There are many MMOs that could be remade. Asherons call comes to mind, it would certainly need a lot of freshening up but it did have it's own unique style. Anarchy online is another one.
SWG and TOR I would stay away from, neither of them did what the IP deserved. SWG certainly had some mechanics that could deserve a reincarnation but a good Star wars MMO should feel like you are living one of the movies. They should have used a unique IP for it.
DDO could also need a remake, but I think I would mix that one up with Biowares "Neverwinter nights" to get a more pen and paper feeling to it. It wouldn't be a MMO though, more something you run with a group of friends and with a few graphical hubs to recruit new players when needed, and a permanent DM for each group.Not much gear focus though. Also, I would skip the Eberon setting and use Forgotten realms or Dragonlance (the latter would probably be best, it has a nice feeling to it that differs from most MMOs).
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
@Immodium, @Sioned, @cameltosis, @Theodwulf, @waynejr2, and @Octagon7711 I also like SWG Pre-Cu/NGE, but I can’t imagine new players actually tolerating it. It took me 7 months to level my first toon to M Creature Handler / M Carbineer playing 16 hours a week all on Naboo in Tantel armour and Hot Pants. This was before I knew about AFK Macro Leveling (which was in game from day one). I leveled a M TKA / M Commando in eight days (four days for each). I did this after WoW, so my server and the grind locations were empty.
But some players would hate the idea of macro leveling, while other would demand it or add hacks for it. My first macros didn’t repeat and were to to mount and dismount my speeder bike. They also ran my current skill rotation, once. My feeling is that Macros would have to stay, or they would be added as hacks and mods.
My next question is HOW would you improve skill choice / rotations / situational abilities. Skills were single target, AOE / multi-target (Agro), or state changing (ie. bleed, dizzy, or knock down). The thing I didn’t like, was how each weapon targeted a different ham bar. Pistols attacked the Health, Carbines the Action, and Rifles the Mind. The same for melee, but I pretty much ignored them. Not all their attacks but one special High Damage skill would. The idea was if a hole existed in a mob’s defense, your squad could take advantage of it. But if every character couldn’t attack the same bar, then weakness couldn’t be truly exploited. That is how I would improve the usefulness of skills, or If one player used that bar focused skill it would apply to the entire squad.
So, addressing the combat stuff, I'd essentially be looking to convert SWGs skills into something more similar to LotRO. Taking pikeman as an example (my favourite profession):
At master pikeman, you have the following pikeman abilities:
Polearm hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm stun 1, 2 Polearm spin attack 1, 2 Polearm leg hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm area attack 1, 2 Polearm sweep 1 Polearm action hit 1, 2
Plus the other taunts and stuff from brawler.
So, that is 8 unique skills, but 15 actual abilities - 7 completely redundant. Out of those 8 skills, some were pointless too, so it was very common to only use 4 of those skills (hit 3, stun 2, area 2, sweep 1).
Were I to revamp the combat system, I would make each of those 15 abilities unique and useful, and put cooldowns on them. So, I'd probably go for 7 direct combat abilities (that would form your rotation), 5 situational abilities (like self-heal on long cooldown, self buff for burst damage etc) and 3 or 4 group-specific abilities (like taunts, group buffs etc).
In this way, you retain all the professions and character freedom, but combat becomes more involved. You need to develop and execute your rotation, but you'd have to balance combat so that situational abilities would be needed. No more running to a nest and activating an AOE macro to nuke everything, you'd actually have to target the right stuff, perform your rotation, watch out for special attacks, use your situational abilities to best effect etc.
Don't get me wrong, this would be a mammoth task and extremely hard to do with all professions and combinations thereof, but it would be doable and, imo, would result in a more interesting game.
My first leveling experience in SWG was at the Tusken Village. It was fast fun dynamic open group leveling that was ahead of it's time. You could level from a low level to max and get training from other players or from trainers in the nearby town as you go. I had a lot of fun and met a lot of good players there. Because it was such an efficient way to level that didn't take a long time it was nerfed into the ground by the devs.
I said that to say that systems like Tusken village and Tusken Fort could be brought back for modern day dynamic event groups like MMO's are using today. Not to mention other present day leveling bonuses like xp potions and scrolls. Yes SWG was a grinder but could easily be adjusted to today's standards.
I never really considered SWG that grindy. I mean, sure, the process of leveling was just killing mobs over and over, so in that respect it was grindy, but it wasn't that time consuming.
Think my first profession (TKM) took me about a month of playing maybe 6 hours a week, primarily through squill groups on tattooine, but after that first mastery it was easy. Buffs + kinetic armour = god mode, especially once you had an AOE skill. Just get buffed, put on armour then target a nest and aoe it on a macro until dead, or find a grind spot like tuskan village (I used squill caves on tatt mostly) and just run round AOEing everything.
But, despite not finding it grindy or that time consuming, the combat was dull. Just didn't require any thought at all outside of pvp (assuming you had a good template). Thats why I'd want to revamp skills and combat system, so that I actually have to think and react during combat.
TKM was my first also. Knockdown Dizzy was crazy fun.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
This is harder than I thought it'd be, so I'm picking three.
1. Air Warrior. Sure, 250 players in a map is not massive now, but it sure as shit was in the early 90s. Just make it bigger and pretty.
2. The Matrix Online. I'd have to remake my first MMO. I've never had as much fun with movement in any game as I did with just jumping around in MxO. I've still never seen the breadth of emotes and clothing options to really put you in the game and the paper-rock-scissors of interlock combat beats the snot out of any hotbar combat for 1v1s, while failing with multiple players fighting. Going to a phonebooth and changing classes at will also beats having to roll alts any day of the week. I'd make it look pretty and add content. PVE was sorely lacking in mission variety and lack of things like dungeons and the three faction PVP could use a sandboxy territorial control system, kind of like nullsec.
3. EVE Online. Speaking of nullsec, I'd do everything the same except tone down both the Nano Age and capital/supercapital projection before they became problems. When I got to the point when I was ready to spend money on things like Walking in Station, World of Darkness and Dust 1873, I would instead not fucking do that and turn one third of the stations into dead space clones that aren't carbon copies of each other and enable cooperative play in them. Oh, and no kill mails.
I would want a graphical overhaul of FFXI but that's about it. The other games I would want remade are pretty populated still like Lineage 2, and Dekaron. Although Dekaron might not be I haven't checked that in a while. FFXI with new graphics may not appeal to many people, but the current population might enjoy it, plus the game was so fun to play I just can't bring myself to do it with how it looks right now.
This is harder than I thought it'd be, so I'm picking three.
2. The Matrix Online. I'd have to remake my first MMO. I've never had as much fun with movement in any game as I did with just jumping around in MxO. I've still never seen the breadth of emotes and clothing options to really put you in the game and the paper-rock-scissors of interlock combat beats the snot out of any hotbar combat for 1v1s, while failing with multiple players fighting. Going to a phonebooth and changing classes at will also beats having to roll alts any day of the week. I'd make it look pretty and add content. PVE was sorely lacking in mission variety and lack of things like dungeons and the three faction PVP could use a sandboxy territorial control system, kind of like nullsec.
I would love to see MxO remade too, but the interlock combat was one of the main reasons the game bombed so hard.
Would love to see it remade with more choreography the way SWTOR was done.
Would also like to have Spore updated quite a bit and added on to.
@Immodium, @Sioned, @cameltosis, @Theodwulf, @waynejr2, and @Octagon7711 I also like SWG Pre-Cu/NGE, but I can’t imagine new players actually tolerating it. It took me 7 months to level my first toon to M Creature Handler / M Carbineer playing 16 hours a week all on Naboo in Tantel armour and Hot Pants. This was before I knew about AFK Macro Leveling (which was in game from day one). I leveled a M TKA / M Commando in eight days (four days for each). I did this after WoW, so my server and the grind locations were empty.
But some players would hate the idea of macro leveling, while other would demand it or add hacks for it. My first macros didn’t repeat and were to to mount and dismount my speeder bike. They also ran my current skill rotation, once. My feeling is that Macros would have to stay, or they would be added as hacks and mods.
My next question is HOW would you improve skill choice / rotations / situational abilities. Skills were single target, AOE / multi-target (Agro), or state changing (ie. bleed, dizzy, or knock down). The thing I didn’t like, was how each weapon targeted a different ham bar. Pistols attacked the Health, Carbines the Action, and Rifles the Mind. The same for melee, but I pretty much ignored them. Not all their attacks but one special High Damage skill would. The idea was if a hole existed in a mob’s defense, your squad could take advantage of it. But if every character couldn’t attack the same bar, then weakness couldn’t be truly exploited. That is how I would improve the usefulness of skills, or If one player used that bar focused skill it would apply to the entire squad.
So, addressing the combat stuff, I'd essentially be looking to convert SWGs skills into something more similar to LotRO. Taking pikeman as an example (my favourite profession):
At master pikeman, you have the following pikeman abilities:
Polearm hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm stun 1, 2 Polearm spin attack 1, 2 Polearm leg hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm area attack 1, 2 Polearm sweep 1 Polearm action hit 1, 2
Plus the other taunts and stuff from brawler.
So, that is 8 unique skills, but 15 actual abilities - 7 completely redundant. Out of those 8 skills, some were pointless too, so it was very common to only use 4 of those skills (hit 3, stun 2, area 2, sweep 1).
Were I to revamp the combat system, I would make each of those 15 abilities unique and useful, and put cooldowns on them. So, I'd probably go for 7 direct combat abilities (that would form your rotation), 5 situational abilities (like self-heal on long cooldown, self buff for burst damage etc) and 3 or 4 group-specific abilities (like taunts, group buffs etc).
In this way, you retain all the professions and character freedom, but combat becomes more involved. You need to develop and execute your rotation, but you'd have to balance combat so that situational abilities would be needed. No more running to a nest and activating an AOE macro to nuke everything, you'd actually have to target the right stuff, perform your rotation, watch out for special attacks, use your situational abilities to best effect etc.
Don't get me wrong, this would be a mammoth task and extremely hard to do with all professions and combinations thereof, but it would be doable and, imo, would result in a more interesting game.
I put together my own list of pikeman abilities and meaning, so I can understand the profession (I never leveled it).
Polearm hit 1, 2, 3 [2xdd]
Polearm stun 1, 2 [dd + stun]
Polearm spin attack 1, 2 [AOE + dizzy]
Polearm leg hit 1, 2, 3 [dd + action]
Polearm area attack 1, 2 [AOE + dizzy, stun ]
Polearm sweep 1, 2, 3 [AOE + kd]
Polearm action hit 1, 2 [dd + action wound]
Polearm Lunge 1 [dd + kd]
Center of Being [Def buff]
Knockdown Recovery [state recover]
Blind Recovery [state recover]
Dizzy Recovery [state recover]
Melee Strike [dd + action / mind cost]
Melee Hit [dd + action cost]
Warcry [AOE attack debuf]
Intimidate [attack debuf]
Taunt
Pikemen have 5 single target direct damage attacks. They also have 3 AOE (multi-target) attacks. For crowd control they have 2 single target state change attacks, and 3 AOE attacks. There is a defensive buff, that I have read is very powerful even in PvP. And an attack debuff. Plus there are state recover abilities to counter crowd control.
I was mainly a PvE player so I stuck with the AOEs once I got them. When I did NPC destroy missions I used single target attacks to lower their numbers faster. This is why I think the intent by the devs was that single target would be PvP / NPC abilities. And the AOE attacks would be PvE abilities.
I hope those self heals are from the medic profession and not abilities of the pikeman. My favorite thing about SWG was the mix and matching of different classes.
The only skills I felt were useless or redundant were the Pool attacks. Both the Leg hit and Action Sweep attacked the Action Bar Pool only. I think the other abilities attacked the Health Bar Pool, but I could be wrong. The only other situational abilities I can think of are an interrupt or a dodge / block. SWG had both dodge / block as passive automatic abilities out of the player's control.
I was never a fan of everyone wearing composite armour. What I would have liked to seen is more role specific armours. I image three types. First a Max Defense set with speed, damage, and accuracy max penalties. Second a medium defense set with medium penalties. Lastly a low defense set with no penalties. A crafter could still experiment those penalties down, but at a cost of not boosting the defense. Or they could craft with defense materials and add supplement to fight the penalties. Will just have to wait and see.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
@Immodium, @Sioned, @cameltosis, @Theodwulf, @waynejr2, and @Octagon7711 I also like SWG Pre-Cu/NGE, but I can’t imagine new players actually tolerating it. It took me 7 months to level my first toon to M Creature Handler / M Carbineer playing 16 hours a week all on Naboo in Tantel armour and Hot Pants. This was before I knew about AFK Macro Leveling (which was in game from day one). I leveled a M TKA / M Commando in eight days (four days for each). I did this after WoW, so my server and the grind locations were empty.
But some players would hate the idea of macro leveling, while other would demand it or add hacks for it. My first macros didn’t repeat and were to to mount and dismount my speeder bike. They also ran my current skill rotation, once. My feeling is that Macros would have to stay, or they would be added as hacks and mods.
My next question is HOW would you improve skill choice / rotations / situational abilities. Skills were single target, AOE / multi-target (Agro), or state changing (ie. bleed, dizzy, or knock down). The thing I didn’t like, was how each weapon targeted a different ham bar. Pistols attacked the Health, Carbines the Action, and Rifles the Mind. The same for melee, but I pretty much ignored them. Not all their attacks but one special High Damage skill would. The idea was if a hole existed in a mob’s defense, your squad could take advantage of it. But if every character couldn’t attack the same bar, then weakness couldn’t be truly exploited. That is how I would improve the usefulness of skills, or If one player used that bar focused skill it would apply to the entire squad.
So, addressing the combat stuff, I'd essentially be looking to convert SWGs skills into something more similar to LotRO. Taking pikeman as an example (my favourite profession):
At master pikeman, you have the following pikeman abilities:
Polearm hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm stun 1, 2 Polearm spin attack 1, 2 Polearm leg hit 1, 2, 3 Polearm area attack 1, 2 Polearm sweep 1 Polearm action hit 1, 2
Plus the other taunts and stuff from brawler.
So, that is 8 unique skills, but 15 actual abilities - 7 completely redundant. Out of those 8 skills, some were pointless too, so it was very common to only use 4 of those skills (hit 3, stun 2, area 2, sweep 1).
Were I to revamp the combat system, I would make each of those 15 abilities unique and useful, and put cooldowns on them. So, I'd probably go for 7 direct combat abilities (that would form your rotation), 5 situational abilities (like self-heal on long cooldown, self buff for burst damage etc) and 3 or 4 group-specific abilities (like taunts, group buffs etc).
In this way, you retain all the professions and character freedom, but combat becomes more involved. You need to develop and execute your rotation, but you'd have to balance combat so that situational abilities would be needed. No more running to a nest and activating an AOE macro to nuke everything, you'd actually have to target the right stuff, perform your rotation, watch out for special attacks, use your situational abilities to best effect etc.
Don't get me wrong, this would be a mammoth task and extremely hard to do with all professions and combinations thereof, but it would be doable and, imo, would result in a more interesting game.
My first leveling experience in SWG was at the Tusken Village. It was fast fun dynamic open group leveling that was ahead of it's time. You could level from a low level to max and get training from other players or from trainers in the nearby town as you go. I had a lot of fun and met a lot of good players there. Because it was such an efficient way to level that didn't take a long time it was nerfed into the ground by the devs.
I said that to say that systems like Tusken village and Tusken Fort could be brought back for modern day dynamic event groups like MMO's are using today. Not to mention other present day leveling bonuses like xp potions and scrolls. Yes SWG was a grinder but could easily be adjusted to today's standards.
I agree, Tusken Village & Fort were great static spawns for xp and thrill. I think the problem with it was it's small size versus a large pop server. They couldn’t accommodate the number of players showing up to use the sites. Rather than nerf them, devs should have used player distribution information and spawned additions villages and forts elsewhere on the map.
SWG servers had a real problem with players in large numbers in one spot. I always felt that SWGs maps were not fully used like say WoWs maps. Dantooine was a highly populated map. People were at Mining Outpost running missions, there were player cities with xp boosts and people were there running missions. Meanwhile planets like Naboo, Rori and Talus were empty because their static spawns didn’t draw attention.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
-add first person with hands -more races -make it more into a sand box that a hero can become any class, but has to spec accordingly - so they can carry any weapon as well -fine tune the combat a bit more - but its pretty good as it is - but with more recent times comes more action oriented combat -day/night cycles -a lot character creation options -short story but better pve world -npc alignment and politics - events and npc movement from one location to next -bounty hunting - pazaak -swoop racing - synergizing mini games into questing/story (pazaak, swoop racing, 3d space combat) -npc movement (such as caravans and relating to economy and investments) -open world pvp - seige system/conquer system and may be even specific servers that play like a dota like map that come to a quick conclusion in a month - many options to spend 'gold/credits' on - bounties, hiring npcs, buying loyalty etc - player created content - mini games, arenas, mini dungeons (think how wc3/dota2 has player made content but for an mmo that is 3d) -some non instanced housing or non instanced guild houses (relating to open world pvp) -gambling
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I never got to try SWG, and avoided it after the horrible "expansion" that destroyed it (I've heard horror stories of people that lost practically everything).
From what I heard about the original version, it sounded amazing. I'd like to see that.
Also, I'm in firm agreement with others that said DAoC (pre-ToA or whatever incarnation afterward that corrected that mess). That was one of my favorites, and although some traits were borrowed for ESO it's nowhere near the same.
I would remake Anarchy Online.. Redo the graphics, add VR support and vehicle controls animations add vehicle vrs vehicle, choice between auto or manual targetting, and Smarter mob AI... I just loved me some Rubika
Check out my band if you like music.. www.myspace.com/icrime
Comments
or World of Greyhawk.........
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
1. Air Warrior. Sure, 250 players in a map is not massive now, but it sure as shit was in the early 90s. Just make it bigger and pretty.
2. The Matrix Online. I'd have to remake my first MMO. I've never had as much fun with movement in any game as I did with just jumping around in MxO. I've still never seen the breadth of emotes and clothing options to really put you in the game and the paper-rock-scissors of interlock combat beats the snot out of any hotbar combat for 1v1s, while failing with multiple players fighting. Going to a phonebooth and changing classes at will also beats having to roll alts any day of the week. I'd make it look pretty and add content. PVE was sorely lacking in mission variety and lack of things like dungeons and the three faction PVP could use a sandboxy territorial control system, kind of like nullsec.
3. EVE Online. Speaking of nullsec, I'd do everything the same except tone down both the Nano Age and capital/supercapital projection before they became problems. When I got to the point when I was ready to spend money on things like Walking in Station, World of Darkness and Dust 1873, I would instead not fucking do that and turn one third of the stations into dead space clones that aren't carbon copies of each other and enable cooperative play in them. Oh, and no kill mails.
Would love to see it remade with more choreography the way SWTOR was done.
Would also like to have Spore updated quite a bit and added on to.
For a non-MMO: Star Control 1&2
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I agree, Tusken Village & Fort were great static spawns for xp and thrill. I think the problem with it was it's small size versus a large pop server. They couldn’t accommodate the number of players showing up to use the sites. Rather than nerf them, devs should have used player distribution information and spawned additions villages and forts elsewhere on the map.
SWG servers had a real problem with players in large numbers in one spot. I always felt that SWGs maps were not fully used like say WoWs maps. Dantooine was a highly populated map. People were at Mining Outpost running missions, there were player cities with xp boosts and people were there running missions. Meanwhile planets like Naboo, Rori and Talus were empty because their static spawns didn’t draw attention.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
-add first person with hands
-more races
-make it more into a sand box that a hero can become any class, but has to spec accordingly - so they can carry any weapon as well
-fine tune the combat a bit more - but its pretty good as it is - but with more recent times comes more action oriented combat
-day/night cycles
-a lot character creation options
-short story but better pve world
-npc alignment and politics - events and npc movement from one location to next
-bounty hunting
- pazaak
-swoop racing
- synergizing mini games into questing/story (pazaak, swoop racing, 3d space combat)
-npc movement (such as caravans and relating to economy and investments)
-open world pvp - seige system/conquer system and may be even specific servers that play like a dota like map that come to a quick conclusion in a month
- many options to spend 'gold/credits' on - bounties, hiring npcs, buying loyalty etc
- player created content - mini games, arenas, mini dungeons (think how wc3/dota2 has player made content but for an mmo that is 3d)
-some non instanced housing or non instanced guild houses (relating to open world pvp)
-gambling
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I never got to try SWG, and avoided it after the horrible "expansion" that destroyed it (I've heard horror stories of people that lost practically everything).
From what I heard about the original version, it sounded amazing. I'd like to see that.
Also, I'm in firm agreement with others that said DAoC (pre-ToA or whatever incarnation afterward that corrected that mess). That was one of my favorites, and although some traits were borrowed for ESO it's nowhere near the same.
Check out my band if you like music.. www.myspace.com/icrime