Should forced group play be removed from MMOs?

TheScavenger · November 2016

Already many games removed forced grouping. But they didn't go the extra mile and more of a bait and switch

For example, you can solo from level 1 to 110 in WoW. But suddenly, at 110, you are forced to raid to progress. Yet, the entire game of WoW up until that point was 100% solo. Why not do what older MMOs have done, and let you have a raid difficulty slider?

So for example if you wanted to do a raid solo. You'd set the raid slider to one player. It be easier content, but not nearly as good loot as a raid. But you can still experience the content.

Some games, forced grouping isn't even a thing. In GW2 and EVE, while there IS player interaction, I've never once been forced to group. In EVE, I'd say easily 95% of my entire past 400 game hours has been solo. EVE is an amazing solo MMO, but it also is an amazing group based MMO. The thing? Grouping isn't required, the game never forces you to group. Same with GW2. In GW2, I can do any event or boss and not be forced to group, but other people are free to join in.

For raid based MMOs that have a 100% solo focused leveling experience, really would benefit from a raid difficulty slider. And many MMOs are already having better solo play (like GW2/EVE), while still having the door open for groups. Even Ryzom, which is a heavy group focused game, still allows you to play 100% solo...its harder and more challenging, but it makes it more fun.

What are your guys's thoughts?

Kyleran · November 2016

I think what we need is a virtual world so dangerous to set foot out of town by yourself would range from foolhardy at best to catastrophic at worst.

TheScavenger · November 2016

Kyleran said:

I think what we need is a virtual world so dangerous to set foot out of town by yourself would range from foolhardy at best to catastrophic at worst.

Well I'd agree with this, because then the game would be 100% group based. Not 100% solo for a huge amount of leveling experience, and suddenly 100% group at endgame.

Murashu · November 2016

WoW and the likes never force you to group either. Just like in EVE, if you want to do certain content, you will need to join a group. Haven't seen anyone solo an incursion mothership yet have you?

WoW has a lot of group content available at lvl 10+ so saying the point of the entire game up to lvl 110 is just flat out false. Personally I'd love to see more group content added with less focus on solo content, but that's just me.

Sovrath · November 2016

I think the world should have dangerous parts and if one wants to traverse those parts they need to either be amazing or have friends.

Either way will do for my taste.

Wizardry · November 2016

The ONLY true grouping game is/was FFXi and they managed to still incorporate the ability to solo or duo.
Point being,no you do not need to remove it,we need to remove all the crappy developers who think there is ONLY one way to design a game.
Remove all those crappy devs that think a login screen is only there to encourage cash shop sales while designing a NON MMO game.

4507 · November 2016

Why do you make so many posts? This is getting to the point of spam...

OT: You identified the problem in your post. MMOs are mainly solo until endgame, which is really the opposite of how it should go - players should group together at lower levels because they're weaker and more vulnerable, slowly becoming more independent as they advance.

Scott23 · November 2016

Forced group play has already been removed from almost all current MMOs as far as I can tell.

centkin · November 2016

Actually the bait and switch element you cite is why there are so many game-hoppers. If you level from 1 to max solo in a month or two and then it becomes all raids, many players just switch to another game.

LynxJSA · November 2016

I think its absence would probably shift development toward more pre-WOW style MMOs.

Arawulf · November 2016

The angle the OP is attempting to argue is that because you can level solo that it is 100% designed to be solo. It's like saying that because I can blend my hamburger in a blender and drink it that a burger 100% has to be eaten that way. An honest look at the WoW experience from 100 to 110 will see that there are tons of grouping opportunities including open world and dungeon. Yes, you can ignore them if you choose but it's a bit unfair to say that the game is a bait and switch that changes everything up at max level.

LynxJSA · November 2016

TheScavenger said:

Why not do what older MMOs have done, and let you have a raid difficulty slider?

So for example if you wanted to do a raid solo. You'd set the raid slider to one player. It be easier content, but not nearly as good loot as a raid. But you can still experience the content.

Which MMOs had that? The only pre-WOW that comes to mind with something like that was AC.

TheScavenger · November 2016

LynxJSA said:

TheScavenger said:

Why not do what older MMOs have done, and let you have a raid difficulty slider?

So for example if you wanted to do a raid solo. You'd set the raid slider to one player. It be easier content, but not nearly as good loot as a raid. But you can still experience the content.

Which MMOs had that? The only pre-WOW that comes to mind with something like that was AC.

Well, it wasn't for raiding. But City of Heroes and Anarchy Online had mission difficulty sliders. City of Heroes might have actually not had an actual slider, but the mission changed depending how many you had in a group.

Both of those never seemed like raid centric MMOs (I never treated them as such anyway) like WoW is, but they DID offer difficulty sliders for missions, or at very least, scaled content for 1 or more players.

Annwyn · November 2016

I'd love to see an MMO where grouping is a necessity to survive. I don't mean running raids and dungeons with a party, I mean "leave the city alone and you're dead" type. A bit like Dark Souls or Bloodborne...but as an MMO with classes. Brutal game, but succeeding in taking down huge crazy bosses feels so awesome. Solo would still be "possible" so that players would still be able to do various activities during downtimes, but the reward would be far lower. I want to play this game now! Just imagining it is a bit exciting!

TheScavenger · November 2016

Annwyn said:

I'd love to see an MMO where grouping is a necessity to survive. I don't mean running raids and dungeons with a party, I mean "leave the city alone and you're dead" type. A bit like Dark Souls or Bloodborne...but as an MMO with classes. Brutal game, but succeeding in taking down huge crazy bosses feels so awesome. Solo would still be "possible" so that players would still be able to do various activities during downtimes, but the reward would be far lower. I want to play this game now! Just imagining it is a bit exciting!

I agree! While what I wrote focused more on solo. Like I said in a response, if the game instead was mostly group focused like you described, throughout the whole game, that be just as good too. An MMO like Dark Souls would be epic!

jmcdermottuk · November 2016

I'm sorry but what exactly is the point of an online multiplayer game, let alone a massively multiplayer game, if all you do is run solo content? You may as well just buy a single player game.

Devs understood this and made grouping a requirement to make progress. It's not until the dreaded bean counting suits got involved and started on about maximising profits that we get the switch to solo play designed to appeal to the casual player.

You'll get supporters of both camps rejecting the other's ideas and the only way to really make any progress is to start including both types of play in the same MMO, from the start, rather than after reaching the level cap.

Eldurian · November 2016

I think most games actually get the balance between solo and group fairly good. Solo is an option but you need a group to do a lot of the more rewarding content. The one problem I often see is games where it's easier to get a lot of tasks done solo. Like you will get more XP, Gold whatever per minute if you just set out on your own than if you work as part of a group. Especially as a high DPS character.

I'd try to make it so that adding more players and seeking a challenge more appropriate for them is always more rewarding for the vast majority of content.

Other than that, I'm find with solo-viable content.

waynejr2 · November 2016

TheScavenger said:

LynxJSA said:

TheScavenger said:

Why not do what older MMOs have done, and let you have a raid difficulty slider?

So for example if you wanted to do a raid solo. You'd set the raid slider to one player. It be easier content, but not nearly as good loot as a raid. But you can still experience the content.

Which MMOs had that? The only pre-WOW that comes to mind with something like that was AC.

Well, it wasn't for raiding. But City of Heroes and Anarchy Online had mission difficulty sliders. City of Heroes might have actually not had an actual slider, but the mission changed depending how many you had in a group.

Both of those never seemed like raid centric MMOs (I never treated them as such anyway) like WoW is, but they DID offer difficulty sliders for missions, or at very least, scaled content for 1 or more players.

City of Heroes had a difficulty slider. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Notoriety

TheScavenger · November 2016

waynejr2 said:

TheScavenger said:

LynxJSA said:

TheScavenger said:

Why not do what older MMOs have done, and let you have a raid difficulty slider?

So for example if you wanted to do a raid solo. You'd set the raid slider to one player. It be easier content, but not nearly as good loot as a raid. But you can still experience the content.

Which MMOs had that? The only pre-WOW that comes to mind with something like that was AC.

Well, it wasn't for raiding. But City of Heroes and Anarchy Online had mission difficulty sliders. City of Heroes might have actually not had an actual slider, but the mission changed depending how many you had in a group.

Both of those never seemed like raid centric MMOs (I never treated them as such anyway) like WoW is, but they DID offer difficulty sliders for missions, or at very least, scaled content for 1 or more players.

City of Heroes had a difficulty slider. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Notoriety

ah, I thought so. I didn't fully remember though, so I didn't want to say for sure. Thanks for clarification

LynxJSA · November 2016

jmcdermottuk said:

I'm sorry but what exactly is the point of an online multiplayer game, let alone a massively multiplayer game, if all you do is run solo content? You may as well just buy a single player game.

Devs understood this and made grouping a requirement to make progress. It's not until the dreaded bean counting suits got involved and started on about maximising profits that we get the switch to solo play designed to appeal to the casual player.

You'll get supporters of both camps rejecting the other's ideas and the only way to really make any progress is to start including both types of play in the same MMO, from the start, rather than after reaching the level cap.

Grouping and interactivity are not necessarily one in the same. There was no "grouping" in Ultima Online, and it handled the multiplayer mantle rather masterfully. Not having grouping does not mean solo play.

Theocritus · November 2016

Kyleran said:

I think what we need is a virtual world so dangerous to set foot out of town by yourself would range from foolhardy at best to catastrophic at worst.

I always liked the "it takes the whole town to take monsters down" approach.....Its really sad that the games are so easy that any solo player can take down almost any monster, other than raid bosses, in so many MMOs......This is what the masses wanted with WoW coming out years ago......They wanted no downtime and the ability to play by themselves....Congratulations, 12 years later we still have the exact same games.

anemo · November 2016

I think devs should focus on incidental grouping instead. For Instance:

Areas in the world designed to be a "time drag" to work your way through solo, but at the same time cluster players up so that they're working together even if they're not actually in a group. (IE: a valley pass that takes 40 mins to get through solo, but since it resets so infrequently it means that as one person works their way through they'll either have some poeple on their side help out or meet people working their way through on the opposite side to the time saving benefit of all parties).

The same thing should happen in crafting. Looking at a solo built item should be something that is a massive under taking in man hours. But you have the ability to trade for that time. (IE: EvE an industrialist rarely does all steps of the process from mining, processing ore, research for base component, base component, invention for T2, addition components for T2, footing the costs for production environment, shuttling equipment to the market hub/place it'll be used, and baby sitting the market orders to get it sold).

VestigeGamer · November 2016

LynxJSA said:

Grouping and interactivity are not necessarily one in the same. There was no "grouping" in Ultima Online, and it handled the multiplayer mantle rather masterfully. Not having grouping does not mean solo play.

Again, I'm sorry I missed out on UO. What I don't like is the word "forced." I guess if some content takes a group to get through like raids, it is "forced", but that is content built specifically for groups.

EQ allowed players to go from place without a group being in place. There were plenty of monsters and such out and about, but one could usually weave their way through the zone. But a low level character was nervous as all get out. This way, players starting in different cities (starting zones) could get together.

I appreciate MMOs that encourage playing with others, but not "forcing" a player to do so.

iixviiiix · November 2016

I think i made one thread about this topic before .

Problem with forced group is middle contents.
Some game require you to play middle contents to get to end contents , but when everyone at end contents then no one play middle contents . So the middle contents is unplayable .

those kind of brainless forced group contents should be remove from MMO . Those are suck .

Iselin · November 2016

Sovrath said:

I think the world should have dangerous parts and if one wants to traverse those parts they need to either be amazing or have friends.

Either way will do for my taste.

I agree but you'll have to convince people that channeling their inner Uma Thurman to go 1 v. 100 isn't fun for them.

Soloing packs is all about making you feel heroic. Raiding a boss with no adds is just choreography.

waynejr2 · November 2016

Kyleran said:

I think what we need is a virtual world so dangerous to set foot out of town by yourself would range from foolhardy at best to catastrophic at worst.

Why would the town be safe? You are surrounded by your fellow man. Bad place to be.

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Should forced group play be removed from MMOs?

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Should forced group play be removed from MMOs?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV