There is a variety of PvP content in Black Desert. There are two major events where all players and all guilds can participate: the Node War and Siege War. Any guild with at least 10 members online can join the warfare. The two keywords to succeed in the warfare are teamwork and strategy!
And then you just ask on a forum whether or not there is open pvp.
Why would he need to go to the forums? The Warfare page is pretty clear in informing him that the PvP is guild-based and opt-in. Unless the player joins a PvP guild, he will not be affected by PvP.
Because it's not well written. They touch upon open pvp but they are not as specific as he would like. This would be a red flag to me and I would want to get specifics before I purchased a game.
You and I are MMORPG veterans and can read between the lines. 15 years ago I was not as cynical and I would not have seen any red flags. The page is written in good, clear English so I would have taken it at face value and read it that the PvP was optional only for those who want to participate.
It is a classic conflict between the customer who wants clear information about the product and the advertiser who wants to present the product in the best way possible and will hide less desirable features with flowery language.
When WoW came out, I read the Blizzard pages about the game and I got a rather skewed picture of the game. Based on their description raiding seemed like an ad-hoc disorganized affair that happened once or twice per month. ie Onyxia shows up out of the blue and everyone who is logged in at the time can come to try kill her. The reality turned out much different.
Heck, some EVE advertising can make you think that the game has opt-in PvP.
Going to a game's forums before subscribing to the game is not 'normal'. Heck most of those forums are subscriber-only. It is beyond the level of research most people think they should need to do.
1. There's a lot more PvE'ers out there than PvP'ers. The more PvE'ers a MMO has, the healthier and, likely, more active it is. Pure PvP MMOs, or those with a greater PvP focus (particularly when it's open, unrestricted world PvP) don't tend to draw quite as large of crowds.
This is evidenced by the sheer number of PvE-centric MMOs versus purely PvP-centric MMOs. Further, those PvE MMOs that do introduce PvP typically do it in an arena setting, or otherwise on separate servers, etc. PvE'ers don't tend to want to deal with other players coming in to screw with them while they're questing. They want to do what they're doing, and be left alone.
2. PvE'ers = "sheep", with PvP'ers of course considering themselves "the wolves". The more "sheep" to hunt the happier the "wolves" will be. While there are some PvP'ers out there who truly want an actual *challenge* when they engage in PvP, many, many of them just want the cheap thrill of killing another player who had no chance of surviving or fighting back, and it's a bonus if they can get that player to whine about it.
I saw a post on the official TERA forums a while back where someone was complaining that it was too easy for weaker players to get away, and that the devs should implement more abilities to root or slow them so they could be ganked more easily. Not joking. They suggested that "the fun in it for the victim should be trying to escape", and it *couldn't* be as fun for the victim if they're able to get away so easily. The projection was off the charts.
They're effectively doing the equivalent of walking on to an Elementary school playground as a grown adult and beating the crap out of some kids, but for some reason, that makes them feel hardcore and awesome, especially considering how some of them will gloat and brag about how "badly they pwned" their victim.
In Lineage 2, I used to deliberately hang around lower level areas, starting towns and such, waiting for that type to show up. Just hanging out. They wouldn't dare attack me 'cause I was clearly the higher level, and stronger one in those situations. But... once I saw them go red on some new players who'd only barely taken their first few steps into the game, they were open game for me. I'd drop them and oh boy would the whining commence. I've had people who literally spent 15-20 minutes repeatedly ganking brand-new players, 20+ levels below them, say they were going to report me to a GM for "harassing them". The ones with the biggest mouths when they're on the dealing end tend to become the biggest cry-babies when the tables are turned on them. It's really quite funny, in a sad way.
You and I are MMORPG veterans and can read between the lines. 15 years ago I was not as cynical and I would not have seen any red flags. The page is written in good, clear English so I would have taken it at face value and read it that the PvP was optional only for those who want to participate.
It is a classic conflict between the customer who wants clear information about the product and the advertiser who wants to present the product in the best way possible and will hide less desirable features with flowery language.
When WoW came out, I read the Blizzard pages about the game and I got a rather skewed picture of the game. Based on their description raiding seemed like an ad-hoc disorganized affair that happened once or twice per month. ie Onyxia shows up out of the blue and everyone who is logged in at the time can come to try kill her. The reality turned out much different.
Heck, some EVE advertising can make you think that the game has opt-in PvP.
Going to a game's forums before subscribing to the game is not 'normal'. Heck most of those forums are subscriber-only. It is beyond the level of research most people think they should need to do.
Your point is well put and well taken.
Maybe knowing the landscape opens our eyes to things that others might not see.
I still think that the mention that any player may attack any other player anywhere in the game at any time during the node war period would at least inform a person that at some point the entire world becomes FFA pvp and from that point it would beg the question whether or not there are other times.
But thanks for your post, very well done.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Even if you guy are 100% right, and BDO wronged you horribly (perhaps by not sending you an email with a detailed description of what PvP was all about in their game), what do you hope to accomplish by complaining about it? Is this going to change mmorpgs for the better in the future? Will some wondrous improvement, advancement, or innovation be born from it?
Yes, I would hope that in the future MMO's are very honest about what kind of playing experience someone can expect from their game, especially regarding PvP, it's impact, and the conditions surrounding it.
PvP in MMO's a huge issue, one you have written many posts about, and the ginormous number of posts regarding it, show clearly this is not a "Secondary" consideration, and should not be treated as such.
Siege war and node wars to me sounds more like specific territories to fight over. Not open world PvP.
Edit - or guild based but still it doesn't tell me open world or ffa.(I don't know know if it is it not, never played, so just going by what you guys are saying)
I haven't played either, I was looking into playing it, and almost bought it, but thankfully I found out it was Open World PvP, before I wasted my money on it. Still it's cheesy how they dance the issue, and I had to find out on a Wiki, as opposed to the Game makers themselves saying it outright.
It sends up too many red flags when a Game Maker is not proud to announce exactly how their PvP system works... in my mind that screams "They screwed it up"
and Screwed up PvP in an MMO is not something I wanna deal with, but that is just me.
Siege war and node wars to me sounds more like specific territories to fight over. Not open world PvP.
Edit - or guild based but still it doesn't tell me open world or ffa.(I don't know know if it is it not, never played, so just going by what you guys are saying)
Yeah but they say that players taking part can attack any player any place in the world. That at least means that at certain points the game is ffa.
If they said that during node wars/sieges players could only be attacked in those zones or specifically areas, that would be another thing. And, if they said that, it wouldn't really raise any red flags as to whether or not there was ffa pvp at all.
It should be mentioned that their site says that there are "a variety of pvp activities for players" and that "two events where all player/guilds can participate are the node wars/sieges".
That begs the question as to what are the other pvp activities. I don't think they are hiding anything as they do say that there are times where the game becomes ffa pvp. I just think it's a poorly written/laid out site.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Now.. I actually have to look under "Warfare" .. and that's like majorly deceptive, because it looks like something I won't have to deal with, unless I want to. IE: I can simply not get involved in their whole Node Wars ting.
In fact, no were on the main pages, (the areas where they are trying to sell this game to you) do they tell you that "Yah, it's a PvP game, and you can't opt out"
If they hide it some place where I have to hunt down the info, that's a jerk move. They should put it in where they are trying to sell the game to me.
This is also why it's becoming harder and harder for games to sell B2P... players are losing their trust in the ads the game makers are showing them. If you game is about PvP.. own that like the ugly sweater it is.
There is a variety of PvP content in Black Desert. There are two major events where all players and all guilds can participate: the Node War and Siege War. Any guild with at least 10 members online can join the warfare. The two keywords to succeed in the warfare are teamwork and strategy!
And then you just ask on a forum whether or not there is open pvp.
This is what I'm talking about, players not making the smallest leap and asking one pertinent question.
They are not hiding anything. It's only because you require them to hit you in the face with it that you think they are not being up front.
I should also point out that life skilling can be an important way to make money and without it a player can fall behind. They don't come out and say that either.
Basically you dislike one aspect and expect a game to know there are people who "dislike it" and therefore they should have a large sign saying "Attention: if you hate open world pvp don't play this game".
No game is going to do that.
I'm gonna openly admit, that had by far to be the dumbest post I have ever read on this topic so far.
"Being Up front" means.. get this, Being Upfront About it.. it's not a hard concept to grasp.
And yah.. they should have a large sign that says "Open World PvP" that way, everyone that does not like Open World PvP can pass on that game, right from the start.
What a novel Idea.. telling players what is in your game.
Nerd rage all you want. At some point everyone has to pull up their big boy panties and take responsibility to find out for themselves what the details of any game are. If you can't spend some effort to figure that stuff out for yourself no one is going to do it for you.
You want your way. Well, good luck with that. Let us know how far that gets you.
You are aware that game companies hire advertising agents and even have whole departments who get paid to tell people all about their game, right?
So you believe asking them to a good job.. is asking too much?
I am sure you must say some grand and insightful things on this forum, for your name is to orange.. but this post, was not it.
Yeah but they say that players taking part can attack any player any place in the world. That at least means that at certain points the game is ffa.
If they said that during node wars/sieges players could only be attacked in those zones or specifically areas, that would be another thing. And, if they said that, it wouldn't really raise any red flags as to whether or not there was ffa pvp at all.
Where are they saying that? I read through the description of the Node and Conquest wars and it only mentions guilds.
“But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,”
said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked
filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door
saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
Siege war and node wars to me sounds more like specific territories to fight over. Not open world PvP.
Edit - or guild based but still it doesn't tell me open world or ffa.(I don't know know if it is it not, never played, so just going by what you guys are saying)
Yeah but they say that players taking part can attack any player any place in the world. That at least means that at certain points the game is ffa.
If they said that during node wars/sieges players could only be attacked in those zones or specifically areas, that would be another thing. And, if they said that, it wouldn't really raise any red flags as to whether or not there was ffa pvp at all.
No, the way it's worded, with the key word being "taking part" makes it sound like that all the players taking part in the Node War, can fight each other anywhere in the world (IE: Flagged up for PvP).. thus giving the illusion that if you don't take part in the Node War (which sounds optional) you are not going to be involved in the PvP.
Comments
It is a classic conflict between the customer who wants clear information about the product and the advertiser who wants to present the product in the best way possible and will hide less desirable features with flowery language.
When WoW came out, I read the Blizzard pages about the game and I got a rather skewed picture of the game. Based on their description raiding seemed like an ad-hoc disorganized affair that happened once or twice per month. ie Onyxia shows up out of the blue and everyone who is logged in at the time can come to try kill her. The reality turned out much different.
Heck, some EVE advertising can make you think that the game has opt-in PvP.
Going to a game's forums before subscribing to the game is not 'normal'. Heck most of those forums are subscriber-only. It is beyond the level of research most people think they should need to do.
1. There's a lot more PvE'ers out there than PvP'ers. The more PvE'ers a MMO has, the healthier and, likely, more active it is. Pure PvP MMOs, or those with a greater PvP focus (particularly when it's open, unrestricted world PvP) don't tend to draw quite as large of crowds.
This is evidenced by the sheer number of PvE-centric MMOs versus purely PvP-centric MMOs. Further, those PvE MMOs that do introduce PvP typically do it in an arena setting, or otherwise on separate servers, etc. PvE'ers don't tend to want to deal with other players coming in to screw with them while they're questing. They want to do what they're doing, and be left alone.
2. PvE'ers = "sheep", with PvP'ers of course considering themselves "the wolves". The more "sheep" to hunt the happier the "wolves" will be. While there are some PvP'ers out there who truly want an actual *challenge* when they engage in PvP, many, many of them just want the cheap thrill of killing another player who had no chance of surviving or fighting back, and it's a bonus if they can get that player to whine about it.
I saw a post on the official TERA forums a while back where someone was complaining that it was too easy for weaker players to get away, and that the devs should implement more abilities to root or slow them so they could be ganked more easily. Not joking. They suggested that "the fun in it for the victim should be trying to escape", and it *couldn't* be as fun for the victim if they're able to get away so easily. The projection was off the charts.
They're effectively doing the equivalent of walking on to an Elementary school playground as a grown adult and beating the crap out of some kids, but for some reason, that makes them feel hardcore and awesome, especially considering how some of them will gloat and brag about how "badly they pwned" their victim.
In Lineage 2, I used to deliberately hang around lower level areas, starting towns and such, waiting for that type to show up. Just hanging out. They wouldn't dare attack me 'cause I was clearly the higher level, and stronger one in those situations. But... once I saw them go red on some new players who'd only barely taken their first few steps into the game, they were open game for me. I'd drop them and oh boy would the whining commence. I've had people who literally spent 15-20 minutes repeatedly ganking brand-new players, 20+ levels below them, say they were going to report me to a GM for "harassing them". The ones with the biggest mouths when they're on the dealing end tend to become the biggest cry-babies when the tables are turned on them. It's really quite funny, in a sad way.
Your point is well put and well taken.
Maybe knowing the landscape opens our eyes to things that others might not see.
I still think that the mention that any player may attack any other player anywhere in the game at any time during the node war period would at least inform a person that at some point the entire world becomes FFA pvp and from that point it would beg the question whether or not there are other times.
But thanks for your post, very well done.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
PvP in MMO's a huge issue, one you have written many posts about, and the ginormous number of posts regarding it, show clearly this is not a "Secondary" consideration, and should not be treated as such.
I hope that in the future we have just as many sandbox MMORPGs as themeparks.
I haven't played either, I was looking into playing it, and almost bought it, but thankfully I found out it was Open World PvP, before I wasted my money on it. Still it's cheesy how they dance the issue, and I had to find out on a Wiki, as opposed to the Game makers themselves saying it outright.
It sends up too many red flags when a Game Maker is not proud to announce exactly how their PvP system works... in my mind that screams "They screwed it up"
and Screwed up PvP in an MMO is not something I wanna deal with, but that is just me.
Yeah but they say that players taking part can attack any player any place in the world. That at least means that at certain points the game is ffa.
If they said that during node wars/sieges players could only be attacked in those zones or specifically areas, that would be another thing. And, if they said that, it wouldn't really raise any red flags as to whether or not there was ffa pvp at all.
It should be mentioned that their site says that there are "a variety of pvp activities for players" and that "two events where all player/guilds can participate are the node wars/sieges".
That begs the question as to what are the other pvp activities. I don't think they are hiding anything as they do say that there are times where the game becomes ffa pvp. I just think it's a poorly written/laid out site.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So you believe asking them to a good job.. is asking too much?
I am sure you must say some grand and insightful things on this forum, for your name is to orange.. but this post, was not it.
Where are they saying that? I read through the description of the Node and Conquest wars and it only mentions guilds.
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,”
said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked
filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door
saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
―
Douglas Adams,
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
No, the way it's worded, with the key word being "taking part" makes it sound like that all the players taking part in the Node War, can fight each other anywhere in the world (IE: Flagged up for PvP).. thus giving the illusion that if you don't take part in the Node War (which sounds optional) you are not going to be involved in the PvP.