TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
Look at trucks for example every year Dodge and Chevy say they have the best trucks...but for 20+years Ford has been #1. So by your logic Chevy and Dodge are failures?
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
I didn't say SWTOR was a failure, or mention any comments from 2010, I simply commented on the figures you quoted. I'd really like to see some figures for "more people playing MMOs than ever before" too. If that is true then I'd bet they include more games than are on your list as MMOs, which would put SWTOR even further down.
The point is that when EA announced SWTOR in 2008 they wouldn't have been aiming to be making less revenue than a game from 1998 that doesn't even have North American servers any more. They looked at WOWs roughly 11 million subs back then and wanted a large chunk of that, I think the last time they released sub figures (years ago) SWTOR had around 300k. Not what they wanted, but they've adapted and they're doing ok now.
Again, not saying the game is a failure, I enjoy it and play myself (mainly for the story), I'm just saying it likely hasn't reached EA's expectations
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
Look at trucks for example every year Dodge and Chevy say they have the best trucks...but for 20+years Ford has been #1. So by your logic Chevy and Dodge are failures?
Don't forget that this guy is obviously clueless about the state of the MMO industry, considering he's bashing Lineage 1 which didn't do anything except make like $300 million USD in the last year. *pfft* that's like chump change, right? Also, I think it's commonly accepted that SWTOR makes in excess of $100 million annually. I believe it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 million in 2014. Sooooooo, yeah, while some may dislike it, there are millions who seem to enjoy it just fine.
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
I didn't say SWTOR was a failure, or mention any comments from 2010, I simply commented on the figures you quoted. I'd really like to see some figures for "more people playing MMOs than ever before" too. If that is true then I'd bet they include more games than are on your list as MMOs, which would put SWTOR even further down.
The point is that when EA announced SWTOR in 2008 they wouldn't have been aiming to be making less revenue than a game from 1998 that doesn't even have North American servers any more. They looked at WOWs roughly 11 million subs back then and wanted a large chunk of that, I think the last time they released sub figures (years ago) SWTOR had around 300k. Not what they wanted, but they've adapted and they're doing ok now.
Again, not saying the game is a failure, I enjoy it and play myself (mainly for the story), I'm just saying it likely hasn't reached EA's expectations
You saying they wanted to beat WoW was a comment one developer said in 2010 during an interview. It's not my fault you make comments without knowing where they come from.
You also said a decline in mmos. My figure was the top 5 mmos in revenue for Sept '16 try typing in "top 5 mmos in revenue for sept 2016" into Google for more info. It's a rather simple formula to determine there are more people playing mmos then ever before. I will lay out some facts for you.
1) There are more mmos on the market then ever before
2) PC that can handle these games are more affordable then ever before
3) Most mmos have a free to play option
4) More and more mmos are jumping into the console market which opens them up to even more people.
What game in 1998 was making $100,000,000+ year after year?
So i would love your take on when more people were playing mmos.
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
Look at trucks for example every year Dodge and Chevy say they have the best trucks...but for 20+years Ford has been #1. So by your logic Chevy and Dodge are failures?
Don't forget that this guy is obviously clueless about the state of the MMO industry, considering he's bashing Lineage 1 which didn't do anything except make like $300 million USD in the last year. *pfft* that's like chump change, right? Also, I think it's commonly accepted that SWTOR makes in excess of $100 million annually. I believe it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 million in 2014. Sooooooo, yeah, while some may dislike it, there are millions who seem to enjoy it just fine.
He has obviously drank the Kool-aid from sites like this about the doom and gloom of the mmo market.
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
I didn't say SWTOR was a failure, or mention any comments from 2010, I simply commented on the figures you quoted. I'd really like to see some figures for "more people playing MMOs than ever before" too. If that is true then I'd bet they include more games than are on your list as MMOs, which would put SWTOR even further down.
The point is that when EA announced SWTOR in 2008 they wouldn't have been aiming to be making less revenue than a game from 1998 that doesn't even have North American servers any more. They looked at WOWs roughly 11 million subs back then and wanted a large chunk of that, I think the last time they released sub figures (years ago) SWTOR had around 300k. Not what they wanted, but they've adapted and they're doing ok now.
Again, not saying the game is a failure, I enjoy it and play myself (mainly for the story), I'm just saying it likely hasn't reached EA's expectations
You saying they wanted to beat WoW was a comment one developer said in 2010 during an interview. It's not my fault you make comments without knowing where they come from.
You also said a decline in mmos. My figure was the top 5 mmos in revenue for Sept '16 try typing in "top 5 mmos in revenue for sept 2016" into Google for more info. It's a rather simple formula to determine there are more people playing mmos then ever before. I will lay out some facts for you.
1) There are more mmos on the market then ever before
2) PC that can handle these games are more affordable then ever before
3) Most mmos have a free to play option
4) More and more mmos are jumping into the console market which opens them up to even more people.
So i would love your take on when more people were playing mmos.
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer comments, just the fact that they invested heavily in an MMO based on a massive franchise. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Second point, you obviously don't have any figures to back up "more people playing MMOs than ever before" so you shouldn't say that until you do. None of your points prove it.
1. So? Doesn't mean people are playing them 2. Not really, a PC that can play BDO costs roughly the same as a PC that could play WOW at launch. Obviously a PC that can play WOW is much cheaper now than it was in 2004 but that's not comparing like to like. 3. And? just because it's f2p doesnt mean it gets played. Most of these games pop up and disappear constantly. 4. Again, availability doesn't necessarily mean it gets played.
But here one of the points I was making: the figures you quoted don't include consoles, but you're including them in your "facts" as a reason more MMOs are played. So it depends on your definition of MMO. Either we include console and mobile MMOs, in which case SWTOR will fall waaaaaaay below top 5 in revenue, or we just look at the traditional PC subscription based MMOs your figures cover.
If we do that, it's simple. WOW maxed out at around 12 mill subs when Cataclysm launched. Its lost subs since then (down to 5.5 mill before they stopped reporting) more than make up for the few hundred thousand other MMOs have. I'd say the real peak was likely a couple of years earlier when there were a few more competitors to WOW, around 2009.
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
By definition you are clueless. It's been reported WoW was back over 10 million subs with legion. The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had. This doesn't include all the other mmos like Gw2,ESO, FFXIV, Eve, Lotro, Rift, AoC and the list goes on and on. You claim these games come and go but all the ones I've mentioned have been around for years. Lay off the kook-aid facts aren't on your side.
TOR was not considered a success in the MMO industry.
3 of the 4 execs in charge of that thing left or were "fired" during and immediately after its launch.
The EA president also resigned during this time.
It was also hugely expensive to make: up to $400 mil when including marketing, by several estimates.
You do not get into the MMO business, at that level of funding, to make your money back in 3-5 years.
EA has likely "broken even" on TOR by now and are likely even in the black, but make no mistake, this was the game that was supposed to "kill WoW" and it didn't. EA even had to cook the books with free sub activations to make the numbers look better than they were just a few months in.
So people saying TOR is this or that, should keep that in mind.
It has been one of the better recoveries after its F2P conversion, but companies don't spend $400 mil to make a "F2P" game, either.
Hi welcome to 2016 (almost 2017) where SWTOR is still in the top 5 of western mmos in revenue year after year. 2011 called and would like their talking points back...
Just for fun a little tid bit of info from 2016 not 2011 where you are stuck...
Top Grossing Pay-to-play MMO Games by Revenue, September 2016
1
World of Warcraft
Activision Blizzard
2
Fantasy Westward Journey Online II
NetEase
3
Lineage I
NCSOFT
4
Star Wars: The Old Republic
Electronic Arts
5
Tera Online
En Masse
I would say any company would be happy being in the top 5 in revenue 5 years later...
Those figures point more to the decline of MMOs than to SWTORs success, the fact that Lineage makes the list shows that. Being a top 5 mmo in 2016 is small fry, EA wanted SWTOR to be the top MMO in a strong MMO market, not 4th (or likely lower counting f2p) in a weak one.
Don't get me wrong, I think SWTOR is decent for what is is, I'm actually subbed at the moment and looking forward to the expansion. I just disagree with the idea that EA would see it as a success since it was positioned to at least compete with WOW and never did.
Every mmo tries to reach for the WoW just because they don't doesn't mean they are a failure. It's entertaining how people bash swtor based on one comment made by one developer back in 2010. Yes it didn't beat WoW like one guy said in 2010 so therefore it's a failure even though it's been in the top five for five year...ok
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
I didn't say SWTOR was a failure, or mention any comments from 2010, I simply commented on the figures you quoted. I'd really like to see some figures for "more people playing MMOs than ever before" too. If that is true then I'd bet they include more games than are on your list as MMOs, which would put SWTOR even further down.
The point is that when EA announced SWTOR in 2008 they wouldn't have been aiming to be making less revenue than a game from 1998 that doesn't even have North American servers any more. They looked at WOWs roughly 11 million subs back then and wanted a large chunk of that, I think the last time they released sub figures (years ago) SWTOR had around 300k. Not what they wanted, but they've adapted and they're doing ok now.
Again, not saying the game is a failure, I enjoy it and play myself (mainly for the story), I'm just saying it likely hasn't reached EA's expectations
You saying they wanted to beat WoW was a comment one developer said in 2010 during an interview. It's not my fault you make comments without knowing where they come from.
You also said a decline in mmos. My figure was the top 5 mmos in revenue for Sept '16 try typing in "top 5 mmos in revenue for sept 2016" into Google for more info. It's a rather simple formula to determine there are more people playing mmos then ever before. I will lay out some facts for you.
1) There are more mmos on the market then ever before
2) PC that can handle these games are more affordable then ever before
3) Most mmos have a free to play option
4) More and more mmos are jumping into the console market which opens them up to even more people.
So i would love your take on when more people were playing mmos.
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer comments, just the fact that they invested heavily in an MMO based on a massive franchise. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Second point, you obviously don't have any figures to back up "more people playing MMOs than ever before" so you shouldn't say that until you do. None of your points prove it.
1. So? Doesn't mean people are playing them 2. Not really, a PC that can play BDO costs roughly the same as a PC that could play WOW at launch. Obviously a PC that can play WOW is much cheaper now than it was in 2004 but that's not comparing like to like. 3. And? just because it's f2p doesnt mean it gets played. Most of these games pop up and disappear constantly. 4. Again, availability doesn't necessarily mean it gets played.
But here one of the points I was making: the figures you quoted don't include consoles, but you're including them in your "facts" as a reason more MMOs are played. So it depends on your definition of MMO. Either we include console and mobile MMOs, in which case SWTOR will fall waaaaaaay below top 5 in revenue, or we just look at the traditional PC subscription based MMOs your figures cover.
If we do that, it's simple. WOW maxed out at around 12 mill subs when Cataclysm launched. Its lost subs since then (down to 5.5 mill before they stopped reporting) more than make up for the few hundred thousand other MMOs have. I'd say the real peak was likely a couple of years earlier when there were a few more competitors to WOW, around 2009.
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
Oh let me guess you know more than a CEO of a company that makes mmos...
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
By definition you are clueless. It's been reported WoW was back over 10 million subs with legion. The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had. This doesn't include all the other mmos like Gw2,ESO, FFXIV, Eve, Lotro, Rift, AoC and the list goes on and on. You claim these games come and go but all the ones I've mentioned have been around for years. Lay off the kook-aid facts aren't on your side.
Again, you present zero facts but say they aren't on my side, and the things you do say are just wrong. The report about WoW having over 10 million subs again was shot down by Blizzard and they had only sold 3.3 million copies of Legion by it's launch day, that's quite a discrepency.
You're also forgetting that in 2009 there were also other MMOs doing much better business than the ones you mention now. Eve, Lotro, Rift and AoC all had higher sub numbers in 2009 than they do now, so thanks for helping me prove my point, plus you had Aion with a few million subs and shortlived MMOs like WAR.
"The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had". Apart from the fact that 2 of those were around in 2009 as well, so you're relying on TERA and SWTOR to cover those extra subs. Good luck with that.
Anyway, we're miles off-topic now. Unless you want to make this SWTOR related, I'm done.
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
By definition you are clueless. It's been reported WoW was back over 10 million subs with legion. The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had. This doesn't include all the other mmos like Gw2,ESO, FFXIV, Eve, Lotro, Rift, AoC and the list goes on and on. You claim these games come and go but all the ones I've mentioned have been around for years. Lay off the kook-aid facts aren't on your side.
Again, you present zero facts but say they aren't on my side, and the things you do say are just wrong. The report about WOW having over 10 million subs again was shot down by Blizzard and they had only sold 3.3 million copies of Legion by it's launch day, that's quite a discrepency.
Even if they miraculously did have 10 million subs (which they didn't, and definitely wouldn't this long after the xpac launch bump) they're still well down, and you're forgetting that in 2009 there were also other MMOs doing much better business than the ones you mention now. Eve, Lotro, Rift and AoC all had higher sub numbers in 2009 than they do now, so thanks for helping me prove my point, plus you had Aion with a few million subs and shortlived MMOs like WAR.
Oh are you crying about subs??? I'm talking total players. Just because they don't pay doesn't mean they don't count as a player. So no little buddy I didn't prove your point. You said they all come and go but nope they are all still here adding content. Nice try with each post you just get more ignorant...keep it coming. Oh you must have missed this post?
So let me guess you know more than a CEO who makes mmos??
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
By definition you are clueless. It's been reported WoW was back over 10 million subs with legion. The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had. This doesn't include all the other mmos like Gw2,ESO, FFXIV, Eve, Lotro, Rift, AoC and the list goes on and on. You claim these games come and go but all the ones I've mentioned have been around for years. Lay off the kook-aid facts aren't on your side.
Again, you present zero facts but say they aren't on my side, and the things you do say are just wrong. The report about WOW having over 10 million subs again was shot down by Blizzard and they had only sold 3.3 million copies of Legion by it's launch day, that's quite a discrepency.
Even if they miraculously did have 10 million subs (which they didn't, and definitely wouldn't this long after the xpac launch bump) they're still well down, and you're forgetting that in 2009 there were also other MMOs doing much better business than the ones you mention now. Eve, Lotro, Rift and AoC all had higher sub numbers in 2009 than they do now, so thanks for helping me prove my point, plus you had Aion with a few million subs and shortlived MMOs like WAR.
Oh are you crying about subs??? I'm talking total players. Just because they don't pay doesn't mean they don't count as a player. So no little buddy I didn't prove your point. You said they all come and go but nope they are all still here adding content. Nice try with each post you just get more ignorant...keep it coming. Oh you must have missed this post?
So let me guess you know more than a CEO who makes mmos??
Again, no facts, and the interview you link to says absolutely nothing about whether there are more mmo players now than there ever have been, which is what we're discussing.
If you want to bring some actual figures as I have done (that aren't completely wrong like your WoW having 10 million subs nonsense) then please do, if not stop wasting my and your own time.
And also don't call people "little buddy" just because you don't have an adequate argument, you just make yourself look silly.
I just said they wanted to be the top MMO, wasn't related to any developer
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
By definition you are clueless. It's been reported WoW was back over 10 million subs with legion. The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had. This doesn't include all the other mmos like Gw2,ESO, FFXIV, Eve, Lotro, Rift, AoC and the list goes on and on. You claim these games come and go but all the ones I've mentioned have been around for years. Lay off the kook-aid facts aren't on your side.
Again, you present zero facts but say they aren't on my side, and the things you do say are just wrong. The report about WOW having over 10 million subs again was shot down by Blizzard and they had only sold 3.3 million copies of Legion by it's launch day, that's quite a discrepency.
Even if they miraculously did have 10 million subs (which they didn't, and definitely wouldn't this long after the xpac launch bump) they're still well down, and you're forgetting that in 2009 there were also other MMOs doing much better business than the ones you mention now. Eve, Lotro, Rift and AoC all had higher sub numbers in 2009 than they do now, so thanks for helping me prove my point, plus you had Aion with a few million subs and shortlived MMOs like WAR.
Oh are you crying about subs??? I'm talking total players. Just because they don't pay doesn't mean they don't count as a player. So no little buddy I didn't prove your point. You said they all come and go but nope they are all still here adding content. Nice try with each post you just get more ignorant...keep it coming. Oh you must have missed this post?
So let me guess you know more than a CEO who makes mmos??
Again, no facts, and the interview you link to says absolutely nothing about whether there are more mmo players now than there ever have been, which is what we're discussing.
If you want to bring some actual figures as I have done (that aren't completely wrong like your WoW having 10 million subs nonsense) then please do, if not stop wasting my and your own time.
And also don't call people "little buddy" just because you don't have an adequate argument, you just make yourself look silly.
I've brought facts this entire time...not my fault they don't sit well with your kool-aid.
If theres no good star wars mmo for me thats out right now theres always the option of battlefront and future star wars games at least. I was really looking forward to star wars 1313 ugh, those are the type of star wars games I'm interested in.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
Big arguments about what the sales people are feeling about SWTOR, which to me is pretty far off the path of what should matter to players. The fact that Todd in marketing was able to buy his Porsche doesn't help the terrible replay and exploration in SWTOR. As a habitable world it fails terribly even though the public consumes it "as is."
Customers want to play a star wars game, and most are not of the mind to vote with their dollar or FtP logon. The reality is that the game producer has very little incentive to make positive design changes given that the average customer is an "As Is" donation addict. SO to me the financial success of the game is actually not a part of the quality discussion as they could have actually made the game even worse and it still would have pulled in money because it is Star Wars.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Big arguments about what the sales people are feeling about SWTOR, which to me is pretty far off the path of what should matter to players. The fact that Todd in marketing was able to buy his Porsche doesn't help the terrible replay and exploration in SWTOR. As a habitable world it fails terribly even though the public consumes it "as is."
Customers want to play a star wars game, and most are not of the mind to vote with their dollar or FtP logon. The reality is that the game producer has very little incentive to make positive design changes given that the average customer is an "As Is" donation addict. SO to me the financial success of the game is actually not a part of the quality discussion as they could have actually made the game even worse and it still would have pulled in money because it is Star Wars.
At the same time what you find quality doesn't translate to what others find quality. And to label those who disagree with you with a term like "as is" donation addict completely makes anything you say about the game irrelevant.
I wonder if we ever again get a new MMO with loads of features like SWG, but but then with modern graphics.
Production time (and costs for that reason) for new state of the art 3D graphics seems to only get higher. Which would explain why the late MMO's (well, FPS with some RPG sprinkles might be a better description) feel so shallow compared to older MMO's. Just look at the current survival type games on Steam and how easily they get heavily critizised about graphics.
All the complexity in new games seems to be now found in top down stuff or 2D.
Where are those virtual world MMO's we were promised in the early 00's?
I would gladly pay 60€ per expansion IF even remotely worth in content and quality AND CLASS SPECIFIC QUEST CHAIN to the ORIGINAL game. Sure last "expansion" was free. And it is worth as much. I'm not paying for some good cinematics again. And have no wish to do over and over same cinematics with all my alts.
I guess one can hope that Rogue One is such a success that they decide they simply cannot walk away from a new game.
Well there will be a new game. Visceral and Motive Studios are working on a new one which is supposed to be a 3rd person open-world RPG. 65 people at Motive. Not sure how many at Visceral. Either way, it should be a 100 person development effort at minimum, I'd say. With the success of The Division and Destiny, I'd be surprised if they didn't go that quasi-MMO route. All the advantages without the negative geek stigma :awesome:
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't SWtoR use the same engine as ESO? If that's the case they could rework the combat to a more action style of play. The graphics are great the quests and voice acting are top notch, the only reason I don't play is cause it World of Starwars...
Comments
You can think the mmo market is "weak" but facts would say you are wrong. There are more people playing mmos today then ever before. Just because you may not like most of the games or you get threads on websites like this about people crying what they think is wrong with mmos doesn't mean it's weak.
Look at trucks for example every year Dodge and Chevy say they have the best trucks...but for 20+years Ford has been #1. So by your logic Chevy and Dodge are failures?
The point is that when EA announced SWTOR in 2008 they wouldn't have been aiming to be making less revenue than a game from 1998 that doesn't even have North American servers any more. They looked at WOWs roughly 11 million subs back then and wanted a large chunk of that, I think the last time they released sub figures (years ago) SWTOR had around 300k. Not what they wanted, but they've adapted and they're doing ok now.
Again, not saying the game is a failure, I enjoy it and play myself (mainly for the story), I'm just saying it likely hasn't reached EA's expectations
A game can be a financial failure and still be a great game. Swtor might not be a financial failure but in a star wars lore sense its a failure.
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
Don't forget that this guy is obviously clueless about the state of the MMO industry, considering he's bashing Lineage 1 which didn't do anything except make like $300 million USD in the last year. *pfft* that's like chump change, right? Also, I think it's commonly accepted that SWTOR makes in excess of $100 million annually. I believe it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 million in 2014. Sooooooo, yeah, while some may dislike it, there are millions who seem to enjoy it just fine.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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You also said a decline in mmos. My figure was the top 5 mmos in revenue for Sept '16 try typing in "top 5 mmos in revenue for sept 2016" into Google for more info. It's a rather simple formula to determine there are more people playing mmos then ever before. I will lay out some facts for you.
1) There are more mmos on the market then ever before
2) PC that can handle these games are more affordable then ever before
3) Most mmos have a free to play option
4) More and more mmos are jumping into the console market which opens them up to even more people.
What game in 1998 was making $100,000,000+ year after year?
So i would love your take on when more people were playing mmos.
Second point, you obviously don't have any figures to back up "more people playing MMOs than ever before" so you shouldn't say that until you do. None of your points prove it.
1. So? Doesn't mean people are playing them
2. Not really, a PC that can play BDO costs roughly the same as a PC that could play WOW at launch. Obviously a PC that can play WOW is much cheaper now than it was in 2004 but that's not comparing like to like.
3. And? just because it's f2p doesnt mean it gets played. Most of these games pop up and disappear constantly.
4. Again, availability doesn't necessarily mean it gets played.
But here one of the points I was making: the figures you quoted don't include consoles, but you're including them in your "facts" as a reason more MMOs are played. So it depends on your definition of MMO. Either we include console and mobile MMOs, in which case SWTOR will fall waaaaaaay below top 5 in revenue, or we just look at the traditional PC subscription based MMOs your figures cover.
If we do that, it's simple. WOW maxed out at around 12 mill subs when Cataclysm launched. Its lost subs since then (down to 5.5 mill before they stopped reporting) more than make up for the few hundred thousand other MMOs have. I'd say the real peak was likely a couple of years earlier when there were a few more competitors to WOW, around 2009.
Anyway, by this definition of MMO, there certainly aren't "more people playing mmos today then ever before". If you want to include consoles and mobile, then maybe there are more people playing MMOs now, but you also need to include them in the figures when ranking MMOs revenue.
http://massivelyop.com/2016/10/19/trions-scott-hartsman-the-mmo-market-is-in-very-good-health/
You're also forgetting that in 2009 there were also other MMOs doing much better business than the ones you mention now.
Eve, Lotro, Rift and AoC all had higher sub numbers in 2009 than they do now, so thanks for helping me prove my point, plus you had Aion with a few million subs and shortlived MMOs like WAR.
"The four other titles on my list probably cover the 2 million extra cataclysm had". Apart from the fact that 2 of those were around in 2009 as well, so you're relying on TERA and SWTOR to cover those extra subs. Good luck with that.
Anyway, we're miles off-topic now. Unless you want to make this SWTOR related, I'm done.
So let me guess you know more than a CEO who makes mmos??
http://massivelyop.com/2016/10/19/trions-scott-hartsman-the-mmo-market-is-in-very-good-health/
If you want to bring some actual figures as I have done (that aren't completely wrong like your WoW having 10 million subs nonsense) then please do, if not stop wasting my and your own time.
And also don't call people "little buddy" just because you don't have an adequate argument, you just make yourself look silly.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
Customers want to play a star wars game, and most are not of the mind to vote with their dollar or FtP logon. The reality is that the game producer has very little incentive to make positive design changes given that the average customer is an "As Is" donation addict. SO to me the financial success of the game is actually not a part of the quality discussion as they could have actually made the game even worse and it still would have pulled in money because it is Star Wars.
Executive Editor (Games) http://www.wccftech.com
Production time (and costs for that reason) for new state of the art 3D graphics seems to only get higher. Which would explain why the late MMO's (well, FPS with some RPG sprinkles might be a better description) feel so shallow compared to older MMO's. Just look at the current survival type games on Steam and how easily they get heavily critizised about graphics.
All the complexity in new games seems to be now found in top down stuff or 2D.
Where are those virtual world MMO's we were promised in the early 00's?
Well there will be a new game. Visceral and Motive Studios are working on a new one which is supposed to be a 3rd person open-world RPG. 65 people at Motive. Not sure how many at Visceral. Either way, it should be a 100 person development effort at minimum, I'd say. With the success of The Division and Destiny, I'd be surprised if they didn't go that quasi-MMO route. All the advantages without the negative geek stigma :awesome:
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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