"Yesterday is history Tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift.
Thats why they call it - present." -Oogway
Seems like OP likes to dwell in the past, maybe watch more kids shows, you can learn a lot
I'm 54 years old, been doing Kung Fu for 26 years and I can run an 18 year old into the ground, they barely can last a simple one hour class. I play video games and hang out with people in their 20's.
I'm completely up to speed on everything and do it all..... I can say for a fact their was wayyyy more freedom back then, it was much better !
Ok so lets say that it was better back in the day - now what?
Its not comming back, those days are never coming back.
No matter how much you think and talk about it, the past is done.
So why invest so much energy into it when its not going to bring the past back?
It's coming back and Pantheon will prove it's the establishment and not the people. People are being tricked into thinking they like stuff. They have the power and money to tell us so. You and I have no power unless you have an extra two million to advertise your opinion.
People are settling, sure people like games like BDO, but this is a different group of people here now, sure it's oblivious some like both. The mmo people have nothing !
Wow, didn't realize all those games I enjoy playing was because I was being tricked lol. I know this might be very difficult for you to understand. But not everyone thinks like you. Some of us don't really want the "old days" back. We are perfectly content with the endless amount of games available today.
I put forth you never really like those old game which is why you feel they would be so bad now.
I'm playing a DAOC freeshard with a 2002 rule set, "horrible" UI, "bad" graphics" and "terrible" mechanics.
My friends and I are having the time of our lives, reliving past glories, reveling in victories, laughing our arses off when we are crushed.
Sure, at times we curse some of the game's shortcomings (but we must remain 1.65 compliant!) but the overall experience is outstanding. In fact I put forth the "mechanics" in this game are far superior to anything newer that I've played in the past 10 years.
The depth is amazing, you don't realize how shallow modern titles are until you experience one of the earlier ones once again.
I've actually turned down 4 group invites in the past 30 minutes, (wife aggro soon) and while there are some jerks here (always were) for the most part I no longer have to "fear the PUG". The folks on this server are a real pleasure to game with.
That doesn't mean those games weren't badly designed exactly, you're having fun with friends, that is vastly different than having fun with the game itself. That is the contrast between old games and new as I see it. With a couple exceptions most old games would be considered barren if it were not for the players that provided that experience. The only exceptions IMO are SWG and UO, as they truly offered a game experience you don't really find today outside of EVE (open ended approach, skill based, player run experiences)..
DAOC on the other hand even in 2002-2003, was extremely archaic in comparison, it just had a fun PVP set up that worked well for Guild/alliance based fighting. Moving to SWG after was like a godsend as there was more to enjoy about it than just the RvR... My guild never looked back, even after they changed the controls and updated the graphics.
Today games like it or not, are about the game providing the overall experience, not players. They're better games for it IMO, yet they're worse player run experiences, if they have any player run experience to them at all. SWTOR as an example is all about the game's provided experience, you really don't need others to experience the bread and butter of the game.
With the right group anything can be fun, like kicking a can around.... that doesn't make kicking a can a great game...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I honestly can go to any mmorpg guild chat and ask them how they think about mmorpg today, and no one would care for things like the OP said.
Maybe people who are happy with mmorpg are just playing mmorpg. While those that grown tired of mmorpg goes to forum complaining. That's the way I see things.
And if you ask me the thing so hard about mmorpg is everyone want the different thing. For example if you ask on the forum for people to name their top 3 favorite mmorpg, you can see the answer is all so different. So that's pretty much to me is the problem with majority of the complaint on the forum.
The more things change the more they stay the same. 40 years from now people will post about how much better things were in the old days back in 2017. Your focus determines your reality.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The more things change the more they stay the same. 40 years from now people will post about how much better things were in the old days back in 2017. Your focus determines your reality.
Well, this is oblivious BUT: The point is clear what I was driving at in the OP. Things were taken away from us.
You could call it for the better, and your safety. or You could call it to make the 1% richer, and they don't really care about your safety.
The point has nothing to do with the good old days !!!
The more things change the more they stay the same. 40 years from now people will post about how much better things were in the old days back in 2017. Your focus determines your reality.
Well, this is oblivious BUT: The point is clear what I was driving at in the OP. Things were taken away from us.
You could call it for the better, and your safety. or You could call it to make the 1% richer, and they don't really care about your safety.
The point has nothing to do with the good old days !!!
Nothing was taken "from us" - things just change over time.
Change is inevitable.
This is a victim mentality - when you look at events as having some imaginary collective evil that's "taking things" from us.
Is time evil to you? - as you could say that "time takes everything" from everyone - health, wealth, heck lives?
But in reality - it's just how it is, in time everything will be destroyed and gone - all traces of humanity will be erased, because that's how it is.
Change just IS - don't look at it as "things taken from me"
Your just playing the "your negative, and DMKano is a positive person" card to make your self look good
No, things went downhill for more profit less game !
The more things change the more they stay the same. 40 years from now people will post about how much better things were in the old days back in 2017. Your focus determines your reality.
Well, this is oblivious BUT: The point is clear what I was driving at in the OP. Things were taken away from us.
You could call it for the better, and your safety. or You could call it to make the 1% richer, and they don't really care about your safety.
The point has nothing to do with the good old days !!!
Oblivious......
You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
You look at games crafted with love and reverence for the Genre like Everquest, UO, Planetside, SWG and even up to Guild Wars 1 and then you compare them with games like SWTOR and Planetside 2 which were both clearly designed to harpoon your wallet and not your imagination.
I always go back to WoW in 2004 as the turning point for MMOs......Some see that as a good turn, others see it as a bad turn but the genre definitely changed at that point in late 2004.....Once companies saw the success that WoW had, the copycats came out in droves.....I thought WoW was a good but not great game as it felt too easy after playing harder games like EQ, UO, DAoC, and AO......
I haven't played a MMO seriously in a long time. So, I do disagree. I've actually gotten back into older retro style games. These new games are all flash, which is cool, but lack any sort of substance, which is not so cool.
It is obvious the OP lives in US. This is maybe the only country in the world where people believe the business and the market are highly effective. That is why the US have one of the worst health care or security systems, and many other social systems. And the most expensive for sure.
The market is not effective, it is driven by humans, cyclical, and full of disbalances. The US economy goes into recession every 7-8 years, but still people believe Or create conspiracy theories.
Also they believe the capitalism made US the most powerful country in the world. While the truth is that is a result of emigration, and geographic location. Like the companies, the countries compete. In Europe, as there are much more countries, the negative effect of the competition is much stronger.
Back to the games, the companies do not invest into the most profitable games, they invest into the games they believe will cost less and earn more. Meanwhile the developers usually want to make better games. It is an internal conflict in every game. The investors usually win. The OP is right - the MMORPGs in the past were something new and there were not proven marketing models. That is why the games were focused on the gameplay. Now the games are focused on the sales per player, so they cater the solo players, and minimize any possible negative experience, like competition with other players or a good AI. This is the worst WoW made, not the gameplay, but the marketing.
That does not mean there are not better marketing models, but they are not proven or popular.
You lost me at cost less... When companies are spending over 100 million to make some of these games, that statement is just silly. It would be cheaper to just throw out old school designs to accomplish that. No scripted content, no time spent on animating 1000's of lines of voice dialogue, no voice actors, etc.etc..etc...
lol @ the lol
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You lost me at cost less... When companies are spending over 100 million to make some of these games, that statement is just silly. It would be cheaper to just throw out old school designs to accomplish that. No scripted content, no time spent on animating 1000's of lines of voice dialogue, no voice actors, etc.etc..etc...
lol @ the lol
Indeed. Developers put a lot more effort into the PvE leveling experience today than in the past. That's not even debatable.
You lost me at cost less... When companies are spending over 100 million to make some of these games, that statement is just silly. It would be cheaper to just throw out old school designs to accomplish that. No scripted content, no time spent on animating 1000's of lines of voice dialogue, no voice actors, etc.etc..etc...
lol @ the lol
Indeed. They are highly ineffective. This may look silly to you, but that is how the business works. Any business. And you do not need voice actors, or any actors for a MMO game, because you know, there are players
I agree you don't need voice actors or any actors or even videos and cinematics of any kind. This is all catering to a solo game, and that my friends is not an mmo !
It is obvious the OP lives in US. This is maybe the only country in the world where people believe the business and the market are highly effective. That is why the US have one of the worst health care or security systems, and many other social systems. And the most expensive for sure.
The market is not effective, it is driven by humans, cyclical, and full of disbalances. The US economy goes into recession every 7-8 years, but still people believe Or create conspiracy theories.
Also they believe the capitalism made US the most powerful country in the world. While the truth is that is a result of emigration, and geographic location. Like the companies, the countries compete. In Europe, as there are much more countries, the negative effect of the competition is much stronger.
Back to the games, the companies do not invest into the most profitable games, they invest into the games they believe will cost less and earn more. Meanwhile the developers usually want to make better games. It is an internal conflict in every game. The investors usually win. The OP is right - the MMORPGs in the past were something new and there were not proven marketing models. That is why the games were focused on the gameplay. Now the games are focused on the sales per player, so they cater the solo players, and minimize any possible negative experience, like competition with other players or a good AI. This is the worst WoW made, not the gameplay, but the marketing.
That does not mean there are not better marketing models, but they are not proven or popular.
Why don't you save your commie propaganda for North Korea. A free market system may not be perfect but it beats the hell out of any alternatives I know of. It certainly is better than having government bureaucrats trying to micromanage everything (something we already have to much of even here).
Trying to blame the problems of MMOs on the fact that the companies making them are out to make money is just silly. If there was no money to be made making MMOs then nobody would be making any MMOs.
When I played SWG, WoW, and some other early MMO's it wasn't perfect. They had problems and complaints just like they do today. Pretty much the same issues and complaints about lack of grouping, forced grouping, forced pvp, bots, hacks, pk, P2W with some players using gold sellers, and leveling sites.
I remember the problems SWG went through being forced to launch before the came was complete, having to run everywhere because vehicles hadn't been added, and how the Bosses pushed the Devs to add information about how to become Jedi in order to increase player numbers in a game that was already doing well.
Still the same today. None are perfect and each have their good and bad points. It takes an extreme attitude to say zero games are good now and a few games were near perfection back then, imo.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The more things change the more they stay the same. 40 years from now people will post about how much better things were in the old days back in 2017. Your focus determines your reality.
Well, this is oblivious BUT: The point is clear what I was driving at in the OP. Things were taken away from us.
You could call it for the better, and your safety. or You could call it to make the 1% richer, and they don't really care about your safety.
The point has nothing to do with the good old days !!!
Nothing was taken "from us" - things just change over time.
Change is inevitable.
This is a victim mentality - when you look at events as having some imaginary collective evil that's "taking things" from us.
Is time evil to you? - as you could say that "time takes everything" from everyone - health, wealth, heck lives?
But in reality - it's just how it is, in time everything will be destroyed and gone - all traces of humanity will be erased, because that's how it is.
Change just IS - don't look at it as "things taken from me"
Your just playing the "your negative, and DMKano is a positive person" card to make your self look good
No, things went downhill for more profit less game !
And you are playing the desperate poor bitter old vet who can accept a hobby passed him by. So now he sits and cries about it on a random website in hopes to get approval from others.
When I played SWG, WoW, and some other early MMO's it wasn't perfect. They had problems and complaints just like they do today. Pretty much the same issues and complaints about lack of grouping, forced grouping, forced pvp, bots, hacks, pk, P2W with some players using gold sellers, and leveling sites.
I remember the problems SWG went through being forced to launch before the came was complete, having to run everywhere because vehicles hadn't been added, and how the Bosses pushed the Devs to add information about how to become Jedi in order to increase player numbers in a game that was already doing well.
Still the same today. None are perfect and each have their good and bad points. It takes an extreme attitude to say zero games are good now and a few games were near perfection back then, imo.
The way I see it we had 3 generations:
1- Player controlled everything 2- Player controlled with help of developers 3- Developer controls everything
At least generation 1 and 2 they were mmos. It's impossible to compare old technology to new.
Olddude: You know horse riding used to be about real horses and riding skills, but now they don't even use horses anymore but electric motorcycles and instead of wide open fields you ride in lanes.
Youngdude: I don't understand, I love riding my electrfied horse and the lanes protect me when I miss stear. Horse riding is great.
Olddude: But that is not horse riding. I would like to ride a real horse again.
Youngdude: You speak wierd words I can't comprehend Olddude. You are just stuck in the past. Horse riding has never been better.
Olddude: You know horse riding used to be about real horses and riding skills, but now they don't even use horses anymore but electric motorcycles and instead of wide open fields you ride in lanes.
Youngdude: I don't understand, I love riding my electrfied horse and the lanes protect me when I miss stear. Horse riding is great.
Olddude: But that is not horse riding. I would like to ride a real horse again.
Youngdude: You speak wierd words I can't comprehend Olddude. You are just stuck in the past. Horse riding has never been better.
How about this:
Olddude: We used to gather four families and go to the state park and have cook outs and swim while we drank beer and had fun !
Olddude: You know horse riding used to be about real horses and riding skills, but now they don't even use horses anymore but electric motorcycles and instead of wide open fields you ride in lanes.
Youngdude: I don't understand, I love riding my electrfied horse and the lanes protect me when I miss stear. Horse riding is great.
Olddude: But that is not horse riding. I would like to ride a real horse again.
Youngdude: You speak wierd words I can't comprehend Olddude. You are just stuck in the past. Horse riding has never been better.
How about this:
Olddude: We used to gather four families and go to the state park and have cook outs and swim while we drank beer and had fun !
Youngdude: What's a park ?
Other olddude: "I have too much grinding to do to leave the house, I'll just stay in my Mom's basement. DOH!, lost a level I'll be here even longer."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When I played SWG, WoW, and some other early MMO's it wasn't perfect. They had problems and complaints just like they do today. Pretty much the same issues and complaints about lack of grouping, forced grouping, forced pvp, bots, hacks, pk, P2W with some players using gold sellers, and leveling sites.
I remember the problems SWG went through being forced to launch before the came was complete, having to run everywhere because vehicles hadn't been added, and how the Bosses pushed the Devs to add information about how to become Jedi in order to increase player numbers in a game that was already doing well.
Still the same today. None are perfect and each have their good and bad points. It takes an extreme attitude to say zero games are good now and a few games were near perfection back then, imo.
The way I see it we had 3 generations:
1- Player controlled everything 2- Player controlled with help of developers 3- Developer controls everything
At least generation 1 and 2 they were mmos. It's impossible to compare old technology to new.
Maybe developer stop making those because they died.
You are right developer only cares about money, they know better it is pointless making games which can't even survive and they end up in a mess.
And I'm not insulting your taste of games and tell you how great games like wow, swtor, eso, gw2 is.... because no one is even funding any mmorpg at all.
Now all you can get are asian imports, and some low budget kick starter mmorpg. Because investor knows better to invest in single player or low budget mobile game instead.
Your post made me remember the early 80's and how different it was back then.
LOL, you should have seen the late 60s and 70s.
People huddled around their campfires, phones all had cords, read newspapers, listened to music on AM radio and 8 track tapes.
Games were played on boards, children didn't wear seat belts (no one did) or helmets and the TV news actually reported on the actual news. (though fake news existed even back then)
Sexually transmitted diseases were all curable (well except for pregnancy ) we carried pocket knives in school (legally), if you hit a teacher they would hit you back, and when you got home your parents were likely to do much worse.
it took 6 to 8 weeks to get something you ordered, they freak.
I just discussed this today with my daughter who was complaining about issues with an Amazon order.
Besides having to use a "corded'" phone and "allow 6-8 weeks for delivery" returns were a nightmare.
She was aghast.
But we did have the "Green Stamp" store
ha .... I still have a rotary phone..... its a thing of beauty ...
Maybe developer stop making those because they died.
You are right developer only cares about money, they know better it is pointless making games which can't even survive and they end up in a mess.
It is more complicated then that, publishers tend to stick to a specific thing until something else is proven to earn lots of money.
Notch would never have gotten funding for Minecraft from any of the regular publishing houses, unknown concept, unknown guy. Now things are different, Valve begged him to come to work for them since he become successful and if someone comes to EA (or whatever publisher) with a similar concept it is way easier to get funding now.
Publishers certainly like money, and they prefer safe money. They will rarely fund an unknown concept by an unknown person.
As for them making games similar to Wow instead of UO, EQ or other older games they all went for the concept they assume will maximize profits.
But that doesn't mean a successful MMO must be like Wow , something very different but fun probably will sell better since there already is a Wow. For a publisher to buy the concept you do need someone like Kaplan, Strain or Van Caneghem (if you don't recognize the last guy it isn't that strange but he made many hit games including heroes of might and magic and started Trion), someone who provenly made successful top earning games in the past. Otherwise you need alternative funding, no larger publisher today would gamble on something new and different otherwise.
It is 100% certain that some rather different MMO concept would earn tons of cash, the question is just how those concept would look. And even with a good concept you need funding and a good team to turn a good idea into a top game. Or you could just play safe, do what everyone else do and get 5 times your invested money back. Most different projects fail, be that lack of funding, not good enough team or just not good enough ideas and the majority of large companies prefer safe money.
Comments
DAOC on the other hand even in 2002-2003, was extremely archaic in comparison, it just had a fun PVP set up that worked well for Guild/alliance based fighting. Moving to SWG after was like a godsend as there was more to enjoy about it than just the RvR... My guild never looked back, even after they changed the controls and updated the graphics.
Today games like it or not, are about the game providing the overall experience, not players. They're better games for it IMO, yet they're worse player run experiences, if they have any player run experience to them at all. SWTOR as an example is all about the game's provided experience, you really don't need others to experience the bread and butter of the game.
With the right group anything can be fun, like kicking a can around.... that doesn't make kicking a can a great game...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maybe people who are happy with mmorpg are just playing mmorpg. While those that grown tired of mmorpg goes to forum complaining. That's the way I see things.
And if you ask me the thing so hard about mmorpg is everyone want the different thing. For example if you ask on the forum for people to name their top 3 favorite mmorpg, you can see the answer is all so different. So that's pretty much to me is the problem with majority of the complaint on the forum.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well, this is oblivious BUT:
The point is clear what I was driving at in the OP. Things were taken away from us.
You could call it for the better, and your safety.
or
You could call it to make the 1% richer, and they don't really care about your safety.
The point has nothing to do with the good old days !!!
Your just playing the "your negative, and DMKano is a positive person" card to make your self look good
No, things went downhill for more profit less game !
Oblivious......
You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
lol @ the lol
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why don't you save your commie propaganda for North Korea. A free market system may not be perfect but it beats the hell out of any alternatives I know of. It certainly is better than having government bureaucrats trying to micromanage everything (something we already have to much of even here).
Trying to blame the problems of MMOs on the fact that the companies making them are out to make money is just silly. If there was no money to be made making MMOs then nobody would be making any MMOs.
I remember the problems SWG went through being forced to launch before the came was complete, having to run everywhere because vehicles hadn't been added, and how the Bosses pushed the Devs to add information about how to become Jedi in order to increase player numbers in a game that was already doing well.
Still the same today. None are perfect and each have their good and bad points. It takes an extreme attitude to say zero games are good now and a few games were near perfection back then, imo.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The way I see it we had 3 generations:
1- Player controlled everything
2- Player controlled with help of developers
3- Developer controls everything
At least generation 1 and 2 they were mmos. It's impossible to compare old technology to new.
Youngdude: I don't understand, I love riding my electrfied horse and the lanes protect me when I miss stear. Horse riding is great.
Olddude: But that is not horse riding. I would like to ride a real horse again.
Youngdude: You speak wierd words I can't comprehend Olddude. You are just stuck in the past. Horse riding has never been better.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
How about this:
Olddude: We used to gather four families and go to the state park and have cook outs and swim while we drank beer and had fun !
Youngdude: What's a park ?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are right developer only cares about money, they know better it is pointless making games which can't even survive and they end up in a mess.
And I'm not insulting your taste of games and tell you how great games like wow, swtor, eso, gw2 is.... because no one is even funding any mmorpg at all.
Now all you can get are asian imports, and some low budget kick starter mmorpg. Because investor knows better to invest in single player or low budget mobile game instead.
Notch would never have gotten funding for Minecraft from any of the regular publishing houses, unknown concept, unknown guy. Now things are different, Valve begged him to come to work for them since he become successful and if someone comes to EA (or whatever publisher) with a similar concept it is way easier to get funding now.
Publishers certainly like money, and they prefer safe money. They will rarely fund an unknown concept by an unknown person.
As for them making games similar to Wow instead of UO, EQ or other older games they all went for the concept they assume will maximize profits.
But that doesn't mean a successful MMO must be like Wow , something very different but fun probably will sell better since there already is a Wow. For a publisher to buy the concept you do need someone like Kaplan, Strain or Van Caneghem (if you don't recognize the last guy it isn't that strange but he made many hit games including heroes of might and magic and started Trion), someone who provenly made successful top earning games in the past. Otherwise you need alternative funding, no larger publisher today would gamble on something new and different otherwise.
It is 100% certain that some rather different MMO concept would earn tons of cash, the question is just how those concept would look. And even with a good concept you need funding and a good team to turn a good idea into a top game. Or you could just play safe, do what everyone else do and get 5 times your invested money back. Most different projects fail, be that lack of funding, not good enough team or just not good enough ideas and the majority of large companies prefer safe money.