For instance, if intelligence were part of the formula for parry,
you could build two tanks entirely different. One may focus on brute
strength and damage absorption, while another may focus on agility and
intelligence to avoid getting hit altogether. That system would play
together beautifully with a race/class combination and allow different
class/race combos to still have some distinction from members of their
class of another race.
Well ... that would be the ideal.
I dont like Guild Wars as a whole, its an incredibly bland and boring game, but one of the things I liked was its stats system. You wouldnt get stats per race or anything, you would get it per class.
This way stat choices are actual choices and its not a question of "which stats you think you need, anyway ?".
Like in Vanguard, you had to know which stats your class needed to be good. So your Sorcerer would need +Int, +Wis, +Vit, your Necromancer would need +Int, +Wis, +Con (on higher levels possibly even +Int, +Con, +Wis because Con was your "real" mana pool and mana regen, since you could replenish it anytime with lifetaps), your Warrior would need +Con, +Str, +Dex, your Paladin would need +Con, +Str, +Vit, etc.
It would be nice if in Pantheon, this would be different, but I dont expect that to happen.
I once worked on a selfmade system and I ended up giving everybody a Fire, Earth, Air and Water stat. This way I could taylor these stats to every class and make them actual descisions. Fire became either Strength or Willpower, depending upon if you played a physical or mental class. Likewise Earth became Stamina or Wisdom, Air became Flexibility or Intelligence, and Water became Dexterity or Empathy.
And then for example a Wizard would use these stats accordingly. Fire/Willpower descides how hard your spells are to resist, how much damage you deal, and how hard it is to dominate your mind, Earth/Wisdom descides your general magical defense against any spell and how much mana you have, Air/Intelligence regulates how fast you can cast spells and how much you have to pay for casting a certain spell - the higher your intelligence, the cheaper the Mana cost for complex spells -, how many and powerful spells you could learn, and your chance to evade spells completely, and Empathy descides how fast your mana regenerates, specifies the strength beneficial spells, and gives you defenses against emotional attack spells such as fear.
In this system, chosing your stats is then actually a choice. As a Wizard, do you want a large mana pool and lots of general spell resistance ? Go Earth/Wisdom. Etc.
This way it is impossible to choose poor stats for your character. It no longer is a question of how well you know your class when choosing stats. Its an actual choice about how you want to play your class.
The design challenge is this. If you allow all classes to play
all races, but then give some races attributes where almost everyone
will play that race/class combination (because the combination is
clearly superior), then the goal of promoting diversity is largely
defeated. But if, to avoid that, you give all races essentially the same
stats so you can effectively play every class, the goal of having
racial diversity is defeated.
Someone gets it.
Err ... just because you two agree happen to agree doesnt mean you're right. Which in this case - you arent.
- What you describe is the effect of poor race design. Which for example Vanguard already did not have, and I dont see why Pantheon should have it.
- Races should be mixed bags. They should be flavor. You dont get all out better at something, you get advantages and disadvantages, no matter what kind of job it is. For example, in Vanguard stats usually had diminishing returns and hard caps anyway. So the +2 that
Lesser Giant tanks could have over human tanks ? Sure, a (small) advantage during normal adventuring when it came to damage and aggro. The kind of difference I would call flavor and would prefer to have. But worthless during raids, since humans could already cap there, too.
- Plus EQ and Vanguard are gear heavy games anyway. Not as extreme as WoW, but good gear makes all the difference.
- Plus of course playing the class was important, too. I held aggro against better equipped Paladins on my Dread Knight, which was supposed to be the worst class in respect to aggro generation. Why ? Because I had carefully studied my class.
- Also, at least in Vanguard Humans have been the clearly superior choice. Because they had the flexibility with stats, and all classes had more than one important stat anyway. Heck, Qaliathari Humans (Arabs) even got the strongest racial ability in the game.
- Very likely Pantheon will be the same, humans will again be the strongest pick ... and guess what race gets all the classes.
- The only exception in Vanguard was maybe tanks and Constitution. IIRC there wasnt even diminishing returns or a hard cap for Constitution. So yeah, in that respect Dwarf was the superior choice for tank. However the returns from Constitution have been quite mediocre. And there was no way I would play dwarf just because they get the big Con bonus. Because, well, dwarves in Vanguard have been ugly. Same goes for Gnome and Orc. Not for goblin, though, I wouldnt call them pretty but they could look very stylish. While dwarves and gnomes looked all out ugly and orcs looked like pigs. Also the animal races have been intolerable, they had a human body but an animal head. More like egyptian deities than like believable sentient races. Judging from what I've seen in Vanguard, many other tank players felt the same. Tanks came in all kinds of races, even clearly poor choices like Darkelf.
You may not agree but what matters most is VR development team agrees. Races will not just be flavors, they will impact your game play in a meaningful way. They talk about it in the last live stream. Races are not just cosmetic.
I just feel this assumption is a bit unfounded, to put it lightly. You are literally generalizing that certain races and the race/class combo as a whole is already/will be imbalanced. I mean I could probably generalize 50 things they could do to balance classes out from here until launch, so I'm not sure how you reach your conclusions.
I'd also point out the innate lack of starting stats humans had in EQ in addition to the Pantheon Lore showing humans as one of the only races where they tell or hint and no dichotomy or subrace within its race. This is contrary to elves, gnomes, and skar ( just off the top of my head), which would make us to believe humans would be even further limited/hindered in that regard. But again, so much of this is unfounded postulation (even from my end); however, simply creating an argument to balance out your perspective, as there are countless things they could do to implement balance from here until launch (not to mention end game perception quests etc we have no idea how things will balance out). Certain races in EQ etc were even capped out with certain skills (E.G. my Beastlord's dual wield was always like half of my rangers even past level 70). Another example of setting a ceiling they could hypothetically impost in attempt to balance. Not sure why you're so sold humans will be OP, literally in almost every MMO I've played, humans always have the widest array of class selection, and in no way was that indicative of imbalance (albeit Qualthari's were strong, 1 sample does not satisfy a statistical trend or near it).
The design challenge is this. If you allow all classes to play
all races, but then give some races attributes where almost everyone
will play that race/class combination (because the combination is
clearly superior), then the goal of promoting diversity is largely
defeated. But if, to avoid that, you give all races essentially the same
stats so you can effectively play every class, the goal of having
racial diversity is defeated.
Someone gets it.
Err ... just because you two agree happen to agree doesnt mean you're right. Which in this case - you arent.
- What you describe is the effect of poor race design. Which for example Vanguard already did not have, and I dont see why Pantheon should have it.
- Races should be mixed bags. They should be flavor. You dont get all out better at something, you get advantages and disadvantages, no matter what kind of job it is. For example, in Vanguard stats usually had diminishing returns and hard caps anyway. So the +2 that
Lesser Giant tanks could have over human tanks ? Sure, a (small) advantage during normal adventuring when it came to damage and aggro. The kind of difference I would call flavor and would prefer to have. But worthless during raids, since humans could already cap there, too.
- Plus EQ and Vanguard are gear heavy games anyway. Not as extreme as WoW, but good gear makes all the difference.
- Plus of course playing the class was important, too. I held aggro against better equipped Paladins on my Dread Knight, which was supposed to be the worst class in respect to aggro generation. Why ? Because I had carefully studied my class.
- Also, at least in Vanguard Humans have been the clearly superior choice. Because they had the flexibility with stats, and all classes had more than one important stat anyway. Heck, Qaliathari Humans (Arabs) even got the strongest racial ability in the game.
- Very likely Pantheon will be the same, humans will again be the strongest pick ... and guess what race gets all the classes.
- The only exception in Vanguard was maybe tanks and Constitution. IIRC there wasnt even diminishing returns or a hard cap for Constitution. So yeah, in that respect Dwarf was the superior choice for tank. However the returns from Constitution have been quite mediocre. And there was no way I would play dwarf just because they get the big Con bonus. Because, well, dwarves in Vanguard have been ugly. Same goes for Gnome and Orc. Not for goblin, though, I wouldnt call them pretty but they could look very stylish. While dwarves and gnomes looked all out ugly and orcs looked like pigs. Also the animal races have been intolerable, they had a human body but an animal head. More like egyptian deities than like believable sentient races. Judging from what I've seen in Vanguard, many other tank players felt the same. Tanks came in all kinds of races, even clearly poor choices like Darkelf.
You may not agree but what matters most is VR development team agrees. Races will not just be flavors, they will impact your game play in a meaningful way. They talk about it in the last live stream. Races are not just cosmetic.
I just feel this assumption is a bit unfounded, to put it lightly. You are literally generalizing that certain races and the race/class combo as a whole is already/will be imbalanced. I mean I could probably generalize 50 things they could do to balance classes out from here until launch, so I'm not sure how you reach your conclusions.
I'd also point out the innate lack of starting stats humans had in EQ in addition to the Pantheon Lore showing humans as one of the only races where they tell or hint and no dichotomy or subrace within its race. This is contrary to elves, gnomes, and skar ( just off the top of my head), which would make us to believe humans would be even further limited/hindered in that regard. But again, so much of this is unfounded postulation (even from my end); however, simply creating an argument to balance out your perspective, as there are countless things they could do to implement balance from here until launch (not to mention end game perception quests etc we have no idea how things will balance out). Certain races in EQ etc were even capped out with certain skills (E.G. my Beastlord's dual wield was always like half of my rangers even past level 70). Another example of setting a ceiling they could hypothetically impost in attempt to balance. Not sure why you're so sold humans will be OP, literally in almost every MMO I've played, humans always have the widest array of class selection, and in no way was that indicative of imbalance (albeit Qualthari's were strong, 1 sample does not satisfy a statistical trend or near it).
Its more then just stats but that will be part of it. Elf will start with more int and less str. Ogre will have more str but low int. On top of that in the last stream they talks about atmosphere. If you dont know about them, simply put if you dont have a tolerance to one of the many atmosphere in game and they seem to be a common mechanic. Then going into one can kill you quickly many ways. Some effects are lose of HP, Mana drain, snares, burning alive lol. The Dark Myr will start out with a tolerance to the atmosphere "Pressure" Being they were at one point water dwelling.
Again this compounded with their system of recycling characters to start a new one with extra boosts (no clue what they can be) Will recycling an Elf give you Elf like boosts? Or are they generic and the same for all races? Take the boosts from both the race and the boosts from recycling a high level char could be huge because as it stands, picking a race in Pantheon is not just cosmetic. It is not just a few extra stats. From what we have gathered its more then that.
I personally love RPG that make every decision an impacting one. Picking a faction in game opens doors but it closes others. This is how real RPGs should be. Thats what made them great in the past and why most RPGs today are water down so you can have it all. You get no replay from that. Making a character should be a unique adventure. If I roll a new char, I should be able to have a different experience then my first char. Some of the best RPGs still played 10 years later are just like that. Like Morrowind.
Shoehorning people into a race choice they don't enjoy in order to be effective is a 90's thing sure to lose you customers.
I hope they do it similar to how the chart is set up. If you just "have" to play a certain race then you can pick a class that is available for that race.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Shoehorning people into a race choice they don't enjoy in order to be effective is a 90's thing sure to lose you customers.
there are a lot of things this game will feature that is sure to lose them customers, i don't think they are making the game to appeal to everyone, at least i hope not.
Racial class restrictions are all about trying to force people to play unpopular races.
No it is all about Lore. it gives a better cultural background about the races without delving too much in the Lore narrative. But I agree that it helps making sure that the world is not inhabited by only 1 or 2 races over a choice of 8-10.
I am for Race/Class restriction.
It's also restricted by the IP. For instance, the main reason why there was no opposing faction in LOTRO, and instead they opted for monster play, is because they were not allowed to develop one outside of what was found in the books. So they would have had to develop entire towns, cultures, hierarchies, and quest stories in order to include a separate faction that were not supported by the books.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
I can't think of a single MMO that has taken this approach. Apart from people being upset because of wanting an Elf Cleric or gnome warrior (traditional combos from fantasy lore we all know that were not given to us because of aforementioned lore in Pantheon), I think you'll find you're in the minority of players who would prefer there not to be "uniqueness" among races/classes correlation. It would substantially hinder any racial significance during character creation (apart from racial passives and your starting city maybe your innate language). Race/class restrictions so heavily supplements a player's immersion into a game. In Everquest etc, you FEEL you are part of the world, not a part of a video game. This is because of a multitude of environmental factors (largely race restrictions). With these restrictions, you are forced to live out the dark life in the underground city of Dark Elves if you want to play a necro or maybe the shiny bright hills of a halfling if you want to exp fastest (halflings and other races gain exp slower and faster than other races in EQ). With the extended time required to exp, what happens is you feel yourself becoming a dark elf, halfing, etc. It's a subconscious thing at first, but you spend so much time in your area (and these areas are so vastly different from topography requiring you to swim more like Iksars etc, to simply having much more complex/annoying city layouts because of the historical architecture of a specific race (vah shir for instance I hated their city walls it was so inconvenient). You will see the world in Pantheon will feel like our own world, where Asians (including India) are known for their cultural food/life/land/architecture favoring obvious dishes/farming styles, along with other races in our world. It sounds dangerously nerdy, yes, but it is true, and I know people will back me on this. It is this very immersion/hardcore leveling/skill requirement that simply get you LOST in their world. It's what us hardcore players love about the genre, and I think a lot of the newer players more used to themepark cookie cutter MMOS will really come to enjoy this more thorough, artistic and thought-driven, cultural world and living breathing environment. It ends being quite beautiful. Without any restrictions, every race playing every class would literally just boil down races to being no more significant than a visual/color/texture choice. You lose that feeling of actually "being" a gnome or dwarf, that feeling of specialty, where you automatically know (when you see a gnome, dwarf etc) that they are good at X, Y, Z. Similar to when we see a 7ft guy built guy with a nice car walking down the street, we know he's probably in the NBA or NFL (poor, quick example off the top of my head, but you get the idea). These themes play out in our real world, too, we just don't pay attention to them/take our beautiful differences for granted. Restrictions are a great thing that demands honesty by way of diversity and dedication.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
lol this makes no sense. so you don't want to be forced to pick a race that you hate in order to be the best you can be? how exactly is picking from every race going to fix that? you will still be forced to pick the race you hate if you want to be the best you can be lol
if you are a min/maxer which i assume that you are judging by this comment, you have no choice in a race at all, you have to pick "Erudite" (as an example) regardless because you will be ever so slightly gimped if you don't.
so again, what you are saying really doesn't make sense other than the fact you seem to want to have more freedom of choice, which is understandable.
others want picking a race to hold more meaning and they want it to make sense from a lore standpoint. i'm with those people for this game.
I would not mind seeing a more hybrid approach to locking.
Certain things require a hard lock. For instance, I completely agree with locking Gnomes so that they can't be druids.
However, for something less rigid, like an Ogre Wizard, I'd prefer such choices be allowed, but heavily penalized by their base properties. For instance(taking a page out of D&D here), if your available spell memorization slots was tied to your INT. So, an Ogre Wizard would still be playable, but could only memorize 6 spells compared to a Gnome's 10.
But, again, such things would require avoiding stat inflation, so I guess you could have straight-up racial penalties on a class-by-class basis in that scheme.
I'm all for allowing people to play something they'd rather play(unless it's completely implausible like a Gnome Druid), if they are willing to accept limitations on their choice. To me, it seems like the best mix.
It's a good thing Pantheon is offering multiple races for every class, so no one gets shoehorned.
It just barely fits the definition of "multiple"
Edit: Ultimately it's not a huge deal for me, as I will simply not play the game if my preferred race/class combo is unavailable. I was really just trying to point out the fact that there's no good reason for restrictions on character creation at all. "Lore" just means you haven't taken the time to come up with exceptions to a rule, less work.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
It's lazy is what it is. Easier to say "no, because I said so". "race choices that matter" just means everyone who's a wizard is an elf. It literally accomplishes nothing else.
Edit: Just play ESO in lowbie zones. It's full of "What's the best race for X?"
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
My point with the Ogre is no different then VR insistent that the fingers of an Ogre are not deft enough to play a flute. Sure make an Ogre Wizard, as long as enough negative hits happen to make it sensible. Should end up being a character no one would want or be wanted for a team. Everything should come at a cost. You want to petition for that? I feel bad for the newbe that does not know they are rolling a laughable character.
The class race combos available are awesome as it stands.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
It's lazy is what it is. Easier to say "no, because I said so". "race choices that matter" just means everyone who's a wizard is an elf. It literally accomplishes nothing else.
Edit: Just play ESO in lowbie zones. It's full of "What's the best race for X?"
Yeah, cause it's so much harder to just make every race play every class.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
My point with the Ogre is no different then VR insistent that the fingers of an Ogre are not deft enough to play a flute. Sure make an Ogre Wizard, as long as enough negative hits happen to make it sensible. Should end up being a character no one would want or be wanted for a team. Everything should come at a cost. You want to petition for that? I feel bad for the newbe that does not know they are rolling a laughable character.
The class race combos available are awesome as it stands.
If his fingers aren't deft enough to play a flute then that sounds like a dexterity hit. Then it would make sense they can't do any job that requires dexterity, intelligence, or wisdom as a main class attribute.
By your reasoning every race should have severe penalties as well. And what's the reasoning again, that realistic lore reason, that humans can do it all? The inconsistencies are obvious.
I can live with it though. It's only a deal breaker if I find a class I like and the only racial options suck. There are only 2 main dealbreakers for me in an mmo - race class combos that suck (I can't find one I like) and crappy combat. There are a few more but mostly all the rest I can work out. If I hate my character or their appearance then it's game off.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
My point with the Ogre is no different then VR insistent that the fingers of an Ogre are not deft enough to play a flute. Sure make an Ogre Wizard, as long as enough negative hits happen to make it sensible. Should end up being a character no one would want or be wanted for a team. Everything should come at a cost. You want to petition for that? I feel bad for the newbe that does not know they are rolling a laughable character.
The class race combos available are awesome as it stands.
If his fingers aren't deft enough to play a flute then that sounds like a dexterity hit. Then it would make sense they can't do any job that requires dexterity, intelligence, or wisdom as a main class attribute.
By your reasoning every race should have severe penalties as well. And what's the reasoning again, that realistic lore reason, that humans can do it all? The inconsistencies are obvious.
I can live with it though. It's only a deal breaker if I find a class I like and the only racial options suck. There are only 2 main dealbreakers for me in an mmo - race class combos that suck (I can't find one I like) and crappy combat. There are a few more but mostly all the rest I can work out. If I hate my character or their appearance then it's game off.
Right on. To add to that, Ogres can be Shamans and Druids, both magic using classes so if someone wants to play a magic using Ogre, they can. Only the ones they are told they can. They should be able to be played as a Enchanter or a Cleric or whatever.
well if it's like EQ shamans and druids are wisdom based casters, not inelegance based. meaning they gain power from wisdom, not intelligence.
It's a good thing Pantheon is offering multiple races for every class, so no one gets shoehorned.
It just barely fits the definition of "multiple"
Edit: Ultimately it's not a huge deal for me, as I will simply not play the game if my preferred race/class combo is unavailable. I was really just trying to point out the fact that there's no good reason for restrictions on character creation at all. "Lore" just means you haven't taken the time to come up with exceptions to a rule, less work.
No, there's plenty of good reasons, they just don't happen to be reasons you agree with. To you, being able to be any race you want for any class is important. For a lot of us, it ruins the immersion and the consistency of the in game world and lore. If Ogres are supposed to be dumb brutes, why would it make sense for them to be an enchanter or a wizard? Now, if you feel that player choice is more important that's fine, and if that is a litmus test for you, that's also fine. You have a thousand other MMO's you can play with all the player race/class choices in the world you can choose from.
Think about this, what would you do if you were watching Game of Thrones and all of a sudden a character rode up on a Harley Davidson and jumped off and started shooting people with a machine gun? You would think it was ridiculous and stupid, and justly so, it's inconsistent with the story and lore of the show/books.
All we're asking for is that the game be internally consistent with it's lore.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Even without lore consistency, I think games that have major consequences based on the choices you make at character creation are more interesting than those that don't. If you choose to be an ogre mage, there should be large consequences, positive or negative.
However, I will say that 100% restriction seems mostly silly to me. Allow the players to make poor decisions (and therefor good ones too). With an interesting progression system, maybe ogres could be great mages and elves could make great warriors.
Comments
http://imgur.com/s4OwACV
I dont like Guild Wars as a whole, its an incredibly bland and boring game, but one of the things I liked was its stats system. You wouldnt get stats per race or anything, you would get it per class.
This way stat choices are actual choices and its not a question of "which stats you think you need, anyway ?".
Like in Vanguard, you had to know which stats your class needed to be good. So your Sorcerer would need +Int, +Wis, +Vit, your Necromancer would need +Int, +Wis, +Con (on higher levels possibly even +Int, +Con, +Wis because Con was your "real" mana pool and mana regen, since you could replenish it anytime with lifetaps), your Warrior would need +Con, +Str, +Dex, your Paladin would need +Con, +Str, +Vit, etc.
It would be nice if in Pantheon, this would be different, but I dont expect that to happen.
I once worked on a selfmade system and I ended up giving everybody a Fire, Earth, Air and Water stat. This way I could taylor these stats to every class and make them actual descisions. Fire became either Strength or Willpower, depending upon if you played a physical or mental class. Likewise Earth became Stamina or Wisdom, Air became Flexibility or Intelligence, and Water became Dexterity or Empathy.
And then for example a Wizard would use these stats accordingly. Fire/Willpower descides how hard your spells are to resist, how much damage you deal, and how hard it is to dominate your mind, Earth/Wisdom descides your general magical defense against any spell and how much mana you have, Air/Intelligence regulates how fast you can cast spells and how much you have to pay for casting a certain spell - the higher your intelligence, the cheaper the Mana cost for complex spells -, how many and powerful spells you could learn, and your chance to evade spells completely, and Empathy descides how fast your mana regenerates, specifies the strength beneficial spells, and gives you defenses against emotional attack spells such as fear.
In this system, chosing your stats is then actually a choice. As a Wizard, do you want a large mana pool and lots of general spell resistance ? Go Earth/Wisdom. Etc.
This way it is impossible to choose poor stats for your character. It no longer is a question of how well you know your class when choosing stats. Its an actual choice about how you want to play your class.
I'd also point out the innate lack of starting stats humans had in EQ in addition to the Pantheon Lore showing humans as one of the only races where they tell or hint and no dichotomy or subrace within its race. This is contrary to elves, gnomes, and skar ( just off the top of my head), which would make us to believe humans would be even further limited/hindered in that regard. But again, so much of this is unfounded postulation (even from my end); however, simply creating an argument to balance out your perspective, as there are countless things they could do to implement balance from here until launch (not to mention end game perception quests etc we have no idea how things will balance out). Certain races in EQ etc were even capped out with certain skills (E.G. my Beastlord's dual wield was always like half of my rangers even past level 70). Another example of setting a ceiling they could hypothetically impost in attempt to balance. Not sure why you're so sold humans will be OP, literally in almost every MMO I've played, humans always have the widest array of class selection, and in no way was that indicative of imbalance (albeit Qualthari's were strong, 1 sample does not satisfy a statistical trend or near it).
Again this compounded with their system of recycling characters to start a new one with extra boosts (no clue what they can be) Will recycling an Elf give you Elf like boosts? Or are they generic and the same for all races? Take the boosts from both the race and the boosts from recycling a high level char could be huge because as it stands, picking a race in Pantheon is not just cosmetic. It is not just a few extra stats. From what we have gathered its more then that.
I personally love RPG that make every decision an impacting one. Picking a faction in game opens doors but it closes others. This is how real RPGs should be. Thats what made them great in the past and why most RPGs today are water down so you can have it all. You get no replay from that. Making a character should be a unique adventure. If I roll a new char, I should be able to have a different experience then my first char. Some of the best RPGs still played 10 years later are just like that. Like Morrowind.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
if you are a min/maxer which i assume that you are judging by this comment, you have no choice in a race at all, you have to pick "Erudite" (as an example) regardless because you will be ever so slightly gimped if you don't.
so again, what you are saying really doesn't make sense other than the fact you seem to want to have more freedom of choice, which is understandable.
others want picking a race to hold more meaning and they want it to make sense from a lore standpoint. i'm with those people for this game.
Certain things require a hard lock. For instance, I completely agree with locking Gnomes so that they can't be druids.
However, for something less rigid, like an Ogre Wizard, I'd prefer such choices be allowed, but heavily penalized by their base properties.
For instance(taking a page out of D&D here), if your available spell memorization slots was tied to your INT. So, an Ogre Wizard would still be playable, but could only memorize 6 spells compared to a Gnome's 10.
But, again, such things would require avoiding stat inflation, so I guess you could have straight-up racial penalties on a class-by-class basis in that scheme.
I'm all for allowing people to play something they'd rather play(unless it's completely implausible like a Gnome Druid), if they are willing to accept limitations on their choice. To me, it seems like the best mix.
It just barely fits the definition of "multiple"
Edit: Ultimately it's not a huge deal for me, as I will simply not play the game if my preferred race/class combo is unavailable.
I was really just trying to point out the fact that there's no good reason for restrictions on character creation at all.
"Lore" just means you haven't taken the time to come up with exceptions to a rule, less work.
It's lazy is what it is. Easier to say "no, because I said so".
"race choices that matter" just means everyone who's a wizard is an elf. It literally accomplishes nothing else.
Edit: Just play ESO in lowbie zones. It's full of "What's the best race for X?"
The class race combos available are awesome as it stands.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Your objections are lazy.
No, there's plenty of good reasons, they just don't happen to be reasons you agree with. To you, being able to be any race you want for any class is important. For a lot of us, it ruins the immersion and the consistency of the in game world and lore. If Ogres are supposed to be dumb brutes, why would it make sense for them to be an enchanter or a wizard? Now, if you feel that player choice is more important that's fine, and if that is a litmus test for you, that's also fine. You have a thousand other MMO's you can play with all the player race/class choices in the world you can choose from.
Think about this, what would you do if you were watching Game of Thrones and all of a sudden a character rode up on a Harley Davidson and jumped off and started shooting people with a machine gun? You would think it was ridiculous and stupid, and justly so, it's inconsistent with the story and lore of the show/books.
All we're asking for is that the game be internally consistent with it's lore.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
However, I will say that 100% restriction seems mostly silly to me. Allow the players to make poor decisions (and therefor good ones too). With an interesting progression system, maybe ogres could be great mages and elves could make great warriors.