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EmpireMUD - Why Can't MMOs Do Stuff Like This?
Codician
Member UncommonPosts: 9
Link to EmpireMUD
EmpireMUD's a MUD (text-based predecessor to MMO) based around founding and conquering an empire. It doesn't have a huge amount of players (because it's a MUD) but the feature set is very solid and it's pretty fun to play.
Seriously, it's crazy how a single lone developer can make a huge empire building MUD in his spare time but MMO companies can't put together that isn't a pathetic rehash of decade old mechanics.
Is it poor project management, lack of originality or just budget constraints? Why can't MMOs do anything along these lines?
EmpireMUD's a MUD (text-based predecessor to MMO) based around founding and conquering an empire. It doesn't have a huge amount of players (because it's a MUD) but the feature set is very solid and it's pretty fun to play.
Seriously, it's crazy how a single lone developer can make a huge empire building MUD in his spare time but MMO companies can't put together that isn't a pathetic rehash of decade old mechanics.
Is it poor project management, lack of originality or just budget constraints? Why can't MMOs do anything along these lines?
Comments
Lol, it's text-based....... it's antiquated technology..... Essentially, someone could buy a full-featured MUD for a couple hundred bucks and have it up and running in a matter of days. It's not REALLY a huge accomplishment.
If you're looking for cookie-cutter MMOs that never push the envelope, then I'm sure developers can do that (and it's been done). Personally, I'd prefer game companies to take a risk to make something actually good, not just churn out the same old shit.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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but after that a MUD is a lot more simpler then a normal game with graphics, also you need a lot less tools to work on the same thing, the same mud game with real graphics would require a lot more then that lone programmer working on the game
I self identify as a monkey.
Pretty sad.
If your gonna tell me the reason is development cost, I would counter that by claiming its all in failed management and lack of vision.
What would a graphical MUD be like you might ask?
Well in my mind i picture something that never existed before, something like a "sandpark" where a theme and stories are written by both players and developers, where you can find linear progression if you want it, but can totally skip any story and still have a valuable experience. It would include things like faction reputation where you align with the world, where aligning with certain factions would equal pvp, where some would be pve, making the pve vs pvp issue null. It would also include some sort of worldbuilding/housing. It would also probably have much deeper crafting and economy systems in play. Most people would probably call it more of a simulation of sorts. It would have to be built around NPC interaction to let the NPC's work the world and let players just take part in it.
Maybe it was just how I used to imagine it, still its a nice vision of a online rpg world, agree?
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
I agree, sorry, over-simplification begets over-simplification. I agree, there is still a market out there, though. I frequent some auction sites for websites and I'll see MUDs pop up there occasionally. Not frequently, but they do still pop up there.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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It's almost like asking why model rockets have a lower cost than the space shuttle.
VG
I self identify as a monkey.
I think we have a few games about building empires, but they tend to be more the grind clash of clans thing. Though sim city might be a example of a building mmo done better.
While I agree with the overall point that the MMO industry is primarily cowards who never innovate or push the envelope, I disagree that showing a MUD is a good way to make that point. You might as well compare MMOs to tabletops.
MMO (not always, EVE is awesome, love Ultima Online.)..."Hey, how can we make a cookie cutter MMO with a limited budget and make a lot of money? Lets add a pay to win cash shop and our fans will buy it up like hot cakes and who defend her game because they'll be so blinded! HA HA HA! *pets cat evily with an evil smile*
Also
"How can we make a cheap budget MMO, that requires little programming and investment? But the hardcore PvPers are so starved for a game that they always complain about anyway so they are never happy to begin with"...lets make it...a deathmatch sandbox PVP game! Barely any work required! The players then lie to themselves and say there is content because they make it! THEY MAKE THE CONTENT FOR US! OH YEAH! And the PVE that is there is so lackluster, but gotta put that there otherwise PVErs complain"
The only sandbox MMO that is any good at all is EVE, and that is because the PVE is just as good (at least to me) as the PvP is and they obviously spent a lot more work and time to make an actual good MMO.
Not like darkfall/shadowbane and all that other trashy sandbox PvP deathmatch clone MMOs. They purposely are made like that because pvp deathmatch sandbox MMOs are so cheap because they don't need any actual content, because the players do it for them. Total rip off lol. At least EVE adds real quality content for PVP AND PVE.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
At least in Darkfall everything wasn't 100% predictable and I actually felt like I was making an impact on the game world. Also some of the PVE was way more entertaining than anything I've done in a Themepark. Certainly more entertaining than EVE's (Lock>Shoot>Lock>Shoot>Lock>Shoot) until all the rats are gone.
"Deathmatch clones" are a symptom of the problem, and the problem is a lack of innovation in MMOs. When anyone who was an actual budget refuses to touch an innovative idea with a 10 foot pole then tiny companies with shoestring budgets that have a passion for gaming are going to do their best to deliver what people want.
The fact these games even exist demonstrates that there is a serious empty market space for a AAA Sandbox title. Not a themepark with a hint of sandbox like ArcheAge or BDO but a full on sandbox where players create their own content and build their own world.
Where I will agree with you is that in order to really be a AAA sandbox this game will have to give PvP a bit more control and direction. It shouldn't be a mindless gankfest but an empire building simulator, and it should have good reason for both PvE and Crafting.
I've written some thoughts in the notes I've been taking on my ideal MMO:
Why Play an Open World PvP Sandbox for Crafting and PVE?
If(NotInCombatRange(Player1, Player2)) Then
{
MoveToCombatRange(Player1, Player2, Tick)
}
else
{
ResolveCombat(Player1, Player2)
}
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
I would say it's understanding the feature design. A programmer (or team) is given a list of features, they then interpret and come up with the code that accomplishes these features. By this I mean they do what they are told to do. If they are not told it doesn't happen. This list is often called a design document.
Let me list the game features that I feel could be UI independant: NPC quest dialog, NPC trade, NPC skill training, PvE combat, PvP combat, resource harvesting, mail, chat, inventory, character, and mission log. Just about every 3D game started out as a 2D game GTA, Fallout, and Diablo (actually inspired by text based NetHack).
The thing is I went to the site, and read a bit, but didn't play. I really don't know what it does. I suppose you can build walls, roads, and purpose based buildings (auction house, bank, farm, lumber mill, and barracks). You can then raise and train an army. Then set a location on the map to attack or move to. Like an RTS? Combining a static world map with dynamic player crafted elements is tricky, Every time you enter a zone you have to perform a patch. This involves load screens and time to transmit the information of player made content data. Does the static data have to be altered or modified to interface with this new data? Do sections of the map have to be flattened, raised, or lowered?
The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both. But the game has to remember to place the grass back when the army moves. I'm not saying a MMO like the mentioned MUD can't be made. But given the complexity of a dynamic player modified world map, a producer would roll their eyes and say pass on the feature. Only an independant, once they understood the design and could list and describe fully the feature. Features go though many definitions. Until someone gets it near right.
The thing is, neither the site or @Codician defined the features. Would the game be an MMO, or an RTS. I imagine it as an RTS, claim a spot on the map. Start harvesting resources food, lumber, stone, metal, and gold. Build farms, mines, homes, crafting guilds, lumber mills, trade districts, banks, hospitals, and churches(healing or magic). Like an RTS, structures determine NPC makeup of your empire and army. In an MMO players assume the roles of the NPCs. In an RTS, we have NPCs.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
"3D VIDEO gaming" we want to SEE what is happening,see the textures,see the armor,see the sword,see the animations,hear the sounds etc etc.
You cannot bring a game to life with aged MUD technology.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
\ O / head or arm
|x chest or heart
| stomach
/ \ leg
/ \ knee
- - foot
Above is a 2D NPC, used for an assisted target system (A.T.S.). I could perform a disarming hand shot or melee hit. A T.K.O. to the head. Even a movement hampering "arrow to the knee" attack. Now an A.T.S. usually implies a single player pause type function. I would use this system in a 2D or Text based MMO to set priority of attacks. Say, first skill attacks hand to disarm, or just call a disarm skill. Secondary target is legs to slow advance or escape. Third target is either head shot or heart shot. Now that I think about this, just load the tool bar with A.T.S. type skills rather than use the straw man. And that is how development works. Try an idea, then go with a better one.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Why would you want to limit them to graphical formats?
Nevertheless, I'll bite.
A MUD can take as little a single person to create with no money (Seriously, you could do this yourself with a little bit of programming knowledge and an old laptop in a closet to host the server.)... An MMO takes a team of tens/hundreds of programmers, directors, designers, artists, quality assurance personnel, huge datacenters to host the servers, and importantly money, lots of money.
Care to ask why MMO's don't do this again?
PS. Go on sourceforge, and click the games section, you'll find about a million results for MUDs made by a single person/small team created in a couple hours/days, and don't cost a dime. May the source be with you.