IMO you dont win anything and i dont care if people reach faster max level via xp boost. PvE cant be P2W in my opinion, theres nothing to win, at least for casual players.
P2w is when you bring something into the "closed ecosystem game world" from outside this ecosystem.
You mean like macro capable mice/keyboards, high speed/low ping Internet connections and add-ons right?
I agree, none of those should be permitted.
Always someone, somewhere, somehow will have an "advantage" over you, rarely is it a "win" however.
Indeed and some games dont allow macros from devices etc. Like I said the term is an expression and you don't need to "win" anything.
As for net connections I think your confusing game requirements with the topic at hand.
If the term P2W is just an expression, it's meaningless for discussion as there is very specific differences between advantage and win.
You've never heard someone has an advantage or disadvantage based on how good their internet connection is or how low or high their ping times are?
No confusion on my side, but on yours.......yeah.
Actually, I have heard Internet connection speed used as a term for advantage. Back in the 90s when USA had a lot more issues with Internet access and speeds, but it existed. But that was a long time ago.
FYI, people have also used hardware differences as that excuse as well.
I personally thought a number of game mods were cheats but that is off topic.
It is all bullcrap.
Do NOT joke! I bought a house 3 years ago believing that there was cable Internet there, since it was right down the road. NOPE!!!!! I went from 50mb to 6mb. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu..........
Luckily I was joking with a phone guy last year and came to discover that the phone company put in an upgraded appliance in the area and I could get my 50mb connection back. When you have like 4 kids streaming videos it makes so.... much.... difference!!! I have a disadvantage because I have kids!!!
But them to work in your favorite mmoRPG. It will be like you are multiboxing! At the very least, having them gather resources for you to put on the AH.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm sure a developer that really wanted to, could make cosmetics a P2W item if they really wanted to: Nudging community elitism in the right direction, making normal gear really boring, offering virtually no customization elsewhere, and similar. That's before you give the players the ability to trade them in game.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
in my concept p2w NO: but for pay2progress yes for sure
Whats kinds this have effect game? well its XP if its other thing like more drop loot , big badass item to make item better or ubreakable its other history
The ability to spend real money on anything in game except things that everyone has to buy (e.g. subscription, expansion packs, etc) and untradeable cosmetics is pay to win, in my opinion.
Pay to win = general understanding of getting an advantage over other players that don't/didn't pay
Perhaps most striking, pay to win, would also be a thing in single player games. It can then be said, that your upgraded experience of the gameplay, is fundamentally different from that other players have in their single player game.
Cosmetic items would not be pay-to-win, unless, this was perhaps about buying camo clothes for your first person shooter game, in which camo clothes might be thought as giving an obvious advantage. And if everyone has camo clothes, but yours looks more unique, then the benefit would be trivial.
I'm sure a developer that really wanted to, could make cosmetics a P2W item if they really wanted to: Nudging community elitism in the right direction, making normal gear really boring, offering virtually no customization elsewhere, and similar. That's before you give the players the ability to trade them in game.
Many would argue BDO did exactly this, making dropped gear boring in favor of $30 costumes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here's the very funny thing. I currently play Black Desert Online and I loath levelling because it brings me closer to level 45. I hate it when I hear the sound of my level going up even though I avoid combat quests and am not hardly doing any fighting except when trying to get more Contribution Points. So for me the idea of fast levelling makes me laugh.
I have never been a fan of consuming content at a fast rate or even normal rate. I like things slow. I like to savour every single thing and enjoy the game a lot more longer. I always find the end game turns me off in the end ( lol pun there ) but it's true the end game always ends up being boring. So for me fast levelling is a bad way to play but I can see where in a PvP game it can be an issue.
Even when I went back recently to WoW I played it slowly and dislike the speed I was levelling up. I look at the world of Warcraft and see the art I once hated initially and how I fell in love with it later. I go to the places I remember and just look about. It's hard for me to explain but fast levelling has never been a goal for me ever.
The ability to spend real money on anything in game except things that everyone has to buy (e.g. subscription, expansion packs, etc) and untradeable cosmetics is pay to win, in my opinion.
But you have to actually win. People forget the word "win" means you are a badass. Not because you are able to kill a few players. Anyone can get to the point to kill a few players. When somehow through paying you have become a complete badass. Then you are winning. You don't magically win because you reached max level. If that is the case the game mechanics are all messed up.
If it was in a game like EverQuest I'd say it's over powered and game breaking. If it was in a game like Black Desert where I hit 55 on a character in a day normally without buffs (which is effectively endgame enough to compete with everyone else) then I'd say it's not pay to win.
It's mostly scope and design.
TBH I think the main reason BDO sells so many outfits is they have no variety to their in game gear appearance. It's an intention design scheme.
back to P2W exp though, ultimately I'd say it boils down to the percent of the game that is designed around the journey rather than the destination. You could spend as much time leveling in EQ and FFXI and DAoC and all those type games as you could playing end game. That is not true for most of the newer MMOs, and hence getting to endgame is much quicker, so exp boosts aren't as big a deal.
IMO you dont win anything and i dont care if people reach faster max level via xp boost. PvE cant be P2W in my opinion, theres nothing to win, at least for casual players.
P2w is when you bring something into the "closed ecosystem game world" from outside this ecosystem.
You mean like macro capable mice/keyboards, high speed/low ping Internet connections and add-ons right?
I agree, none of those should be permitted.
Always someone, somewhere, somehow will have an "advantage" over you, rarely is it a "win" however.
Indeed and some games dont allow macros from devices etc. Like I said the term is an expression and you don't need to "win" anything.
As for net connections I think your confusing game requirements with the topic at hand.
If the term P2W is just an expression, it's meaningless for discussion as there is very specific differences between advantage and win.
You've never heard someone has an advantage or disadvantage based on how good their internet connection is or how low or high their ping times are?
No confusion on my side, but on yours.......yeah.
Yeah you're plenty confused if you need to bring internet connection and ping in a p2w discussion...lol
Will it cause some kind of advantage sure it will but it's generally not something people have much control over barring they sell their homes and move somewhere else which frankly makes it absolute nonsense to bring something like that to the discussion.
So yeah you're confused or just plain being disingenuous.
Your internet connection has bugger all to do with "what is p2w" in the context of what I was saying.
Post edited by Asm0deus on
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
An exp boost item is meaningless in a game where people will rapidly hit max level.
In games without a real max level where it becomes hundreds of hours per level at the end game and a lot of players never reach the highest level -- there an exp boost if significant enough can be pay to win.
An exp boost item is meaningless in a game where people will rapidly hit max level.
In games without a real max level where it becomes hundreds of hours per level at the end game and a lot of players never reach the highest level -- there an exp boost if significant enough can be pay to win.
I can agree here as if you ever played L2 back in the day the grind was brutal, you had to be max level and properly geared to have a chance in castle seiges and exp boosters did have significant impact.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First off, P2W doesn't exist in PvE focused games. P2W only exists in PvP focused games because of the element of a competitive atmosphere. When you start to include crap to make it "easier" for casual player's to be competitive, than you already failed with your core game design by creating imbalance between veteran and new players. However, MMORPG's whether PvP or PvE should never be treated like some FPS game that people can pick up and play and accomplish everything someone else can that put in hundred of hours of game play. I'm sorry folks, but RPG elements and casual game play do not mesh well in a competitive environment. So, I think it's time people either stop playing PvP focused RPG's if they don't have the time or developers stop fooling themselves into thinking they have some awesome mechanics that eliminate any imbalances caused by amount of time played.
How do you define PvPer? If you narrow it down to the ability to screw someone over it becomes far more complex because you're dealing with a complex system that has people driving all the parts. PvPer often times doesn't just involve forcing a respawn on someone, The amount of fevor that hard core raiding groups will put in to being "first" for the fame is some pretty serious competition(read PvPer), when you start to modify game mechanics and make it so that someone can get crafting levels up faster(to sell X item sooner than anyone else) or other mechanics that affect how easily someone can bring an item to a market you mess up that competition as well(read PvPer), if your community starts to really care about looks(and let people into groups easier or be social with said people more often) even purely cosmetic items can affect player interaction(read PvPer).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
All online gaming is are paid to win, unless you're all on the same LAN with the exact same rig setups. Those with better hardware and connections have the advantage in online PVP, especially in MMO's when your MMO's servers tick rate is not waiting for your client in handing over the data.
IMO you dont win anything and i dont care if people reach faster max level via xp boost. PvE cant be P2W in my opinion, theres nothing to win, at least for casual players.
P2w is when you bring something into the "closed ecosystem game world" from outside this ecosystem.
You mean like macro capable mice/keyboards, high speed/low ping Internet connections and add-ons right?
I agree, none of those should be permitted.
Always someone, somewhere, somehow will have an "advantage" over you, rarely is it a "win" however.
Indeed and some games dont allow macros from devices etc. Like I said the term is an expression and you don't need to "win" anything.
As for net connections I think your confusing game requirements with the topic at hand.
If the term P2W is just an expression, it's meaningless for discussion as there is very specific differences between advantage and win.
You've never heard someone has an advantage or disadvantage based on how good their internet connection is or how low or high their ping times are?
No confusion on my side, but on yours.......yeah.
Yeah you're plenty confused if you need to bring internet connection and ping in a p2w discussion...lol
Will it cause some kind of advantage sure it will but it's generally not something people have much control over barring they sell their homes and move somewhere else which frankly makes it absolute nonsense to bring something like that to the discussion.
So yeah you're confused or just plain being disingenuous.
Your internet connection has bugger all to do with "what is p2w" in the context of what I was saying.
You're the person who provided the P2W definition as "anything" that can be brought into the closed gaming ecosystem, not me.
Oh yes, and some people actually do move to get a better internet connection.
/ mic drop
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
But them to work in your favorite mmoRPG. It will be like you are multiboxing! At the very least, having them gather resources for you to put on the AH.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I'm sure a developer that really wanted to, could make cosmetics a P2W item if they really wanted to: Nudging community elitism in the right direction, making normal gear really boring, offering virtually no customization elsewhere, and similar. That's before you give the players the ability to trade them in game.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
but for pay2progress yes for sure
Whats kinds this have effect game? well its XP if its other thing like more drop loot , big badass item to make item better or ubreakable its other history
Perhaps most striking, pay to win, would also be a thing in single player games. It can then be said, that your upgraded experience of the gameplay, is fundamentally different from that other players have in their single player game.
Cosmetic items would not be pay-to-win, unless, this was perhaps about buying camo clothes for your first person shooter game, in which camo clothes might be thought as giving an obvious advantage. And if everyone has camo clothes, but yours looks more unique, then the benefit would be trivial.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have never been a fan of consuming content at a fast rate or even normal rate. I like things slow. I like to savour every single thing and enjoy the game a lot more longer. I always find the end game turns me off in the end ( lol pun there ) but it's true the end game always ends up being boring. So for me fast levelling is a bad way to play but I can see where in a PvP game it can be an issue.
Even when I went back recently to WoW I played it slowly and dislike the speed I was levelling up. I look at the world of Warcraft and see the art I once hated initially and how I fell in love with it later. I go to the places I remember and just look about. It's hard for me to explain but fast levelling has never been a goal for me ever.
If it was in a game like Black Desert where I hit 55 on a character in a day normally without buffs (which is effectively endgame enough to compete with everyone else) then I'd say it's not pay to win.
It's mostly scope and design.
TBH I think the main reason BDO sells so many outfits is they have no variety to their in game gear appearance. It's an intention design scheme.
back to P2W exp though, ultimately I'd say it boils down to the percent of the game that is designed around the journey rather than the destination. You could spend as much time leveling in EQ and FFXI and DAoC and all those type games as you could playing end game. That is not true for most of the newer MMOs, and hence getting to endgame is much quicker, so exp boosts aren't as big a deal.
Will it cause some kind of advantage sure it will but it's generally not something people have much control over barring they sell their homes and move somewhere else which frankly makes it absolute nonsense to bring something like that to the discussion.
So yeah you're confused or just plain being disingenuous.
Your internet connection has bugger all to do with "what is p2w" in the context of what I was saying.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
In games without a real max level where it becomes hundreds of hours per level at the end game and a lot of players never reach the highest level -- there an exp boost if significant enough can be pay to win.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
VG
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon