R3d.Gallows said: In reality MMO monthly subs are $10-15, not $300-500 so... ?
In reality there are MMOs that have no sub, so why should I pay one...?
Aaaand were back to square one. Games with no sub are designed differently than games with a sub. I already addressed this when discussing cosmetic items with you.
(...) otherwise youre starting down the road of devs designing parts of the game with the sole purpose of making people miserable, just to manipulate them into buying stuff. In this case it would be removing cosmetic items from the game so that the ones in the cash shop sell better. This kills players' joy of visual progression and visual rewards just because the publisher wants to sell shit. Its removing fun from the game. The same goes for any other feature that would sell well in the cash shop - to maximise the sales you have remove that feature from the game or make it so hard to obtain it becomes ubearably boring/annoying. Problem is most of those features are either sources of fun themselves or desirable rewards that would motivate people to play for extended periods of time. Thus youre removing fun and motivation to play from the game.
On one hand you have a 'free' game that will use every trick in the book to manipulate you into spending large amounts of RL money mostly by making your gameplay miserable if you dont. On the other hand you have a game whose devs sat down and at least tried to come up with ideas how to keep you interested in the game for as long as possible. Two completely different sets of design goals. I can only speak for myself but I would much rather have the latter set dominate the gaming industry.
R3d.Gallows said: Games with no sub are designed differently than games with a sub.
No, they aren't.
The game is designed still the same way, just some things are placed in the cash shop - instead of paying $15 sub and hitting lvl 10 to recieve additional inventory space, there is no entry fee and no sub and you may purchase additional inventory space from cash shop.
Same design, different monetization.
Just because you place certain game features and content into a cash shop does not mean anyone is trying to make your life miserable or manipulate you, that is just silly.
R3d.Gallows said: Games with no sub are designed differently than games with a sub.
No, they aren't.
The game is designed still the same way, just some things are placed in the cash shop - instead of paying $15 sub and hitting lvl 10 to recieve additional inventory space, there is no entry fee and no sub and you may purchase additional inventory space from cash shop.
Same design, different monetization.
Just because you place certain game features and content into a cash shop does not mean anyone is trying to make your life miserable or manipulate you, that is just silly.
This has nothing to do with "fun".
You are out in left field on this one, it's very clear when F2P games design around a cash shop.
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
In fact, that's only one of many designs in BDO where players are strongly encouraged to purchase things from the cash shop, I think they were brilliant (in an evil genius sort of way) in how they did it, probably one of the best I've ever seen.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Kyleran said: You are out in left field on this one, it's very clear when F2P games design around a cash shop.
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
Perfect example.
It does not change design, just place certain things into a cash shop - instead of loot drop, you purchase from cash shop.
Kyleran said: You are out in left field on this one, it's very clear when F2P games design around a cash shop.
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
Perfect example.
It does not change design, just place certain things into a cash shop - instead of loot drop, you purchase from cash shop.
Kyleran said: You are out in left field on this one, it's very clear when F2P games design around a cash shop.
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
Perfect example.
It does not change design, just place certain things into a cash shop - instead of loot drop, you purchase from cash shop.
Still the same design.
It is not at all the same, and there's no way to continue this conversation with this sort of disconnect.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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Kyleran said: You are out in left field on this one, it's very clear when F2P games design around a cash shop.
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
Perfect example.
It does not change design, just place certain things into a cash shop - instead of loot drop, you purchase from cash shop.
Still the same design.
It is not at all the same, and there's no way to continue this conversation with this sort of disconnect.
/ mic drop
I realized that a page or two back
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I think fairness is completely subjective - so IMO you find a game that is "fair for you" and you play that.
Adapt to reality of now, don't expect the world to change for you.
If you can't find anything to suit you - move on.
There is fairness and there is equality. Someone can say "Hey! That's not fair!" to anything they want. But equality can be measured. I want to play a game where I pay to gain entry. What I pay is equal to what everyone else pays to gain entry. From there, the only thing everybody gets for the fee, is the same amount of time.
Traditionally, we'd all pay $15.00 in exchange for 30 days access. That's what EVERYONE pays, that's what EVERYONE gets. 30 day. How people choose to use that time is on them.
Subjective: "It's not fair! That person spends 12hrs a day in the game, and I can only spend 4!"
Equality: You both paid for 30 days access, you both recieved 30 days access.
The arrangements one makes in their own life in order to use what they were given is entirely on them and should not be foisted on the rest of the player base in the form of "Convenience Items". Otherwise known as "Fairness", which it seems can be bought.
People who play 4 hours per day aren't the ones upset about a subscription. People who play 4 hours per month are the ones who don't like that. And they don't have to put up with a subscription model because there are plenty of games that don't require a subscription. Such as nearly all of them.
So you think the entire genre should shif around 4hr/mo gamers? Because I don't get the impression that any of this monetizaiton shift over the past 10 years has been focusing on catering to people who play 4 hrs a month.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
R3d.Gallows said: Games with no sub are designed differently than games with a sub.
No, they aren't.
The game is designed still the same way, just some things are placed in the cash shop - instead of paying $15 sub and hitting lvl 10 to recieve additional inventory space, there is no entry fee and no sub and you may purchase additional inventory space from cash shop.
Same design, different monetization.
Just because you place certain game features and content into a cash shop does not mean anyone is trying to make your life miserable or manipulate you, that is just silly.
This has nothing to do with "fun".
This is absurd. Especially your attempt to put words into my mouth once again. I never said someone's trying to make your life miserable. I said gameplay. Unless your whole life is playing F2P games - then yes, the devs are pissing all over your life so they can sell you a mop youll be able to clean it up with. Also, I see no way to keep this discussion going if you claim moving certain features and rewards to the cash shop doesnt affect fun.
Perhaps the best way to handle this is to actually base the monetization on the actual time people play and use the resources. Then to allow the player to decide the type of monetization they prefer.
So if you play less you pay less and if a player prefers to play for free they can then pick which access is going to be restricted. Surely you agree that when you play for free there should be restrictions to what you can access. That is only fair to those who pay the full price.
This is absurd. Especially your attempt to put words into my mouth once again. I never said someone's trying to make your life miserable. I said gameplay. Unless your whole life is playing F2P games - then yes, the devs are pissing all over your life so they can sell you a mop youll be able to clean it up with. Also, I see no way to keep this discussion going if you claim moving certain features and rewards to the cash shop doesnt affect fun.
I was never putting words into you mouth and not doing it now either. You just read into things that aren't there, ignoring the context of the post.
I will make it very simple for you.
Here is your claim:
R3d.Gallows said: Unless you make a game good enough for them to want to play it regardless of the sub.
You also claim that cash shop takes away from fun.
If that is true, one must also assume that sub takes away from fun too and thus your claim is false.
...or, one could reasonably assume that money do make a difference whether we play a game or not, and it has nothing to do with "fun", customers are pricing sensitive(no surprise there).
Charge all players $0.25 per hour logged in. That way people who play 60 hours a month pay $15 while people who play 8 hours a month pay $2.00. This would bring in the masses and never make you feel like 'you're not getting your money's worth'.
Charge all players $0.25 per hour logged in. That way people who play 60 hours a month pay $15 while people who play 8 hours a month pay $2.00. This would bring in the masses and never make you feel like 'you're not getting your money's worth'.
My 25 cents anyway.
Not a bad idea, but the $15.00 price point would need to be tied to the number of hours the "typical" MMORPG player logs in, so that heavy users were given the "opportunity" to pay more if they exceeded the average.
You could tie that in with a flat rate, unlimited access offer of say $20 or $25a month.
Pricing needs to be fair to both customer and the company, works both ways
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Buy to Play does require people to pay, you don't have to force people into a subscription in order to sell them DLC, just treat MMORPGs like single player console games. Normal $40-$60 entry fee with DLC expansions, and all cosmetics/mounts/pets should be earned and not bought. What good is the subscription fee?
Blizzard doesn't even give content patches for an entire year of subscription! You buy the expansion, and get content, that is it.
Mostly seems that companies that make the most money give you no content, and those that make the least try harder like SoE with Everquest 1 and 2. It is okay to give some exclusive mounts and pets/cosmetics like Blizzard is doing, but not when you are subscription only.... On top of that, when you are literally giving no in-game content as well?
So, subscription isn't fair because Blizzard and companies like Square Enix with FFIV Online: A Realm Reborn are selling things in shops on top of your subscription! You can't even get a subscription only game now!! Best to be Buy to Play and force people to buy the game and expansions, because you will get stuck with a marketplace anyway....
/quote This would be 90% of everyone's preferred option. However, it does not appear that this model is bringing in enough cash for the devs. As almost all of them with this model have started in game cash for RL cash conversions. /endquote
They did this to stop people from selling gold with fraudalent stolen credit cards and hacked accounts. By selling it yourself you make money because players will always buy in-game currency for RL money, and this way they don't have to support criminals and break the economy in order to do so. Since, apparently they can't just block the sales themselves.
Yeah, it is difficult. Many games just aren't fun anymore because they are tiny and shallow. Playing 4-5 games at a time is also a problem with subscriptions, since you'd be paying a thousand of more dollars a year, and have no time to play all of the games anyway.
Your server bandwidth usage depends on how much time you spend there logged in, so they should have a way of charging you per an hour like AoL, instead of per a month. Someone who plays 4-5 games is going to use a lot less than someone who only plays 1. So, people who play 1 MMORPG say subs are the best and a great value at $200-$300 a year, but someone who plays 4 or 5 is getting no use out of paying $1000 or more a year, because they use almost no minimal server resources whatsoever and are paying full price for not logging in.
The subscription cancel/renew random roulette is annoying, companies want a steady flow of cash, but they also want a flow of customers, if you remove the customers, you get less group/raids and paying customers quit because the population has declined. People want success, they want populations of other people, and WoW survived on its own population. Having friends/guildmates keeps people engaged and hooked on WoW. Removing subscriptions was an attempt to keep community alive, so that the people would pay the money if they had the money to pay.
Subscriptions are already fair enough, imo. F2P with a Sub option is fine, as long as development is focused on the subs before the freeloaders. I say this knowing full well the majority of people are those freeloaders who will complain about how they can't do everything paying customers can.
Comments
That is the same real trick all restaurateurs know to make people eat one and the same meal every day.
Or was it a real trick to watch same TV show over and over?
I cannot remember now...real tricks everywhere.
On one hand you have a 'free' game that will use every trick in the book to manipulate you into spending large amounts of RL money mostly by making your gameplay miserable if you dont. On the other hand you have a game whose devs sat down and at least tried to come up with ideas how to keep you interested in the game for as long as possible. Two completely different sets of design goals. I can only speak for myself but I would much rather have the latter set dominate the gaming industry.
The game is designed still the same way, just some things are placed in the cash shop - instead of paying $15 sub and hitting lvl 10 to recieve additional inventory space, there is no entry fee and no sub and you may purchase additional inventory space from cash shop.
Same design, different monetization.
Just because you place certain game features and content into a cash shop does not mean anyone is trying to make your life miserable or manipulate you, that is just silly.
This has nothing to do with "fun".
One recent example would be BDO, where the dropped / crafted gear is either plain or practically non existent, while you can buy $30.00 costumes in the cash shop that not only look tons better, but actually have stats/benefits to them.
In fact, that's only one of many designs in BDO where players are strongly encouraged to purchase things from the cash shop, I think they were brilliant (in an evil genius sort of way) in how they did it, probably one of the best I've ever seen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It does not change design, just place certain things into a cash shop - instead of loot drop, you purchase from cash shop.
Still the same design.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
/ mic drop
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well, do you have access to all the information to base all that on?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
So if you play less you pay less and if a player prefers to play for free they can then pick which access is going to be restricted. Surely you agree that when you play for free there should be restrictions to what you can access. That is only fair to those who pay the full price.
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I will make it very simple for you. Here is your claim: You also claim that cash shop takes away from fun.
If that is true, one must also assume that sub takes away from fun too and thus your claim is false.
...or, one could reasonably assume that money do make a difference whether we play a game or not, and it has nothing to do with "fun", customers are pricing sensitive(no surprise there).
My 25 cents anyway.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Blizzard doesn't even give content patches for an entire year of subscription! You buy the expansion, and get content, that is it.
Mostly seems that companies that make the most money give you no content, and those that make the least try harder like SoE with Everquest 1 and 2. It is okay to give some exclusive mounts and pets/cosmetics like Blizzard is doing, but not when you are subscription only.... On top of that, when you are literally giving no in-game content as well?
So, subscription isn't fair because Blizzard and companies like Square Enix with FFIV Online: A Realm Reborn are selling things in shops on top of your subscription! You can't even get a subscription only game now!! Best to be Buy to Play and force people to buy the game and expansions, because you will get stuck with a marketplace anyway....
/quote This would be 90% of everyone's preferred option. However, it does not appear that this model is bringing in enough cash for the devs. As almost all of them with this model have started in game cash for RL cash conversions. /endquote
They did this to stop people from selling gold with fraudalent stolen credit cards and hacked accounts. By selling it yourself you make money because players will always buy in-game currency for RL money, and this way they don't have to support criminals and break the economy in order to do so. Since, apparently they can't just block the sales themselves.
Your server bandwidth usage depends on how much time you spend there logged in, so they should have a way of charging you per an hour like AoL, instead of per a month. Someone who plays 4-5 games is going to use a lot less than someone who only plays 1. So, people who play 1 MMORPG say subs are the best and a great value at $200-$300 a year, but someone who plays 4 or 5 is getting no use out of paying $1000 or more a year, because they use almost no minimal server resources whatsoever and are paying full price for not logging in.
The subscription cancel/renew random roulette is annoying, companies want a steady flow of cash, but they also want a flow of customers, if you remove the customers, you get less group/raids and paying customers quit because the population has declined. People want success, they want populations of other people, and WoW survived on its own population. Having friends/guildmates keeps people engaged and hooked on WoW. Removing subscriptions was an attempt to keep community alive, so that the people would pay the money if they had the money to pay.
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