So would we rather see the box price raised to say $70 or $80? I mean game prices have remained the same for 20 years or so right?
Boxes? What are these box things you speak of?
Digital distribution is a hell of a lot cheaper than trucking boxes around - that part of the cost has gone down. At the same time the customer base also mushroomed tremendously increasing unit sales... still not buying the "they need to add gambling to stay afloat" argument.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I see the usual cop out...the games are not good enough to earn a sub. Thank you for playing.
If you can provide an argument for a title where that title wasn't excessively niche, severely troubled at launch, stumbling with content, shallow in gameplay, or an effective copy of dozens of others, then you would have something for your argument to stand on.
At present you do not have that. As such, if there are no products that have a means of standing out and gaining a dedicated market, there is no potential for their success and they are doomed to floundering through whatever means they can use to gain a revenue at the expense of the quality of the core product.
It might be a rock-solid game in terms of gameplay and user experience even, but if it's something you are going to log into and play for a bit and find yourself constantly comparing to twelve other titles of the same basic principles, then you are going to find your interest to wear fast. The game isn't good because it doesn't do anything to make it worth remembering.
There's a myriad of reasons like this that I can explain from the matter of marketplace saturation, middleware costs, major release errors, poor game support, super-niche gameplay, etc. When you put that in simple terms, they are just not good enough.
I can provide all these different reasons and rationally, and your counterargument is "that's a copout"?
Now, what's actually a cop-out would be your statement just now. Would you like to provide a reasonable argument for your opinion?
EDIT: And you can see cheyane from the way Craft is still presently voting in this thread the exact point my previous edit which spurred you responding to me exactly illustrates. He goes from "LOL"ing on posts of mine and agreeing with yours, to agreeing with the posts of Iselin on the last page even though the argument Iselin poses is a reflection of the same which I had made. This means Craft either has no consistency to his opinion, or his intentions are singularly to spite individuals without regard to the faults in logic it produces.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Overwatch's lootbox system is fine. I have almost everything I want, maybe just need one or two more legendary skins. I play a lot and have only spent $20 on lootboxes, but just because I wanted to. I didn't feel obligated and it's all cosmetic anyway.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ESO has created a brilliant monetization hybrid, really should be the gold standard.
One can B2P the base game, never spend a penny more, and have at least 2 or 3 months of fun. Maybe more or less for some naturally. But you get your money's worth.
The cash shop is Cosmetic and Convenience only. Nothing in it is P2W unless you want to take the 'time saved = P2W' argument. As an example, you can purchase becoming a werewolf from the Cash Shop.
Now I've done that quest before. It was fun the first time around. No desire to do it again, so I bought it for the equivalent of $15. Saved myself at least 5 hours and spent that time doing things I enjoyed. But on the grand plan, is my saving 5, or even 10, hours really that big of an advantage? Considering that the most powerful players are the ones who put in thousands of hours, I think it is negligible.
Then there are XP Scrolls. 5 of them for $10. Each give 50% more xp for two hours. I like using them but I'm still a casual altaholic. I suppose at higher levels they might make a difference, but there are also in-game potions that give the same XP but for a shorter duration.
And that is it I think in terms of any argument about ESO being P2W.
Now what they have done with the optional sub is really the brilliant part. When it first launched there was very little reason to justify it beyond 'supporting the company'. All it offered was a 10% bonus to XP and Gold.
NOW, for a measly $15/month, "ESO +" gives you access to all the DLC for free (4 and counting), 1500 Crowns ($15) for the Cash Shop, and perhaps most importantly the Craft Bag, an account wide storage system for gathered materials. I came back specifically for that because crafting was an amazing PITA with limited storage, even using mules.
The cosmetics in the Cash Shop are wide in variety and change out every month. I would say I own about 60% of everything that has been offered. The ones I don't just weren't to my taste.
So subbing in Elder Scrolls Online is really a no brainer if you discover you like the game and, like me, stick with one main game for 2 or 3 years typically.
Because of the very odd hours I keep I play on the Euro server. It is always hustling no matter which city I go to. If I were to make an inference about game health based solely on population I would say ESO is a 20 year old triathlete.
BUT, I also see a lot of cosmetics in terms of pets, costumes and mounts. While only anecdotal, I find it dubious that ESO needed to do RNG boxes. I could be totally wrong, but I've been playing MMO's as my main form of entertainment since '98 or so and I've seen games on the death clock. ESO seems the very opposite of that.
So why RNG boxes when they have this 'brilliant monetization hybrid' to quote a smart, handsome and big-handed man?
More. That's what it boils down to. They want more. Same as everybody on the planet. And they will find that more is never enough. Hopefully they won't screw it up while charging at those green Washington Windmills. If they do, well there are other games to play. Vindictus doesn't have 'Ye Ole Loot Crates' yet, right?
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
Why don't we let children play in casinos?
There is a huge untapped market there.
Free market, Fuck ethics
In North America? Probably because casinos lead to sex... and sex can lead to dancing
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In North America? Probably because casinos lead to sex... and sex can lead to dancing
I sense movie potential here. A fish out of water tale about a flashy, big city game designer relocating to a rural, backwoods game company where RNG boxes aren't allowed...
Actually it says 94% came from EU and NA (47% from each, not 47% for both). So there's the rest of that billion you missed right there.
What you did was try to say how the eastern market was the majority userbase and that their model was not built on subscriptions, where the revenue must then be from shop sales. My counterpoint is the fact that the scale of the market in one region is largely an inconsequential metric if you compare it to the global marketplace for the product and it's major sources of revenue.
No actually my point was made clearly and you confirmed it with a 7 year old link. When did Blizzard's sparkle pony hit the servers? early 2010. Their cash shop was a way to bolster their lie. I never for a second thought Blizzard had 12.5 million subscribers. They didn't say that many playing the game. They said subscribers. I don't believe it.
I gotta tell ya, Blizzard is just hurting for dough
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
When I was a child back in the 60s (before personal computers) there were these gumball "machines" in the grocery store lobby which we passed by every week.
Put in a nickel, get a piece of gum, which was overpriced, but not a bad deal.
Then they put in machines for a dime or quarter that showed a variety of toys you could "win". Some looked very cool and were worth more than what you paid, but most of the displayed items were junk.
Guess what the machine dispensed most of the time? Junk of course, in fact I'm not sure I ever won the highly valued prizes and my parents being much wiser quickly stopped providing money for them. I would sneak off at times and still try, never successful so I soon learned not to play.
Many other examples of RNG or gambling with the odds stacked against me including carnival hawkers and the games of "skill" to church sponsored bingo and even 2 dollar blackjack at their annual festivals.
I even recall the local market had "punch" boards, pay a dime, maybe win a dollar back.
Point of all this is children have been exposed to RNG and gambling long before the 1st video game was ever created so as another said in Bill's thread, "Save the children" is not an argument that should ever be used.
Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no.
It's really just that simple, say no if you don't want to buy them.
But as Bill said, there really is no reason to endlessly complain about loot boxes, they are here to stay, especially if you cannot provide alternate and equally surefire ways to generate revenue.
Saying build a better game or provide more regular content simply isn't good enough, there is little evidence to support either approach is either practical or even possible. (outside of a handful of titles which are outliers due to their mechanics or unique IPs.)
Ya...
Now a days, I can't drive 5 miles without passing a casino. Government is addicted to them.
Maybe the kids can start playing in them. The games are non violent and instead of gumballs or a useless prize, they can win a dollar to put towards their college education.
Here here! Give us the option to not even pick up loot boxes since all you have to do is get close to one and it goes into your inventory. I remember in the days of City of Heroes it was said the least popular additions were the one with costume options. I was surprised since costume contests were very popular with the players.
I'm just not getting why people think they are so bad.
1: They are purely voluntary. No requirement, so no skin off my nose if you buy them.
2: P2W argument is shallow. I don't know of anyone who lootboxed they're way to the top of the boards. Sometimes you do get things which are a help, but the odds and the quantities are such that it's a silly argument.
3: It seems like the basic argument is that people feel the companies are trying to make money and people don't like it and feel like they are getting fleeced. If you don't buy them, you're not fleeced, so move on. Companies need to make money. They 'I'll never pay crowd' and 'not my money' are the ones truly hurting the genre. Since people have 1000 excuses on why they shouldn't have to pay, the companies have to generate revenue somehow.
4: Let people spend money how they see fit. Everyone who buys the lootboxes knows that it's a moneypit. However, there is that sense of gambling that some people like and more power to them. They're keeping these games afloat for the freeloaders.
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
When I was a child back in the 60s (before personal computers) there were these gumball "machines" in the grocery store lobby which we passed by every week.
Put in a nickel, get a piece of gum, which was overpriced, but not a bad deal.
Then they put in machines for a dime or quarter that showed a variety of toys you could "win". Some looked very cool and were worth more than what you paid, but most of the displayed items were junk.
Guess what the machine dispensed most of the time? Junk of course, in fact I'm not sure I ever won the highly valued prizes and my parents being much wiser quickly stopped providing money for them. I would sneak off at times and still try, never successful so I soon learned not to play.
Many other examples of RNG or gambling with the odds stacked against me including carnival hawkers and the games of "skill" to church sponsored bingo and even 2 dollar blackjack at their annual festivals.
I even recall the local market had "punch" boards, pay a dime, maybe win a dollar back.
Point of all this is children have been exposed to RNG and gambling long before the 1st video game was ever created so as another said in Bill's thread, "Save the children" is not an argument that should ever be used.
Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no.
It's really just that simple, say no if you don't want to buy them.
But as Bill said, there really is no reason to endlessly complain about loot boxes, they are here to stay, especially if you cannot provide alternate and equally surefire ways to generate revenue.
Saying build a better game or provide more regular content simply isn't good enough, there is little evidence to support either approach is either practical or even possible. (outside of a handful of titles which are outliers due to their mechanics or unique IPs.)
Ya...
Now a days, I can't drive 5 miles without passing a casino. Government is addicted to them.
Maybe the kids can start playing in them. The games are non violent and instead of gumballs or a useless prize, they can win a dollar to put towards their college education.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
When I was a child back in the 60s (before personal computers) there were these gumball "machines" in the grocery store lobby which we passed by every week.
Put in a nickel, get a piece of gum, which was overpriced, but not a bad deal.
Then they put in machines for a dime or quarter that showed a variety of toys you could "win". Some looked very cool and were worth more than what you paid, but most of the displayed items were junk.
Guess what the machine dispensed most of the time? Junk of course, in fact I'm not sure I ever won the highly valued prizes and my parents being much wiser quickly stopped providing money for them. I would sneak off at times and still try, never successful so I soon learned not to play.
Many other examples of RNG or gambling with the odds stacked against me including carnival hawkers and the games of "skill" to church sponsored bingo and even 2 dollar blackjack at their annual festivals.
I even recall the local market had "punch" boards, pay a dime, maybe win a dollar back.
Point of all this is children have been exposed to RNG and gambling long before the 1st video game was ever created so as another said in Bill's thread, "Save the children" is not an argument that should ever be used.
Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no.
It's really just that simple, say no if you don't want to buy them.
But as Bill said, there really is no reason to endlessly complain about loot boxes, they are here to stay, especially if you cannot provide alternate and equally surefire ways to generate revenue.
Saying build a better game or provide more regular content simply isn't good enough, there is little evidence to support either approach is either practical or even possible. (outside of a handful of titles which are outliers due to their mechanics or unique IPs.)
Ya...
Now a days, I can't drive 5 miles without passing a casino. Government is addicted to them.
Maybe the kids can start playing in them. The games are non violent and instead of gumballs or a useless prize, they can win a dollar to put towards their college education.
No harm in it at all.
Hyperbole never makes for a valid argument.
/mic drop
But it sure is heating up this discussion.
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
I'm just not getting why people think they are so bad.
1: They are purely voluntary. No requirement, so no skin off my nose if you buy them.
2: P2W argument is shallow. I don't know of anyone who lootboxed they're way to the top of the boards. Sometimes you do get things which are a help, but the odds and the quantities are such that it's a silly argument.
3: It seems like the basic argument is that people feel the companies are trying to make money and people don't like it and feel like they are getting fleeced. If you don't buy them, you're not fleeced, so move on. Companies need to make money. They 'I'll never pay crowd' and 'not my money' are the ones truly hurting the genre. Since people have 1000 excuses on why they shouldn't have to pay, the companies have to generate revenue somehow.
4: Let people spend money how they see fit. Everyone who buys the lootboxes knows that it's a moneypit. However, there is that sense of gambling that some people like and more power to them. They're keeping these games afloat for the freeloaders.
So you don't see any connection between a focus on lootbox-type monetization and a lower quality product?
I mean, those are some pretty nice strawman arguments but who's saying companies shouldn't make money, lootboxes are mandatory or people shouldn't be able to spend money how they like?
If you think p2w lootboxes aren't a thing check out the Trove events in BnS.
RNG in general has played a major part in me avoiding certain mmo's or leaving much sooner than I would without it. In particular, loot boxes (even cosmetic) are an unnecessary and greedy move by developers. I miss the days when you just paid a monthly subscription and you knew that you needed to spend 500 hours to get the currency to buy item X.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Why don't we bring in this type of system in for everything.
Hey... Kind of hard making money in the grocery business. I know... how about we sell you RNG grocery boxes and you just hope for the best. Maybe if you're really lucky, there might be a piece of meat in there for you.
You know.... There's no cash prize... it ain't gambling.
What a good way to teach our children how to earn things.
And yes a very significant number of the people playing these games are children and the gaming industry is just shoving this shit down their throats.
This kind of win epic loot crap entices children more than any other age group. Keep this garbage out of games where kids play.
You can do a lot more than vote with your wallet. If you feel strongly, contact your local member of government and let them know how you feel about it.
This shit is like the wild west right now, They all going for a piece of the action. Even the Multibillion dollar conglomerates are in... you know the poor ones that buy up everything.
Industries incapable of regulating themselves is nothing new. Someone always ends up having to step in and clean it up.
I don't like lootboxes, but isn't this argument dangerously close to the "video games teaches our children violence" argument?
Are we going to ban trading cards now too? Cereals that have a chance to contain a rare prize in the box?
When I was a child back in the 60s (before personal computers) there were these gumball "machines" in the grocery store lobby which we passed by every week.
Put in a nickel, get a piece of gum, which was overpriced, but not a bad deal.
Then they put in machines for a dime or quarter that showed a variety of toys you could "win". Some looked very cool and were worth more than what you paid, but most of the displayed items were junk.
Guess what the machine dispensed most of the time? Junk of course, in fact I'm not sure I ever won the highly valued prizes and my parents being much wiser quickly stopped providing money for them. I would sneak off at times and still try, never successful so I soon learned not to play.
Many other examples of RNG or gambling with the odds stacked against me including carnival hawkers and the games of "skill" to church sponsored bingo and even 2 dollar blackjack at their annual festivals.
I even recall the local market had "punch" boards, pay a dime, maybe win a dollar back.
Point of all this is children have been exposed to RNG and gambling long before the 1st video game was ever created so as another said in Bill's thread, "Save the children" is not an argument that should ever be used.
Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no.
It's really just that simple, say no if you don't want to buy them.
But as Bill said, there really is no reason to endlessly complain about loot boxes, they are here to stay, especially if you cannot provide alternate and equally surefire ways to generate revenue.
Saying build a better game or provide more regular content simply isn't good enough, there is little evidence to support either approach is either practical or even possible. (outside of a handful of titles which are outliers due to their mechanics or unique IPs.)
Ya...
Now a days, I can't drive 5 miles without passing a casino. Government is addicted to them.
Maybe the kids can start playing in them. The games are non violent and instead of gumballs or a useless prize, they can win a dollar to put towards their college education.
No harm in it at all.
Hyperbole never makes for a valid argument.
/mic drop
True:
My first statement is not hyperbole, it is a fact in Metro Vancouver where I live. One of the first things you see when you step into one, is an electronic sign giving you a toll free number to call if you have gambling issues because the government cares.
I grew up in the same time as you.
Those things were considered to be harmless back in those days. Now seeing how things are today, I would argue that it was not the case.
This is not gumball machines sitting in a grocery store anymore. This is an industry valued in the 10's of billions of dollars. Kids are spending more time in this environment than they are watching TV.
"Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no."
You don't see whats wrong with this?
What is a game to your friends grandson? Can his parents control what he thinks?
IMHO this is a total perversion of games, and look how young your friends Grandson is being indoctrinated.
Were all entitled to our opinions and mine is that this is just wrong.
So why can't we bring our kids and grand kids to the casino with us?
Never bought a loot box in Champions. I really didn't need those things at all. Thought the system was annoying, as I kept picking up those boxes. Just filler in my inventory. 100% against that system. Worst system, and really prevents me from enjoying games made by Perfect World, which incl. Neverwinter.
Never bought the random packs in SWtor, but thought the system alright, as it did not influence my game (especially inventory) at all, AND if I wanted something from those packs, I could go in the auction house and buy it, with in-game credits from another player, who had the $$$, and needed the credits.
Overwatch. Best system. You can still get loot boxes by playing. If you don't have the patience, yes, you can buy in to it, but those cosmetic items is not locked away by a pay wall.
That's how it should be done. Give players an opportunity to get those cosmetic things in-game, and for people with lack of time, let them be able to buy it for $$$. (Keyword; cosmetic. Anything else, is a big NO NO).
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
*puts tinfoil hat on*
Maybe some developer paid you to say exactly that!
*throws tinfoil hat away*
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I hope that everyone who so roundly castigated @BillMurphy in his article last week, appreciate and understand that our staff has a diverse set of opinions and we're not afraid or reluctant to present both sides of the issue.
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
IMO, Bill was out of line. He got called out for it too. As for the rest of your post, did you really need to say it? It sounds contrived if you ask me.
I hope that everyone who so roundly castigated @BillMurphy in his article last week, appreciate and understand that our staff has a diverse set of opinions and we're not afraid or reluctant to present both sides of the issue.
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
IMO, Bill was out of line. He got called out for it too. As for the rest of your post, did you really need to say it? It sounds contrived if you ask me.
Why is someone voicing their opinion out of line? Especially because they did not do it in a way other than professional?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Digital distribution is a hell of a lot cheaper than trucking boxes around - that part of the cost has gone down. At the same time the customer base also mushroomed tremendously increasing unit sales... still not buying the "they need to add gambling to stay afloat" argument.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
At present you do not have that. As such, if there are no products that have a means of standing out and gaining a dedicated market, there is no potential for their success and they are doomed to floundering through whatever means they can use to gain a revenue at the expense of the quality of the core product.
It might be a rock-solid game in terms of gameplay and user experience even, but if it's something you are going to log into and play for a bit and find yourself constantly comparing to twelve other titles of the same basic principles, then you are going to find your interest to wear fast. The game isn't good because it doesn't do anything to make it worth remembering.
There's a myriad of reasons like this that I can explain from the matter of marketplace saturation, middleware costs, major release errors, poor game support, super-niche gameplay, etc. When you put that in simple terms, they are just not good enough.
I can provide all these different reasons and rationally, and your counterargument is "that's a copout"?
Now, what's actually a cop-out would be your statement just now. Would you like to provide a reasonable argument for your opinion?
EDIT: And you can see cheyane from the way Craft is still presently voting in this thread the exact point my previous edit which spurred you responding to me exactly illustrates. He goes from "LOL"ing on posts of mine and agreeing with yours, to agreeing with the posts of Iselin on the last page even though the argument Iselin poses is a reflection of the same which I had made. This means Craft either has no consistency to his opinion, or his intentions are singularly to spite individuals without regard to the faults in logic it produces.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One can B2P the base game, never spend a penny more, and have at least 2 or 3 months of fun. Maybe more or less for some naturally. But you get your money's worth.
The cash shop is Cosmetic and Convenience only. Nothing in it is P2W unless you want to take the 'time saved = P2W' argument. As an example, you can purchase becoming a werewolf from the Cash Shop.
Now I've done that quest before. It was fun the first time around. No desire to do it again, so I bought it for the equivalent of $15. Saved myself at least 5 hours and spent that time doing things I enjoyed. But on the grand plan, is my saving 5, or even 10, hours really that big of an advantage? Considering that the most powerful players are the ones who put in thousands of hours, I think it is negligible.
Then there are XP Scrolls. 5 of them for $10. Each give 50% more xp for two hours. I like using them but I'm still a casual altaholic. I suppose at higher levels they might make a difference, but there are also in-game potions that give the same XP but for a shorter duration.
And that is it I think in terms of any argument about ESO being P2W.
Now what they have done with the optional sub is really the brilliant part. When it first launched there was very little reason to justify it beyond 'supporting the company'. All it offered was a 10% bonus to XP and Gold.
NOW, for a measly $15/month, "ESO +" gives you access to all the DLC for free (4 and counting), 1500 Crowns ($15) for the Cash Shop, and perhaps most importantly the Craft Bag, an account wide storage system for gathered materials. I came back specifically for that because crafting was an amazing PITA with limited storage, even using mules.
The cosmetics in the Cash Shop are wide in variety and change out every month. I would say I own about 60% of everything that has been offered. The ones I don't just weren't to my taste.
So subbing in Elder Scrolls Online is really a no brainer if you discover you like the game and, like me, stick with one main game for 2 or 3 years typically.
Because of the very odd hours I keep I play on the Euro server. It is always hustling no matter which city I go to. If I were to make an inference about game health based solely on population I would say ESO is a 20 year old triathlete.
BUT, I also see a lot of cosmetics in terms of pets, costumes and mounts. While only anecdotal, I find it dubious that ESO needed to do RNG boxes. I could be totally wrong, but I've been playing MMO's as my main form of entertainment since '98 or so and I've seen games on the death clock. ESO seems the very opposite of that.
So why RNG boxes when they have this 'brilliant monetization hybrid' to quote a smart, handsome and big-handed man?
More. That's what it boils down to. They want more. Same as everybody on the planet. And they will find that more is never enough. Hopefully they won't screw it up while charging at those green Washington Windmills. If they do, well there are other games to play. Vindictus doesn't have 'Ye Ole Loot Crates' yet, right?
There is a huge untapped market there.
Free market, Fuck ethics
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
http://www.rex-ny.com/activision-blizzard/
Acti-Blizz paying 6 billion for King Games tells you what kind of cash is earned with this type of business model.
How did these companies ever survive selling boxes and subs.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Now a days, I can't drive 5 miles without passing a casino. Government is addicted to them.
Maybe the kids can start playing in them. The games are non violent and instead of gumballs or a useless prize, they can win a dollar to put towards their college education.
No harm in it at all.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
1: They are purely voluntary. No requirement, so no skin off my nose if you buy them.
2: P2W argument is shallow. I don't know of anyone who lootboxed they're way to the top of the boards. Sometimes you do get things which are a help, but the odds and the quantities are such that it's a silly argument.
3: It seems like the basic argument is that people feel the companies are trying to make money and people don't like it and feel like they are getting fleeced. If you don't buy them, you're not fleeced, so move on. Companies need to make money. They 'I'll never pay crowd' and 'not my money' are the ones truly hurting the genre. Since people have 1000 excuses on why they shouldn't have to pay, the companies have to generate revenue somehow.
4: Let people spend money how they see fit. Everyone who buys the lootboxes knows that it's a moneypit. However, there is that sense of gambling that some people like and more power to them. They're keeping these games afloat for the freeloaders.
I self identify as a monkey.
/mic drop
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
I mean, those are some pretty nice strawman arguments but who's saying companies shouldn't make money, lootboxes are mandatory or people shouldn't be able to spend money how they like?
If you think p2w lootboxes aren't a thing check out the Trove events in BnS.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
My first statement is not hyperbole, it is a fact in Metro Vancouver where I live. One of the first things you see when you step into one, is an electronic sign giving you a toll free number to call if you have gambling issues because the government cares.
I grew up in the same time as you.
Those things were considered to be harmless back in those days. Now seeing how things are today, I would argue that it was not the case.
This is not gumball machines sitting in a grocery store anymore. This is an industry valued in the 10's of billions of dollars. Kids are spending more time in this environment than they are watching TV.
"Parent's should however be watching their children and controlling what they buy. My friend just told me his 5 yr old grandson is always bringing over his cell phone with his latest game and its asking for more money to unlock new content, buy more lives, or yes, take a chance to win something. My friend just tells him no."
You don't see whats wrong with this?
What is a game to your friends grandson? Can his parents control what he thinks?
IMHO this is a total perversion of games, and look how young your friends Grandson is being indoctrinated.
Were all entitled to our opinions and mine is that this is just wrong.
So why can't we bring our kids and grand kids to the casino with us?
Where is the harm?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Never bought the random packs in SWtor, but thought the system alright, as it did not influence my game (especially inventory) at all, AND if I wanted something from those packs, I could go in the auction house and buy it, with in-game credits from another player, who had the $$$, and needed the credits.
Overwatch. Best system. You can still get loot boxes by playing. If you don't have the patience, yes, you can buy in to it, but those cosmetic items is not locked away by a pay wall.
That's how it should be done. Give players an opportunity to get those cosmetic things in-game, and for people with lack of time, let them be able to buy it for $$$. (Keyword; cosmetic. Anything else, is a big NO NO).
*puts tinfoil hat on*
Maybe some developer paid you to say exactly that!
*throws tinfoil hat away*
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
As for the rest of your post, did you really need to say it? It sounds contrived if you ask me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo