Dangerous...................I believe this is the biggest thing missing in new mmos. I do understand that lots if not most of the people playing today want low risk, but there are those of us that thrived on a game that gave us that feeling of fear as we entered a new area. Make it hurt to die, not so much that you won't explore, just hard enough to make you wary.............exp loss, corpse retrieval, rezzes for a percentage of the loss (not too high). It's ok to make classes that can alleviate some of the penalty, but with time also being a punishment for "losing" that would still be acceptable to me.
I think a game should have a sufficient penalty that you try to avoid death best you can, but not a penalty so severe that you never take any risks at all.
In my understanding, EQ was more of the later kind.
Dangerous...................I believe this is the biggest thing missing in new mmos. I do understand that lots if not most of the people playing today want low risk, but there are those of us that thrived on a game that gave us that feeling of fear as we entered a new area. Make it hurt to die, not so much that you won't explore, just hard enough to make you wary.............exp loss, corpse retrieval, rezzes for a percentage of the loss (not too high). It's ok to make classes that can alleviate some of the penalty, but with time also being a punishment for "losing" that would still be acceptable to me.
This point is pretty big for me. I prefer a game world where I never feel too safe while I'm adventuring, and the risk of death will bring negative consequences. I like feeling like I need to be hyper-aware of my surroundings due to the dynamic danger around me, and that adds a whole new element of excitement to a game. ESO, for example, used scaled NPC's, and I never felt in danger so it ruined the game for me. There were quite a few things in ESO that were not my ideal preference, but the lack of danger due to level scaling single-handedly killed my desire to play that game. I want challenging NPC's that you can't kill 8-10 solo at a time. Either I have to solo 1 or 2 mobs in a dicey fight and worry I won't come out on top, or, better yet, I need to group up for a more cohesive and effective leveling and combat experience.
A few other of the top changes that left me orphaned in the current MMORPG landscape include:
The deflated value of gear - I don't want to replace all my gear with low tier drops as soon as an expansion is released. I prefer to stay away from loot pinata games. I want to remember the pieces of gear I was excited to obtain and worked hard to acquire.
Quest hubs - I prefer combat as a means of leveling and dislike the idea that the only efficient way to level is through running countless quests that I don't care about. I don't mind doing quests on occasion, but I hate the idea that if I don't grind the quest hubs then I'm going to miss out on gear and the best leveling path in the game.
Instancing - I use to love being in big cities and seeing all the higher levels and their top tier gear. Not to mention, I can remember back in the old days of EQ when I would meet people out in the world around my level, and we would group up and becomes friends. I've not had a game where that feels possible in probably 10+ years due to instancing pulling people out of the open world.
No real penalty for death - This is pretty straightforward, I want to have the feeling again where I get nervous if something goes a little sideways. The old days where our group would all scramble in desperation to not wipe, or only partially wipe, added texture to the world that is not around anywhere today.
I could go on, but for me, these are really at the top of my list. I'm hopeful that Pantheon will be the game that moves away from most of these more "modern" features, but it'll still be a while before we know.
In my world mmo's are in decline. I used to know so many people that played them and non of them do anymore. They all hate how mainstream they have become. Most of the people that play them today are jerks to others. The genre should have stayed niche like they were in the beginning. All those people i know now play single player rpg's or board games for the friendly social gathering. When i say board game i mean those rpg campaign games that last for hours or days.
I think a game should have a sufficient penalty that you try to avoid death best you can, but not a penalty so severe that you never take any risks at all.
In my understanding, EQ was more of the later kind.
Not at all. It was a perfect balance early on, imo. It was just enough to make you respect the world and not play flippantly. If you were smart and bound in a nearby city and played with someone who could revive you, the most you'd lost is a bit of time and experience. Time is valuable though, so it's a necessary punishment.
A real penalty is necessary if a game is to have any sense of mystery. Otherwise the player is able to explore haphazardly without having to worry about consequences.
I think a game should have a sufficient penalty that you try to avoid death best you can, but not a penalty so severe that you never take any risks at all.
In my understanding, EQ was more of the later kind.
Now, if you were in a 'hell level' (double xp needed to level), it hurt a little more when you died, but if you had a decent camp, the penalty could be maybe 10-15 minutes, and if you were solo and maybe not a good solo class longer. 30 minutes is probably the longest it ever took in the worst situations. Some people were so scared of the penalty, they would scream for someone to run to them and res them for longer than it would of took to get their xp back.
I personally felt EQ's system was good, Vanguard's was too little, if I remember right, people would 'ranger gate' aka die to shorten their run, not worried about the penalty. I think 10-15 minute xp penalty isn't too much. I played a good solo class in EQ (Necromancer), so I may have not been hurt by it as much, but in a group it was very easy to get that xp back.
I also would be fine with not losing a level, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings much if you could lose a level also.
Now, if you were in a 'hell level' (double xp needed to level), it hurt a little more when you died, but if you had a decent camp, the penalty could be maybe 10-15 minutes, and if you were solo and maybe not a good solo class longer. 30 minutes is probably the longest it ever took in the worst situations. Some people were so scared of the penalty, they would scream for someone to run to them and res them for longer than it would of took to get their xp back.
I personally felt EQ's system was good, Vanguard's was too little, if I remember right, people would 'ranger gate' aka die to shorten their run, not worried about the penalty. I think 10-15 minute xp penalty isn't too much. I played a good solo class in EQ (Necromancer), so I may have not been hurt by it as much, but in a group it was very easy to get that xp back.
I also would be fine with not losing a level, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings much if you could lose a level also.
I could totally get into not losing a level from dying. As one who is in favor of a stiff penalty for dying, I do think losing a level is unnecessary. The experience loss was usually not the worst thing about dying in EQ. If you died deep in a dungeon, often times it was the corpse recovery that sucked. I remember a couple of recoveries that amounted to an entire raid in and of themselves.
But I'll tell you one genuine positive of making death painful; it forced you to get creative on surviving life and death situations (at least it did me). Each class had its own talents and staying alive is what made you push those talents to the limit. And if you did manage to survive a near death experience, there was a certain amount of satisfaction from knowing you cheated death.
Now, if you were in a 'hell level' (double xp needed to level), it hurt a little more when you died, but if you had a decent camp, the penalty could be maybe 10-15 minutes, and if you were solo and maybe not a good solo class longer. 30 minutes is probably the longest it ever took in the worst situations. Some people were so scared of the penalty, they would scream for someone to run to them and res them for longer than it would of took to get their xp back.
I personally felt EQ's system was good, Vanguard's was too little, if I remember right, people would 'ranger gate' aka die to shorten their run, not worried about the penalty. I think 10-15 minute xp penalty isn't too much. I played a good solo class in EQ (Necromancer), so I may have not been hurt by it as much, but in a group it was very easy to get that xp back.
I also would be fine with not losing a level, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings much if you could lose a level also.
I could totally get into not losing a level from dying. As one who is in favor of a stiff penalty for dying, I do think losing a level is unnecessary. The experience loss was usually not the worst thing about dying in EQ. If you died deep in a dungeon, often times it was the corpse recovery that sucked. I remember a couple of recoveries that amounted to an entire raid in and of themselves.
But I'll tell you one genuine positive of making death painful; it forced you to get creative on surviving life and death situations (at least it did me). Each class had its own talents and staying alive is what made you push those talents to the limit. And if you did manage to survive a near death experience, there was a certain amount of satisfaction from knowing you cheated death.
I agree on the exp loss, it honestly was a shoulder shrugger. But as a person that played a Necro exclusively, I'll tell ya I was so happy when I first was able to cast the summon corpse spell. Which at the time, you have to run around East Karana? I think, anyway you have to farm a few nameds I think just to get it to drop of you didn't have the money. Spent hours looking for those mobs, no big markers my compass like they have these days, just a set of cords you guessed at or rough directions to go by. Killed a week of nameds just to get it to drop and I was so damn happy!
Any old EQ player will tell ya a week of farming a mob was commonplace. Hell, I spend 2 weeks just killing that god damn white rabbit in Eastern Wastes for the fucking hide, just to get a shawl for a quest line that no one could even see you had unless they inspected you. Anyway I ramble lol
These days if I had to spend 2 weeks hunting the only white rabbit in the entire zone that had a 0.0005% chance of dropping a white hide with no idea where the next rabbit would spawn I believe I would uninstall the game and rage quit lol my point is I think a certain amount of the bullshit we put up with back then is totally missing these days. It really did give you a sense of accomplishment, after I got that summon corpse spell, the big one that cost the expensive coffin to cast, I ran right to the nearest spire and made mad plat by charging players to summon their bodies haha. most classes had stuff like that in the early days. it was the little things with EQ that when taken as a whole was just awesome!
Games these days you level up, go to your trainer, grab all your spells that were all neatly laid out before you to buy or spend points on with no work what so ever on having to decide which ones you needed and which ones you could afford to put off getting for a bit. It's all given to you these days, everything from no death penalty to not having to manage your mana like you did in EQ. Sure I could kill some pretty nasty shit as a necro, but it was time management. I could kill that big red mob, then spend the next 30 minutes playing /gems till I got all my mana back, or I could kill light blues all day long and get a few levels and still worry about how large of an area I had to fear-kite with without agroing half the damn zone in the process and watching my clock as I count down the respawn timer.
WoW happened, but it only indirectly did the genre in. It was all the devs trying to copy WoW to replicate its success that ended up ruining the genre. Everything led to death of the MMO community, which imo was the lifeblood of the genre.
The games improved, the players did not...The community is what made EQ1 a great game.
That's overly simplistic. I agree with your conclusion, just not the premise. The games are what created the monsters that the community consists of today. These same people would not be playing old school EQ1. The second they figured out they could not be dicks because they actually needed others they would either have conformed or quit.
Comments
A few other of the top changes that left me orphaned in the current MMORPG landscape include:
The deflated value of gear - I don't want to replace all my gear with low tier drops as soon as an expansion is released. I prefer to stay away from loot pinata games. I want to remember the pieces of gear I was excited to obtain and worked hard to acquire.
Quest hubs - I prefer combat as a means of leveling and dislike the idea that the only efficient way to level is through running countless quests that I don't care about. I don't mind doing quests on occasion, but I hate the idea that if I don't grind the quest hubs then I'm going to miss out on gear and the best leveling path in the game.
Instancing - I use to love being in big cities and seeing all the higher levels and their top tier gear. Not to mention, I can remember back in the old days of EQ when I would meet people out in the world around my level, and we would group up and becomes friends. I've not had a game where that feels possible in probably 10+ years due to instancing pulling people out of the open world.
No real penalty for death - This is pretty straightforward, I want to have the feeling again where I get nervous if something goes a little sideways. The old days where our group would all scramble in desperation to not wipe, or only partially wipe, added texture to the world that is not around anywhere today.
I could go on, but for me, these are really at the top of my list. I'm hopeful that Pantheon will be the game that moves away from most of these more "modern" features, but it'll still be a while before we know.
A real penalty is necessary if a game is to have any sense of mystery. Otherwise the player is able to explore haphazardly without having to worry about consequences.
I personally felt EQ's system was good, Vanguard's was too little, if I remember right, people would 'ranger gate' aka die to shorten their run, not worried about the penalty. I think 10-15 minute xp penalty isn't too much. I played a good solo class in EQ (Necromancer), so I may have not been hurt by it as much, but in a group it was very easy to get that xp back.
I also would be fine with not losing a level, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings much if you could lose a level also.
I could totally get into not losing a level from dying. As one who is in favor of a stiff penalty for dying, I do think losing a level is unnecessary. The experience loss was usually not the worst thing about dying in EQ. If you died deep in a dungeon, often times it was the corpse recovery that sucked. I remember a couple of recoveries that amounted to an entire raid in and of themselves.
But I'll tell you one genuine positive of making death painful; it forced you to get creative on surviving life and death situations (at least it did me). Each class had its own talents and staying alive is what made you push those talents to the limit. And if you did manage to survive a near death experience, there was a certain amount of satisfaction from knowing you cheated death.
Any old EQ player will tell ya a week of farming a mob was commonplace. Hell, I spend 2 weeks just killing that god damn white rabbit in Eastern Wastes for the fucking hide, just to get a shawl for a quest line that no one could even see you had unless they inspected you. Anyway I ramble lol
These days if I had to spend 2 weeks hunting the only white rabbit in the entire zone that had a 0.0005% chance of dropping a white hide with no idea where the next rabbit would spawn I believe I would uninstall the game and rage quit lol my point is I think a certain amount of the bullshit we put up with back then is totally missing these days. It really did give you a sense of accomplishment, after I got that summon corpse spell, the big one that cost the expensive coffin to cast, I ran right to the nearest spire and made mad plat by charging players to summon their bodies haha. most classes had stuff like that in the early days. it was the little things with EQ that when taken as a whole was just awesome!
Games these days you level up, go to your trainer, grab all your spells that were all neatly laid out before you to buy or spend points on with no work what so ever on having to decide which ones you needed and which ones you could afford to put off getting for a bit. It's all given to you these days, everything from no death penalty to not having to manage your mana like you did in EQ. Sure I could kill some pretty nasty shit as a necro, but it was time management. I could kill that big red mob, then spend the next 30 minutes playing /gems till I got all my mana back, or I could kill light blues all day long and get a few levels and still worry about how large of an area I had to fear-kite with without agroing half the damn zone in the process and watching my clock as I count down the respawn timer.
God I really miss some of those things......
Yes, I think it was ruined...get over it.
That's overly simplistic. I agree with your conclusion, just not the premise. The games are what created the monsters that the community consists of today. These same people would not be playing old school EQ1. The second they figured out they could not be dicks because they actually needed others they would either have conformed or quit.