The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics.
Pay for advantage is very real in a lot of games. Some much more than others. And this is what most people mean when they say "P2W."
If you can pay money and have a PVP advantage over someone who didn't spend to the same extent common usage on internet gaming forums is to call that P2W instead of the technically more correct P2A which no one uses.
A lot of times this isn't all that clear cut either... by design. If you sell the best staff in the game in the cash shop and it's a lot better than what you can get without paying extra, that can easily be identified as an obvious advantage.
If you want to be sneakier and sidestep the P2W debate what you do instead is make it so that this staff can be crafted in the game but the natural chance of success is infinitesimally small. You then sell items in the cash shop that make the chance to craft it more reasonable... but not too reasonable since you want success to still be rare and require lots of purchases. ( As a side note: you can actually make much more money selling it this way instead of just setting a cash shop price for it... just like with selling RNG loot boxes.)
This has the advantage also that the game apologists can then go on forums and say: "How can it be pay to win when you can craft it in the game?"... and then philosophize away with the usual "what is win anyway?" as they always do.
So yeah. Calling it P2W is horseshit. But just one small kind of horseshit compared to other larger piles of steaming shitt.
Lol, it's not apologists, it's more like realists.
First of all, buying XP Pots or something through a cash shop is hardly an advantage in PvP. Honestly, if you're saying that then you're off your rocker. Please explain where this is applicable in a real game, anywhere. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how it's P2W when there are plenty of ways to advance more quickly if you're REALLY that interested in draining all of the fun out of a game. It explains why I get killed literally every WoW expansion by some max level character after advancing 2 or 3 levels myself.
Secondly, I don't think that ANYONE debating over P2W would EVER say that it's ok to sell a BiS weapon through the cash shop as long as it can be crafted in the game. I think that most would actually say that selling any BiS gear through a cash shop would definitely constitute P2W. The biggest problem is that anti-P2W advocates would have you believe that P2W like this is rampant, when it's not. It's simply a lie concocted to support their agenda. I'd say that there is, probably, 1 or 2 titles I can think of that I would say are actually P2W. Then there might be another 2 or 3 which I'd say are borderline just because of how gameplay is designed.
Unfortunately, you're just demonstrating the problem with the flip side of the coin, taking things to the extreme of anti-P2W. Honestly? If you don't want to use a cash shop then go play a game that doesn't have one, I'm sure you won't have trouble choosing because there are very few of them. Otherwise, why not try to be constructive and set realistic limits for what would be acceptable in a game so that the company can make money, while still remaining fair for players?
Did I say anything about XP pots and did I not explain how you can instead make crafting BIS weapons really, really tough and sell you crafting enhancements instead?
But nice attempt at a strawman anyway lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics.
Pay for advantage is very real in a lot of games. Some much more than others. And this is what most people mean when they say "P2W."
If you can pay money and have a PVP advantage over someone who didn't spend to the same extent common usage on internet gaming forums is to call that P2W instead of the technically more correct P2A which no one uses.
A lot of times this isn't all that clear cut either... by design. If you sell the best staff in the game in the cash shop and it's a lot better than what you can get without paying extra, that can easily be identified as an obvious advantage.
If you want to be sneakier and sidestep the P2W debate what you do instead is make it so that this staff can be crafted in the game but the natural chance of success is infinitesimally small. You then sell items in the cash shop that make the chance to craft it more reasonable... but not too reasonable since you want success to still be rare and require lots of purchases. ( As a side note: you can actually make much more money selling it this way instead of just setting a cash shop price for it... just like with selling RNG loot boxes.)
This has the advantage also that the game apologists can then go on forums and say: "How can it be pay to win when you can craft it in the game?"... and then philosophize away with the usual "what is win anyway?" as they always do.
So yeah. Calling it P2W is horseshit. But just one small kind of horseshit compared to other larger piles of steaming shitt.
The problem remains - it's not semantics, it's 2 entirely different concepts that should never be equated
Pay to win
And
Pay for advantage
Not even remotely the same.
But since p2w proponents use the the term however they want to suit their argument, from any game that has a cash shop being p2w, to heck anything you can imagine - p2w is clearly the KING shit.
Would you like it better if they said "pay for a a much better chance of winning a fight"? Somehow I think you would argue that this also doesn't exist in AA or BDO.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Is there a game where you pay money and get a signed "you've won certificate" from the developers?
No?
Because otherwise the term is completely meaningless as we can't even agree on what it is to "win a mmo".
So if there is no agreement of "winning" in a MMO - there sure can't be an agreement of "paying to win".
So lets just call it for what it really IS - pay for advantage - and guess what our entire world is based on the concept of "paying for advantage" - so ALL games are subject to this - because you can simply buy an account from a 3rd party that is fully geared out.
If we really wanted to prevent this - we would need a centralized system that would tie each online account to an actual person via SSN or some other unique identifier (like maybe a DNA reader - yeah futuretech) and then it would be impossible to sell accounts.
Until that happens - all games are pay for advantage - and if you think that "P2W = pay for advantage" - then all games are P2W - thus in turn - making the term completely meaningless.
So why even bring it up - in the end - you play a game, are you having fun? If yes - well great, if no - go try another one.
And if you are having fun, maybe you even spend some money on it - I know crazy right - support games you like - or you might end up like that guy who was making threads like "it's been 5 years since I've spent any money on a game" ... heh
Yeah.
Start with this; the battle not the war. Think about that.
The term is absolutely not completely meaningless, as I state above think about the one on one encounters or PvP match ups if one person in the fight has paid for any advantage the field is no longer even. Even in group PvP the battle can be swayed by just one or two people that have bought an advantage.
It might help if you think along these lines. Under any circumstance, your broad dismissal of the term is not accurate at all.
In MMO open world PvP the field is never even due to gear, level, numbers etc... difference
This is why MOBA and arena games are popular because they do have balanced PvP, MMOS don't.
Pay for advantage is real
Does advantage guarantee a win? No.
Does winning one battle mean you win the war? No.
And thats why P2W is such a crap term, because players are equating "advantage" to winning, and that's simply false, especially in MMOs where there is no clear "win" scenario.
Pay to win is horseshit.
No, it isn't. MMO's have competitive PvP arena's, ergo if someone can buy an advantage they can win the season. Guaranteed? No, but it certainly is a huge advantage. You want to argue schematics fine I will give you the grammatical win however the only actual horseshit around here is your dismissal of the fact that it exists.
Like it or lump it, it is there and your disregarding of the term won't make it go away, all it will do is invalidate your opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
But I didn't say always. I said "much better chance". Which would also be the case with clear-cut BIS sales in the hands of a klutz... that other argument.
And you don't have to remind me of the sales pitch "skip the tedium..." I've heard it many times before. You never hear the other part though "... that we deliberately created so we could charge you to skip it"
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics.
Pay for advantage is very real in a lot of games. Some much more than others. And this is what most people mean when they say "P2W."
If you can pay money and have a PVP advantage over someone who didn't spend to the same extent common usage on internet gaming forums is to call that P2W instead of the technically more correct P2A which no one uses.
A lot of times this isn't all that clear cut either... by design. If you sell the best staff in the game in the cash shop and it's a lot better than what you can get without paying extra, that can easily be identified as an obvious advantage.
If you want to be sneakier and sidestep the P2W debate what you do instead is make it so that this staff can be crafted in the game but the natural chance of success is infinitesimally small. You then sell items in the cash shop that make the chance to craft it more reasonable... but not too reasonable since you want success to still be rare and require lots of purchases. ( As a side note: you can actually make much more money selling it this way instead of just setting a cash shop price for it... just like with selling RNG loot boxes.)
This has the advantage also that the game apologists can then go on forums and say: "How can it be pay to win when you can craft it in the game?"... and then philosophize away with the usual "what is win anyway?" as they always do.
So yeah. Calling it P2W is horseshit. But just one small kind of horseshit compared to other larger piles of steaming shitt.
Lol, it's not apologists, it's more like realists.
First of all, buying XP Pots or something through a cash shop is hardly an advantage in PvP. Honestly, if you're saying that then you're off your rocker. Please explain where this is applicable in a real game, anywhere. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how it's P2W when there are plenty of ways to advance more quickly if you're REALLY that interested in draining all of the fun out of a game. It explains why I get killed literally every WoW expansion by some max level character after advancing 2 or 3 levels myself.
Secondly, I don't think that ANYONE debating over P2W would EVER say that it's ok to sell a BiS weapon through the cash shop as long as it can be crafted in the game. I think that most would actually say that selling any BiS gear through a cash shop would definitely constitute P2W. The biggest problem is that anti-P2W advocates would have you believe that P2W like this is rampant, when it's not. It's simply a lie concocted to support their agenda. I'd say that there is, probably, 1 or 2 titles I can think of that I would say are actually P2W. Then there might be another 2 or 3 which I'd say are borderline just because of how gameplay is designed.
Unfortunately, you're just demonstrating the problem with the flip side of the coin, taking things to the extreme of anti-P2W. Honestly? If you don't want to use a cash shop then go play a game that doesn't have one, I'm sure you won't have trouble choosing because there are very few of them. Otherwise, why not try to be constructive and set realistic limits for what would be acceptable in a game so that the company can make money, while still remaining fair for players?
Did I say anything about XP pots and did I not explain how you can instead make crafting BIS weapons really, really tough and sell you crafting enhancements instead?
But nice attempt at a strawman anyway lol.
Well thanks for reading one paragraph anyway. I know it's a long post.
I literally discussed the crafting bit under my second paragraph and I explicitly said that I don't think that ANYONE would accept selling a BiS weapon through the store and justifying it by saying you can craft it in the game, but with ridiculously low proc rates. The closest think I've seen to this is in Rift and they essentially sell blue gear that can be obtained easily through regular play. I can't say I've EVER seen a game sell BiS gear through the cash shop, but I'm willing to listen to some examples that you might have from your experience.
What I was referring to with XP Pots was in reference to your trying to pass off P2W as P2A (Pay to Advance). That's what people MOST commonly associate P2A with. P2A is just that, paying to progress in a game that's all about progression. XP Pots are the most common way that is facilitated. So I suppose that you could draw some correlation between progression and selling gear, but I would argue that the more common use of the term is in reference to level progression over gear progression.
Either way, I'm not making a strawman argument at all, I'm telling you flat out that you're wrong and that the vast, vast, VAST majority of games do NOT implement P2W mechanics like you're describing (selling BiS gear through a shop).
I'd be shocked if you could find 10 games that sold the best gear in the game through a shop. Fuck, I'd be surprised if you could find a handful.
''The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics. ''
These games that called p2w like archeage they arent really p2w for the 90% and more of the ppl that will play it. If we see the games that have subs and arent p2w, how many ppl (lets say win the game) have the end gear fully enchantment etc. If am not wrong is a very small percentage of the player base. So yeah for most ppl these games arent p2w, now they have a p2w element depending the shop? I ll say they have but it wont affect the majority.
The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics.
Pay for advantage is very real in a lot of games. Some much more than others. And this is what most people mean when they say "P2W."
If you can pay money and have a PVP advantage over someone who didn't spend to the same extent common usage on internet gaming forums is to call that P2W instead of the technically more correct P2A which no one uses.
A lot of times this isn't all that clear cut either... by design. If you sell the best staff in the game in the cash shop and it's a lot better than what you can get without paying extra, that can easily be identified as an obvious advantage.
If you want to be sneakier and sidestep the P2W debate what you do instead is make it so that this staff can be crafted in the game but the natural chance of success is infinitesimally small. You then sell items in the cash shop that make the chance to craft it more reasonable... but not too reasonable since you want success to still be rare and require lots of purchases. ( As a side note: you can actually make much more money selling it this way instead of just setting a cash shop price for it... just like with selling RNG loot boxes.)
This has the advantage also that the game apologists can then go on forums and say: "How can it be pay to win when you can craft it in the game?"... and then philosophize away with the usual "what is win anyway?" as they always do.
So yeah. Calling it P2W is horseshit. But just one small kind of horseshit compared to other larger piles of steaming shitt.
Lol, it's not apologists, it's more like realists.
First of all, buying XP Pots or something through a cash shop is hardly an advantage in PvP. Honestly, if you're saying that then you're off your rocker. Please explain where this is applicable in a real game, anywhere. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how it's P2W when there are plenty of ways to advance more quickly if you're REALLY that interested in draining all of the fun out of a game. It explains why I get killed literally every WoW expansion by some max level character after advancing 2 or 3 levels myself.
Secondly, I don't think that ANYONE debating over P2W would EVER say that it's ok to sell a BiS weapon through the cash shop as long as it can be crafted in the game. I think that most would actually say that selling any BiS gear through a cash shop would definitely constitute P2W. The biggest problem is that anti-P2W advocates would have you believe that P2W like this is rampant, when it's not. It's simply a lie concocted to support their agenda. I'd say that there is, probably, 1 or 2 titles I can think of that I would say are actually P2W. Then there might be another 2 or 3 which I'd say are borderline just because of how gameplay is designed.
Unfortunately, you're just demonstrating the problem with the flip side of the coin, taking things to the extreme of anti-P2W. Honestly? If you don't want to use a cash shop then go play a game that doesn't have one, I'm sure you won't have trouble choosing because there are very few of them. Otherwise, why not try to be constructive and set realistic limits for what would be acceptable in a game so that the company can make money, while still remaining fair for players?
Did I say anything about XP pots and did I not explain how you can instead make crafting BIS weapons really, really tough and sell you crafting enhancements instead?
But nice attempt at a strawman anyway lol.
Well thanks for reading one paragraph anyway. I know it's a long post.
I literally discussed the crafting bit under my second paragraph and I explicitly said that I don't think that ANYONE would accept selling a BiS weapon through the store and justifying it by saying you can craft it in the game, but with ridiculously low proc rates. The closest think I've seen to this is in Rift and they essentially sell blue gear that can be obtained easily through regular play. I can't say I've EVER seen a game sell BiS gear through the cash shop, but I'm willing to listen to some examples that you might have from your experience.
What I was referring to with XP Pots was in reference to your trying to pass off P2W as P2A (Pay to Advance). That's what people MOST commonly associate P2A with. P2A is just that, paying to progress in a game that's all about progression. XP Pots are the most common way that is facilitated. So I suppose that you could draw some correlation between progression and selling gear, but I would argue that the more common use of the term is in reference to level progression over gear progression.
Either way, I'm not making a strawman argument at all, I'm telling you flat out that you're wrong and that the vast, vast, VAST majority of games do NOT implement P2W mechanics like you're describing (selling BiS gear through a shop).
I'd be shocked if you could find 10 games that sold the best gear in the game through a shop. Fuck, I'd be surprised if you could find a handful.
But why do you keep going on about selling BIS through a shop? I only used that as an example of what most games DON'T DO because it's so easy to identify as an obvious advantage so they do it through other sneakier means such as crafting failure and cash shop items to prevent it to some extent as in Archeage.
So yeah, most games do not sell BIS in their cash shops straight up. So what the fuck are you saying otherwise that I'm wrong about?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Is there a game where you pay money and get a signed "you've won certificate" from the developers?
No?
Because otherwise the term is completely meaningless as we can't even agree on what it is to "win a mmo".
So if there is no agreement of "winning" in a MMO - there sure can't be an agreement of "paying to win".
So lets just call it for what it really IS - pay for advantage - and guess what our entire world is based on the concept of "paying for advantage" - so ALL games are subject to this - because you can simply buy an account from a 3rd party that is fully geared out.
If we really wanted to prevent this - we would need a centralized system that would tie each online account to an actual person via SSN or some other unique identifier (like maybe a DNA reader - yeah futuretech) and then it would be impossible to sell accounts.
Until that happens - all games are pay for advantage - and if you think that "P2W = pay for advantage" - then all games are P2W - thus in turn - making the term completely meaningless.
So why even bring it up - in the end - you play a game, are you having fun? If yes - well great, if no - go try another one.
And if you are having fun, maybe you even spend some money on it - I know crazy right - support games you like - or you might end up like that guy who was making threads like "it's been 5 years since I've spent any money on a game" ... heh
Yeah.
Start with this; the battle not the war. Think about that.
The term is absolutely not completely meaningless, as I state above think about the one on one encounters or PvP match ups if one person in the fight has paid for any advantage the field is no longer even. Even in group PvP the battle can be swayed by just one or two people that have bought an advantage.
It might help if you think along these lines. Under any circumstance, your broad dismissal of the term is not accurate at all.
In MMO open world PvP the field is never even due to gear, level, numbers etc... difference
This is why MOBA and arena games are popular because they do have balanced PvP, MMOS don't.
Pay for advantage is real
Does advantage guarantee a win? No.
Does winning one battle mean you win the war? No.
And thats why P2W is such a crap term, because players are equating "advantage" to winning, and that's simply false, especially in MMOs where there is no clear "win" scenario.
Pay to win is horseshit.
No, it isn't. MMO's have competitive PvP arena's, ergo if someone can buy an advantage they can win the season. Guaranteed? No, but it certainly is a huge advantage. You want to argue schematics fine I will give you the grammatical win however the only actual horseshit around here is your dismissal of the fact that it exists.
Like it or lump it, it is there and your disregarding of the term won't make it go away, all it will do is invalidate your opinion.
I'd say that if you're close to winning a season, chances are you're investing significant amounts of time into a game and there's likely nothing you could but in any shop which would provide you an advantage. Maybe someone ranked in the tens of thousands could bump up a few spots. Even that is questionable, though. Honestly, there are VERY few examples of games which actually sell gear that provides THAT significant an advantage. They're so sparse, I can't even tell you one off the top of my head. The only one I've witnessed myself would be Runes of Magic, years ago. I think it's extremely overstated, I really do. AA and BDO are definitely grey area games, though. I never played either, though, so I can't say. However, I'd be willing to bet that there is not someone with mediocre skills winning the seasons in either game just by purchasing stuff.
The post above mine ^^^^^^that one^^^^^^ is why people can't have intelligent discourse on the subject of Paying to Win.
moving the goalposts so far that one can classify any game P2W. . .to stifle dissent over true P2W games when one comes along now and again. . .such as Archeage or Black Desert.
There is no moving goal posts.
Say what the actual reality is - use the right term - pay for advantage.
You can't have an intelligent discussion on a completely flawed bullshit concept like - astrology, flat earth theory, and pay to win MMO concept.
Can we compile a list of players who won Archeage, Black Desert? No?
Can we on the other hand make a list of players who paid for an advantage? Yes.
Clearly one concept holds water, and one doesn't.
Clearly your argument is BS seeing as its just an opinion and everyone has one, try and prove one wrong. For example p2w to me is a game that offers an advantage to someone that pays real life money for it over someone who doesn't.
Attack the terminology all you want anyone that is able to apply common sense to the term, which ever one is used, will still see it the same way.
Your whole argument comes down to sophistry.
Well you just proved my point "p2w to me" - that's just it, it means something different to everyone which is why it's meaningless in a discussion.
How can you have a meaningful discussion over a term that means different things to different people?
Pay for advantage has a clear meaning that everyone understands and agrees on.
So my whole argument is simple
Pay to win is undefined phrase that has lost meaning
Pay for advantage is as clear as day, everyone agrees on what it means
Again that's sophistry, whether I say "p2w or p2a" the argument will be the same. What is considered an unfair advantage bla bla bla.
Your still arguing the term rather than what people mean. It a good way for you to pad your post count though.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Well thanks for reading one paragraph anyway. I know it's a long post.
I literally discussed the crafting bit under my second paragraph and I explicitly said that I don't think that ANYONE would accept selling a BiS weapon through the store and justifying it by saying you can craft it in the game, but with ridiculously low proc rates. The closest think I've seen to this is in Rift and they essentially sell blue gear that can be obtained easily through regular play. I can't say I've EVER seen a game sell BiS gear through the cash shop, but I'm willing to listen to some examples that you might have from your experience.
What I was referring to with XP Pots was in reference to your trying to pass off P2W as P2A (Pay to Advance). That's what people MOST commonly associate P2A with. P2A is just that, paying to progress in a game that's all about progression. XP Pots are the most common way that is facilitated. So I suppose that you could draw some correlation between progression and selling gear, but I would argue that the more common use of the term is in reference to level progression over gear progression.
Either way, I'm not making a strawman argument at all, I'm telling you flat out that you're wrong and that the vast, vast, VAST majority of games do NOT implement P2W mechanics like you're describing (selling BiS gear through a shop).
I'd be shocked if you could find 10 games that sold the best gear in the game through a shop. Fuck, I'd be surprised if you could find a handful.
But why do you keep going on about selling BIS through a shop? I only used that as an example of what most games DON'T DO because it's so easy to identify as an obvious advantage so they do it through other sneakier means such as crafting failure and cash shop items to prevent it to some extent as in Archeage.
So yeah, most games do not sell BIS in their cash shops straight up. So what the fuck are you saying otherwise that I'm wrong about?
What I'm saying is that even crafting failure isn't something that's rampant. It's something that's much more common with asian grinders than anything. RoM is an example. Allods is another example. Honestly, I didn't even know this existed in AA. The reason I would have said AA was a grey area game is only because of the real money conversion through APEX. I really haven't kept that current with it since launch though.
What I'm saying you're wrong about is your claim that this is somehow pandemic. Even the crafting failure mechanic isn't something that's present in all that many games. THAT, I could probably pick out 10 if I really tried. With that said, the level of advantage that would provide varies wildly based on the game, too.
What I WOULD agree with you about is that there are games which are more clever about hiding these types of mechanics until late-game, which sucks. However, it's not like this is anything that can't be uncovered with a simple google search.
My only real issue is the constant propagation of false information, like selling BiS gear. That being said, I think that you make a good argument, but I would only question how widespread that is. I mean if it exists in AA then I guess that would put it in a similar category as ROM and Allods, but we're still talking about a small cross section of games. What I find is the biggest issue is the dilution of the issue of P2W to things like XP Pots or blue gear. Honestly, I would say most people have never actually seen or played a P2W game. If the idea of spending thousands in a game blows your mind then you haven't seen a real P2W game, where that's talked about like it's just common practice.
Well probably u know the 3 mmo's that ill suggest u but are the only ones that i really played in the passed years so just a suggestion.
1) Tera online: Nice themepark mmo that literally only kept me playing it for the action combat plus i was lucky to being in a nice guild.
2)Aion: is a bit too old this isnt exactly suggestion cause i have to play it before it gone free to play so lot of things changed.
3)Archeage: this one considered sandbox and has loads things to do, the game has really one huge downside for me and guess isnt the p2w.If u like the tab target combat,farming,fishing etc u can give it a try, but i recommend u the sub,the game isnt really free to play in my eyes,especially if u like craft.
Isnt a great suggestion but are the only games i managed to stay longer than 2 months.
Archeage? I'm pretty sure the OP asked for non-P2W... To have someone put Archeage in that context... /boggle.
Is there a game where you pay money and get a signed "you've won certificate" from the developers?
No?
Because otherwise the term is completely meaningless as we can't even agree on what it is to "win a mmo".
So if there is no agreement of "winning" in a MMO - there sure can't be an agreement of "paying to win".
So lets just call it for what it really IS - pay for advantage - and guess what our entire world is based on the concept of "paying for advantage" - so ALL games are subject to this - because you can simply buy an account from a 3rd party that is fully geared out.
If we really wanted to prevent this - we would need a centralized system that would tie each online account to an actual person via SSN or some other unique identifier (like maybe a DNA reader - yeah futuretech) and then it would be impossible to sell accounts.
Until that happens - all games are pay for advantage - and if you think that "P2W = pay for advantage" - then all games are P2W - thus in turn - making the term completely meaningless.
So why even bring it up - in the end - you play a game, are you having fun? If yes - well great, if no - go try another one.
And if you are having fun, maybe you even spend some money on it - I know crazy right - support games you like - or you might end up like that guy who was making threads like "it's been 5 years since I've spent any money on a game" ... heh
Yeah.
Always fun to watch people try to sound intelligent but achieving the opposite.
In fairness the latter half of your post I agree with, if you are having fun that is what's important.
That said the rest is hogwash and you miss the important part. P2W (which is and always has been for "advantage over others") can adversely affect other players, either by inherent disadvantage (ie PvP) or by falling behind (which can be more or less of a disadvantage depending on the game).
My main problem with "P2W" is when it's a scam tool designed to suck customers dry by implementing mechanics that essentially force you to fork over money if you wish to keep up (Black Desert Online anyone?)
Those greedy customer antagonistic games should be boycotted until such time as they treat customers fairly and not like sheep waiting for the slaughter.
Well thanks for reading one paragraph anyway. I know it's a long post.
I literally discussed the crafting bit under my second paragraph and I explicitly said that I don't think that ANYONE would accept selling a BiS weapon through the store and justifying it by saying you can craft it in the game, but with ridiculously low proc rates. The closest think I've seen to this is in Rift and they essentially sell blue gear that can be obtained easily through regular play. I can't say I've EVER seen a game sell BiS gear through the cash shop, but I'm willing to listen to some examples that you might have from your experience.
What I was referring to with XP Pots was in reference to your trying to pass off P2W as P2A (Pay to Advance). That's what people MOST commonly associate P2A with. P2A is just that, paying to progress in a game that's all about progression. XP Pots are the most common way that is facilitated. So I suppose that you could draw some correlation between progression and selling gear, but I would argue that the more common use of the term is in reference to level progression over gear progression.
Either way, I'm not making a strawman argument at all, I'm telling you flat out that you're wrong and that the vast, vast, VAST majority of games do NOT implement P2W mechanics like you're describing (selling BiS gear through a shop).
I'd be shocked if you could find 10 games that sold the best gear in the game through a shop. Fuck, I'd be surprised if you could find a handful.
But why do you keep going on about selling BIS through a shop? I only used that as an example of what most games DON'T DO because it's so easy to identify as an obvious advantage so they do it through other sneakier means such as crafting failure and cash shop items to prevent it to some extent as in Archeage.
So yeah, most games do not sell BIS in their cash shops straight up. So what the fuck are you saying otherwise that I'm wrong about?
What I'm saying is that even crafting failure isn't something that's rampant. It's something that's much more common with asian grinders than anything. RoM is an example. Allods is another example. Honestly, I didn't even know this existed in AA. The reason I would have said AA was a grey area game is only because of the real money conversion through APEX. I really haven't kept that current with it since launch though.
What I'm saying you're wrong about is your claim that this is somehow pandemic. Even the crafting failure mechanic isn't something that's present in all that many games. THAT, I could probably pick out 10 if I really tried. With that said, the level of advantage that would provide varies wildly based on the game, too.
What I WOULD agree with you about is that there are games which are more clever about hiding these types of mechanics until late-game, which sucks. However, it's not like this is anything that can't be uncovered with a simple google search.
My only real issue is the constant propagation of false information, like selling BiS gear. That being said, I think that you make a good argument, but I would only question how widespread that is. I mean if it exists in AA then I guess that would put it in a similar category as ROM and Allods, but we're still talking about a small cross section of games. What I find is the biggest issue is the dilution of the issue of P2W to things like XP Pots or blue gear. Honestly, I would say most people have never actually seen or played a P2W game. If the idea of spending thousands in a game blows your mind then you haven't seen a real P2W game, where that's talked about like it's just common practice.
Well I never said pandemic either
What I said is that many games, and more each day, have pay for advantage. And yes, of course, the Asian grinders are and have always been at the forefront of this.
But I'm also willing to cut people some slack when they rant about P2W. Just because a particular kind of advantage doesn't bother me (as I tend to only concern myself only with clear cut PVP advantages such as BIS gear or things that help you be stealthy for example) it doesn't mean that someone else is wrong for focusing on a type of advantage that I could care less about.
Some people are competitive PVErs and they care about those things and some even care a lot about cosmetics. Neither of those things concern me but I know that others do care.
Clear cut P2W (at least in the West --I don't play games that are only available in the East so I don't know if it's still something there) has gone the way of the dodo in any game made by a half way intelligent developer since there is a lot of negativity associated with it in gaming communities. What has become much more common are the schemes where some items are incredibly hard to obtain but still technically possible to do so in the game and they then sell you better chances of getting them.
And as I said, this is actually a way of making more money than outright selling you the item. It's a win/win for the company since they avoid the stigma of being labeled as undisputed P2W and make more money out of it.
Even ESO is currently taking little steps down this road with some items that will only be available in their new cash shop RNG loot boxes. They still don't have anything that would give a PVPer an advantage but they have for example (as we just started to see now that they added them to the test server yesterday,) accelerated XP scrolls that are much better than either the ones you can craft in the game or the ones you can outright buy for a set price in the cash shop. They also have exclusive, never before seen, mounts, costumes, pets, etc. in those boxes.
Now I'm not an XP scroll user and have never been (as a matter of fact I think of them as silly ways to breeze past a part of the game that is presumably one of the reasons I'm there) but those who are have begun protesting loudly that it's cheap of them to make these better scrolls loot box exclusives. It doesn't bother me personally but I understand why it bothers those who want to level ultra fast and know they'll have to pay a lot more for just a chance to get those with no guarantee. And I can also sympathize with cosmetic collectors (something I also don't care about) who dislike this new system where they just can't outright buy the item they want.
It's not a simple black or white issue any longer whether or not people complaining about it use 100% correct terminology. I think a lot of players are becoming increasingly grumpy about some of the more predatory ways they're being asked to spend more money in games. Some of them just use "P2W" to mean "shit that makes me feel like a rube at a carnival." IDK... maybe we need a new word for that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem remains - it's not semantics, it's 2 entirely different concepts that should never be equated
Pay to win
And
Pay for advantage
Not even remotely the same.
But since p2w proponents use the the term however they want to suit their argument, from any game that has a cash shop being p2w, to heck anything you can imagine - p2w is clearly the KING shit.
No one cares about your opinion on this as all you are doing is trying to push the really meaningless opinion that the name should be changed. Everyone but you knows exactly what "P2W" means and also understands that it applies differently to different games. We all know it's about advantage. Stop derailing this thread with your meaningless argument. It's a waste of time and only shows you care more about being agreed with than the real topic at hand.
One aspect though in my opinion is clearly P2W and not just advantage. When you create a horrible random number generator with dreadful chances of success and then you sell an item in the cash shop that improves your chances at getting the RNG to work in your favour....big no no.
Buying things crafted by others is not P2W though no matter how you get the money to buy it but that is wholly my opinion.
Have to agree with Iselin, as much as some are trying to shrug off the P2A argument, i have not seen a successful rebuttal here, in short, it is what it is, players either have to accept it, or move on to other games where it does not happen, and not many of those around these days. That there are a number of games out there, where how much advantage you can gain is entirely dependent on how much real money you spend, such as Archeage and BDO, in BDO in particular, while it is technically possible to buy BiS gear, the more likely outcome is that players spend real money on improving their gear at a faster rate than would otherwise be possible, these are things that happen and no amount of sophistry can get around those facts.
What I said is that many games, and more each day, have pay for advantage. And yes, of course, the Asian grinders are and have always been at the forefront of this.
But I'm also willing to cut people some slack when they rant about P2W. Just because a particular kind of advantage doesn't bother me (as I tend to only concern myself only with clear cut PVP advantages such as BIS gear or things that help you be stealthy for example) it doesn't mean that someone else is wrong for focusing on a type of advantage that I could care less about.
Some people are competitive PVErs and they care about those things and some even care a lot about cosmetics. Neither of those things concern me but I know that others do care.
Clear cut P2W (at least in the West --I don't play games that are only available in the East so I don't know if it's still something there) has gone the way of the dodo in any game made by a half way intelligent developer since there is a lot of negativity associated with it in gaming communities. What has become much more common are the schemes where some items are incredibly hard to obtain but still technically possible to do so in the game and they then sell you better chances of getting them.
And as I said, this is actually a way of making more money than outright selling you the item. It's a win/win for the company since they avoid the stigma of being labeled as undisputed P2W and make more money out of it.
Even ESO is currently taking little steps down this road with some items that will only be available in their new cash shop RNG loot boxes. They still don't have anything that would give a PVPer an advantage but they have for example (as we just started to see now that they added them to the test server yesterday,) accelerated XP scrolls that are much better than either the ones you can craft in the game or the ones you can outright buy for a set price in the cash shop. They also have exclusive, never before seen, mounts, costumes, pets, etc. in those boxes.
Now I'm not an XP scroll user and have never been (as a matter of fact I think of them as silly ways to breeze past a part of the game that is presumably one of the reasons I'm there) but those who are have begun protesting loudly that it's cheap of them to make these better scrolls loot box exclusives. It doesn't bother me personally but I understand why it bothers those who want to level ultra fast and know they'll have to pay a lot more for just a chance to get those with no guarantee. And I can also sympathize with cosmetic collectors (something I also don't care about) who dislike this new system where they just can't outright buy the item they want.
It's not a simple black or white issue any longer whether or not people complaining about it use 100% correct terminology. I think a lot of players are becoming increasingly grumpy about some of the more predatory ways they're being asked to spend more money in games. Some of them just use "P2W" to mean "shit that makes me feel like a rube at a carnival." IDK... maybe we need a new word for that.
Yeah, I saw the uproar about ESO, but haven't played much since it went F2P at all and at last check I didn't see any news on what's in the chests.
If what you're saying is true then it's unfortunate, but it's certainly not P2W. I'm not trying to belittle the chosen gameplay of some of these people (I play primarily PVE myself), but I think it really does center around competitive PVP and actually being able to win with cash shop purchases. Someone will probably correct me, but there was a game, and I want to say Scion of Fate, where there was a HP potion in the store which refilled your full HP bar instantly without a cooldown, versus the ingame HP potion which refilled 25% of your HP bar over 30 seconds or something. That's crazy.
As far as cosmetics go, if they offer exclusive items through the cash shop, even weapon skins, etc. then that's just how it is. I actually support exclusivity of cosmetic items through the cash shop. I think some people need to think of the person buying that. What is the value they're getting out of it. If it's something they could just find in the game? Exclusivity is one thing that sells and I would favor it over something that gives a permanent buff to your weapon any day. If someone is a collector, spend some money! Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain as much as people do these days about free games. They certainly didn't grow up in the 90s when games like Magic were going crazy. Honestly, there aren't a whole lot of games these days where you have to spend money to be competitive. Compared to any TCG, it's cheap as shit.
As far as use of the term goes, I think it is very important. By making the term ambiguous, it only creates this cloud of uncertainty where developers don't need to remain accountable for their actions. So I think it's a matter of drawing a line saying what's acceptable and what isn't. The difficulty comes into play when that line isn't well defined, or is unrealistic. At that point developers simply say "Ok, well we're doing this anyway since you can't make up your mind." I can tell you definitively that this conversation takes place at development conferences, or it did years ago, and I'm sure it still takes place today, and I'm sure there are people more up-to-speed than me on here who would confirm that.
Is there a game where you pay money and get a signed "you've won certificate" from the developers?
No?
Because otherwise the term is completely meaningless as we can't even agree on what it is to "win a mmo".
So if there is no agreement of "winning" in a MMO - there sure can't be an agreement of "paying to win".
So lets just call it for what it really IS - pay for advantage - and guess what our entire world is based on the concept of "paying for advantage" - so ALL games are subject to this - because you can simply buy an account from a 3rd party that is fully geared out.
If we really wanted to prevent this - we would need a centralized system that would tie each online account to an actual person via SSN or some other unique identifier (like maybe a DNA reader - yeah futuretech) and then it would be impossible to sell accounts.
Until that happens - all games are pay for advantage - and if you think that "P2W = pay for advantage" - then all games are P2W - thus in turn - making the term completely meaningless.
So why even bring it up - in the end - you play a game, are you having fun? If yes - well great, if no - go try another one.
And if you are having fun, maybe you even spend some money on it - I know crazy right - support games you like - or you might end up like that guy who was making threads like "it's been 5 years since I've spent any money on a game" ... heh
Yeah.
Start with this; the battle not the war. Think about that.
The term is absolutely not completely meaningless, as I state above think about the one on one encounters or PvP match ups if one person in the fight has paid for any advantage the field is no longer even. Even in group PvP the battle can be swayed by just one or two people that have bought an advantage.
It might help if you think along these lines. Under any circumstance, your broad dismissal of the term is not accurate at all.
In MMO open world PvP the field is never even due to gear, level, numbers etc... difference
This is why MOBA and arena games are popular because they do have balanced PvP, MMOS don't.
Pay for advantage is real
Does advantage guarantee a win? No.
Does winning one battle mean you win the war? No.
And thats why P2W is such a crap term, because players are equating "advantage" to winning, and that's simply false, especially in MMOs where there is no clear "win" scenario.
Pay to win is horseshit.
"P2W" basically means "Pay for advantage", dude. It's just an easy acronym and nobody would know what you were talking about if you said "PFA".
And it's not horseshit for the OP. He wants to find a game without it, because like me, he doesn't find it fun to play a game where people can pay money to beat you or be better at the game than you.
So how about helping the guy out and recommending some non-PFA games? And yeah, everyone knows you can buy accounts from 3rd party sites (and later get your account banned for it and your credit card info stolen from some guy in China). We're talking about in-game sanctioned significant-power-buying. Which games don't allow it?
Is there a game where you pay money and get a signed "you've won certificate" from the developers?
No?
Because otherwise the term is completely meaningless as we can't even agree on what it is to "win a mmo".
So if there is no agreement of "winning" in a MMO - there sure can't be an agreement of "paying to win".
So lets just call it for what it really IS - pay for advantage - and guess what our entire world is based on the concept of "paying for advantage" - so ALL games are subject to this - because you can simply buy an account from a 3rd party that is fully geared out.
If we really wanted to prevent this - we would need a centralized system that would tie each online account to an actual person via SSN or some other unique identifier (like maybe a DNA reader - yeah futuretech) and then it would be impossible to sell accounts.
Until that happens - all games are pay for advantage - and if you think that "P2W = pay for advantage" - then all games are P2W - thus in turn - making the term completely meaningless.
So why even bring it up - in the end - you play a game, are you having fun? If yes - well great, if no - go try another one.
And if you are having fun, maybe you even spend some money on it - I know crazy right - support games you like - or you might end up like that guy who was making threads like "it's been 5 years since I've spent any money on a game" ... heh
Yeah.
Start with this; the battle not the war. Think about that.
The term is absolutely not completely meaningless, as I state above think about the one on one encounters or PvP match ups if one person in the fight has paid for any advantage the field is no longer even. Even in group PvP the battle can be swayed by just one or two people that have bought an advantage.
It might help if you think along these lines. Under any circumstance, your broad dismissal of the term is not accurate at all.
In MMO open world PvP the field is never even due to gear, level, numbers etc... difference
This is why MOBA and arena games are popular because they do have balanced PvP, MMOS don't.
Pay for advantage is real
Does advantage guarantee a win? No.
Does winning one battle mean you win the war? No.
And thats why P2W is such a crap term, because players are equating "advantage" to winning, and that's simply false, especially in MMOs where there is no clear "win" scenario.
Pay to win is horseshit.
"P2W" basically means "Pay for advantage", dude. It's just an easy acronym and nobody would know what you were talking about if you said "PFA".
And it's not horseshit for the OP. He wants to find a game without it, because like me, he doesn't find it fun to play a game where people can pay money to beat you or be better at the game than you.
So how about helping the guy out and recommending some non-PFA games? And yeah, everyone knows you can buy accounts from 3rd party sites (and later get your account banned for it and your credit card info stolen from some guy in China). We're talking about in-game sanctioned significant-power-buying. Which games don't allow it?
Define advantage...... To re-sample Kenny Rogers, "Every game's a winner and every game's a loser!"
Feel free to make a suggestion and I will be more than happy to instruct you how you can pay to win at it, if we're working in a sandbox.
The post above mine ^^^^^^that one^^^^^^ is why people can't have intelligent discourse on the subject of Paying to Win.
moving the goalposts so far that one can classify any game P2W. . .to stifle dissent over true P2W games when one comes along now and again. . .such as Archeage or Black Desert.
There is no moving goal posts.
Say what the actual reality is - use the right term - pay for advantage.
You can't have an intelligent discussion on a completely flawed bullshit concept like - astrology, flat earth theory, and pay to win MMO concept.
Can we compile a list of players who won Archeage, Black Desert? No?
Can we on the other hand make a list of players who paid for an advantage? Yes.
Clearly one concept holds water, and one doesn't.
Arguing that because win does not mean advantage making the concept of Pay to Win a "bullshit" argument, is an argument based purely on semantics.
I don't think any reasonable person who plays MMORPGs honestly thinks one ever beats(or "wins") the game simply because how those games are designed. furthermore saying that Win is the same as Beat but not the same as Advantage seems to be cherry picking. . .People win in pay to win games all the time, they win in instanced and open world PVP as well as PVE.
And not that it matters, but one can have intelligent discourse over subjects like the Flat Earth Theory or Astrology because subject matter does not equate the way in which it is discussed.
Comments
But nice attempt at a strawman anyway lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Like it or lump it, it is there and your disregarding of the term won't make it go away, all it will do is invalidate your opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
And you don't have to remind me of the sales pitch "skip the tedium..." I've heard it many times before. You never hear the other part though "... that we deliberately created so we could charge you to skip it"
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Well thanks for reading one paragraph anyway. I know it's a long post.
I literally discussed the crafting bit under my second paragraph and I explicitly said that I don't think that ANYONE would accept selling a BiS weapon through the store and justifying it by saying you can craft it in the game, but with ridiculously low proc rates. The closest think I've seen to this is in Rift and they essentially sell blue gear that can be obtained easily through regular play. I can't say I've EVER seen a game sell BiS gear through the cash shop, but I'm willing to listen to some examples that you might have from your experience.
What I was referring to with XP Pots was in reference to your trying to pass off P2W as P2A (Pay to Advance). That's what people MOST commonly associate P2A with. P2A is just that, paying to progress in a game that's all about progression. XP Pots are the most common way that is facilitated. So I suppose that you could draw some correlation between progression and selling gear, but I would argue that the more common use of the term is in reference to level progression over gear progression.
Either way, I'm not making a strawman argument at all, I'm telling you flat out that you're wrong and that the vast, vast, VAST majority of games do NOT implement P2W mechanics like you're describing (selling BiS gear through a shop).
I'd be shocked if you could find 10 games that sold the best gear in the game through a shop. Fuck, I'd be surprised if you could find a handful.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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''The way it's used by a lot of people, yes it is. But that's just nit-picking semantics. ''
These games that called p2w like archeage they arent really p2w for the 90% and more of the ppl that will play it.
If we see the games that have subs and arent p2w, how many ppl (lets say win the game) have the end gear fully enchantment etc.
If am not wrong is a very small percentage of the player base.
So yeah for most ppl these games arent p2w, now they have a p2w element depending the shop?
I ll say they have but it wont affect the majority.
So yeah, most games do not sell BIS in their cash shops straight up. So what the fuck are you saying otherwise that I'm wrong about?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'd say that if you're close to winning a season, chances are you're investing significant amounts of time into a game and there's likely nothing you could but in any shop which would provide you an advantage. Maybe someone ranked in the tens of thousands could bump up a few spots. Even that is questionable, though. Honestly, there are VERY few examples of games which actually sell gear that provides THAT significant an advantage. They're so sparse, I can't even tell you one off the top of my head. The only one I've witnessed myself would be Runes of Magic, years ago. I think it's extremely overstated, I really do. AA and BDO are definitely grey area games, though. I never played either, though, so I can't say. However, I'd be willing to bet that there is not someone with mediocre skills winning the seasons in either game just by purchasing stuff.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Your still arguing the term rather than what people mean. It a good way for you to pad your post count though.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
What I'm saying is that even crafting failure isn't something that's rampant. It's something that's much more common with asian grinders than anything. RoM is an example. Allods is another example. Honestly, I didn't even know this existed in AA. The reason I would have said AA was a grey area game is only because of the real money conversion through APEX. I really haven't kept that current with it since launch though.
What I'm saying you're wrong about is your claim that this is somehow pandemic. Even the crafting failure mechanic isn't something that's present in all that many games. THAT, I could probably pick out 10 if I really tried. With that said, the level of advantage that would provide varies wildly based on the game, too.
What I WOULD agree with you about is that there are games which are more clever about hiding these types of mechanics until late-game, which sucks. However, it's not like this is anything that can't be uncovered with a simple google search.
My only real issue is the constant propagation of false information, like selling BiS gear. That being said, I think that you make a good argument, but I would only question how widespread that is. I mean if it exists in AA then I guess that would put it in a similar category as ROM and Allods, but we're still talking about a small cross section of games. What I find is the biggest issue is the dilution of the issue of P2W to things like XP Pots or blue gear. Honestly, I would say most people have never actually seen or played a P2W game. If the idea of spending thousands in a game blows your mind then you haven't seen a real P2W game, where that's talked about like it's just common practice.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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In fairness the latter half of your post I agree with, if you are having fun that is what's important.
That said the rest is hogwash and you miss the important part. P2W (which is and always has been for "advantage over others") can adversely affect other players, either by inherent disadvantage (ie PvP) or by falling behind (which can be more or less of a disadvantage depending on the game).
My main problem with "P2W" is when it's a scam tool designed to suck customers dry by implementing mechanics that essentially force you to fork over money if you wish to keep up (Black Desert Online anyone?)
Those greedy customer antagonistic games should be boycotted until such time as they treat customers fairly and not like sheep waiting for the slaughter.
What I said is that many games, and more each day, have pay for advantage. And yes, of course, the Asian grinders are and have always been at the forefront of this.
But I'm also willing to cut people some slack when they rant about P2W. Just because a particular kind of advantage doesn't bother me (as I tend to only concern myself only with clear cut PVP advantages such as BIS gear or things that help you be stealthy for example) it doesn't mean that someone else is wrong for focusing on a type of advantage that I could care less about.
Some people are competitive PVErs and they care about those things and some even care a lot about cosmetics. Neither of those things concern me but I know that others do care.
Clear cut P2W (at least in the West --I don't play games that are only available in the East so I don't know if it's still something there) has gone the way of the dodo in any game made by a half way intelligent developer since there is a lot of negativity associated with it in gaming communities. What has become much more common are the schemes where some items are incredibly hard to obtain but still technically possible to do so in the game and they then sell you better chances of getting them.
And as I said, this is actually a way of making more money than outright selling you the item. It's a win/win for the company since they avoid the stigma of being labeled as undisputed P2W and make more money out of it.
Even ESO is currently taking little steps down this road with some items that will only be available in their new cash shop RNG loot boxes. They still don't have anything that would give a PVPer an advantage but they have for example (as we just started to see now that they added them to the test server yesterday,) accelerated XP scrolls that are much better than either the ones you can craft in the game or the ones you can outright buy for a set price in the cash shop. They also have exclusive, never before seen, mounts, costumes, pets, etc. in those boxes.
Now I'm not an XP scroll user and have never been (as a matter of fact I think of them as silly ways to breeze past a part of the game that is presumably one of the reasons I'm there) but those who are have begun protesting loudly that it's cheap of them to make these better scrolls loot box exclusives. It doesn't bother me personally but I understand why it bothers those who want to level ultra fast and know they'll have to pay a lot more for just a chance to get those with no guarantee. And I can also sympathize with cosmetic collectors (something I also don't care about) who dislike this new system where they just can't outright buy the item they want.
It's not a simple black or white issue any longer whether or not people complaining about it use 100% correct terminology. I think a lot of players are becoming increasingly grumpy about some of the more predatory ways they're being asked to spend more money in games. Some of them just use "P2W" to mean "shit that makes me feel like a rube at a carnival." IDK... maybe we need a new word for that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Buying things crafted by others is not P2W though no matter how you get the money to buy it but that is wholly my opinion.
That there are a number of games out there, where how much advantage you can gain is entirely dependent on how much real money you spend, such as Archeage and BDO, in BDO in particular, while it is technically possible to buy BiS gear, the more likely outcome is that players spend real money on improving their gear at a faster rate than would otherwise be possible, these are things that happen and no amount of sophistry can get around those facts.
Yeah, I saw the uproar about ESO, but haven't played much since it went F2P at all and at last check I didn't see any news on what's in the chests.
If what you're saying is true then it's unfortunate, but it's certainly not P2W. I'm not trying to belittle the chosen gameplay of some of these people (I play primarily PVE myself), but I think it really does center around competitive PVP and actually being able to win with cash shop purchases. Someone will probably correct me, but there was a game, and I want to say Scion of Fate, where there was a HP potion in the store which refilled your full HP bar instantly without a cooldown, versus the ingame HP potion which refilled 25% of your HP bar over 30 seconds or something. That's crazy.
As far as cosmetics go, if they offer exclusive items through the cash shop, even weapon skins, etc. then that's just how it is. I actually support exclusivity of cosmetic items through the cash shop. I think some people need to think of the person buying that. What is the value they're getting out of it. If it's something they could just find in the game? Exclusivity is one thing that sells and I would favor it over something that gives a permanent buff to your weapon any day. If someone is a collector, spend some money! Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain as much as people do these days about free games. They certainly didn't grow up in the 90s when games like Magic were going crazy. Honestly, there aren't a whole lot of games these days where you have to spend money to be competitive. Compared to any TCG, it's cheap as shit.
As far as use of the term goes, I think it is very important. By making the term ambiguous, it only creates this cloud of uncertainty where developers don't need to remain accountable for their actions. So I think it's a matter of drawing a line saying what's acceptable and what isn't. The difficulty comes into play when that line isn't well defined, or is unrealistic. At that point developers simply say "Ok, well we're doing this anyway since you can't make up your mind." I can tell you definitively that this conversation takes place at development conferences, or it did years ago, and I'm sure it still takes place today, and I'm sure there are people more up-to-speed than me on here who would confirm that.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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And it's not horseshit for the OP. He wants to find a game without it, because like me, he doesn't find it fun to play a game where people can pay money to beat you or be better at the game than you.
So how about helping the guy out and recommending some non-PFA games? And yeah, everyone knows you can buy accounts from 3rd party sites (and later get your account banned for it and your credit card info stolen from some guy in China). We're talking about in-game sanctioned significant-power-buying. Which games don't allow it?
Define advantage...... To re-sample Kenny Rogers, "Every game's a winner and every game's a loser!"
Feel free to make a suggestion and I will be more than happy to instruct you how you can pay to win at it, if we're working in a sandbox.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I don't think any reasonable person who plays MMORPGs honestly thinks one ever beats(or "wins") the game simply because how those games are designed. furthermore saying that Win is the same as Beat but not the same as Advantage seems to be cherry picking. . .People win in pay to win games all the time, they win in instanced and open world PVP as well as PVE.
And not that it matters, but one can have intelligent discourse over subjects like the Flat Earth Theory or Astrology because subject matter does not equate the way in which it is discussed.