exactly. Same goes here.
While I can agree that some may view it as a P2W mechanic, and it could very well kill the game, it's really no different than any other game out there right now. On top of that, let's not forget that buying black market gold is still the most efficient way of getting money. For, probably, 500 bucks I can get a level 50 with like 75 million silver. Alternatively I can just buy an account. I just saw a level 56 with 45M silver for $200.
I mean these are truths about gaming. If you felt like BDO was going to be something different, I'm sorry to disappoint. However, it's all about the interpretation on the part of the player. There is nothing, to my knowledge, that says that they would never sell items in the cash shop which could be sold for in-game currency on the marketplace. I've looked. Maybe you could enlighten me though. Honestly, I haven't found anything.
I really doubt they hunt for people with less then 500/1000 €. They may go lawsuit people with over 500 + in hope they win some. But as you see in the EU, mostly Customer win. In US the Law System way more corrupted. But We will see.
Maybe I get lawsuites as well for charge back but who knows, only time will tell.
Black Desert Online "P2W Edition" - Rise of the Credit Cards Chargeback Featuring all new classes: Paypal Visa Amex Mastercard Discover Brand new "never seen on any other mmorpg" type of quests: Disputes Claims E-mails Typing Phone Calls and The Wait
<read this in John Bailey's voice, Honest Trailer>
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
Black Desert Online "P2W Edition" - Rise of the Credit Cards Chargeback Featuring all new classes: Paypal Visa Amex Mastercard Discover Brand new "never seen on any other mmorpg" type of quests: Disputes Claims E-mails Typing Phone Calls and The Wait
<read this in John Bailey's voice, Honest Trailer>
Oh man this one is great. I was reading this in John's voice and then did read your last line :pleased:
Black Desert Online "P2W Edition" - Rise of the Credit Cards Chargeback Featuring all new classes: Paypal Visa Amex Mastercard Discover Brand new "never seen on any other mmorpg" type of quests: Disputes Claims E-mails Typing Phone Calls and The Wait
<read this in John Bailey's voice, Honest Trailer>
Oh man this one is great. I was reading this in John's voice and then did read your last line :pleased:
A more humerous version, and possibly more realistic, would be to repeat it in the voice of Paul Reuben aka Pee-wee Herman
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
The problem with that is if they didn't make the statement they didn't screw people. So yeah finding an explicit statement after the fact is bullshit, just that you are the one with the bullshit not those that are expecting you actually had a reason to be upset.
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Or maybe, just maybe, you and everyone else can't find an explicit statement because there never was one?
He'll be offended a little it's Jon bailey you forgot his name
Hopefully not offended that i had to google his name to get the reference, i am guessing that he's a sports caster that sounds like they have 60 cigarettes a day, most of them sound like they are heavy smokers so its probably a hazard of the job
lol, edited because.. Americans think the UK terminology for cigarettes is something else entirely.
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Or maybe, just maybe, you and everyone else can't find an explicit statement because there never was one?
Except there was.
When asked why the game is b2p, the marketing guy says,
"It will help with balance because we don't have to resort to f2p p2w antics to earn money."
Not to mention they stated many times that prices were the way they were ($30 costumes anyone???) to avoid "having to go p2w".
They actually talked about p2w a lot, and used the idea that the game isn't and wouldn't be p2w as a selling point quite often.
This isn't just some random guy, either. He was often a guy doing the official Q&As for the company.
Anyway, now that the game is p2w, there's literally no reason for it to cost us $30. Our version is in effect no different from the other f2p versions now, but they are still charging a box price for our version.
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Or maybe, just maybe, you and everyone else can't find an explicit statement because there never was one?
Except there was.
When asked why the game is b2p, the marketing guy says,
"It will help with balance because we don't have to resort to f2p p2w antics to earn money."
Not to mention they stated many times that prices were the way they were ($30 costumes anyone???) to avoid "having to go p2w".
They actually talked about p2w a lot, and used the idea that the game isn't and wouldn't be p2w as a selling point quite often.
This isn't just some random guy, either. He was often a guy doing the official Q&As for the company.
Anyway, now that the game is p2w, there's literally no reason for it to cost us $30. Our version is in effect no different from the other f2p versions now, but they are still charging a box price for our version.
This video explains what happened to us:
That's not an explicit statement.
First of all, "F2P P2W" antics doesn't necessarily refer to trading of cash shop items (if anything, going by R2 Game's publically available business F2P P2W presentation, where tradeability of cash shop items is NEVER brought up, it's almost positive that businesses don't consider that an F2P P2W antic). Also, just becuase they don't have to resort to F2P P2W antics to earn money doesn't mean they won't.
The statement itself is not an absolute truth either. For all we know, maybe the marketting guy didn't realize later on that it wasn't enough to earn money after all. In that case, Daum didn't knowingly lie to their customers so much as grossly underestimate how little constant income a B2P game with few cash shop pushes makes. If they're new to the industry (which they are), they wouldn't realize such a thing until some months down the line. Saying "We don't have to resort to it because we make enough money" is a statement that automatically nullifies itself if they don't actually "make enough money", and whether or not it's a lie falls into a grey area because "We make enough money" was probably true AT THAT TIME, but "We make enough money" stopped being true when the players stopped ponying up enough cash after all the initial one-time purchases (box price, pets, ghillie suit, probably) were done.
The problem here is that players are using their own definitions of what they think "p2w" is. there is no explicit statement by Daum that they would do x,y or z.
They never said they wouldn't allow pearl items in the cash shop, just that they didn't want a p2w atmosphere. If they have a different idea of what that means then that's what the real issue is. And once again the players supply their own little narrative and are yet again disappointed when things don't go the way they envisioned it in their heads.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This can all be avoided if we go back to subscription models! Never again face a P2W situation!
Oh wait That is bad to isn't it?
A bunch of whining kids, sheesh. You need to show your hours played and then explain why you spent so much time in the game and had so much fun and now you need the $30 back! Not a lick of enjoyment was there? You hated every minute and never got what you paid for?
Price per hour worked out less than the price of a movie. Charge back that last movie you didn't like and see if they let you charge your ticket for the next movie. "It was false advertising the plot was different from what I thought it was" try that one and let us know how it goes.
I played BDO I have 250 hours in. I had a good time. I don't play now but I got my $100 of entertainment out of it!
This entitlement culture just drives me nuts... I must be getting old....
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Or maybe, just maybe, you and everyone else can't find an explicit statement because there never was one?
Except there was.
When asked why the game is b2p, the marketing guy says,
"It will help with balance because we don't have to resort to f2p p2w antics to earn money."
Not to mention they stated many times that prices were the way they were ($30 costumes anyone???) to avoid "having to go p2w".
They actually talked about p2w a lot, and used the idea that the game isn't and wouldn't be p2w as a selling point quite often.
This isn't just some random guy, either. He was often a guy doing the official Q&As for the company.
Anyway, now that the game is p2w, there's literally no reason for it to cost us $30. Our version is in effect no different from the other f2p versions now, but they are still charging a box price for our version.
This video explains what happened to us:
You have no credibility to speak on this any longer
Um, What do we win? I was always told the journey is every bit as important as the destination.....Only there is no destination in this game for everyone except the one guy that can claim #1....Its all journey for the rest of you....THAT is what you are paying for! The journey.....There can be only one and your never going to be it...Get over it.....Now to stay on topic, Chargebacks are for the something for nothing losers who never had a chance at #1 despite their ego convincing them they did....
Would this game have sold as many copies? Yet the writing was on the wall then too. If you don't want these games, stop knighting the cause. You will only get stabbed in the back.
The easy answer is, yes. Why? Because it was as clear as day. It's not like the P2W topic JUST arrived with BDO. BDO has been called P2W LOOOOOOOONG before it ever reached North America and Europe. This is simply a matter of mis-aligned expectations. I mean the developers so much as TOLD players that this was going to happen, but there was mass denial, lol.
Honestly, though, in the grand scheme of things I don't see why this is any worse than any other game. I mean is it more or less P2W than Archeage? GW2? WoW? Remember that I can now buy and sell game time in WoW which is, actually, a more direct conversion into cash than this is.
What I would REALLY like to hear is a popular modern game that people believe that BDO should be modeled after because as far as the P2W movement goes, there are none left which are NOT P2W.
I'd REALLY like to know why you think MMOs should be modeling after "popular modern MMOs". Just because most modern MMOs are f2p p2w cash grabs doesn't mean BDO should be modeling itself after them.
If you mean popular modern games, that's easy- Overwatch (which, like BDO, is also B2P btw).
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Lying doesn't mean "not doing what other people want you to do".
If you promise to do something and then don't do it, then you lied. If people expect you to do something that you never said you would do and then you don't do it, then you didn't lie. Others' expectations do not automatically obligate you to do something that you never agreed to.
People keep saying that the developers lied. Where exactly are the lies? Can you find an explicit statement where they promised that item mall goods would never be tradeable? Not merely "not tradeable at this time" or "we're not planning on making them tradeable". The developers didn't do what you hoped they'd do is not lies, fraud, or false advertising.
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
Or maybe, just maybe, you and everyone else can't find an explicit statement because there never was one?
Except there was.
When asked why the game is b2p, the marketing guy says,
"It will help with balance because we don't have to resort to f2p p2w antics to earn money."
Not to mention they stated many times that prices were the way they were ($30 costumes anyone???) to avoid "having to go p2w".
They actually talked about p2w a lot, and used the idea that the game isn't and wouldn't be p2w as a selling point quite often.
This isn't just some random guy, either. He was often a guy doing the official Q&As for the company.
Anyway, now that the game is p2w, there's literally no reason for it to cost us $30. Our version is in effect no different from the other f2p versions now, but they are still charging a box price for our version.
This video explains what happened to us:
That's not an explicit statement.
First of all, "F2P P2W" antics doesn't necessarily refer to trading of cash shop items (if anything, going by R2 Game's publically available business F2P P2W presentation, where tradeability of cash shop items is NEVER brought up, it's almost positive that businesses don't consider that an F2P P2W antic). Also, just becuase they don't have to resort to F2P P2W antics to earn money doesn't mean they won't.
The statement itself is not an absolute truth either. For all we know, maybe the marketting guy didn't realize later on that it wasn't enough to earn money after all. In that case, Daum didn't knowingly lie to their customers so much as grossly underestimate how little constant income a B2P game with few cash shop pushes makes. If they're new to the industry (which they are), they wouldn't realize such a thing until some months down the line. Saying "We don't have to resort to it because we make enough money" is a statement that automatically nullifies itself if they don't actually "make enough money", and whether or not it's a lie falls into a grey area because "We make enough money" was probably true AT THAT TIME, but "We make enough money" stopped being true when the players stopped ponying up enough cash after all the initial one-time purchases (box price, pets, ghillie suit, probably) were done.
Oh, so all this is OK because they're "new to the industry"?
It's ok to mislead customers and have a f2p model in a b2p game because we're just an innocent naive little multi-billion dollar company guys. C'mon, give us a break!
This whole advertising and selling stuff is very confusing for us! We don't know what we're saying!
The problem here is that players are using their own definitions of what they think "p2w" is. there is no explicit statement by Daum that they would do x,y or z.
They never said they wouldn't allow pearl items in the cash shop, just that they didn't want a p2w atmosphere. If they have a different idea of what that means then that's what the real issue is. And once again the players supply their own little narrative and are yet again disappointed when things don't go the way they envisioned it in their heads.
That's awfully convenient because the company can redefine p2w any time they want.
Comments
Archage i don't know much about but i think it happened exactly as it happened here and the game died.
gw2 gear doesn't impact the pvp performance and in wow u actually need to play the game to get bis... i haven't played any of these games but from what i heard this is how it is , someone correct me if i am wrong.
No, they actually did. There has been P2W talk surrounding this game for over a year. There have been conversations all over reddit, there have been players BEGGING not to go P2W, there have been other players saying it IS P2W (again a year ago). So the fact that his is surprising to anyone surprises me. You can say all you want that they lied, yada yada, but I've bought enough shit off infomercials to know that the product I bought PROBABLY isn't going to do what they tell me it is, exactly. Same goes here.
While I can agree that some may view it as a P2W mechanic, and it could very well kill the game, it's really no different than any other game out there right now. On top of that, let's not forget that buying black market gold is still the most efficient way of getting money. For, probably, 500 bucks I can get a level 50 with like 75 million silver. Alternatively I can just buy an account. I just saw a level 56 with 45M silver for $200.
I mean these are truths about gaming. If you felt like BDO was going to be something different, I'm sorry to disappoint. However, it's all about the interpretation on the part of the player. There is nothing, to my knowledge, that says that they would never sell items in the cash shop which could be sold for in-game currency on the marketplace. I've looked. Maybe you could enlighten me though. Honestly, I haven't found anything.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Maybe I get lawsuites as well for charge back but who knows, only time will tell.
Featuring all new classes:
Paypal
Visa
Amex
Mastercard
Discover
Brand new "never seen on any other mmorpg" type of quests:
Disputes
Claims
E-mails
Typing
Phone Calls
and
The Wait
<read this in John Bailey's voice, Honest Trailer>
Lol, people still arguing about this. It s a P2W crap game, not much else to say about it.
Or possibly Darth Vader
~~ postlarval ~~
This is the problem with the world today.
Having to back track after they screw people and find the legal statement. Did he say it months earlier ?
You shouldn't have to do this.
People should enjoy a game and not have to watch every prodcast and every statement before they buy.
Finding an " explicit statement " after the fact is bull shit !
lol, edited because.. Americans think the UK terminology for cigarettes is something else entirely.
When asked why the game is b2p, the marketing guy says,
"It will help with balance because we don't have to resort to f2p p2w antics to earn money."
Not to mention they stated many times that prices were the way they were ($30 costumes anyone???) to avoid "having to go p2w".
They actually talked about p2w a lot, and used the idea that the game isn't and wouldn't be p2w as a selling point quite often.
This isn't just some random guy, either. He was often a guy doing the official Q&As for the company.
Anyway, now that the game is p2w, there's literally no reason for it to cost us $30. Our version is in effect no different from the other f2p versions now, but they are still charging a box price for our version.
This video explains what happened to us:
First of all, "F2P P2W" antics doesn't necessarily refer to trading of cash shop items (if anything, going by R2 Game's publically available business F2P P2W presentation, where tradeability of cash shop items is NEVER brought up, it's almost positive that businesses don't consider that an F2P P2W antic). Also, just becuase they don't have to resort to F2P P2W antics to earn money doesn't mean they won't.
The statement itself is not an absolute truth either. For all we know, maybe the marketting guy didn't realize later on that it wasn't enough to earn money after all. In that case, Daum didn't knowingly lie to their customers so much as grossly underestimate how little constant income a B2P game with few cash shop pushes makes. If they're new to the industry (which they are), they wouldn't realize such a thing until some months down the line. Saying "We don't have to resort to it because we make enough money" is a statement that automatically nullifies itself if they don't actually "make enough money", and whether or not it's a lie falls into a grey area because "We make enough money" was probably true AT THAT TIME, but "We make enough money" stopped being true when the players stopped ponying up enough cash after all the initial one-time purchases (box price, pets, ghillie suit, probably) were done.
They never said they wouldn't allow pearl items in the cash shop, just that they didn't want a p2w atmosphere. If they have a different idea of what that means then that's what the real issue is. And once again the players supply their own little narrative and are yet again disappointed when things don't go the way they envisioned it in their heads.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Oh wait That is bad to isn't it?
A bunch of whining kids, sheesh. You need to show your hours played and then explain why you spent so much time in the game and had so much fun and now you need the $30 back! Not a lick of enjoyment was there? You hated every minute and never got what you paid for?
Price per hour worked out less than the price of a movie. Charge back that last movie you didn't like and see if they let you charge your ticket for the next movie. "It was false advertising the plot was different from what I thought it was" try that one and let us know how it goes.
I played BDO I have 250 hours in. I had a good time. I don't play now but I got my $100 of entertainment out of it!
This entitlement culture just drives me nuts... I must be getting old....
If you mean popular modern games, that's easy- Overwatch (which, like BDO, is also B2P btw).
If you promise to do something and then don't do it, then you lied. If people expect you to do something that you never said you would do and then you don't do it, then you didn't lie. Others' expectations do not automatically obligate you to do something that you never agreed to.
It's ok to mislead customers and have a f2p model in a b2p game because we're just an innocent naive little multi-billion dollar company guys. C'mon, give us a break!
This whole advertising and selling stuff is very confusing for us! We don't know what we're saying!
That's awfully convenient because the company can redefine p2w any time they want.