HERE IS MY FINAL ANSWER TO THE QUESTION I POSED IN THIS THREAD:
BECAUSE NO MMORPG HAS EVER IMPLEMENTED PVP CORRECTLY.
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Sounds to me like you should be "speaking to someone"
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
When you make an mmo and you think you can't "do it right" you can opt not to do it at all. I'm going to bet that those people who are making mmo's think they are doing it right or at least know what goes into designing pvp systems and do their best. If you think you can do better then by all means "do better", I'm sure you would have a lucrative careeer.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
Not even sure what to say about this one but "so what", why can't an mmo have "wolves or criminals"? if it's an open pvp game? Or heck, even if it isn't. There are also some horrendous pve players out there who love messing with others, especially because there is no recourse against them. Bad people are just bad people.
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
First of all, don't play games where you think you can be "abused". Secondly, developers do care and if they find a player is actually being harassed they will intervene. However I strongly suspect you are just playing the wrong games. This is not to say that there aren't horrid people out there but my experience is that these people will eventually be removed if they don't toe the line.
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Again, if you think you can do it better then do it. Otherwise I'm going to guess that it's a difficult task even if the developers think they "have it" and that it's far more complicated than players realize. Especially when they sit in an "armchair developer" spot without anything on the line other than to voice opinions.
I didn't say people shouldn't be able to act like wolves or criminals in games. But I do believe there should be potential meaningful consequences for such behavior built into the game.
Yes, plenty of people in purely PvE settings behave badly as well.
The PvP systems are often designed in such a way that it makes it incredibly easy for players to abuse other players. Why are you allowed to kill the same player-character multiple times in a row? (for example)
I think when EQ and WoW first put PvP into their games, they allowed for people to attack 8 levels up or down (maybe 4 in EQ2 if I remember, right). Why allow that? Why allow for a level 28 to attack a level 20, or even for a level 24 to attack a level 20? And even if they're on the same level, one character might have all fable or epic gear, while the other only has legendary or rare. If you know you have such massive level and gear disparity in terms of the power of player-characters, why would you allow people who have no chance of winning to be preyed upon by those that can easily crush them? Neverwinter has Item Level (formerly Gear Score), but they still don't use it to queue by approximate Item Level in PvP for some reason. But if Neverwinter can do it, why can't more games have such scores to determine the power level of characters? Why can't that score dictate who you can fight and who you can't? Why do we need to allow gods to crush ants in PvP? Or why do we need to allow giants to slay children?
If I was a good programmer, I could totally do better. It's really not that hard to make something fair and competitive.
I agree with your conclusion. The reason I started this thread is because people kept asking me to explain to them why they would ever want to play a game with open pvp in another thread I started. I think they assume that I want to play pvp in a game that is designed the way the vast majority of mmorpgs are with vertical level and gear progression. But I don't. PvP just doesn't really work well in such games. People seem to think that vertical level and gear progression is what defines mmorpgs as a genre. Well, no, actually it doesn't.
An MMORPG only needs to have five characteristics: Massively Multi-player Online Role- Playing Game
Unfortunately, most of the games that call themselves mmorpgs are largely lacking in the most important category:
Unfortunately, most of the games that call themselves mmorpgs are largely lacking in the most important category:
ROLE-PLAYING
Role playing in RPG doesn't actually mean you have to role play. A few MMO's have separate RP servers so they could respect the game lore with non lore friendly names etc.
But creating a back story or taking on a different personality isn't a requirement.
Most of the best RPGs of all time never required you to role play.
Some gamers actually role play in non RPGs. Look at Rooster Teeth with their Red vs Blue Halo series.
The only thing stopping people from RP in games is not game mechanics, it's a lack of an imagination.
People even RP with board games such as Monopoly and Cluedo.
Unfortunately, most of the games that call themselves mmorpgs are largely lacking in the most important category:
ROLE-PLAYING
Role playing in RPG doesn't actually mean you have to role play. A few MMO's have separate RP servers so they could respect the game lore with non lore friendly names etc.
But creating a back story or taking on a different personality isn't a requirement.
Most of the best RPGs of all time never required you to role play.
Some gamers actually role play in non RPGs. Look at Rooster Teeth with their Red vs Blue Halo series.
The only thing stopping people from RP in games is not game mechanics, it's a lack of an imagination.
People even RP with board games such as Monopoly and Cluedo.
In a pvp game, it is very difficult to role play mainly because the pvpers take specific joy in interfering with their role play by doing everything they can to destroy any role play event. I was a councilor in UO and the GMs actually banned some guilds because they specifically targeted these events and were complete jerks about it. They were asked to stop multiple times and just ignored the pleas. The role players expected to be attacked, that was part of the role play, the problem was that these events were just destroyed by these guild members, there only intent was to make sure the event was a major failure.
Just because a game is pvp based does not excuse you from constantly being a jerk.
Because that means all of your hardships and time leveling up your character, farming materials and acquiring better equips and weapon do not pays off. Maybe there's something wrong in what I do during the process or I lack experience playing that game and it really pissed me off
Thrill? and yet PVP in MMO's is often determined by levels and gear, dying from such an outcome is hardly thrilling, though if you were dying while challenging a dungeon, or exploring a new area, yeah, i can see how that can have a certain 'thrill' to it, but that is more likely to be experienced playing MMO's alongside others, not against.
Purely gear or level driven PVP isn't much fun, true. But there's plenty of games where the gear is easy enough to get and max level is a matter of a few days - and also (very few) games where skill actually matters.
Because MMORPG PvP generally involves ganking. It isn't like a multiplayer FPS where the mutual agreement between all players is to help or kill another player. Even in a PvPvE FPS like Titanfall, the priority is to kill players, not the mobs.
PvP in MMORPGs is like being on a race track where the vast majority are there to beat their own lap times. Then you have the occasional jackass trying to "win the time attack" by racing, blocking, and dive bombing other racers just minding their own business.
Design an MMORPG centered around PvP, like EvE Online, and it is fine because that is what we expect. However, when you design a PvE MMORPG with PvP tacked on ...well, we're back in the race track situation.
Unfortunately, most of the games that call themselves mmorpgs are largely lacking in the most important category:
ROLE-PLAYING
Role playing in RPG doesn't actually mean you have to role play. A few MMO's have separate RP servers so they could respect the game lore with non lore friendly names etc.
But creating a back story or taking on a different personality isn't a requirement.
Most of the best RPGs of all time never required you to role play.
Some gamers actually role play in non RPGs. Look at Rooster Teeth with their Red vs Blue Halo series.
The only thing stopping people from RP in games is not game mechanics, it's a lack of an imagination.
People even RP with board games such as Monopoly and Cluedo.
Definition of role-playing
:
an activity in which people do and say things while pretending to be
If you aren't actually role-playing in a game, then it isn't actually a role-playing game. Hardly anyone role-plays in an mmorpg because the game itself offers you no incentives to do so. There is no requirement to do so, there is hardly any reason to do so, and usually absolutely no benefit to doing so whatsoever. Whereas in a pencil-and-paper role-playing game, a Dungeon/Game Master might penalize a player for not role-playing their character.
If so-called mmorpgs were designed to give players the ability to actually effect and change the virtual world around them, that would be a good step in the right direction. If players could also attain positions of power, fame, and influence within the game world that had any real consequence or meaning, that would be another. If there are meaningful consequences and rewards for actions, such as we find in the real world, players can have a lot more freedom in any given game world. There might be more lawless and chaotic areas in a game world where criminals are able to operate more freely, certainly. But the idea that anyone can steal and murder anywhere without any fear of punishment is crazy. Without law and order at least in some places in the world, there would be no freedom. Definitely not for people whose principal desire is to live in peace. In a total state of anarchy or chaos, criminals, wolves, and tyrants always rise up to establish their own brutal form of law.
If a game world were designed to be more like the real world, that would be one of the most important initial steps toward creating a true role-playing game online.
I think we've had enough of World of Warcraft and all its bastard children. And while Ultima Online had some good ideas in its time, it was still nowhere near what a real role-playing game should be.
Here is my take on things. The main problem with PvP is that it attracts too many people that are not there to play a game, they are there purely to kill people and feel powerful doing so.
That is why in MOBA's/Arena battle style games, we have a bunch of people using Aim-bots an other programs, that is why people Tea-bag, that is why they trash talk, etc. etc. These players are not logging in to enjoy the game as it is designed to be played, they are not there for the challenge, or the Love of the game. They are playing for solely for a feeling of power, and will do anything to obtain it, cheat, hack, abuse anyone and anything, just so they can feel like winners.
There is no way to change this kind of person, and PvP games attract them, the more advantages they can get, from cheats/hacks, and the more exclusive they are to them, (IE: The harder they are for a normal player to get them) the more they will gravitate to that game.
Equally so, the more victims normal players that play the game, the more they will come to it, just to gank and bully them. Because they seek that feeling of power, it's an aphrodisiac to them, and they will do anything to get it.
See, Games like Mortal Online don't fail simply because they are open-world-PvP, they fail because the people that want to feel powerful via PvP drive out the people looking to play and enjoy the other parts of the game, and eventually all that is left is gankers and bullies.. who.. as irony would have it, often can't stand each other.
As for getting killed, I just played an MOBA for the last hour, I don't mind dying to the honest players, the people like me, that are looking to enjoy the game and play it as intended.
Good luck getting them to log into some Open-World-Gank-fest.
OP doesn't make sense lol. "...GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE...?"
Just LOL'ed again.
I guess in your mind when you kill someone its fair and competitive, but not the way around. Amirite?
No, I have rarely played pvp in mmorpgs because I know they are not designed to be fair and competitive. It is fair and competitive if I have a reasonable chance to kill any other single player that attacks me. And any other single player has a reasonable chance to kill me if I attack them. Unless, of course, I am outnumbered or ambushed or surprised or attacked from behind or attacked/sniped from a distance. But all of those things can happen in real life, so I'm okay with that.
Here is my take on things. The main problem with PvP is that it attracts too many people that are not there to play a game, they are there purely to kill people and feel powerful doing so.
That is why in MOBA's/Arena battle style games, we have a bunch of people using Aim-bots an other programs, that is why people Tea-bag, that is why they trash talk, etc. etc. These players are not logging in to enjoy the game as it is designed to be played, they are not there for the challenge, or the Love of the game. They are playing for solely for a feeling of power, and will do anything to obtain it, cheat, hack, abuse anyone and anything, just so they can feel like winners.
There is no way to change this kind of person, and PvP games attract them, the more advantages they can get, from cheats/hacks, and the more exclusive they are to them, (IE: The harder they are for a normal player to get them) the more they will gravitate to that game.
Equally so, the more victims normal players that play the game, the more they will come to it, just to gank and bully them. Because they seek that feeling of power, it's an aphrodisiac to them, and they will do anything to get it.
See, Games like Mortal Online don't fail simply because they are open-world-PvP, they fail because the people that want to feel powerful via PvP drive out the people looking to play and enjoy the other parts of the game, and eventually all that is left is gankers and bullies.. who.. as irony would have it, often can't stand each other.
As for getting killed, I just played an MOBA for the last hour, I don't mind dying to the honest players, the people like me, that are looking to enjoy the game and play it as intended.
Good luck getting them to log into some Open-World-Gank-fest.
I agree with you. I would not play a game that was merely an open world gank-fest. I don't think any reasonable person would.
Whether you personally choose to role play or not has absolutely no bearing on weather the game is a role playing game or not.
You are taking in the role of that character playing them and they are progressing in the world.
For video games that is all a role playing game has ever meant.
Inventing a back story, thee and thou... Those are all personal decisions.
According to the way they've been made so far, it has no bearing. I really don't know why they call them role-playing games if there is no role-playing in them. What you described is not the true definition of role-playing. But if we want to use your definition, the primary role we have in most of these games is that of a soldier/mercenary. Adventurers don't normally just do what they're told. Neither do heroes. And heroes don't normally accept or receive rewards every time they perform a good deed. And what are you progressing toward exactly? What do you actually become in the game world? Just another max level character in a sea of max level characters who mainly just seek power for power's sake. There's very little you can do with that power once you gain it. Except to repeat the same sort of things that helped you attain that power in the first place.
If that is all role-playing in video games will ever mean, I quit.
You don't need to progress towards anything. You just need to evolve, get stronger. Everything else is just personal. Including what you want and your definition.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You don't need to progress towards anything. You just need to evolve, get stronger. Everything else is just personal.
Maybe you don't need to. I want to. If I don't have a real purpose and reason for anything I do, even in a game, I'm just wasting my time and/or money.
Cool. We'll just agree to disagree about what we want from mmorpgs, I suppose. Though the definition of role-playing I use is from the dictionary. I like using the original meanings of words. People keep trying to change meanings of words and terms nowadays. I don't like it. I speak English.
There you go making assumptions again. I did not state what I do or do not want. What someone personally wants and things, definitions, facts are are often two different things.
What I want more than anything in a MMO game is to not be forced to do anything including acting a certain way.
Not arguing with your dictionary use of the word. I'm stating you are assigning traits that are just what you personally want
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There you go making assumptions again. I did not state what I do or do not want. What someone personally wants and things, definitions, facts are are often two different things.
What I want more than anything in a MMO game is to not be forced to do anything including acting a certain way.
Not arguing with your dictionary use of the word. I'm stating you are signing traits that are just what you personally want
I apologize. I would like for us to be at peace and not argue anymore. I actually agree with your view of pvp in mmorpgs for the most part. PvP does not work well and is not fun in mmorpgs the way they are made now. I have sampled enough of PvP in mmorpgs I've played to know that I don't want to participate in their poorly designed, unfair, illogical, and non-competitive systems.
That's cool. Being forced to do anything sucks. When someone attempts to force us to do anything, it sucks. I think most humans agree that we want and enjoy freedom. Freedom of choice. I think we also like our choices to be meaningful.
As for role-playing in MMORPGs the way they mostly made now, it doesn't make sense to me that we even need to use that term for them. If we apply the definition you used in a previous post, "You are taking in the role of that character playing them and they are progressing in the world," then we could basically call any game from Super Mario Bros. to Metroid to Megaman to Resident Evil, etc. role-playing games.
And some people do. History however has shown that most (all?) rpgs also involve some kind of character progression.
If anyone in a game is role playing and I'm not, the game doesn't suddenly cease to be a role playing game. Same goes the other way. If no one is role playing and I am, the game itself hasn't changed.
edit - and there actually was a super mario rpg.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Thrill? and yet PVP in MMO's is often determined by levels and gear, dying from such an outcome is hardly thrilling, though if you were dying while challenging a dungeon, or exploring a new area, yeah, i can see how that can have a certain 'thrill' to it, but that is more likely to be experienced playing MMO's alongside others, not against.
And that is why PvP and vertical progression are horrible mechanics to be mixed.
They are only fun together for the person favored by the stat disparity, and only if that person is a little twerp who derives all of their enjoyment from exercising power over others and none of that enjoyment from actually challenging themselves and becoming insanely good at something.
Nobody losing to stat disparity, and nobody who actually enjoys a real challenge enjoys the way PvP currently works in MMOs.
It's not that it can't be good. It just isn't any good the way it is right now.
Comments
I didn't say people shouldn't be able to act like wolves or criminals in games. But I do believe there should be potential meaningful consequences for such behavior built into the game.
Yes, plenty of people in purely PvE settings behave badly as well.
The PvP systems are often designed in such a way that it makes it incredibly easy for players to abuse other players. Why are you allowed to kill the same player-character multiple times in a row? (for example)
I think when EQ and WoW first put PvP into their games, they allowed for people to attack 8 levels up or down (maybe 4 in EQ2 if I remember, right). Why allow that? Why allow for a level 28 to attack a level 20, or even for a level 24 to attack a level 20? And even if they're on the same level, one character might have all fable or epic gear, while the other only has legendary or rare. If you know you have such massive level and gear disparity in terms of the power of player-characters, why would you allow people who have no chance of winning to be preyed upon by those that can easily crush them? Neverwinter has Item Level (formerly Gear Score), but they still don't use it to queue by approximate Item Level in PvP for some reason. But if Neverwinter can do it, why can't more games have such scores to determine the power level of characters? Why can't that score dictate who you can fight and who you can't? Why do we need to allow gods to crush ants in PvP? Or why do we need to allow giants to slay children?
If I was a good programmer, I could totally do better. It's really not that hard to make something fair and competitive.
This is how you do it OP
seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the
griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no
recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want
that? Come on devs you can do better!"
Read more at
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/388587/please-tell-me-why-you-hate-pvp-so-much-i-just-dont-understand#aOzFwjTI77kcfeIT.99
I agree with your conclusion. The reason I started this thread is because people kept asking me to explain to them why they would ever want to play a game with open pvp in another thread I started. I think they assume that I want to play pvp in a game that is designed the way the vast majority of mmorpgs are with vertical level and gear progression. But I don't. PvP just doesn't really work well in such games. People seem to think that vertical level and gear progression is what defines mmorpgs as a genre. Well, no, actually it doesn't.
An MMORPG only needs to have five characteristics:
Massively
Multi-player
Online
Role-
Playing
Game
Unfortunately, most of the games that call themselves mmorpgs are largely lacking in the most important category:
ROLE-PLAYING
Role playing in RPG doesn't actually mean you have to role play. A few MMO's have separate RP servers so they could respect the game lore with non lore friendly names etc.
But creating a back story or taking on a different personality isn't a requirement.
Most of the best RPGs of all time never required you to role play.
Some gamers actually role play in non RPGs. Look at Rooster Teeth with their Red vs Blue Halo series.
The only thing stopping people from RP in games is not game mechanics, it's a lack of an imagination.
People even RP with board games such as Monopoly and Cluedo.
In a pvp game, it is very difficult to role play mainly because the pvpers take specific joy in interfering with their role play by doing everything they can to destroy any role play event. I was a councilor in UO and the GMs actually banned some guilds because they specifically targeted these events and were complete jerks about it. They were asked to stop multiple times and just ignored the pleas. The role players expected to be attacked, that was part of the role play, the problem was that these events were just destroyed by these guild members, there only intent was to make sure the event was a major failure.
Just because a game is pvp based does not excuse you from constantly being a jerk.
Follow my Blog at: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/123bentilador
Purely gear or level driven PVP isn't much fun, true. But there's plenty of games where the gear is easy enough to get and max level is a matter of a few days - and also (very few) games where skill actually matters.
PvP in MMORPGs is like being on a race track where the vast majority are there to beat their own lap times. Then you have the occasional jackass trying to "win the time attack" by racing, blocking, and dive bombing other racers just minding their own business.
Design an MMORPG centered around PvP, like EvE Online, and it is fine because that is what we expect. However, when you design a PvE MMORPG with PvP tacked on ...well, we're back in the race track situation.
If you aren't actually role-playing in a game, then it isn't actually a role-playing game. Hardly anyone role-plays in an mmorpg because the game itself offers you no incentives to do so. There is no requirement to do so, there is hardly any reason to do so, and usually absolutely no benefit to doing so whatsoever. Whereas in a pencil-and-paper role-playing game, a Dungeon/Game Master might penalize a player for not role-playing their character.:
an activity in which people do and say things while pretending to be
someone else or while pretending to be in a particular situation - from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/role-playing
If so-called mmorpgs were designed to give players the ability to actually effect and change the virtual world around them, that would be a good step in the right direction. If players could also attain positions of power, fame, and influence within the game world that had any real consequence or meaning, that would be another. If there are meaningful consequences and rewards for actions, such as we find in the real world, players can have a lot more freedom in any given game world. There might be more lawless and chaotic areas in a game world where criminals are able to operate more freely, certainly. But the idea that anyone can steal and murder anywhere without any fear of punishment is crazy. Without law and order at least in some places in the world, there would be no freedom. Definitely not for people whose principal desire is to live in peace. In a total state of anarchy or chaos, criminals, wolves, and tyrants always rise up to establish their own brutal form of law.
If a game world were designed to be more like the real world, that would be one of the most important initial steps toward creating a true role-playing game online.
I think we've had enough of World of Warcraft and all its bastard children. And while Ultima Online had some good ideas in its time, it was still nowhere near what a real role-playing game should be.
Just LOL'ed again.
I guess in your mind when you kill someone its fair and competitive, but not the way around. Amirite?
That is why in MOBA's/Arena battle style games, we have a bunch of people using Aim-bots an other programs, that is why people Tea-bag, that is why they trash talk, etc. etc. These players are not logging in to enjoy the game as it is designed to be played, they are not there for the challenge, or the Love of the game. They are playing for solely for a feeling of power, and will do anything to obtain it, cheat, hack, abuse anyone and anything, just so they can feel like winners.
There is no way to change this kind of person, and PvP games attract them, the more advantages they can get, from cheats/hacks, and the more exclusive they are to them, (IE: The harder they are for a normal player to get them) the more they will gravitate to that game.
Equally so, the more victims normal players that play the game, the more they will come to it, just to gank and bully them. Because they seek that feeling of power, it's an aphrodisiac to them, and they will do anything to get it.
See, Games like Mortal Online don't fail simply because they are open-world-PvP, they fail because the people that want to feel powerful via PvP drive out the people looking to play and enjoy the other parts of the game, and eventually all that is left is gankers and bullies.. who.. as irony would have it, often can't stand each other.
As for getting killed, I just played an MOBA for the last hour, I don't mind dying to the honest players, the people like me, that are looking to enjoy the game and play it as intended.
Good luck getting them to log into some Open-World-Gank-fest.
You are taking in the role of that character playing them and they are progressing in the world.
For video games that is all a role playing game has ever meant.
Inventing a back story, thee and thou... Those are all personal decisions.
No, I have rarely played pvp in mmorpgs because I know they are not designed to be fair and competitive. It is fair and competitive if I have a reasonable chance to kill any other single player that attacks me. And any other single player has a reasonable chance to kill me if I attack them. Unless, of course, I am outnumbered or ambushed or surprised or attacked from behind or attacked/sniped from a distance. But all of those things can happen in real life, so I'm okay with that.
I agree with you. I would not play a game that was merely an open world gank-fest. I don't think any reasonable person would.
According to the way they've been made so far, it has no bearing. I really don't know why they call them role-playing games if there is no role-playing in them. What you described is not the true definition of role-playing. But if we want to use your definition, the primary role we have in most of these games is that of a soldier/mercenary. Adventurers don't normally just do what they're told. Neither do heroes. And heroes don't normally accept or receive rewards every time they perform a good deed. And what are you progressing toward exactly? What do you actually become in the game world? Just another max level character in a sea of max level characters who mainly just seek power for power's sake. There's very little you can do with that power once you gain it. Except to repeat the same sort of things that helped you attain that power in the first place.
If that is all role-playing in video games will ever mean, I quit.
Maybe you don't need to. I want to. If I don't have a real purpose and reason for anything I do, even in a game, I'm just wasting my time and/or money.
Cool. We'll just agree to disagree about what we want from mmorpgs, I suppose. Though the definition of role-playing I use is from the dictionary. I like using the original meanings of words. People keep trying to change meanings of words and terms nowadays. I don't like it. I speak English.
What I want more than anything in a MMO game is to not be forced to do anything including acting a certain way.
Not arguing with your dictionary use of the word. I'm stating you are assigning traits that are just what you personally want
I apologize. I would like for us to be at peace and not argue anymore. I actually agree with your view of pvp in mmorpgs for the most part. PvP does not work well and is not fun in mmorpgs the way they are made now. I have sampled enough of PvP in mmorpgs I've played to know that I don't want to participate in their poorly designed, unfair, illogical, and non-competitive systems.
That's cool. Being forced to do anything sucks. When someone attempts to force us to do anything, it sucks. I think most humans agree that we want and enjoy freedom. Freedom of choice. I think we also like our choices to be meaningful.
As for role-playing in MMORPGs the way they mostly made now, it doesn't make sense to me that we even need to use that term for them. If we apply the definition you used in a previous post, "You are taking in the role of that character playing them and they are progressing in the world," then we could basically call any game from Super Mario Bros. to Metroid to Megaman to Resident Evil, etc. role-playing games.
If anyone in a game is role playing and I'm not, the game doesn't suddenly cease to be a role playing game. Same goes the other way. If no one is role playing and I am, the game itself hasn't changed.
edit - and there actually was a super mario rpg.
And that is why PvP and vertical progression are horrible mechanics to be mixed.
They are only fun together for the person favored by the stat disparity, and only if that person is a little twerp who derives all of their enjoyment from exercising power over others and none of that enjoyment from actually challenging themselves and becoming insanely good at something.
Nobody losing to stat disparity, and nobody who actually enjoys a real challenge enjoys the way PvP currently works in MMOs.
It's not that it can't be good. It just isn't any good the way it is right now.