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PvP/PvE and the mmorpg community
FaunNoe
Member UncommonPosts: 56
There is nothing wrong with PvP/PvE, the issue is with the community. Some/Most of you are not realizing the role playing aspect of an mmoRPG. You believe in separation or one being of less/softer than the other. All this does is limit the roles to be played in an mmoRPG. We are not all equal/the same and everyone needs to understand that and accept it. Throwing around your opinions and desires will not bend anyone (who is not of weak mind).
Has anyone wondered where the proof of all of this PvP savagery is? Of all the mmorpgs I've played, never have I run into this constant ganking and high levels roaming around to kill low levels situation(s). I've never had any friends run into these problems either. I mean once or twice? Maybe three times tops? The times I've been in these situations 1 of 2 things always happened. #1: The gankers/high level players either leave to go killing somewhere else for the reason of #2. #2: People come and kill those who bring about grief.
I PERSONALLY have been one of those players that PvE lovers hate and it always ends the same way....hunted down and killed. Not once have I been able to just play the game normally forever killing lower levels and the weak. It doesn't happen.....That is what makes mmorpgs so great, the huge scale of possibilities. The community....Bad guys kill and are killed in return. FUN
Has anyone ever wondered where the proof of all of this happy-go-lucky PvE happiness is? If anything, PvE grief is the most annoying especially when you want those levels so you can get those cool skills and that nice looking armor. PvE grief doesn't disappear...they are not hunted down...a big popular clan takes the best hunting spot and stays there all day. If there is no PvP you can't kill them. You can only watch and then come onto mmorpg.com and start a discussion about how you HATE that the biggest clans in the game take all of the best hunting spots and you can't do ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Then we can read about how much you wish you could kill them. When I think about it, many PvP situations I've been in had to do with people trying to steal our leveling spot or vice versa lol.
OH, one last PvE thing that I just remembered that is completely ANNOYING...when a high level attacks a monster completely out of your league and runs into your group with the monster chasing him. If someone in your group hits an AOE or attacks it directly by accident or are attacked by the monster's AOE skill(or turns around and beats you all to death) while it's trying to hit the high level,You'll all die and when you come back...your spot is taken by some other group. Geez, that is just....ugh.
At the end of the day though, mmorpgs are great fun.(The least limitation the better)
Has anyone wondered where the proof of all of this PvP savagery is? Of all the mmorpgs I've played, never have I run into this constant ganking and high levels roaming around to kill low levels situation(s). I've never had any friends run into these problems either. I mean once or twice? Maybe three times tops? The times I've been in these situations 1 of 2 things always happened. #1: The gankers/high level players either leave to go killing somewhere else for the reason of #2. #2: People come and kill those who bring about grief.
I PERSONALLY have been one of those players that PvE lovers hate and it always ends the same way....hunted down and killed. Not once have I been able to just play the game normally forever killing lower levels and the weak. It doesn't happen.....That is what makes mmorpgs so great, the huge scale of possibilities. The community....Bad guys kill and are killed in return. FUN
Has anyone ever wondered where the proof of all of this happy-go-lucky PvE happiness is? If anything, PvE grief is the most annoying especially when you want those levels so you can get those cool skills and that nice looking armor. PvE grief doesn't disappear...they are not hunted down...a big popular clan takes the best hunting spot and stays there all day. If there is no PvP you can't kill them. You can only watch and then come onto mmorpg.com and start a discussion about how you HATE that the biggest clans in the game take all of the best hunting spots and you can't do ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Then we can read about how much you wish you could kill them. When I think about it, many PvP situations I've been in had to do with people trying to steal our leveling spot or vice versa lol.
OH, one last PvE thing that I just remembered that is completely ANNOYING...when a high level attacks a monster completely out of your league and runs into your group with the monster chasing him. If someone in your group hits an AOE or attacks it directly by accident or are attacked by the monster's AOE skill(or turns around and beats you all to death) while it's trying to hit the high level,You'll all die and when you come back...your spot is taken by some other group. Geez, that is just....ugh.
At the end of the day though, mmorpgs are great fun.(The least limitation the better)
Comments
With all that said now, I don't mind pvp at all in games where pvp is the point of the game and it is built around it. The problem comes is when a developer tries to get greedy and do this I will have everything and basically screws up everything in return. Things like open world free for all loot is actually a lot smaller niche that many want to accept. That is the pvp that many pve players do not want. And a game like that should not be built around a pve system of gear treadmills, etc...
Have you every stopped and tried to figure out why so many pvp games don't last? How many of them make it past a couple years at most before they are ghost towns? The answer to that is very few. A main reason for that is that the people that enjoy questing, role playing, etc...do not enjoy griefers, full loot, ect...
Just look at the games that want you to pve to max then all the sudden they are pvp games those are the worst offenders. Overall developers need to pick a style and stick to it and do it good. If they do they most likely will have a great game that will last, be it pvp or pve. Stop trying to say we are going to have everything. If you want to make a pvp game make a pvp game where everything revolves around the pvp aspect, to hell with gear treadmills, vertical leveling, ect....If you want to make a pve game make a pve game where everything revolves around the pve aspect, to hell with pvp altogether except maybe for some arenas which don't have a single effect outside of them, ect...
Furthermore, he did not even say one word to me at all, lol. (It's kind of funny now, in a sadistic sort of way, looking back on it.) Also, that Shadow Knight was only one level or two higher than my Paladin (who had only quest gear). Yet I watched as my health points were basically sucked out by a vacuum every time. He must have been twinked (or else Shadow Knights were severely overpowered compared to Paladins in that game.)
Then a Troll (I don't know or remember which class) asked me if I wanted to fight back at the port. I told him no, but he proceeded to kill me twice in a row anyway. After that I deleted my character and remade him on a PvE server, never looking back. Eventually, I got him to max level (95 at the time). But endgame grind soured me fast. Especially after I maxed out a Troubadour because I learned that Paladins were the weakest tank in the game, and I wanted to be actually wanted or needed in a raid. Plus, Bard is my second favorite class after Paladin. Fighter and Thief may be tied for third place. But I still never raided in that game because, by that time, I could not stand the thought of grinding for one more day. Not even one more hour.
Anyway, I totally understand what you're saying. I talked to a woman in my guild on EQ2 who had played on a pvp server with her son in the past. She told me some of her most interesting pvp stories. But the way I want to make a game, the griefers/gankers, would usually, or at least often, have just as much chance of getting killed themselves whenever they sought to prey on someone. Even zergs would not find themselves to be safe from utter destruction and complete annihilation.
Btw, the game I want to make or see made is an open narrative, open world PvP/PvE Realm vs. Realm Sandbox. Without vertical level progression and without basically unlimited/infinite gear progression. Permanent death as well. Many other things. But details are in my other threads. I've said enough here for now.
Also, in real life it's very difficult for even two highly-skilled fighters to hit the same target at the same exact moment in a battle. Without killing or wounding or hitting each other on accident. Unless they're firing from range with some kind of missile weapon (whether gun, bow, or magic spell, etc.).
These are some good ideas.
ME: SWG was the best game ever. Everyone else: Yes.
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Good talk.
Boring as all hell and no new ideas. We need to disagree, it's how progress happens.
While I agree that the ganking is not as rampant as people would have us believe, it does happen and I have seen it quite a lot...from both sides of the equation. A lot more than 2 - 3 times. That is a laughable statement and brings to question how many PvP games you have actually played. Mostly irrelevant, but ganking happens, quite often. Yes, people at times will come and stick up for the lowbies. Sometimes they look on as if it was not their business. Again, I have been on both sides of this.
PvE is the same, it can be annoying having someone drag aggro on you, but it is not the end of the world. Usually, you can see it coming (if you don't play with your head on a swivel, you have bigger issues than being trained) especially in PvP games where you need to pay attention to what is going on around you. IF you don't you either like dying or as I suspect do not play many PvP games.
And finally my favorite. Do you want to psychoanalyze why people commit digital homicide on cartoons? I am guessing there is only one, maybe two people (I am not one of them, although I passed Psych 100, I am in no way qualified to talk about this) on these forums that could even conceive a test that could, without bias, prove or disprove the 'little person' or socially awkward stigma that goes along with people that enjoy these types of behavior in games. I suspect it is normal people, that just want to have a laugh and most of the time, when the victim gets annoyed and starts sending them hate mail, I bet they do laugh. Again, I have been on both sides of this, but I can't speak for anyone else on the topic. I feel like the whole social problems, psycho, whatever you want to attach to it, is more of a defense mechanism used by the person being ganked to make themselves feel better about the whole deal. Again, I can't quote any science to back this up, but it is my thought.
Anyway, there is plenty of proof out there, in quite a few games. I don't think it is as bad nor as good as most would want, but somewhere in the middle and it varies greatly from time zone to time zone and from game to game.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Manual aim means manually picking targets which means if your raid leader wants to call specific targets you need to pick out specific targets in the enemy ranks (this is not practical in large group combat.) And yeah in DFO I remember for battles we would go melee when numbers were against us and ranged when numbers were on our side because in melee you had a high chance of hitting allies while in ranged combat your attacks are more precise if you are practiced at it.
Equally so, the best PvP I ever dealt with was an MOBA, its clean, it's fun, and it's fair. A thousand times better then any PvP I have ever dealt with in the MMO community.
I looked up the acronym, sdsd, but I'm not sure which one exactly you may be using.
Is it so drunk or so sad?
For the record, I'm not either one.
Every time some one on MMORPG.com references "high level ganks" or being a "sociopath" with PvP I just think of propaganda from the 1950's... "Don't sit too close to the tv because it causes eye damage" everybody is so ready to believe this but will never realize how rare actual highlevel ganking occurs.
Propaganda...
If you don't like PvP MMORPGs, don't play a PvP MMORPG
If you don't like PvP Servers, don't play on a PvP Server
If you don't like PvP/PvE MMORPGs, don't play a PvP/PvE MMORPG
If you only like PvE MMORPGs, just play a PvE MMORPG
I like PvP, but I don't like unbalanced, unfair, non-competitive PvP. I don't like dominating people who stand no chance against me. I don't like being dominated by people against whom I stand no chance. Therefore, I do not play PvP in MMORPGs at this time.
Why? Because a system designed for PvE will never produce a balanced, fair, competitive PvP game.
There are three things that absolutely do not work for PvP:
1. Vertical Level Progression
2. Unlimited/Infinite Vertical Gear Progression
3. Unlimited Stat, Skill, and Ability Progression
There's a reason the vast majority of people in the world do not use Dungeons & Dragons or most any other pencil-and-paper PvE system to play a PvP game around the dinner table.
If a player can defeat or overpower someone just because he or she has played longer or paid more, it is not a PvP game. It is more than likely a gankfest. It may not always be, but it has a clear and present danger of being one for anyone in the game. Unless they're max level, max combat skills and powers, and/or equipped with BIS gear.
But that's only if you actually want to play Game of Thrones someday. If you're cool with just watching re-runs of it after the final episode of season 8 premieres sometime in 2018, then just ignore me.
IMHO.
Eldurian has some good ideas and insights as well.
Do you even PvP?
That's a serious question if you are going to call these kinds of behaviors propaganda. Let me cite just a few examples of how these behaviors are not myths:
1. Most high sec ganking corps in EVE are professional operations that are extremely experienced at killing and robbing people as they trade in high sec. To the point that we were fighting wars in low sec and when I suggested we go to high sec and kill war dec gate campers they talked about how it would be a waste of time because they are so well organized and good at what they do.
2. 75%+ of PvP experienced in newb areas in Darkfall is against players no newb would have any hope of beating. I encountered high level gankers roaming through with regularity until I moved out to a clan owned city.
3. Start a new account on ArcheAge, don't swipe, and tell me how long you have to play before the majority of people you are fighting are within 500 gearscore of your own. Go ahead and time and survey it for me.
I've been running anti-griefer groups in PvP MMOs for over a decade and I can tell you there has NEVER been a shortage of work. In some games as much as 75%+ of the population ends up being on our KOS like Darkfall. In other games like ArcheAge it's just every single veteran group in our faction. These problems are not imagined. The Open World PvP community is thick with griefers and people who will prey upon anyone weaker to make a coin. Those who don't are generally either newer groups or the exception to the rule.
Yes. Null sec is peaceful. Clan cities in Darkfall were pretty chill. The ocean is much calmer than people think it is in ArcheAge. But the areas where new players tend to congregate are highly dangerous, to the point of being nearly constant battlegrounds sometimes.
If I had really been serious about wanting to play PvP back then, maybe I would have put more effort into figuring that out after my experience in the Butcherblock Mtns. But PvP was not really my reason for playing EQ2 at the time. Honestly, I was just looking to escape reality. Bad things happening in my real life was why I started playing MMORPGs again.
Anyway, what I'm saying here is, looking back, there is a smarter way to play on a PvP server in EQ2. There are probably similar techniques you can use in other games. Though you may not have as many options in those that don't have as many different zones as EQ2.
Still, now that I fully realize exactly how well a real PvP/PvE MMORPG could work, if it was designed correctly, I don't think I missed out on anything much by not staying on the PvP server in EQ2.
I would much rather play the game I've been thinking and writing about than anything on the market right now. More than any game being developed as well. Though I am willing to try Crowfall, Life is Feudal, and possibly Chronicles of Elyria. If and when those three games are released.
MAGA
Darkfall's new launch is probably why we are seeing these topics. What? Cannot get people to play the game so people come here and start these topics in the guise of trying to intellectually argue the merits of PvP in games.
Honestly talking about roleplaying and trying to argue about that being the reason is about as convincing as Clinton being the reason he fired Comey.
Can't wait for Pantheon, I'll play on a total PVE server and the pvp people can play on that server, happy days all round.
Wouldn't you agree Op.
Of course, most of those kind of games have several design flaws at their core. I know how to make one that will actually function properly. One that will be fair and balanced.
Open World PVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG Without Vertical Level and Gear Progression
Open Narrative Realm vs. Realm*. Maybe even with action combat. Some reasonable vertical skill and ability progression, but without the ability to master many things and with permadeath. I have an idea of how to go about it, but I already posted a thread with some details and designs I would most likely prefer. I'll go ahead and say that I favor progression through the political/military/economic/social (cultural/legal)/agricultural/industrial/technological (and/or religious/magical)/territorial advancement of one's chosen Realm and the power/fame/influence/social status/knowledge/prosperity/perpetuation (strength of possibly inherited traits) of one's family line. Also the very real possibility of dying before succeeding to produce an heir and the demise of one's family line. Limited quality, quantity, and availability of resources (including food), items, and equipment (mundane or magical/holy/technological/scientific)
I would definitely prefer if Realms and Family Lines could decline, fail, and be destroyed. A world where nothing is certain, and there are no guarantees. Meaningful Opportunities, Risks, Rewards, and Consequences. Player-character (and possibly programmed NPC) choices and decisions have the very real possibility of effecting and changing the world. Constantly.
*I would like to have NPC Realms controlled by Artificial Intelligence and/or Dungeon/Game Masters (paid and with legal-and-binding contracts) as well.
PROGRESSION = ADVANCEMENT OF CHOSEN REALM, ADVANCEMENT/CONTINUATION OF ONE'S FAMILY ONE, AND IMPROVEMENT OF INDIVIDUAL SKILLS AND ABILITIES
Wealth, property (land), possessions, knowledge, and titles can be passed down through the family line. If your character manages to keep and store any somewhere relatively safe before they die. Titles earned would always stay within the family unless a liege-lord decided to strip them or your community/realm is conquered or destroyed.*
If you have no children, you have say a 50/50 chance of being able to play as a sibling of your original character, but you only get half of what you would if you played as one of your children.
Or you can just delete the family line and start over as the member of another family in the same community/realm.
Meanwhile, the same thing is happening within your community/realm and in many other player-run communities/realms and AI communities/realms.
Your idea immediately fails.
You are giving people vertical skill and ability progression, so that means power gaps. You want open world pvp, which means regular deaths.
So, right off the bat you are telling your players that they have to play it safe and avoid PvP in order to acquire their better skills / abilities, but as soon as there is any sort of time committment involved, people don't want to lose that effort and so permadeath will put people off ever engaging in pvp.
PvErs do make thread after thread complaining about PvP.
Granted, it is rare that they try to explain why they enjoy PvE, but the threads are full of complaints about class balancing, ganking, wasting resources on pvp instead of building new zones / stories / raids etc.
Not that I really care, the threads are fun to read and I enjoy PvE and PvP in my games. My general experience of these forums is that the threads started by PvErs tend to be more factually inaccurate and more self-centred, whilst the threads started by PvPers tend to come from an extremely small niche of the pvp community and almost always completely fail to articulate any meaningful point beyond "i want better pvp".