At this point I think both games are too much of an
unknown...
WoW has nostalgia, but as everyone has said, that will only last so long
(assuming Blizzard don't screw it up from the get go). And without additional
content, or if said content is poorly received, then chances are it'll be dead
in a few months anyway (i.e. I get going back for the nostalgia trip, but do
people really want to commit to the same 40-man raid end-game all over again?)
Pantheon is new, but built on the ideas of old (some good, others not so much),
so it is yet to be seen if it will work for more than just the hardcore... I am
hopeful it will, but if it’s all forced grouping, attunements (fragmenting the player base), and required
split-pulls then I don’t see it picking up much of an audience.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
If Pantheon is a quest hub to quest hub circus I'll be deeply saddened. But I don't think they are going that way. Did you miss the quests in EQ? You had to actually talk and hail people to get them.
It sounds like you are agreeing with me that some questing is warranted, as you argue that eq had quests.
However, the classic eq quest system was poorly implemented and effectively was not a part of the main game at all. Many were broken, and almost none had rewards enough to motivate the population to want to do them. Hence the common mockery "neverquest".
Quest hub to quest hub is definitely not needed, but there does need to be enough working questing WITH rewards that it makes sense for the population to consider them part of the game.
If Pantheon is a quest hub to quest hub circus I'll be deeply saddened. But I don't think they are going that way. Did you miss the quests in EQ?
This post got me thinking. When I played EQ, other than my own epic and helping friends with theirs, I didn't do a lot of questing. Most of the quests seemed out of balance in terms of what you had to do for what reward. There were some exceptions, of course.
But this is why so many players were out and about exploring and camping in "xp groups," or joining up in groups at dungeons (e.g., Karnor's Castle).
If there had been a ton of quests in EQ that offered meaningful xp or rewards, people would have been doing them.
And had they been doing them, a lot of the social element the game is known for would have been affected, as people raced from quest to quest (WoW-like) with little discussion (instead of fighting (EQ-style) in small groups.
This may actually be one of the easiest ways to ruin the social element in Pantheon, if xp is primarily quest based instead of people joining up and finding their own fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
If Pantheon is a quest hub to quest hub circus I'll be deeply saddened. But I don't think they are going that way. Did you miss the quests in EQ? You had to actually talk and hail people to get them.
It sounds like you are agreeing with me that some questing is warranted, as you argue that eq had quests.
However, the classic eq quest system was poorly implemented and effectively was not a part of the main game at all. Many were broken, and almost none had rewards enough to motivate the population to want to do them. Hence the common mockery "neverquest".
Quest hub to quest hub is definitely not needed, but there does need to be enough working questing WITH rewards that it makes sense for the population to consider them part of the game.
Actually having to read NPC dialog and having to actually interact with them and figure out their quest is "poor implementation"? Vs. Running to the bright yellow marker above someones head and just clicking accept as fast as you can before running to high lighted area and then back to another bright yellow marker is superior?
Look, in EQ's style of questing you had to actually think and figure stuff out, in WoW's you didn't. I think more people being attracted to WoW just confirms most people are lazy is all, not that its superior. Not superior in my opinion anyways...
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I imagine WoW classic will be out well before Pantheon, and like someone said, the classic servers that have expansions that launch, they lose people as it goes in the direction that you know it will go, and people will leave after the initial novelty wears off too.
I never liked WoW myself, but given the current mmos, it is probably more like something I want to play, but I only played WoW beta, and I don't plan on playing it personally. I will just wait, I am playing Archeage right now, but it is going in a direction I hate, as each patch comes along. IT is just super factions (player nations). I have good gear (8k), but I think it has ruined the game. Anyone that doesn't wish to play in the nations can't do much (You have to play with people that have 3-5k gear scores that don't buff, so you have no chance), the original factions are trivialized imo. They make no pve content for the most part, so it is nation or bust...So I just sit around making gold for probably no reason lol.
I hope they stick to sub game and no p2w shop (think they said no cash shop, but if it will truly be nothing but cosmetic, I can live with that, if pay for convenience is even in, then it may as well be p2w imo, as that's where that usually goes and very badly).
So I am waiting, not sure I want in on alpha/beta stuff, as I don't want to ruin the game, and be playing it for like 6-12 months, and then when it does release it is kind of older and not fresh. Having some input (super minor) in direction, is appealing, as I clearly have things I do not like that make/break a game for me.
how much money did you spend to get 8k gear?
I spent money on subs in the beginning, and some deco items like the hot tub thing, but I broke all the gear from then, and got my gear to around 8k and my wives to 7.5 without paying anything, for the last 1.5-2 years. I actually made a big mistake with 3.5, I bought us both a bunch of new gear/weapons right before it hit (probably 400-500k gold), and if I would of waited till after 3.5, instead of epic buffs and legendary weapons, I could of had legendary buff and a mythic myself, and her probably still her legendary. We both have like 5 accounts, we don't run packs anymore, and we have a ton of land in EU Shatigon (hatora area in Arcum Iris). I have had 200 APEX stocked up before there to pay for the accounts. When they have the limited sales on items (expansion scrolls and land certs), I buy hundreds up with the APEX and get a effective return of about 1300-1400 per APEX back on the NA server. I usually buy about 50-80 APEX worth when they have the sales. It is a lot of work, I am kind of tired of it, and I hate the player nation game it has become, I think it has killed the west/east. I am just making gold again, got probably about 200k in NA again, and over 100 APEX in EU atm, after renewing 3 months of subs a couple weeks ago. I spend probably 30-60 minutes a day in EU doing my land (ran out of mines recently, still got 100ish of the majestic trees still). I am having to shift my money making now, I would regularly have 15-20 of the big mines up, couple trees and then sell the stuff from them, and sell crafted stuff. Packs take up too much time, I do have a full time job already lol (and a 2nd it feels like sometimes). I probably have 15-16 upgraded thatched, alchemy house, 20ish 16s, and 2 candy houses, and a bungalow that I use to make money between me and the wives 10-12 accounts (she has had more sometimes, when people quit in the guild, they let her use the accounts for labor). We do daily quests on the guys for the gold/gilda... I mean nothing super secret, to make the gold.
When I had the 500kish gold and 200 APEX, I was thinking Archeage is crazy, the p2w/cash shop stuff, I mean that's $2000 people spent on those APEX, and $5-6000 worth of gold, if people spent money on APEX to sell. Its mind boggling, I tried to stay away from cash shop games, and it is my first one that is so p2w like this. I will not miss this stuff.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I rarely did quests in Vanguard.
As long as one can become geared without quests or it's not a requirement to do anything.
I can see class related quests or lore related quests for games that are really trying for that angle.
But, for example, in Black Desert I can't just buy a compass. I have to do a "quest". Ridiculous.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
If Pantheon is a quest hub to quest hub circus I'll be deeply saddened. But I don't think they are going that way. Did you miss the quests in EQ? You had to actually talk and hail people to get them.
It sounds like you are agreeing with me that some questing is warranted, as you argue that eq had quests.
However, the classic eq quest system was poorly implemented and effectively was not a part of the main game at all. Many were broken, and almost none had rewards enough to motivate the population to want to do them. Hence the common mockery "neverquest".
Quest hub to quest hub is definitely not needed, but there does need to be enough working questing WITH rewards that it makes sense for the population to consider them part of the game.
Actually having to read NPC dialog and having to actually interact with them and figure out their quest is "poor implementation"?
No, poor implementation is a quest system where the quest is so poorly written that its not clear what keyword is needed to advance the quest, and when you finally finish the quest reward was a slap in the face. Poorly implemented meaning so bad that almost no one used it.
Dont get me wrong - Im not saying wow is superior, but at the time wow launched there was a hunger for something more than just camping forever and ever. IMO that is the main reason people left eq at that point. Thats all Im saying.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I rarely did quests in Vanguard.
As long as one can become geared without quests or it's not a requirement to do anything.
I can see class related quests or lore related quests for games that are really trying for that angle.
But, for example, in Black Desert I can't just buy a compass. I have to do a "quest". Ridiculous.
Is it a big deal to do the quest? Your post reminds me of WOWs "carrot on a stick "
If you wanted one you had to complete a chain of quests ending in a world dungeon.
Was it unreasonable that the devs expected you to do their content, especially in a theme park game?
I guess put another way, if a game has quests, shouldn't you expect to have to run at least some of them?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My issue with the early years of both EQ1 and WoW was quests, rather the quest rewards. Developers of both games never really found a balance between difficulty and rewards. EQ1 was stingy with quest rewards, both items, coin and faction were never worth the effort. WoW went the other way, to the point it was almost a waste of time to do anything other than quests. Somewhere in between these extremes has to be a happy medium.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
If Pantheon is a quest hub to quest hub circus I'll be deeply saddened. But I don't think they are going that way. Did you miss the quests in EQ?
This post got me thinking. When I played EQ, other than my own epic and helping friends with theirs, I didn't do a lot of questing. Most of the quests seemed out of balance in terms of what you had to do for what reward. There were some exceptions, of course.
But this is why so many players were out and about exploring and camping in "xp groups," or joining up in groups at dungeons (e.g., Karnor's Castle).
If there had been a ton of quests in EQ that offered meaningful xp or rewards, people would have been doing them.
And had they been doing them, a lot of the social element the game is known for would have been affected, as people raced from quest to quest (WoW-like) with little discussion (instead of fighting (EQ-style) in small groups.
This may actually be one of the easiest ways to ruin the social element in Pantheon, if xp is primarily quest based instead of people joining up and finding their own fun.
Correct. Questing replaced mindless grinding in EQ in WoW. It allowed people a lot more time to allot to other things, and other games. Other activities. Real life.
It was always a bit of a "joke' that EverQuest was named EverQUEST, because there were barely any visible quests in the game. The developers said there were tons of them, and many that players hadn't even discovered... But does that matter if they are so hidden that players practically ignore them and just sit at spots killing respawns all day and night?
The people complaining about WoW Quests are sort of poking at a non-issue. The quests were there largely to facilitate leveling. After leveling, it really wasn't that bad, and isn't.
Original Sin 2 handles quests very well; only problem is that is that leveling power jumps and stat bloat are way too dramatic so you have to go in a very linear route for questing.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I rarely did quests in Vanguard.
As long as one can become geared without quests or it's not a requirement to do anything.
I can see class related quests or lore related quests for games that are really trying for that angle.
But, for example, in Black Desert I can't just buy a compass. I have to do a "quest". Ridiculous.
Yeah, it is just hard to make quests and grinding somewhat equal it seems for the developers, or at least that has been the perception I have seen. You get a group questing, and the same group grinding it hasn't been close. I like to grind, but I also have something in me that will not let me gimp my experience. I liked the grinding with very rare/random drops, much more than questing for the drop...But at the same time, I do not like the same rare/random drops, when in a 5-6 man instance. With lfg tools/instances, games start to feel like a lobby game and not a big world mmorpg with other people in it. I like big dungeons and xp spots with 'camps', like in old EQ. I did like the random spawning 'boss/loot' mob in a dungeon that EQ did introduce later, which took away from their being only 1 spot to camp for something.
Never heard neverquest ever, there were tons of quests, but no handholding so I guess people did not find them.
I heard the term NeverQuest often. Basically a majority of the quests had poor rewards. I actually sought them out as I liked doing them, but getting a couple of gold for a mail quest (deliver mail to another zone - often several zones over) really wasn't worth it - especially if you didn't have bard speed.
Now there was also some very memorable and cool quests, but they were the exception, not the rule.
The other thing I found in quests in both EQ1 and WoW was the overall blandness of the writing. Neither of these bothered to tell the story of the quests through dialog from NPCs. The interaction between the PCs and NPCs was never developed very well. Nothing in either game actually felt like an actual dialog, and rarely did the NPCs seem to have any emotion tied to their dilemma. Writing is writing, and quests could have been a lot better in both games.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The other thing I found in quests in both EQ1 and WoW was the overall blandness of the writing. Neither of these bothered to tell the story of the quests through dialog from NPCs. The interaction between the PCs and NPCs was never developed very well. Nothing in either game actually felt like an actual dialog, and rarely did the NPCs seem to have any emotion tied to their dilemma. Writing is writing, and quests could have been a lot better in both games.
Strange i always thought questing in wow was just going to the ! and hitting accept, and then following the minimap to your prize.
Strange i always thought questing in wow was just going to the ! and hitting accept, and then following the minimap to your prize.
That would be retail WoW, not classic WoW. The mini map didn't provide you with much information back in the day... so you had to actually read the quest text and rely on the internet to guide you. Retail WoW all but drags you by the ear to the objective...
The days of questing to level up just need to die in a fire imo. I miss questing only being for important stuff like something class specific or to gain access to somewhere etc.
The days of questing to level up just need to die in a fire imo. I miss questing only being for important stuff like something class specific or to gain access to somewhere etc.
I am fine with that too, classic UO, you had skills you could gain and lose (with a cap). I guess it is still leveling to some people, if that's what you mean you prefer?
Honestly if Pantheon is a lot like the original Everquest it will have little in common with vanilla WoW and it may not appeal to the the true Everquest veterans so little danger of them being swayed by vanilla WoW.
Plus most of the players wishing to play Pantheon have already played vanilla WoW and they want a new game why would they go back and play a game they already played versus one that has most of the features they enjoyed in Everquest set in a brand new world.
Pantheon core players will be playing regardless of what else is out there. Certainly not classic WoW
Classic WoW was still following a trail of stupid yellow "!"
Pantheon players don't want any of that shit on-rails questing
Meh it's all kill, collect, escort or deliver. There's not a whole lot of creative stuff going on in most quests. I'm betting we will be killing 10 rats, etc, in Pantheon just like the many, many kill quests in WoW.
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To each their own, but I'm with Kano, as long as slaying is challenging, fun and there's a chance of rare lewt, I'd much rather do that than quest. I hope there are quests, but that they save them for when they have a story to tell.
Comments
At this point I think both games are too much of an unknown...
WoW has nostalgia, but as everyone has said, that will only last so long (assuming Blizzard don't screw it up from the get go). And without additional content, or if said content is poorly received, then chances are it'll be dead in a few months anyway (i.e. I get going back for the nostalgia trip, but do people really want to commit to the same 40-man raid end-game all over again?)
Pantheon is new, but built on the ideas of old (some good, others not so much), so it is yet to be seen if it will work for more than just the hardcore... I am hopeful it will, but if it’s all forced grouping, attunements (fragmenting the player base), and required split-pulls then I don’t see it picking up much of an audience.
However, the classic eq quest system was poorly implemented and effectively was not a part of the main game at all. Many were broken, and almost none had rewards enough to motivate the population to want to do them. Hence the common mockery "neverquest".
Quest hub to quest hub is definitely not needed, but there does need to be enough working questing WITH rewards that it makes sense for the population to consider them part of the game.
But this is why so many players were out and about exploring and camping in "xp groups," or joining up in groups at dungeons (e.g., Karnor's Castle).
If there had been a ton of quests in EQ that offered meaningful xp or rewards, people would have been doing them.
And had they been doing them, a lot of the social element the game is known for would have been affected, as people raced from quest to quest (WoW-like) with little discussion (instead of fighting (EQ-style) in small groups.
This may actually be one of the easiest ways to ruin the social element in Pantheon, if xp is primarily quest based instead of people joining up and finding their own fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Look, in EQ's style of questing you had to actually think and figure stuff out, in WoW's you didn't. I think more people being attracted to WoW just confirms most people are lazy is all, not that its superior. Not superior in my opinion anyways...
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I spent money on subs in the beginning, and some deco items like the hot tub thing, but I broke all the gear from then, and got my gear to around 8k and my wives to 7.5 without paying anything, for the last 1.5-2 years. I actually made a big mistake with 3.5, I bought us both a bunch of new gear/weapons right before it hit (probably 400-500k gold), and if I would of waited till after 3.5, instead of epic buffs and legendary weapons, I could of had legendary buff and a mythic myself, and her probably still her legendary. We both have like 5 accounts, we don't run packs anymore, and we have a ton of land in EU Shatigon (hatora area in Arcum Iris). I have had 200 APEX stocked up before there to pay for the accounts. When they have the limited sales on items (expansion scrolls and land certs), I buy hundreds up with the APEX and get a effective return of about 1300-1400 per APEX back on the NA server. I usually buy about 50-80 APEX worth when they have the sales. It is a lot of work, I am kind of tired of it, and I hate the player nation game it has become, I think it has killed the west/east. I am just making gold again, got probably about 200k in NA again, and over 100 APEX in EU atm, after renewing 3 months of subs a couple weeks ago. I spend probably 30-60 minutes a day in EU doing my land (ran out of mines recently, still got 100ish of the majestic trees still). I am having to shift my money making now, I would regularly have 15-20 of the big mines up, couple trees and then sell the stuff from them, and sell crafted stuff. Packs take up too much time, I do have a full time job already lol (and a 2nd it feels like sometimes). I probably have 15-16 upgraded thatched, alchemy house, 20ish 16s, and 2 candy houses, and a bungalow that I use to make money between me and the wives 10-12 accounts (she has had more sometimes, when people quit in the guild, they let her use the accounts for labor). We do daily quests on the guys for the gold/gilda... I mean nothing super secret, to make the gold.
When I had the 500kish gold and 200 APEX, I was thinking Archeage is crazy, the p2w/cash shop stuff, I mean that's $2000 people spent on those APEX, and $5-6000 worth of gold, if people spent money on APEX to sell. Its mind boggling, I tried to stay away from cash shop games, and it is my first one that is so p2w like this. I will not miss this stuff.
As long as one can become geared without quests or it's not a requirement to do anything.
I can see class related quests or lore related quests for games that are really trying for that angle.
But, for example, in Black Desert I can't just buy a compass. I have to do a "quest". Ridiculous.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Dont get me wrong - Im not saying wow is superior, but at the time wow launched there was a hunger for something more than just camping forever and ever. IMO that is the main reason people left eq at that point. Thats all Im saying.
If you wanted one you had to complete a chain of quests ending in a world dungeon.
Was it unreasonable that the devs expected you to do their content, especially in a theme park game?
I guess put another way, if a game has quests, shouldn't you expect to have to run at least some of them?
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"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Correct. Questing replaced mindless grinding in EQ in WoW. It allowed people a lot more time to allot to other things, and other games. Other activities. Real life.
It was always a bit of a "joke' that EverQuest was named EverQUEST, because there were barely any visible quests in the game. The developers said there were tons of them, and many that players hadn't even discovered... But does that matter if they are so hidden that players practically ignore them and just sit at spots killing respawns all day and night?
The people complaining about WoW Quests are sort of poking at a non-issue. The quests were there largely to facilitate leveling. After leveling, it really wasn't that bad, and isn't.
I heard the term NeverQuest often. Basically a majority of the quests had poor rewards. I actually sought them out as I liked doing them, but getting a couple of gold for a mail quest (deliver mail to another zone - often several zones over) really wasn't worth it - especially if you didn't have bard speed.
Now there was also some very memorable and cool quests, but they were the exception, not the rule.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I am fine with that too, classic UO, you had skills you could gain and lose (with a cap). I guess it is still leveling to some people, if that's what you mean you prefer?
Plus most of the players wishing to play Pantheon have already played vanilla WoW and they want a new game why would they go back and play a game they already played versus one that has most of the features they enjoyed in Everquest set in a brand new world.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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