Oh? Is Second Life still a thing? Well other than being a red-light district
Obviously games and persistent worlds need funding to operate and pay their content creators and engineers but when it becomes all about the money then what makes them so attractive becomes something about as appealing as a diseased crack-whore.
just like real life no?
here is the thing.
in real life you pay money to buy land to build shit on it to be impressive and talk about. hmmmmm see any connection?
The connection being, in real life you actually have that piece of land with a title deed. Show me where the guarantee that these games won't shut down in 2 years time is and I will agree with you. Otherwise stupid to compare something such as land in real life to a small space online that can and WILL be taken away from you and you cant do shit about it.
first off so what?
so there you are with a deed that cost you $100,000 instead of $1,000 with the main difference being that you feel you are more secure in keeping it when it fact you are only marginally more secure in keeping it, I give you EMINENT DOMAIN
So, you are happier with your hard earned money being in the hands of a developer that can end your little party pretty much whenever he wants rather than in the hands of the government who have processes and obligations to follow if they wish to take a bit of land.
Do you even listen to your own logic here?
of course not. which is why I am saying this is an opportunity. laws and regulations should be created at which point it could be very exciting time.
In fact, for those who dont want to pay they would likely even have more gaming opportunities they dont have now.
but as it turns out laws and regulations do not write themselves, it takes will. you are expressing the opposite of that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Oh? Is Second Life still a thing? Well other than being a red-light district
Obviously games and persistent worlds need funding to operate and pay their content creators and engineers but when it becomes all about the money then what makes them so attractive becomes something about as appealing as a diseased crack-whore.
just like real life no?
here is the thing.
in real life you pay money to buy land to build shit on it to be impressive and talk about. hmmmmm see any connection?
The connection being, in real life you actually have that piece of land with a title deed. Show me where the guarantee that these games won't shut down in 2 years time is and I will agree with you. Otherwise stupid to compare something such as land in real life to a small space online that can and WILL be taken away from you and you cant do shit about it.
You mean like if a natural disaster destroys or contaminates your land or the government changes the status of your land to eminent domain and just takes it?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You should have tried to check out if this idea had not already been tried out in an MMO before making this thread. If you had, you would have found out there is Entropia Universe where real cash is used as an ingame currency.
Never underestimate humans. They are always one step ahead of you when it comes to hunger for money and stuff. They are like the Ferengi from Star Trek.
so whats some of the things they did right vs wrong?
Oh? Is Second Life still a thing? Well other than being a red-light district
Obviously games and persistent worlds need funding to operate and pay their content creators and engineers but when it becomes all about the money then what makes them so attractive becomes something about as appealing as a diseased crack-whore.
just like real life no?
here is the thing.
in real life you pay money to buy land to build shit on it to be impressive and talk about. hmmmmm see any connection?
The connection being, in real life you actually have that piece of land with a title deed. Show me where the guarantee that these games won't shut down in 2 years time is and I will agree with you. Otherwise stupid to compare something such as land in real life to a small space online that can and WILL be taken away from you and you cant do shit about it.
first off so what?
so there you are with a deed that cost you $100,000 instead of $1,000 with the main difference being that you feel you are more secure in keeping it when it fact you are only marginally more secure in keeping it, I give you EMINENT DOMAIN
So, you are happier with your hard earned money being in the hands of a developer that can end your little party pretty much whenever he wants rather than in the hands of the government who have processes and obligations to follow if they wish to take a bit of land.
Do you even listen to your own logic here?
To be fair, the government taking your land might be the least of your concerns. Lest we forget the real estate crash that happened in the states just recently (like years ago). Your land doesn't necessarily need to be taken away, it's quite similar/the same if your land all of a sudden became worthless as my morning shit. Granted, the timeline is likely accelerated in something like a game, but if we're talking about the validity of it as an investment, it isn't necessarily any more secure. Just because I can go and physically sit on the $1000 piece of land that I paid $100,000 for doesn't provide me with any consolation.
Same goes for gold. Everyone always says, "Put your money in gold! It only rises!" Lol. Yeah, except every 3 or 4 years it takes a shit and you lose a fuck-ton of money.
Reality? Just like anything else, don't spend money on something that you can't bear to lose. There have been games which are heavily driven by real-world money (Entropia Universe). They aren't really my bag, but I know that there are people who really enjoy that financial aspect of the game. I definitely enjoy buying/selling stuff in a game, but I'm risk averse when it comes to putting my own money into a game. I would say that most games where you DO use real-world currency in-game tend to imitate life. While there might be a couple grinders who are successful making money in the game, spending nothing, there are another hundred spending tons of money and losing it.
Oh? Is Second Life still a thing? Well other than being a red-light district
Obviously games and persistent worlds need funding to operate and pay their content creators and engineers but when it becomes all about the money then what makes them so attractive becomes something about as appealing as a diseased crack-whore.
just like real life no?
here is the thing.
in real life you pay money to buy land to build shit on it to be impressive and talk about. hmmmmm see any connection?
The connection being, in real life you actually have that piece of land with a title deed. Show me where the guarantee that these games won't shut down in 2 years time is and I will agree with you. Otherwise stupid to compare something such as land in real life to a small space online that can and WILL be taken away from you and you cant do shit about it.
first off so what?
so there you are with a deed that cost you $100,000 instead of $1,000 with the main difference being that you feel you are more secure in keeping it when it fact you are only marginally more secure in keeping it, I give you EMINENT DOMAIN
So, you are happier with your hard earned money being in the hands of a developer that can end your little party pretty much whenever he wants rather than in the hands of the government who have processes and obligations to follow if they wish to take a bit of land.
Do you even listen to your own logic here?
To be fair, the government taking your land might be the least of your concerns. Lest we forget the real estate crash that happened in the states just recently (like years ago). Your land doesn't necessarily need to be taken away, it's quite similar/the same if your land all of a sudden became worthless as my morning shit. Granted, the timeline is likely accelerated in something like a game, but if we're talking about the validity of it as an investment, it isn't necessarily any more secure. Just because I can go and physically sit on the $1000 piece of land that I paid $100,000 for doesn't provide me with any consolation.
Same goes for gold. Everyone always says, "Put your money in gold! It only rises!" Lol. Yeah, except every 3 or 4 years it takes a shit and you lose a fuck-ton of money.
Reality? Just like anything else, don't spend money on something that you can't bear to lose. There have been games which are heavily driven by real-world money (Entropia Universe). They aren't really my bag, but I know that there are people who really enjoy that financial aspect of the game. I definitely enjoy buying/selling stuff in a game, but I'm risk averse when it comes to putting my own money into a game. I would say that most games where you DO use real-world currency in-game tend to imitate life. While there might be a couple grinders who are successful making money in the game, spending nothing, there are another hundred spending tons of money and losing it.
to be fair the core argument that laws and protections exist in reality (although flawed) and do not exist in a digital world is a valid point HOWEVER, one has to understand that the laws in reality didnt just magically appear either. There was a will.
So we should (for this conversation) assume such protections could realistically be in place to more or less the same degree of magnitude as it is in real life in measurement to the amount of money in question and then re-ask the question; is digital goods a good idea. and on that I vote yes
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
This is just a basic idea and need kinks iron out. But the idea is to use Real World Money as in-game money.
When players create/buy an account they are started off with some of their money converted to its in-game version, on the character.
Players can trade their ingame currency for trade and services like any other MMO. But ingame money can be exchanged for its real world equivalent. taxes and all.
So in some ways, players can do in-game activities for real world money, such as large gathering of crafting materials, and long crafting process for money.
the economy would need to be deeper for this to work, but like I said, just a basic idea that need to be iron out.
Entropia Universe had the same premise. It worked fairly well. I played it extensively for about a year.
The game was free to play, but required about 10$ to get you up and running. A free player had the ability to extract "mana" from animals. This resource was used by higher players, so you could essentially sell it at a market driven rate. Not very profitable, so investing some minimal capital would save you days of animal extracting.
Once you got about 10$, you could either hunt animals or harvest resources. Weapons used ammunition and had decay. Harvesting used "probes", which is basically ammunition. This means the developers had full control over buy-in/reward. You could level up your skills, using more expensive weapons but getting higher rewards.
The whole concept is basically a big casino. I had no issue with that, knowing that's how it is - the game did not try to hide it either. You invest money, then get part of your investment back as loot. It was quite fun, so I did not mind losing some of the money in the process.
I think it's perfectly viable in a PvE game. You have different tiers of content that don't directly influence each other - if a player wants to drop 2000$ on the game, they can do that. If they want to drop 10$, they can also do that, without being completely screwed over. The 2000$ player can be spending 50$ on ammo a day, getting nice drops worth 49$. The 10$ player can be spending 0.5$ on ammo a day, getting starting drops worth 0.4$. If the game has a skill system, you are not really losing any money, as your character is gaining value as you level it up.
The one downside is that on the very low spectrum (no to minimal investment), the game should be very tedious. You can't have free players substantially impacting the game world, if there is real money involved. In a free-to-play game with no real money, the non-payers should be able to do more (in theory).
The other downside is PvP. If it is PvP centric, you might have a pay-to-win issue.
My suggestion for that is to use the Buy to Play model rather than F2P. this way part of the money from buying the account can be used for starter money.
Also I suggest PvP be faction based, making it a little easier to pass on the balance, also perhaps be a bit GW2 WvW like in scaling. If players handling all the gear repair, than money can still be somewhat used in PvP without it going fully to making one character more stronger than others.
Open world can have both PvP and PvE, and with faction base, the players can have a "TAX" that goes to paying a group of their faction for zone defense from enemy faction players. Adds a bit to the economy aspect.
One problem is, how to apply post account creation real life money into the game without going too extreme. Maybe this is where a Pay to Play model can come in.
With a sub, a part of each player's sub is converted into ingame money to add to the economy, rather than just B2P model like I suggested above.
This is just a basic idea and need kinks iron out. But the idea is to use Real World Money as in-game money.
When players create/buy an account they are started off with some of their money converted to its in-game version, on the character.
Players can trade their ingame currency for trade and services like any other MMO. But ingame money can be exchanged for its real world equivalent. taxes and all.
So in some ways, players can do in-game activities for real world money, such as large gathering of crafting materials, and long crafting process for money.
the economy would need to be deeper for this to work, but like I said, just a basic idea that need to be iron out.
Entropia Universe had the same premise. It worked fairly well. I played it extensively for about a year.
The game was free to play, but required about 10$ to get you up and running. A free player had the ability to extract "mana" from animals. This resource was used by higher players, so you could essentially sell it at a market driven rate. Not very profitable, so investing some minimal capital would save you days of animal extracting.
Once you got about 10$, you could either hunt animals or harvest resources. Weapons used ammunition and had decay. Harvesting used "probes", which is basically ammunition. This means the developers had full control over buy-in/reward. You could level up your skills, using more expensive weapons but getting higher rewards.
The whole concept is basically a big casino. I had no issue with that, knowing that's how it is - the game did not try to hide it either. You invest money, then get part of your investment back as loot. It was quite fun, so I did not mind losing some of the money in the process.
I think it's perfectly viable in a PvE game. You have different tiers of content that don't directly influence each other - if a player wants to drop 2000$ on the game, they can do that. If they want to drop 10$, they can also do that, without being completely screwed over. The 2000$ player can be spending 50$ on ammo a day, getting nice drops worth 49$. The 10$ player can be spending 0.5$ on ammo a day, getting starting drops worth 0.4$. If the game has a skill system, you are not really losing any money, as your character is gaining value as you level it up.
The one downside is that on the very low spectrum (no to minimal investment), the game should be very tedious. You can't have free players substantially impacting the game world, if there is real money involved. In a free-to-play game with no real money, the non-payers should be able to do more (in theory).
The other downside is PvP. If it is PvP centric, you might have a pay-to-win issue.
My suggestion for that is to use the Buy to Play model rather than F2P. this way part of the money from buying the account can be used for starter money.
Also I suggest PvP be faction based, making it a little easier to pass on the balance, also perhaps be a bit GW2 WvW like in scaling. If players handling all the gear repair, than money can still be somewhat used in PvP without it going fully to making one character more stronger than others.
Open world can have both PvP and PvE, and with faction base, the players can have a "TAX" that goes to paying a group of their faction for zone defense from enemy faction players. Adds a bit to the economy aspect.
One problem is, how to apply post account creation real life money into the game without going too extreme. Maybe this is where a Pay to Play model can come in.
With a sub, a part of each player's sub is converted into ingame money to add to the economy, rather than just B2P model like I suggested above.
I think viewing games in the context of battles is for 2016 quickly becoming extreemly limited in view. not all games nor are all economic solutions or modifications related to combat or competition for that matter.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I love the idea! If i could use real money instead of gold and other currencies, i wouldn't be broke in my games!!
Oh, wait....
If Enron could sell futures on weather (which was a plan they had) I see no reason why one could not have eventually a 'stock market' of digital assets
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
true, but in this case, money really would equate to P2W. A lawyer would be able to out buy most of the student community. What would be their motivation to play if they know they have no chance.
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
true, but in this case, money really would equate to P2W. A lawyer would be able to out buy most of the student community. What would be their motivation to play if they know they have no chance.
yeah that is super lame.
that is , in my view, desperately going out of ones way to feverishly look for some reason to play the victim and complain. because some guys instanced virtual condo looks better than yours
to be clear I understand you are just making an illustration of what could and likely would happen. I am just suggesting that stuff happens anyway
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Entropia has its own in-game currency calles PED (Project Entropia Dollars).
The OP was about having RL money as the only in-game currency.
Entropia avoids the legal issues via a simple loophole of having their own in game currency
Its the same thing in the end ... Real Cash is the end result, PED is Real Cash .. therefore Real Cash is PED
While there is a clear conversion rate of 1US dollar being about 10 PED, legally this distinction is important hence not the same.
Otherwise you could say the same for every online game that has its own currency (crowns, credits etc..) which ALL have real money value being converted to in-game currency.
so no sir, its not the same as having actual unconverted money as currency in game.
I think (but not sure) what he is suggesting is that a PED and a Dollar are both elements of illusion. Laws and regulations around one maybe more than the other but that can be changed.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
true, but in this case, money really would equate to P2W. A lawyer would be able to out buy most of the student community. What would be their motivation to play if they know they have no chance.
Perhaps the students would be better motivated to become lawyers?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People call the ability to buy a +1 weapon P2W. Can you imagine this. No, wouldn't work. Although, I did play this style of game in Vegas. Was a lot of fun.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
true, but in this case, money really would equate to P2W. A lawyer would be able to out buy most of the student community. What would be their motivation to play if they know they have no chance.
Perhaps the students would be better motivated to become lawyers?
which is generally how it works at meta level in the real world
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Entropia has its own in-game currency calles PED (Project Entropia Dollars).
The OP was about having RL money as the only in-game currency.
Entropia avoids the legal issues via a simple loophole of having their own in game currency
Its the same thing in the end ... Real Cash is the end result, PED is Real Cash .. therefore Real Cash is PED
While there is a clear conversion rate of 1US dollar being about 10 PED, legally this distinction is important hence not the same.
Otherwise you could say the same for every online game that has its own currency (crowns, credits etc..) which ALL have real money value being converted to in-game currency.
so no sir, its not the same as having actual unconverted money as currency in game.
I think (but not sure) what he is suggesting is that a PED and a Dollar are both elements of illusion. Laws and regulations around one maybe more than the other but that can be changed.
exactly right, thats the point and makes this statement irrelevant ...
DMKano said..."will never happen as this model violates several credit card/online payment regulations.
Every single game have 3rd party trading websites . People will always spend real money so In my opinion best option is just make it totaly legal . If Someone want to sell his goods for real money so why not ? They can sell it anyway .This is my personal opinion so dont get mad on me
This is just a basic idea and need kinks iron out. But the idea is to use Real World Money as in-game money.
When players create/buy an account they are started off with some of their money converted to its in-game version, on the character.
Players can trade their ingame currency for trade and services like any other MMO. But ingame money can be exchanged for its real world equivalent. taxes and all.
So in some ways, players can do in-game activities for real world money, such as large gathering of crafting materials, and long crafting process for money.
the economy would need to be deeper for this to work, but like I said, just a basic idea that need to be iron out.
Um they already do this. Eve online plex, and all the others you can change real money into game money, where have you been?
Comments
In fact, for those who dont want to pay they would likely even have more gaming opportunities they dont have now.
but as it turns out laws and regulations do not write themselves, it takes will. you are expressing the opposite of that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
To be fair, the government taking your land might be the least of your concerns. Lest we forget the real estate crash that happened in the states just recently (like years ago). Your land doesn't necessarily need to be taken away, it's quite similar/the same if your land all of a sudden became worthless as my morning shit. Granted, the timeline is likely accelerated in something like a game, but if we're talking about the validity of it as an investment, it isn't necessarily any more secure. Just because I can go and physically sit on the $1000 piece of land that I paid $100,000 for doesn't provide me with any consolation.
Same goes for gold. Everyone always says, "Put your money in gold! It only rises!" Lol. Yeah, except every 3 or 4 years it takes a shit and you lose a fuck-ton of money.
Reality? Just like anything else, don't spend money on something that you can't bear to lose. There have been games which are heavily driven by real-world money (Entropia Universe). They aren't really my bag, but I know that there are people who really enjoy that financial aspect of the game. I definitely enjoy buying/selling stuff in a game, but I'm risk averse when it comes to putting my own money into a game. I would say that most games where you DO use real-world currency in-game tend to imitate life. While there might be a couple grinders who are successful making money in the game, spending nothing, there are another hundred spending tons of money and losing it.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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So we should (for this conversation) assume such protections could realistically be in place to more or less the same degree of magnitude as it is in real life in measurement to the amount of money in question and then re-ask the question; is digital goods a good idea. and on that I vote yes
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Also I suggest PvP be faction based, making it a little easier to pass on the balance, also perhaps be a bit GW2 WvW like in scaling. If players handling all the gear repair, than money can still be somewhat used in PvP without it going fully to making one character more stronger than others.
Open world can have both PvP and PvE, and with faction base, the players can have a "TAX" that goes to paying a group of their faction for zone defense from enemy faction players. Adds a bit to the economy aspect.
One problem is, how to apply post account creation real life money into the game without going too extreme. Maybe this is where a Pay to Play model can come in.
With a sub, a part of each player's sub is converted into ingame money to add to the economy, rather than just B2P model like I suggested above.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
not all games nor are all economic solutions or modifications related to combat or competition for that matter.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
and like bitcoin people would fall for it. I still think it could be done but your point would have to be taken seriously
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
If i could use real money instead of gold and other currencies, i wouldn't be broke in my games!!
Oh, wait....
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I self identify as a monkey.
but with real money. people will no doubt go out of their way to figure out how having cool things in your condo means 'winning' but people go out of their way to figure out how to be a victim all the time so there is that...ha!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I self identify as a monkey.
that is , in my view, desperately going out of ones way to feverishly look for some reason to play the victim and complain. because some guys instanced virtual condo looks better than yours
to be clear I understand you are just making an illustration of what could and likely would happen. I am just suggesting that stuff happens anyway
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Laws and regulations around one maybe more than the other but that can be changed.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
DMKano said..."will never happen as this model violates several credit card/online payment regulations.
Its a moot point "
Hell I would be more interested by what you couldn't buy and had to actually earn by playing the game.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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