MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
I get your point, but crowdfunded MMORPG developers need no help scalping more cash from gamers for bold promises. I'm a believer in the whole idea that folks need to be responsible for their own actions; I just don't understand why so many around here seem to want to apply that idea strictly to the consumer side of this equation. Nobody's forcing these developers into making unrealistic promises to sell pledge packages. They consciously chose this route, and we all really know why: because their plans would never fly if they ran them by a traditional, experienced, and informed publisher.
That's no reason to cut them any slack, in my opinion. Quite the opposite. They're coming to gamers because they know gamers will make an emotional purchase instead of a calculated one. They know they can stoke the flames of that emotional attachment to continually fleece the same backers for repeated cash injections. I think most want genuinely want to create a fun game. I just also think that most (yes, even you, Chris Roberts) are in over their heads. That hasn't stopped some of them from revising deadline after deadline and blowing those those same deadlines repeatedly, all the while not batting one eyelash at the fact that they're raking in cash based on those deadlines and the hype they can create among their mini-communities.
I agree Slapshot passionately dislikes this game's development team. But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't see any realistic way the team really believed they could achieve the goals they set and advertised to garner funds in the timeframe they set to, again, garner funds. If they're facing such passionate backlash from cynical types such as Slapshot, they have nobody but themselves to blame. Personal responsibility, and all that.
.... Like I said... guy wants to talk down to his customers and brag about his Gantt charts... great. But if you're gonna talk the talk you better walk the walk. ...
Yeah, especially when you have people scouring your forums with religious zeal looking for anything negative to report. The positive stuff? Well who cares about that, it's not as much fun to talk about.
Congratulations. Your'e the TMZ of the MMO world, dude.
You're right. The state of their game has nothing to do with them. It's Slapshot's fault. If only it hadn't been for that guy who posted on MMORPG everyone would be playing the completed game with all the promised features.
Seriously... positive stuff? Go ahead and list it but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.
Here I will start you off: They have a diehard and dedicated community base of a few thousand potential players. The developers interact with the diehard community on their forums and Discord. The developers have created some nifty background concepts/outlines for the future world.
Your turn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Fair enough. So Slapshot was right about their deadline. So were a lot of other people; I never thought they'd launch in 2017. They failed at their original deadline. He was right ... I'll say it again, he was right. They pushed back their deadline. He was right, He was right, he was right (hopefully, that's enough for him to orgasm). But then there's the part where Slapshot constantly monitors their forum looking for dirt and then comes back here to post it. That is nothing more than a massive troll. Rarely, if ever, is the context preserved. Sorry, but I have no respect for that. It serves no useful purpose.
I think the largest driver behind Slap's shark-like instinct regarding criticizing this title is an audacious timeline that the developers defended in a rather snarky manner.
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that @MightyUnclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
EDIT- It's also worth noting that MJ has allowed backers with the skills and knowledge necessary to make a very real, non-monetary contribution to the game, and the CSE team has recognized those backers in a pretty serious way, by adding a floating link on their webpage that points to a page where they explain the contributions and thank said backers. That's the kind of thing that shows your community you're in it to win it for them, too.
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
I get your point, but crowdfunded MMORPG developers need no help scalping more cash from gamers for bold promises. I'm a believer in the whole idea that folks need to be responsible for their own actions; I just don't understand why so many around here seem to want to apply that idea strictly to the consumer side of this equation. Nobody's forcing these developers into making unrealistic promises to sell pledge packages. They consciously chose this route, and we all really know why: because their plans would never fly if they ran them by a traditional, experienced, and informed publisher.
That's no reason to cut them any slack, in my opinion. Quite the opposite. They're coming to gamers because they know gamers will make an emotional purchase instead of a calculated one. They know they can stoke the flames of that emotional attachment to continually fleece the same backers for repeated cash injections. I think most want genuinely want to create a fun game. I just also think that most (yes, even you, Chris Roberts) are in over their heads. That hasn't stopped some of them from revising deadline after deadline and blowing those those same deadlines repeatedly, all the while not batting one eyelash at the fact that they're raking in cash based on those deadlines and the hype they can create among their mini-communities.
I agree Slapshot passionately dislikes this game's development team. But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't see any realistic way the team really believed they could achieve the goals they set and advertised to garner funds in the timeframe they set to, again, garner funds. If they're facing such passionate backlash from cynical types such as Slapshot, they have nobody but themselves to blame. Personal responsibility, and all that.
Fair enough. So Slapshot was right about their deadline. So were a lot of other people; I never thought they'd launch in 2017. They failed at their original deadline. He was right ... I'll say it again, he was right. They pushed back their deadline. He was right, He was right, he was right (hopefully, that's enough for him to orgasm). But then there's the part where Slapshot constantly monitors their forum looking for dirt and then comes back here to post it. That is nothing more than a massive troll. Rarely, if ever, is the context preserved. Sorry, but I have no respect for that. It serves no useful purpose.
I think the largest driver behind Slap's shark-like instinct regarding criticizing this title is an audacious timeline that the developers defended in a rather snarky manner.
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that Unclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
Totally agree about MJ. Difference is that he actually apologized for being so wrong and just as importantly he offers your money back. They actually have a clearly posted no questions asked refund policy.
Contrast that with CoE who's terms say No Refunds...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
I get your point, but crowdfunded MMORPG developers need no help scalping more cash from gamers for bold promises. I'm a believer in the whole idea that folks need to be responsible for their own actions; I just don't understand why so many around here seem to want to apply that idea strictly to the consumer side of this equation. Nobody's forcing these developers into making unrealistic promises to sell pledge packages. They consciously chose this route, and we all really know why: because their plans would never fly if they ran them by a traditional, experienced, and informed publisher.
That's no reason to cut them any slack, in my opinion. Quite the opposite. They're coming to gamers because they know gamers will make an emotional purchase instead of a calculated one. They know they can stoke the flames of that emotional attachment to continually fleece the same backers for repeated cash injections. I think most want genuinely want to create a fun game. I just also think that most (yes, even you, Chris Roberts) are in over their heads. That hasn't stopped some of them from revising deadline after deadline and blowing those those same deadlines repeatedly, all the while not batting one eyelash at the fact that they're raking in cash based on those deadlines and the hype they can create among their mini-communities.
I agree Slapshot passionately dislikes this game's development team. But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't see any realistic way the team really believed they could achieve the goals they set and advertised to garner funds in the timeframe they set to, again, garner funds. If they're facing such passionate backlash from cynical types such as Slapshot, they have nobody but themselves to blame. Personal responsibility, and all that.
Fair enough. So Slapshot was right about their deadline. So were a lot of other people; I never thought they'd launch in 2017. They failed at their original deadline. He was right ... I'll say it again, he was right. They pushed back their deadline. He was right, He was right, he was right (hopefully, that's enough for him to orgasm). But then there's the part where Slapshot constantly monitors their forum looking for dirt and then comes back here to post it. That is nothing more than a massive troll. Rarely, if ever, is the context preserved. Sorry, but I have no respect for that. It serves no useful purpose.
I think the largest driver behind Slap's shark-like instinct regarding criticizing this title is an audacious timeline that the developers defended in a rather snarky manner.
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that Unclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
... Contrast that with CoE who's terms say No Refunds...
No refunds makes a lot more sense than offering refunds during development on a crowdfunded project. Mark Jacobs has enough recognition to inspire enough confidence to offer refunds without risking the project. But for any new company it would be incredibly fucking stupid to do that. Sorry if you don't understand yet. I'm guessing you will eventually.
Sorry you don't see how offering a ridiculous timeline, taking people's money based on that, then doubling the timeline (and counting) but not allowing refunds is simply wrong.
PS: still waiting for all the positives that actually exist (not promised) and are not related to stuff you can buy. You claimed I was blocking them all out so I'm dying to see them. Go ahead and list all those positives outside of the 3 I already gave you.
PPS: Ashes of Creation is also a new company.. who's CEO has no experience in the industry. They offer refunds...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
I get your point, but crowdfunded MMORPG developers need no help scalping more cash from gamers for bold promises. I'm a believer in the whole idea that folks need to be responsible for their own actions; I just don't understand why so many around here seem to want to apply that idea strictly to the consumer side of this equation. Nobody's forcing these developers into making unrealistic promises to sell pledge packages. They consciously chose this route, and we all really know why: because their plans would never fly if they ran them by a traditional, experienced, and informed publisher.
That's no reason to cut them any slack, in my opinion. Quite the opposite. They're coming to gamers because they know gamers will make an emotional purchase instead of a calculated one. They know they can stoke the flames of that emotional attachment to continually fleece the same backers for repeated cash injections. I think most want genuinely want to create a fun game. I just also think that most (yes, even you, Chris Roberts) are in over their heads. That hasn't stopped some of them from revising deadline after deadline and blowing those those same deadlines repeatedly, all the while not batting one eyelash at the fact that they're raking in cash based on those deadlines and the hype they can create among their mini-communities.
I agree Slapshot passionately dislikes this game's development team. But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't see any realistic way the team really believed they could achieve the goals they set and advertised to garner funds in the timeframe they set to, again, garner funds. If they're facing such passionate backlash from cynical types such as Slapshot, they have nobody but themselves to blame. Personal responsibility, and all that.
Fair enough. So Slapshot was right about their deadline. So were a lot of other people; I never thought they'd launch in 2017. They failed at their original deadline. He was right ... I'll say it again, he was right. They pushed back their deadline. He was right, He was right, he was right (hopefully, that's enough for him to orgasm). But then there's the part where Slapshot constantly monitors their forum looking for dirt and then comes back here to post it. That is nothing more than a massive troll. Rarely, if ever, is the context preserved. Sorry, but I have no respect for that. It serves no useful purpose.
I think the largest driver behind Slap's shark-like instinct regarding criticizing this title is an audacious timeline that the developers defended in a rather snarky manner.
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that Unclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
Yeah, but Mark Jacobs is a veteran. Jeromy doesn't have that experience. I'm willing to give him a bit of leeway. Apparently, others are not, and that's there prerogative but I think it's counterproductive.
That's fair. But that's the kind of thing you know because you take the time to peruse these forums and keep a pulse on the gaming world. The guy who signed me up for my new Verizon account the other day pledged SC; he didn't have any idea about CR's past projects, though. That was very clear when I quizzed him about what made him want to pledge. He saw the hype, the conventions and the videos and what not, and thought it looked like a cool thing to get in on.
He has to take responsibility for that, sure, but CIG also made those videos and spent money planning those conventions because they knew it would generate such revenue from folks who aren't (and really, when compared to traditional backers, can't be) as informed as folks from EA or Nexon.
Also, posting from my phone, so my post went through several edits. Just wanted to give you a heads up. The underlying message didn't change, just added some to the point.
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
I get your point, but crowdfunded MMORPG developers need no help scalping more cash from gamers for bold promises. I'm a believer in the whole idea that folks need to be responsible for their own actions; I just don't understand why so many around here seem to want to apply that idea strictly to the consumer side of this equation. Nobody's forcing these developers into making unrealistic promises to sell pledge packages. They consciously chose this route, and we all really know why: because their plans would never fly if they ran them by a traditional, experienced, and informed publisher.
That's no reason to cut them any slack, in my opinion. Quite the opposite. They're coming to gamers because they know gamers will make an emotional purchase instead of a calculated one. They know they can stoke the flames of that emotional attachment to continually fleece the same backers for repeated cash injections. I think most want genuinely want to create a fun game. I just also think that most (yes, even you, Chris Roberts) are in over their heads. That hasn't stopped some of them from revising deadline after deadline and blowing those those same deadlines repeatedly, all the while not batting one eyelash at the fact that they're raking in cash based on those deadlines and the hype they can create among their mini-communities.
I agree Slapshot passionately dislikes this game's development team. But, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't see any realistic way the team really believed they could achieve the goals they set and advertised to garner funds in the timeframe they set to, again, garner funds. If they're facing such passionate backlash from cynical types such as Slapshot, they have nobody but themselves to blame. Personal responsibility, and all that.
Fair enough. So Slapshot was right about their deadline. So were a lot of other people; I never thought they'd launch in 2017. They failed at their original deadline. He was right ... I'll say it again, he was right. They pushed back their deadline. He was right, He was right, he was right (hopefully, that's enough for him to orgasm). But then there's the part where Slapshot constantly monitors their forum looking for dirt and then comes back here to post it. That is nothing more than a massive troll. Rarely, if ever, is the context preserved. Sorry, but I have no respect for that. It serves no useful purpose.
I think the largest driver behind Slap's shark-like instinct regarding criticizing this title is an audacious timeline that the developers defended in a rather snarky manner.
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that Unclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
... Contrast that with CoE who's terms say No Refunds...
No refunds makes a lot more sense than offering refunds during development on a crowdfunded project. Mark Jacobs has enough recognition to inspire enough confidence to offer refunds without risking the project. But for any new company it would be incredibly fucking stupid to do that. Sorry if you don't understand yet. I'm guessing you will eventually.
...
PS: still waiting for all the positives that actually exist (not promised) and are not related to stuff you can buy. You claimed I was blocking them all out so I'm dying to see them. Go ahead and list all those positives outside of the 3 I already gave you. ....
I claimed you were focusing on the negative and you are. There's positive discussion on the CoE forums, even in the context of the change that prompted this thread but your title was "backlash" blah, blah, blah. You don't care about the positive. You just wanted another opportunity to slag the project and you got it.
That's a short list...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Slapshot's posts are the only interesting content on this entire website. He effectively does what the staff writers of MMORPG.com should do, but won't because they need the ad revenue that dev shops will pay to be promoted here.
What's nice about this project is that Caspian had posted everything he wanted the game to be on their site. The vision he has for how pieces within the game will work out is brilliant. The problem is its stuff that works in the background, things that take extensive development to get right and there was a lot of it. On top of that there had to be an mmorpg as well.
With such an extensive list they would need to cut down on features to make the game, but instead caspian added three big features that would happen prior to the release and he double downed on the release schedule.
I'm not that upset that they start selling perks all the time because that's what will keep development going but they really have to look at their feature list and make tough sacrifices to make the game happen.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
You definitely should. Trolling is much more fun when you have like-minded companions. The only thing better than investing personal time into destroying the work of others is having company when you do it.
Did you try to be ironic there or is that just blending into our oh so toxic community?
The problem is its stuff that works in the background, things that take extensive development to get right and there was a lot of it.
Not at all.
What is expensive in game development is what runs in "foreground" - graphics, animation, world content, things you see and interact with. You need coders, artists, animators, etc.
CoE is focused on mechanics, things that run on the server, in the background, and those are very cheap to make because it requires mostly coders only.
The tricky parts will be design, balancing and tech but their development plan seems indeed reasonable.
To your first point. It's not just the delay itself. It's the way Jeremy mocked people who told him his timeline was unrealistic.
This is really what it boils down to. Jeremy got upset about trolls spreading misinformation. He lashed out which he shouldn't have done. Your feelings got hurt and now you have an agenda to hurt him. Because outside of that one incident about the original timeline you have nothing...
To your first point. It's not just the delay itself. It's the way Jeremy mocked people who told him his timeline was unrealistic.
This is really what it boils down to. Jeremy got upset about trolls spreading misinformation. He lashed out which he shouldn't have done. Your feelings got hurt and now you have an agenda to hurt him. Because outside of that one incident about the original timeline you have nothing...
Again... totally false info from the echo chamber. Let's just start with the misinformation statement. Was it misinformation when people stated that there was no way he could deliver the promised game in 18 months? Or was it misinformation to say it would be done and mock those who claimed otherwise? Did people donate money based on that misinformation? Can they be refunded?
Go ahead and answer that one before you even THINK of using the misinformation kinard again.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You definitely should. Trolling is much more fun when you have like-minded companions. The only thing better than investing personal time into destroying the work of others is having company when you do it.
Did you try to be ironic there or is that just blending into our oh so toxic community?
Sedryn and SEANMCAD must be related, LOL.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Your feelings got hurt and now you have an agenda to hurt him. Because outside of that one incident about the original timeline you have nothing...
Every game that Slappy has called out has been a proven failure. Mortal online, Greedmonger and Pathfinder Online were all called correctly by Slap. When Jeremy posted his ridiculous timeline and Slap called him on it, all you fanatics cried wolf. The only people hurt here are you blindly devoted fans and Jeremy.
As far as I am concerned, Slap is 4 and 0 and is calling this one accurately. I dont see any misinformation posted by Slap here. I see a CEO who is in trouble because he way underestimated the time and money needed to create his vision so now he has to sell $10 tickets to vote for a king.
The only misinformation I see here is when Jeremy stated that thousands of people requested this $10 king ticket crap or that they requested to have their founders packages devalued. Can you show me the poll where Jeremy got this information from "thousands"?
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Everyone seems to be focusing on this "missed deadline" issue. But that in and of itself is not really the issue. It's the symptom.
I remember following this project early on, and everything they were talking about left me thinking "WTF????"
1. All the untested middle-ware use as if it was all going to slide into place with no issues as if it was all originally designed just for COE?
2. $1M dollar budget for an MMO with no investors?
3. The untested, unproven development team? (In conjuction with point 1)
Even the most incompetent of developers can see this train-wreck coming. So that means that I fully believe that the CoE team has been deceptive from the beginning.
I am not saying this was a scam, but I am saying. I think they blew smoke up everyone's ass to try to get something off the ground and hope for another "Star Citizen"
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
MMORPG.com forums: No quarter asked, none given.
God I so love this place.
guys...can we please just stick to the subject
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMORPG.COM, if you are going to post here, you'd better be wearing your big boy pants.
I was thinking, when I read one of those brand spanking new accounts claim MMORPG.com forums have a toxic reputation earlier in the thread, that the label really translates into "doesn't take bullshit well." That's the kind of label I think we can all be proud of.
Oh, give me a break, Frenchie. You may not be toxic but this forum definitely is nowadays. Skepticism has too often turned to relentless bashing in the name of "I'm right, it's going to fail, I'm right, I called it, I'm right ... did I mention I was right?"
MMORPG.com forums: No quarter asked, none given.
God I so love this place.
Ha, I do enjoy the level of comfort most of us seem to have gained regarding viciously arguing amongst ourselves (and others) at times. I've never been one to shy away from a debate, so it suits me just fine.
Also what I like: @SBFord's spiciness whenever we get out of line on her news features.
Also what I like: @SBFord's spiciness whenever we get out of line on her news features.
I've been really impressed with her ability to pull out of a devolving conversation on her feature pieces... much, much better self control than I have. =P
But, I'd like to point out that the option of dumping many of the promised features of CoE would end up making the game a generic MMORPG, something that it has stressed incessantly to differentiate itself from.
The problem with Caspian's miscalculation isn't a simple "people make mistakes" cliche. He's been in the industry and knew better than anyone that his vision would need way more money and/or time for it to come true. After being confronted on his impossible time-line and features for the game, instead of leaving room for possible delays and/or set-backs he used child-like comebacks instead of agreeing that these are certainly possible outcomes.
This leaves him in checkmate because if he truly did not know these are the basic principles of business and development then he is not qualified to tackle a project of CoE's magnitude. I'd recommend him taking a Six Sigma course to educate him on time management and to stay on focus but he's busy making a Minecraft mod.
A simple mistake by a novice and a professional are two completely different situations. Especially when that mistake could be intentional, if such is the case, the professional is looking at being shunned by his peers and 4Chan for a long time.
But, I'd like to point out that the option of dumping many of the promised features of CoE would end up making the game a generic MMORPG, something that it has stressed incessantly to differentiate itself from.
With CoE there are some obvious features that could be cut, elyriamud, the web-based throne game and the offline version of the game. Instead of focusing on making one game they are now trying to make three different versions of the game plus the full game.
The team behind life is feudal handled it a lot better, they made a smaller version of their game and sold it separately so that it could help fund the full version of the game.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
All of these quotes and the ones from the OP was from when the à la carte was announced. There's always a tonne of concern and backlashes when changes are announced. Even though OP painted the reactions in a very dark black, reactions were not all negative. I'd say mixed.
Comments
Seriously... positive stuff? Go ahead and list it but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.
Here I will start you off: They have a diehard and dedicated community base of a few thousand potential players. The developers interact with the diehard community on their forums and Discord. The developers have created some nifty background concepts/outlines for the future world.
Your turn.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I take a look at a project like CU, and it's also behind. However, I haven't seen nearly as much criticism or hate thrown their way, because I think @MarkJacobs has handled the development and delays like a true professional. He stayed very cautious about progress and plans, he pledged his own money to the project and made that clear up front to the gaming public, and he did not attempt (at least from the communications I've read from him) to qualify or shirk the heat from delays the project has endured. He's made a habit of being so understated that @MightyUnclean here on the forums was wondering if the project had gone under. It hasn't, and it's still chugging along, but that just goes to illustrate the large difference in how MJ is handling his project versus what has become par for the course among the MMORPG crowdfunding scene at large. He has communicated numerous times he will show off when he has his show-off-worthy things done, and not a moment before. Is he still attempting to build a faithful trust among his backers? Yes, that's the unavoidable name of the game for crowdfunding, but he's doing so in a way that screams "I'm on the level."
I have no doubt he could have gathered a lot more funds had he went balls-out marketing hype machine like some of these other projects have done. He could've also sold houses for thousands and thousands of dollars. He refrained from doing either, instead keeping his nose to the grindstone and avoiding the spotlight (so far) until his product is ready for it. Had CoE and other projects taken a similar path, I don't think there would be nearly as much hate as we've seen.
Obviously a lot of this is my perspective and opinion, so I in no way am implying you should shed your opinion to assume mine. Just expounding on why I err on the side of the cynics in these situations. Well, this, and I'm largely a cynic myself. But that's a whole other can of worms.
EDIT- It's also worth noting that MJ has allowed backers with the skills and knowledge necessary to make a very real, non-monetary contribution to the game, and the CSE team has recognized those backers in a pretty serious way, by adding a floating link on their webpage that points to a page where they explain the contributions and thank said backers. That's the kind of thing that shows your community you're in it to win it for them, too.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/thank-you-mod-squad/
Contrast that with CoE who's terms say No Refunds...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
PS: still waiting for all the positives that actually exist (not promised) and are not related to stuff you can buy. You claimed I was blocking them all out so I'm dying to see them. Go ahead and list all those positives outside of the 3 I already gave you.
PPS: Ashes of Creation is also a new company.. who's CEO has no experience in the industry. They offer refunds...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
He has to take responsibility for that, sure, but CIG also made those videos and spent money planning those conventions because they knew it would generate such revenue from folks who aren't (and really, when compared to traditional backers, can't be) as informed as folks from EA or Nexon.
Also, posting from my phone, so my post went through several edits. Just wanted to give you a heads up. The underlying message didn't change, just added some to the point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
With such an extensive list they would need to cut down on features to make the game, but instead caspian added three big features that would happen prior to the release and he double downed on the release schedule.
I'm not that upset that they start selling perks all the time because that's what will keep development going but they really have to look at their feature list and make tough sacrifices to make the game happen.
What is expensive in game development is what runs in "foreground" - graphics, animation, world content, things you see and interact with. You need coders, artists, animators, etc.
CoE is focused on mechanics, things that run on the server, in the background, and those are very cheap to make because it requires mostly coders only.
The tricky parts will be design, balancing and tech but their development plan seems indeed reasonable.
Go ahead and answer that one before you even THINK of using the misinformation kinard again.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As far as I am concerned, Slap is 4 and 0 and is calling this one accurately. I dont see any misinformation posted by Slap here. I see a CEO who is in trouble because he way underestimated the time and money needed to create his vision so now he has to sell $10 tickets to vote for a king.
The only misinformation I see here is when Jeremy stated that thousands of people requested this $10 king ticket crap or that they requested to have their founders packages devalued. Can you show me the poll where Jeremy got this information from "thousands"?
I remember following this project early on, and everything they were talking about left me thinking "WTF????"
1. All the untested middle-ware use as if it was all going to slide into place with no issues as if it was all originally designed just for COE?
2. $1M dollar budget for an MMO with no investors?
3. The untested, unproven development team? (In conjuction with point 1)
Even the most incompetent of developers can see this train-wreck coming. So that means that I fully believe that the CoE team has been deceptive from the beginning.
I am not saying this was a scam, but I am saying. I think they blew smoke up everyone's ass to try to get something off the ground and hope for another "Star Citizen"
It didn't happen, so neither will CoE.
God I so love this place.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Also what I like: @SBFord's spiciness whenever we get out of line on her news features.
But, I'd like to point out that the option of dumping many of the promised features of CoE would end up making the game a generic MMORPG, something that it has stressed incessantly to differentiate itself from.
The problem with Caspian's miscalculation isn't a simple "people make mistakes" cliche. He's been in the industry and knew better than anyone that his vision would need way more money and/or time for it to come true. After being confronted on his impossible time-line and features for the game, instead of leaving room for possible delays and/or set-backs he used child-like comebacks instead of agreeing that these are certainly possible outcomes.
This leaves him in checkmate because if he truly did not know these are the basic principles of business and development then he is not qualified to tackle a project of CoE's magnitude. I'd recommend him taking a Six Sigma course to educate him on time management and to stay on focus but he's busy making a Minecraft mod.
A simple mistake by a novice and a professional are two completely different situations. Especially when that mistake could be intentional, if such is the case, the professional is looking at being shunned by his peers and 4Chan for a long time.
Just another "Yet one more RMT driven online experience"
The team behind life is feudal handled it a lot better, they made a smaller version of their game and sold it separately so that it could help fund the full version of the game.
Great update, Vye. Now's the time to fill your boots, people
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Finally a Surname
God bless Vie. Lol about time
That's super exciting! I can't wait to see what the prices are for some of the a la carte items!
Early backers did get the best deal(s), the a la carte options won't include any of the bundled discounts, so people will be paying full price. Thus, the earliest backers will still have received the highest value for those items.
A great many players have been asking for this option and we understand that not everyone's financial situation matches their enthusiasm for the game and this community."
At this point, any changes at all to the game in ANY way will cause a volley of complaints. LOL. Hey, I bought the packages at the price offered with what was included at the time. I was happy to do so. It is unrealistic to think that things will stay static forever. If we had the option to buy the things piece meal like now, I am sure they would have raised far less money. No one held a gun to any ones head to buy those packages. It's sort of like complaining that you bought your new tv on sale a year ago and now it's on a even better sale and you want the new price a year after it. Do you complain when the cable company you have belonged to for the last 10 years lowers their prices for new subscribers too?
<SNIP>
So you had to pay a few extra dollars for something that your getting offered at a lower rate now. Life sux sometimes. In my case, I am sorry, I just can't get upset over something I payed for over a year ago changing their business model to meet current expectations. This is a KS game in development. Did you really think things wouldn't change and adjust to the new needs of the game?
On the other hand, I understand providing the alpha and beta access to new comers as well as I've found games late in development that I couldn't gain access to it simply because I didn't learn about it fast enough.
If you've ever bought something a la carte you'll know that it's not as good a deal as buying a package or a combo pack. People are complaining about buying a more expensive pledge just to get Alpha I or II access and now people will be able to purchase those separately. Well A) If they are cheaper than the original packages they were part of, I expect they won't be significantly cheaper, and
I'm sorry that you got a lot of other really cool stuff with your early access.
Do I understand the concern? Sure. There are a few things I would not have put on that list, had I been asked beforehand. But am I upset? No, because someone else getting something shiny will not, in any way, make the things I get any less shiny. And ultimately, I paid what I did to support this game's development rather than to have any particular stuff.
Sweet, if it's not that much ££ I might grab alpha 2!
We heard about this la carte items ages back. If they really wanted to make money, why would they get rid of the expensive packages? Or why wouldn't they sell better stuff. Like the DEs? Most of the stuff there you get with the cheap packages. Only thing people are up in arms about is alpha/beta. If those weren't there, high chance no one would even care.
I often wondered about and wanted to buy more DE as you have mentioned... name your price!1
The a la carte items announcement is great news. I have been watching the development of the game for almost year now without pledging. I will now put a settler package with some extra EP in layaway. Now that I can add a Ursaphant to my package later. The settler package had everything I wanted except the mount I wanted. The game is now coming together it seems. Thanks Soulbound
I personally totally agree with opening up reward purchases, although I hope early alpha access come at a steep price, so we can get more monies invested into the game
I personally don't mind
that other players have the options of buying the same perks I did,
even if only marginally more expensive.
Everything I've read so far seems to be following a realistic business effort to not just gather revenue, but to ensure Coe has enough interested players to test the game properly and make a better impact on the server worlds during Exposition.
(Oh, look ... OP had quoted part of this post, too)