I wonder if the objections to lock boxes is based on an aversion to gambling, or something more fundamental, such as the base price of keys. Many games use $1.00 as the basic price for keys. I wonder if they would make more money overall if the keys were 4 keys / $1? They could run sales in the cash shops, with keys at 5 keys / $1. It would be pretty simple to adjust the reward probabilities down to compensate.
I don't like gambling at $1 a chance, especially for a virtual gain. But I might be more willing to take a chance at $0.25 a chance. At $0.10 per chance, I'd probably be a semi-regular, even considering my miserly ways and fixed income.
Game companies remind me of an old joke about a PC salesman who tried to sell PCs for $10 million dollars each. When questioned about the high price, he responded, "With my commission, I only have to sell 1."
Personally I wouldn't care if they were 1 cent each...
Lock Boxes are evil.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Unless there is a high chance at getting nothing, loot boxes/crates/keys is not comparable to real gambling. The price you're paying from what I've seen is at least worth the lowest thing you would get. Outside of that these are not required for life purchases and are 100% optional. It's a stretch IMO to call these things cancer or evil when the person making the purchases should be responsible for what they are buying.
Have I personally ever bought one? Nope. Will I? Probably not. Does implementation make a title feel "greezy" to me? Usually. I just can't get past the accountability part when wondering if it's "right." We all should realize it takes money to make and continuously develop MMOs. A cursory glance at the titles that offer these purchases are B2P or F2P games. We'll do you want updates or not? "Well they could offer x or y instead." Who should be telling another company how to run or finance thier business? How people Moral Police forms of entertainment is a strange phenomenon.
Don't buy them. Problem solved. It seems an awful lot of people have problems with how other people spend their money. If people wanna gamble a bit, let them.
No they would rather blame the developers as always...Developers get no respect, ever.... even when we have no say in companys we work for... We get death threats, over a damn game, and sites like this try to make it worse with there nonsense...... Funny how they don't look in the mirror ... Media is one of the biggest problems.....I wish some gamers, and people who write these articles which actually work on a large game with a team ... Not saying all companys are perfect and some are bad , and try to rip you off....But 90% of the companys I have, do not.... Companys make what people want, and what makes them money....That is business....So should a gaming company NOT try to make money??
Don't spend it and companys won't use it...Period...They need to make money...Software is NOT cheap...I just had to buy a new server , and a new license for 3D, cost me 5k ..Just for one person... The cost of making a game, some of you would crap your pants...The amount of work, and skill involved....This is why the drop out rate is so high at colleges, they realize making a game is a real job... I have experienced all of this and seen both sides...I wish more would do the same.. This bias one sided opinion gets old.
Root of the problem is the player behind the mouse that ultimately decides whether he wants a completely cosmetic item from a video game that serves no advantage to him in any shape or form. It is his choice alone whether he does it or not. The lootboxes are flair items, pointless in reality.
A gambling addict didn't become a gambling addict because he tried out a slot machine. It isn't the slot machines fault either. It's the player that becomes addicted to that thrill of a risk-for-reward. And that same guy who got addicted to lootboxes would have or is all ready a gambling addict in some other form of gambling.
In my opinion Lootboxes do not create addicts. Gambling addicts are their own sole enemy.
I guess I wouldn't mind loot boxes so much if I could just buy out right what I actually wanted. Gamble when I want and buy when I want. I do buy tons of digital crap, just not loot boxes from companies that don't offer anything but loot boxes. (Here lookin at you Twin Saga....) I guess people really do buy lots of those loot boxes because they seem to now be everywhere
IMO - if you are dumb enough to be tempted to buy these boxes, you'll gamble away your money anywhere, they might as well tap in, its like any sintax product in existence. Why complain about them if you dont buy them? And, if you are hooked on them, seek help already and stop transferring the blame for your addictions problem.
"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said…’I’m too drunk to taste this chicken." - Ricky Bobby
Agreed completely. A drug dealer is completely innocent. Instead of
arresting the drug dealers, we should arrest the people who buy drugs in
the first place. They are the enemy.
On that same note, the 99% are at fault for being poor. The 1% are entirely innocent. So what if they take advantage of society in every way possible to further their goals. The 99% allow them to do this, so it is the fault of the 99%, not the 1%.
One day I'll be able to tell the kids, "I remember when games had treasure chests. You always smiled when you found one because they always contained good stuff. Now a days they have lock boxes which you have to buy and rarely contain anything good."
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The challenge I guess then becomes how does a publisher and/or developer create a healthy residual income stream to support a game that needs to always be online, needs continued development funds and needs to account for it's payroll.
The same way that thousands of other businesses do, by creating a product that people want and are willing to subscribe to keep.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Yet if that is the system that is best used why does no one do it anymore? WOW has a cash shop, EVE has a cash shop, FF XIV has a cash shop, is it that they are just wanting more money or is it that the costs began to rise to the point they felt the need to add addition revenue streams to compensate for lost revenue in other areas?
They wanted to make more money.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
As long as the rng boxes don't determine progression, say like a box that contained the fastest mount in game, or something that enhances weapons or armor. I don't mind them so much. I think Nexon is handling the rng boxes, pretty well as you can buy the rng boxes with ingame currency, that is earned throughout the game, so even free to play players have a chance at buying some, but even then the lucky pet box pets are not as high in seal stats as the familiars in the game.
Like any other addiction, the person is accountable for their own actions, at the start. If you know you have addictive personality, then don't buy at all. Or play games that don't have them.
There should be an option, for say like there was a box for a unicorn mount, and give you one of two choices, 10.00-15.00 for the mount itself with no rng or the rng for 5.00 per box, at the very least it will give people the choice of whether or not to gamble.
Loot boxes/crates are just as evil as the free-to-pay con and the "item store". Sell me a full game. Don't try bilk me of my money. I see right through it and stay away from those offerings.
There was a time during what I will refer to as the "Golden Age of MMOs" that we all paid a monthly sub.
It provided a predictable income stream for the publisher and developers
They in-turn developed regular content to keep all of us engaged so we would continue paying that monthly sub
Life was good
There was no need for loot boxes, cash stores, paid betas, headstarts, pay to win and all of the other evils unleashed on our hobby in the quest for "free to play" content. Now look at our hobby. Better or worse?
Ah so many calling lockboxed evil - but do you realize without them - about 99% of the current online games wouldn't even exist?
Lock boxes keep these games alive, because cosmetic items don't sell for shit in vast majority of games.
Without them the MMO genre would cease to exist.
Also the OP mention League of Legends - a game with 50mil players where cosmetics even at a tiny % of sales can float the game - not only that - cosmetics in a MOBA are a lot more viable than in other genres.
Apples and Oranges - both in terms of design (LoL = moba) and in terms of population (what MMO has 50 million players?)
Games need money. I would rather they be up front about the money and benefits than having the payment system hidden behind a game of roulette where the same item could be 1 box or 100000. I don't need scratch off lottery tickets in my MMO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There was a time during what I will refer to as the "Golden Age of MMOs" that we all paid a monthly sub.
It provided a predictable income stream for the publisher and developers
They in-turn developed regular content to keep all of us engaged so we would continue paying that monthly sub
Life was good
There was no need for loot boxes, cash stores, paid betas, headstarts, pay to win and all of the other evils unleashed on our hobby in the quest for "free to play" content. Now look at our hobby. Better or worse?
4. and then we stopped doing that. So they had to figure out a new way to earn on us.
The challenge I guess then becomes how does a publisher and/or developer create a healthy residual income stream to support a game that needs to always be online, needs continued development funds and needs to account for it's payroll.
The same way that thousands of other businesses do, by creating a product that people want and are willing to subscribe to keep.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Yet if that is the system that is best used why does no one do it anymore? WOW has a cash shop, EVE has a cash shop, FF XIV has a cash shop, is it that they are just wanting more money or is it that the costs began to rise to the point they felt the need to add addition revenue streams to compensate for lost revenue in other areas?
They wanted to make more money.
Every business wants to make money it is a business. Yet if it is such a lucrative and noble system why does no one use it? The sub prices have not changed yet everything else has gone up in price in regards to making them and maintaining them. I just don't believe ALL the companies are doing it 'just for more money' sorry I don't believe that. Perhaps I am naive to think that but I think the cost of running and developing and maintaining an MMO in 2016 is far more expensive and labor intensive than many believe it to be.
I agree, the costs have gone up. But they've gone up for everything and yet my cable company isn't doing loot boxes to offset the cost. Verizon isn't making me gamble for my next phone.
My cell phone bill in 2000 was a lot lower than it is now. My monthly fee for cable was way cheaper ten years ago. Company's raise prices, and they should be able to, but loot boxes aren't the answer. They're a dick move to be honest. Hiding content behind a gambling system is one of the things that's making me reconsider my commitment to gaming as a hobby.
When games workshop was screwing me over, at least they were only doing it by raising box prices. I didn't have to go to my local hobby shop and buy blank boxes hoping to get the models I wanted.
Raise the box price a little. Raise the sub fee a little. Raise the expansion fees a little. At the same time, make a game worth all of those fees, but for the sake of gaming as a hobby, don't hide content behind loot boxes. It's despicable.
The challenge I guess then becomes how does a publisher and/or developer create a healthy residual income stream to support a game that needs to always be online, needs continued development funds and needs to account for it's payroll.
The same way that thousands of other businesses do, by creating a product that people want and are willing to subscribe to keep.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Yet if that is the system that is best used why does no one do it anymore? WOW has a cash shop, EVE has a cash shop, FF XIV has a cash shop, is it that they are just wanting more money or is it that the costs began to rise to the point they felt the need to add addition revenue streams to compensate for lost revenue in other areas?
They wanted to make more money.
Every business wants to make money it is a business. Yet if it is such a lucrative and noble system why does no one use it? The sub prices have not changed yet everything else has gone up in price in regards to making them and maintaining them. I just don't believe ALL the companies are doing it 'just for more money' sorry I don't believe that. Perhaps I am naive to think that but I think the cost of running and developing and maintaining an MMO in 2016 is far more expensive and labor intensive than many believe it to be.
Really? WTF do you think these casino loot boxes are there for? Some developer generosity to the players or some other hogwash?
They are cash grabs.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I hope that everyone who so roundly castigated @BillMurphy in his article last week, appreciate and understand that our staff has a diverse set of opinions and we're not afraid or reluctant to present both sides of the issue.
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
Nope, my confirmation bias allows me to see the nonexistent tethers between you guys and The Ultimate Evil... EA!
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Loot boxes are there for F2P games and the likes. So yes it is for cash only. Lot's of dev's even say it is for cash because the F2P players ( most of them ) buy the boxes and lot's of them, they don't even realise but they spend as near as someone that pay subs. But they get crappy games compared to us sub players.
They can keep the boxes if they want, there games are terrible compared to the one's we have. We need to understand that F2P games are not as good as sub or B2P games. But some people don't have cash or are very poor we need to still let them have some fun in life.
The challenge I guess then becomes how does a publisher and/or developer create a healthy residual income stream to support a game that needs to always be online, needs continued development funds and needs to account for it's payroll.
The same way that thousands of other businesses do, by creating a product that people want and are willing to subscribe to keep.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Yet if that is the system that is best used why does no one do it anymore? WOW has a cash shop, EVE has a cash shop, FF XIV has a cash shop, is it that they are just wanting more money or is it that the costs began to rise to the point they felt the need to add addition revenue streams to compensate for lost revenue in other areas?
They wanted to make more money.
Tell'em it's not the amount of money you make, it's what you do with what you have that counts.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
Lock Boxes are evil.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Have I personally ever bought one? Nope. Will I? Probably not. Does implementation make a title feel "greezy" to me? Usually. I just can't get past the accountability part when wondering if it's "right." We all should realize it takes money to make and continuously develop MMOs. A cursory glance at the titles that offer these purchases are B2P or F2P games. We'll do you want updates or not? "Well they could offer x or y instead." Who should be telling another company how to run or finance thier business? How people Moral Police forms of entertainment is a strange phenomenon.
No they would rather blame the developers as always...Developers get no respect, ever.... even when we have no say in companys we work for... We get death threats, over a damn game, and sites like this try to make it worse with there nonsense...... Funny how they don't look in the mirror ... Media is one of the biggest problems.....I wish some gamers, and people who write these articles which actually work on a large game with a team ... Not saying all companys are perfect and some are bad , and try to rip you off....But 90% of the companys I have, do not.... Companys make what people want, and what makes them money....That is business....So should a gaming company NOT try to make money??
Don't spend it and companys won't use it...Period...They need to make money...Software is NOT cheap...I just had to buy a new server , and a new license for 3D, cost me 5k ..Just for one person... The cost of making a game, some of you would crap your pants...The amount of work, and skill involved....This is why the drop out rate is so high at colleges, they realize making a game is a real job... I have experienced all of this and seen both sides...I wish more would do the same.. This bias one sided opinion gets old.
A gambling addict didn't become a gambling addict because he tried out a slot machine. It isn't the slot machines fault either. It's the player that becomes addicted to that thrill of a risk-for-reward. And that same guy who got addicted to lootboxes would have or is all ready a gambling addict in some other form of gambling.
In my opinion Lootboxes do not create addicts. Gambling addicts are their own sole enemy.
Gamble when I want and buy when I want.
I do buy tons of digital crap, just not loot boxes from companies that don't offer anything but loot boxes.
(Here lookin at you Twin Saga....)
I guess people really do buy lots of those loot boxes because they seem to now be everywhere
Life is Short, Read a Book.
On that same note, the 99% are at fault for being poor. The 1% are entirely innocent. So what if they take advantage of society in every way possible to further their goals. The 99% allow them to do this, so it is the fault of the 99%, not the 1%.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Like any other addiction, the person is accountable for their own actions, at the start. If you know you have addictive personality, then don't buy at all. Or play games that don't have them.
There should be an option, for say like there was a box for a unicorn mount, and give you one of two choices, 10.00-15.00 for the mount itself with no rng or the rng for 5.00 per box, at the very least it will give people the choice of whether or not to gamble.
Let's party like it is 1863!
- It provided a predictable income stream for the publisher and developers
- They in-turn developed regular content to keep all of us engaged so we would continue paying that monthly sub
- Life was good
There was no need for loot boxes, cash stores, paid betas, headstarts, pay to win and all of the other evils unleashed on our hobby in the quest for "free to play" content.Now look at our hobby. Better or worse?
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I would rather they be up front about the money and benefits than having the payment system hidden behind a game of roulette where the same item could be 1 box or 100000. I don't need scratch off lottery tickets in my MMO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This have been a good conversation
My cell phone bill in 2000 was a lot lower than it is now. My monthly fee for cable was way cheaper ten years ago. Company's raise prices, and they should be able to, but loot boxes aren't the answer. They're a dick move to be honest. Hiding content behind a gambling system is one of the things that's making me reconsider my commitment to gaming as a hobby.
When games workshop was screwing me over, at least they were only doing it by raising box prices. I didn't have to go to my local hobby shop and buy blank boxes hoping to get the models I wanted.
Raise the box price a little. Raise the sub fee a little. Raise the expansion fees a little. At the same time, make a game worth all of those fees, but for the sake of gaming as a hobby, don't hide content behind loot boxes. It's despicable.
They are cash grabs.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
They can keep the boxes if they want, there games are terrible compared to the one's we have. We need to understand that F2P games are not as good as sub or B2P games. But some people don't have cash or are very poor we need to still let them have some fun in life.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey