MadFrenchie said: It's not a double standard because "time spent" is exactly the goal of entertainment: to create things people can spend time enjoying.
People enjoy spending money on their hobbies.
Yeah, I know it is shocking...
So please stop trying to pretend is "worthy" to people or not. That is not up to you but up to each own - and people clearly vote with their wallets.
MadFrenchie said: It's not a double standard because "time spent" is exactly the goal of entertainment: to create things people can spend time enjoying.
People enjoy spending money on their hobbies.
Yeah, I know it is shocking...
So please stop trying to pretend is "worthy" to people or not. That is not up to you but up to each own - and people clearly vote with their wallets.
Unfortunately, that doesn't speak to what makes time and money equal.
You can't make more time, everyone gets the same amount in spite of their socioeconomic standing, personal lives, or other obligations. There isn't anything anyone can do to create more time for themselves. It is given and spent at the same rate for everyone. This makes it distinctly different from accumulated wealth. Socioeconomic status, and I'm talking your status before you were even old enough to make your first dollar, has been shown to be one of the best indicators of what an individual's socioeconomic status will be in adulthood.
That's the difference. No one is born with 25 hours available a day. Folks are born with silver spoons, lead spoons, and everything in between. The two don't equate. I could show understanding if it weren't a readily accepted theory that "social mobility" in this country is, by and large, a myth.
In a real world hobby such as say, any sport, the more time you invest the better you get at it. However this dynamic translates perfectly into player skill and knowledge of the game. There is no reason to artificially replicate it because it already exists.
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
In real world hobbies there is also typically a correlation to monetary investment in your hobby materials and performance. Real world hobbies almost all have a "P2W" factor.
You mean like buying a gaming keyboard and mouse? You could even hire a personal trainer if you really wanted to go that far. Again. No need to replicate it artificially through leveling or pay to win. It already exists.
No I was referring to other real world hobbies - archery, off-roading/4x4/mudding/4-wheeling, amateur racing, most sports, shooting, knitting, painting, drawing, digital art, photography, and it could go on and on and on. Buy better equipment and perform better or get better results.
Nearly all hobbies have some monetary aspect where paying more is a factor in better results or a smoother experience.
That can apply to computers where people spend a lot of money for a high performance rig and peripherals. It can also apply to specific games. Nothing is replicated. It's a natural way for people to play their hobbies.
When I shot archery people were put into different categories based on how much they spent on their bows. If you shot a recurve you were in a different category than someone with a compound. Someone with a sighted compound was in a different category than someone with an unsighted compound. I believe there were also limits on the length of your stabilizer for different categories.
Point being, usually people with massive non-skill related advantages over the rest of the competition will be separated from them. Because otherwise it isn't fun. And the point of a game is fun.
That is my argument against pay to win AND play to win or "T2W" as the topic refers to it. Neither are good.
It shows a balanced approach when a competition categorizes different advantages based on equipment types. But within each of those categories there are various brands and quality grades for those pieces of equipment. Teams that can afford better gear have an edge, but aren't guaranteed a win which I think is important. That's what I'm really speaking to.
Not everything has to be a competition. Someone can have a music hobby where they collect nice equipment for vinyl or what not. People enjoy spending money on their hobbies to improve the experience.
It's not bad that people have to spend time or money to improve the quality of their hobby experience. It's important that it be balanced.
When it comes to a point that someone who wants to play a competitive MMO where building your player skill and knowledge of the game is the primary challenge, can only find MMOs with massive level and gear based disparity that you either have to grind or pay your way past... that's where it becomes a problem.
MadFrenchie said: Unfortunately, that doesn't speak to what makes time and money equal.
You can't make more time, everyone gets the same amount in spite of their socioeconomic standing, personal lives, or other obligations. There isn't anything anyone can do to create more time for themselves. It is given and spent at the same rate for everyone. This makes it distinctly different from accumulated wealth. Socioeconomic status, and I'm talking your status before you were even old enough to make your first dollar, has been shown to be one of the best indicators of what an individual's socioeconomic status will be in adulthood.
That's the difference. No one is born with 25 hours available a day. Folks are born with silver spoons, lead spoons, and everything in between. The two don't equate. I could show understanding if it weren't a readily accepted theory that "social mobility" in this country is, by and large, a myth.
So when you get smoked in a P2W game by a swiper, you come here to bitch amirite?
Let's name some real examples not imagined fantasies that support ridiculous agendas. Have you ever been owned by a "swiper"? Where are all these stories of getting owned by "swipers". If people were getting "owned" by "swipers" all the time, or even at all, then wouldn't we hear about it?
I think you chose the wrong guy and example to make. He plays EVE. It's a game where you can blatantly buy a resource advantage, skills, or even full on characters and yet you don't hear stories of "swipers" owning people. You certainly don't hear him bitching about it (probably because your imagined scenario never really happens). In fact it seems the opposite happens as often as not. EVE is the perfect example of how a game has "P2W" but no one spending extra money is winning. Sort of blows a hole in the whole "P2W" argument.
There is only one winner when it comes to a competitive online game that sells advantages. It's not the players.
Competition has a way of making some people lose all common sense.
Hell watch a little PvP in a public auction. Fucking hilarious
Acting as if playing a game and simply buying features within a game are equal is ignoring the fact that games are made as ways to spend time being entertained.
P2W, in this context, is using money to avoid spending time playing parts of the game. Games are made, quite literally, as an entertaining way to pass time.
OH MAN... I almost pooped on myself laughing at this kid's vision of the world.
Slam poetry open mic night at your local hispter cafe might be entertainment made for the purpose of "entertaining".... but thats about it. Sorry to bust your bubble kid, but entertainment is created to SUCK YOUR MONEY! Thats why microtransaction games are so popular right now. They make more money on less risk. Not saying I like this, but just saying that you desperately need to grow up.
So when you get smoked in a P2W game by a swiper, you come here to bitch amirite?
Let's name some real examples not imagined fantasies that support ridiculous agendas. Have you ever been owned by a "swiper"? Where are all these stories of getting owned by "swipers". If people were getting "owned" by "swipers" all the time, or even at all, then wouldn't we hear about it?
I think you chose the wrong guy and example to make. He plays EVE. It's a game where you can blatantly buy a resource advantage, skills, or even full on characters and yet you don't hear stories of "swipers" owning people. You certainly don't hear him bitching about it (probably because your imagined scenario never really happens). In fact it seems the opposite happens as often as not. EVE is the perfect example of how a game has "P2W" but no one spending extra money is winning. Sort of blows a hole in the whole "P2W" argument.
Reading skills need microtransactions as well apparently. The "life isnt fair comment" was aimed at the OP who is bitching about not having enough time to stay competitive. My reply was blatantly aimed at those who say things like "life aint fair bitch, if you dont have time then you shouldnt be good" but are then the same people who create posts complaining about p2w. Guess what kiddos, life aint fair works in more than one way.
As far as EVE goes, EVE is by no means P2W and you shouldnt bring up games you know nothing about in your rants.
As far as other games that are P2W and where you do get smoked by Swipers... Try any of the asian RNG grind MMO's like Archeage or Age of Wushu. I would know, since my swiping skills are GM'ed and I routinely smoke people with my swiped gear and then laugh at their QQ hate-mail. I unfortunately am not blessed with an overabundance of free time to sit and farm and make packs and do endless trade runs all day. I instead enjoy smoking nublets for about 90 mins a day after my family goes to sleep. I almost exclusively play P2W games because i can drop 1500$ on one and get so much more enjoyment out of my little playing time.
Acting as if playing a game and simply buying features within a game are equal is ignoring the fact that games are made as ways to spend time being entertained.
P2W, in this context, is using money to avoid spending time playing parts of the game. Games are made, quite literally, as an entertaining way to pass time.
OH MAN... I almost pooped on myself laughing at this kid's vision of the world.
Slam poetry open mic night at your local hispter cafe might be entertainment made for the purpose of "entertaining".... but thats about it. Sorry to bust your bubble kid, but entertainment is created to SUCK YOUR MONEY! Thats why microtransaction games are so popular right now. They make more money on less risk. Not saying I like this, but just saying that you desperately need to grow up.
What? That's not what I said at all. You seem to be implying that I assume developers are either working for charity or that gamers don't care about the quality of the entertainment, and they're going to hand money over regardless. Neither was part of my point.
MadFrenchie said: Unfortunately, that doesn't speak to what makes time and money equal.
You can't make more time, everyone gets the same amount in spite of their socioeconomic standing, personal lives, or other obligations. There isn't anything anyone can do to create more time for themselves. It is given and spent at the same rate for everyone. This makes it distinctly different from accumulated wealth. Socioeconomic status, and I'm talking your status before you were even old enough to make your first dollar, has been shown to be one of the best indicators of what an individual's socioeconomic status will be in adulthood.
That's the difference. No one is born with 25 hours available a day. Folks are born with silver spoons, lead spoons, and everything in between. The two don't equate. I could show understanding if it weren't a readily accepted theory that "social mobility" in this country is, by and large, a myth.
Time or money, both are personal choices how we spend them. No difference there.
If you'd like to willfully ignore my point, then I understand. Otherwise, this post brought nothing to the discussion save for the implication that you discount or disbelieve the effect a person's original socioeconomic status has on their future status.... Or that you believe time is accrued in the same, unequal manner as money.
The former goes against studies in the area and/or ignores how that system can affect a gamer's ability to spend, the latter ignores or distrusts the premise that time and money are accrued and spent in fundamentally different manners. Which, exactly, are you disagreeing with?
So when you get smoked in a P2W game by a swiper, you come here to bitch amirite?
Let's name some real examples not imagined fantasies that support ridiculous agendas. Have you ever been owned by a "swiper"? Where are all these stories of getting owned by "swipers". If people were getting "owned" by "swipers" all the time, or even at all, then wouldn't we hear about it?
I think you chose the wrong guy and example to make. He plays EVE. It's a game where you can blatantly buy a resource advantage, skills, or even full on characters and yet you don't hear stories of "swipers" owning people. You certainly don't hear him bitching about it (probably because your imagined scenario never really happens). In fact it seems the opposite happens as often as not. EVE is the perfect example of how a game has "P2W" but no one spending extra money is winning. Sort of blows a hole in the whole "P2W" argument.
I've only run into "true" P2W once where it impacted my gameplay and I did stop playing. Have even slammed that game a few times and I'll agree it didn't feel good.
But as mentioned EVE is my long-term game, and despite fact just about every sort of advantage is for sale every fight Ive ever lost is because I was outplayed, not outspent.
My coalition went into a more or less even 75 (them) to 72 (us) fight the other night...and we lost every ship to their one loss.
A huge tactical blunder by the FC was largely blamed, but other factors such as mixed doctrines and poor logistics were strong contributors.
But at no point did anyone suggest we were outspent in the cash shop, it just doesn't work that way.
BTW, I had the good fortune to miss that encounter, was way too "fair" to my liking anyways.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The P2W crowd show a high degree of competiveness and assumed privilege. There also appears to be great resentment towards people who chose to spend time on their hobbies and reap the rewards they deserve. Those such as yourself have made a choice to have a family, go to college, and achieve (I assume) a well paying job and all that comes with it. We are often reminded of all that you feel you are entitled to have because of those choices. Most people would make such choices and find a balance and enjoy it all. Those such as the OP feel that they are owed the ability to bypass what others achieve by hard work by using their wallets instead. My husband is a teacher. By the OP's reasoning should his wealthier students be entitled to buy the A grade that others have achieved through hard work and study.
chocolate-mouse said: By the OP's reasoning should his wealthier students be entitled to buy the A grade that others have achieved through hard work and study.
Actually, that is your reasoning.....and pretty bad reading comprehension too.
Wait, what does that have to do with anything? Oh, are you throwing away facts and reality and dropping down to your agenda? You said earlier that spending time to gain skill is important and now you're claiming that if you need to spend more time and money than you feel like doing, then it's a problem.
I said that spending time to develop player skill and money for things such as a better mouse or keyboard are things that are always going to be a factor, and that there is no need to replicate them through grinding or pay to win.
What competitive mmos are you referring where building player skill and knowledge is the primary challenge set for by the developers? Since it would be beyond ridiculous to paint specifics with such broad generalizations, let's talk in specifics not vagaries.
When it comes to a point that someone who wants to play a competitive MMO where building your player skill and knowledge of the game is the primary challenge, can only find MMOs with massive level and gear based disparity that you either have to grind or pay your way past... that's where it becomes a problem.
They don't exist. Which if you had actually read what I said, you would know that the main point of my post was basically taking the MMO industry to task BECAUSE they don't exist. The fact that you didn't actually read what I said renders the rest of your post useless, and difficult to respond to as it makes a ton of incorrect assumptions about what I am saying.
Comments
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Yeah, I know it is shocking...
So please stop trying to pretend is "worthy" to people or not. That is not up to you but up to each own - and people clearly vote with their wallets.
You can't make more time, everyone gets the same amount in spite of their socioeconomic standing, personal lives, or other obligations. There isn't anything anyone can do to create more time for themselves. It is given and spent at the same rate for everyone. This makes it distinctly different from accumulated wealth. Socioeconomic status, and I'm talking your status before you were even old enough to make your first dollar, has been shown to be one of the best indicators of what an individual's socioeconomic status will be in adulthood.
That's the difference. No one is born with 25 hours available a day. Folks are born with silver spoons, lead spoons, and everything in between. The two don't equate. I could show understanding if it weren't a readily accepted theory that "social mobility" in this country is, by and large, a myth.
Time or money, both are personal choices how we spend them. No difference there.
Competition has a way of making some people lose all common sense.
Hell watch a little PvP in a public auction. Fucking hilarious
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Slam poetry open mic night at your local hispter cafe might be entertainment made for the purpose of "entertaining".... but thats about it. Sorry to bust your bubble kid, but entertainment is created to SUCK YOUR MONEY! Thats why microtransaction games are so popular right now. They make more money on less risk. Not saying I like this, but just saying that you desperately need to grow up.
As far as EVE goes, EVE is by no means P2W and you shouldnt bring up games you know nothing about in your rants.
As far as other games that are P2W and where you do get smoked by Swipers... Try any of the asian RNG grind MMO's like Archeage or Age of Wushu. I would know, since my swiping skills are GM'ed and I routinely smoke people with my swiped gear and then laugh at their QQ hate-mail. I unfortunately am not blessed with an overabundance of free time to sit and farm and make packs and do endless trade runs all day. I instead enjoy smoking nublets for about 90 mins a day after my family goes to sleep. I almost exclusively play P2W games because i can drop 1500$ on one and get so much more enjoyment out of my little playing time.
If you'd like to willfully ignore my point, then I understand. Otherwise, this post brought nothing to the discussion save for the implication that you discount or disbelieve the effect a person's original socioeconomic status has on their future status.... Or that you believe time is accrued in the same, unequal manner as money.
The former goes against studies in the area and/or ignores how that system can affect a gamer's ability to spend, the latter ignores or distrusts the premise that time and money are accrued and spent in fundamentally different manners. Which, exactly, are you disagreeing with?
But as mentioned EVE is my long-term game, and despite fact just about every sort of advantage is for sale every fight Ive ever lost is because I was outplayed, not outspent.
My coalition went into a more or less even 75 (them) to 72 (us) fight the other night...and we lost every ship to their one loss.
A huge tactical blunder by the FC was largely blamed, but other factors such as mixed doctrines and poor logistics were strong contributors.
But at no point did anyone suggest we were outspent in the cash shop, it just doesn't work that way.
BTW, I had the good fortune to miss that encounter, was way too "fair" to my liking anyways.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The P2W crowd show a high degree of competiveness and assumed privilege. There also appears to be great resentment towards people who chose to spend time on their hobbies and reap the rewards they deserve. Those such as yourself have made a choice to have a family, go to college, and achieve (I assume) a well paying job and all that comes with it. We are often reminded of all that you feel you are entitled to have because of those choices. Most people would make such choices and find a balance and enjoy it all. Those such as the OP feel that they are owed the ability to bypass what others achieve by hard work by using their wallets instead. My husband is a teacher. By the OP's reasoning should his wealthier students be entitled to buy the A grade that others have achieved through hard work and study.
I said that spending time to develop player skill and money for things such as a better mouse or keyboard are things that are always going to be a factor, and that there is no need to replicate them through grinding or pay to win.
They don't exist. Which if you had actually read what I said, you would know that the main point of my post was basically taking the MMO industry to task BECAUSE they don't exist. The fact that you didn't actually read what I said renders the rest of your post useless, and difficult to respond to as it makes a ton of incorrect assumptions about what I am saying.