Pantheon is so far away, I think WOW will be shut down, taking a dirt nap before it is released.
With the new expansion and Classic coming that will refresh interest in Wow over the next 2-3 years ... you think Wow will be shut down? Also, clearly you must be fully knowledgeable of the design cycle of Pantheon to fully claim it won't possibly launch 2-3 years from now?
I get that the kiddies these days use extreme exaggeration to make points but your statement is deep within the territory of idiocy.
I plan to try both, but I doubt either will hold a large population for more than a couple months. The target market for pantheon is too small, especially given how fickle the hardcore mmo community is.
Wow classic's appeal is rooted in nostalgia. Most players will quIckly become bored with the game when they experience the two button rotations and extremely slow leveling relative to retail. End game was challenging 12 years ago when it was a legitimate surprise to find a player who didn't hold down s key and click everything.
I plan to try both, but I doubt either will hold a large population for more than a couple months. The target market for pantheon is too small, especially given how fickle the hardcore mmo community is.
Wow classic's appeal is rooted in nostalgia. Most players will quIckly become bored with the game when they experience the two button rotations and extremely slow leveling relative to retail. End game was challenging 12 years ago when it was a legitimate surprise to find a player who didn't hold down s key and click everything.
Ah the Nostalgia excuse ... the call of the ignorant.
The "end game" that keeps vanilla wow emulators alive today is pvp ... raiding is the gear grind required to pvp in a world not fully instanced off from one another. The vast majority of the emulator population exists on pvp servers and there is a reason for it. Older version of Wow had vastly superior pvp because the classes weren't actually built around rotations designed to keep billion hit point meat bag whackers happy. Rotations KILLED pvp fun and small group dynamics.
Raiding failed vanilla wow ... vanilla wow did not fail raiding because it was not designed for it. Retail Wow had to destroy nearly everything that made Classic classic in order to support it's new raid grind meta. Vanilla wow has it's own meta ... a very harsh one if you bothered to play it. Modern vanilla masters with fully hotkeyed abilities, understanding of the hybrid nature of pvp, macros and addons will humiliate new players in pvp. The learning curve of the true meta of vanilla wow will shock most players.
The game no doubt has it's flaws and everyone plays a snap shot of it because it is effectively a dead game when it comes to development. That is why Blizzard will have progression through the older expansions. Your tired argument of players becoming bored in raiding (with the fucking irony of MASS player drop off today months after expansion launches ... far larger that ANYTHING that existed in Classic era or what is seen on emulators) due to limited rotations is resolved by guaranteed content addition that dwarfs the scale of most or all modern Wow expansions.
History disproves your tired arguments. Modern proof disproves your false facts. The metrics are there to be seen as they are released from the very people who run today's emulators ... those very metrics given to Blizzard which drove their decision to make Classic. To witness someone who actually believes Blizzard would spend millions to remake Classic progression on something merely based on "nostalgia", and publicly express such opinion, is shocking.
I plan to try both, but I doubt either will hold a large population for more than a couple months. The target market for pantheon is too small, especially given how fickle the hardcore mmo community is.
Wow classic's appeal is rooted in nostalgia. Most players will quIckly become bored with the game when they experience the two button rotations and extremely slow leveling relative to retail. End game was challenging 12 years ago when it was a legitimate surprise to find a player who didn't hold down s key and click everything.
Ah the Nostalgia excuse ... the call of the ignorant.
The "end game" that keeps vanilla wow emulators alive today is pvp ... raiding is the gear grind required to pvp in a world not fully instanced off from one another. The vast majority of the emulator population exists on pvp servers and there is a reason for it. Older version of Wow had vastly superior pvp because the classes weren't actually built around rotations designed to keep billion hit point meat bag whackers happy. Rotations KILLED pvp fun and small group dynamics.
Raiding failed vanilla wow ... vanilla wow did not fail raiding because it was not designed for it. Retail Wow had to destroy nearly everything that made Classic classic in order to support it's new raid grind meta. Vanilla wow has it's own meta ... a very harsh one if you bothered to play it. Modern vanilla masters with fully hotkeyed abilities, understanding of the hybrid nature of pvp, macros and addons will humiliate new players in pvp. The learning curve of the true meta of vanilla wow will shock most players.
The game no doubt has it's flaws and everyone plays a snap shot of it because it is effectively a dead game when it comes to development. That is why Blizzard will have progression through the older expansions. Your tired argument of players becoming bored in raiding (with the fucking irony of MASS player drop off today months after expansion launches ... far larger that ANYTHING that existed in Classic era or what is seen on emulators) due to limited rotations is resolved by guaranteed content addition that dwarfs the scale of most or all modern Wow expansions.
History disproves your tired arguments. Modern proof disproves your false facts. The metrics are there to be seen as they are released from the very people who run today's emulators ... those very metrics given to Blizzard which drove their decision to make Classic. To witness someone who actually believes Blizzard would spend millions to remake Classic progression on something merely based on "nostalgia", and publicly express such opinion, is shocking.
PvE in retail is much more than randomly wacking a billion hp meatbag, but sure I'm ignorant. Rotations existed in vanilla wow, so I'm not sure how they supposedly destroyed pvp fun and small group dynamics. If anything small group pvp was emphasized when arenas were released in tbc.
I didn't even mention raiding so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Is this just a generic response to anyone who disagrees with you? I said the leveling would be boring for modern mmo players and the dps rotations were too simple. Are you actually debating that? For instance, do you actually think auto attack + the occasion heroic strike for 30 levels is engaging gameplay? Especially when you have to eat after every other pull. Are you going to tell me that it's the constant threat of dying that will make the leveling process fun? That having to be somewhat careful with aggro will counteract the 1 button rotation?
I'll also disagree about the vanilla meta being harsh. I think I have a decent grasp on what vanilla wow was. I grinded to warlord before giving up, I killed KT. I loved vanilla when I played, but I don't live in the past. The game has become more challenging.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
Also compelling to Blizzard is the possibility for harming competitor's business, especially against the other titles appealing to that nostalgia factor. If they can leverage player's feelings to their favor, I expect they will try. How much value Blizzard puts into this aspect is likely to ever be known at the highest management levels.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
Also compelling to Blizzard is the possibility for harming competitor's business, especially against the other titles appealing to that nostalgia factor. If they can leverage player's feelings to their favor, I expect they will try. How much value Blizzard puts into this aspect is likely to ever be known at the highest management levels.
Yeah I don't blame them at all, but Blizzard can be awfully scummy with their releases.
Honestly that nostalgia is working on me though. I know I won't enjoy classic, but I'm still kind of excited to relive that time I guess.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
The problem I and most people who enjoy older games have, is that you're disregarding reasoned player preference and relegating it feelings. We say we like slower more rewarding progression, you claim its "just nostalgia". We say we like less fast travel and more player interaction, you say rose colored glasses.
Basically you're just disregarding all evidence and reason and calling us liars. Just like with with discussions of preference for EQ and older games, nostalgia is a non-argument.
Pantheon is so far away, I think WOW will be shut down, taking a dirt nap before it is released.
With the new expansion and Classic coming that will refresh interest in Wow over the next 2-3 years ... you think Wow will be shut down? Also, clearly you must be fully knowledgeable of the design cycle of Pantheon to fully claim it won't possibly launch 2-3 years from now?
I get that the kiddies these days use extreme exaggeration to make points but your statement is deep within the territory of idiocy.
As this thread is about wow-classic, I think he meant wow classic would be closed by then. I agree.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I literally never heard it referred to as neverquest. Evercrack, yes, but not neverquest. Of course I was about 6 months late to WoW so maybe that was why.
Anyways, I would take "neverquest" over "fetch me 10 wolf canines, except magically only 1 out of every 5 wolves has canines that drop"
Neverquest was what my friends and I called it. I doubt if we were alone. My friends and I played for 5 or so years so we enjoyed the game. We just laughed that it was called Everquest when about 90% of the quests were not worth doing
still play it ( from release ) , never heard the term before this thread.
Fair enough - maybe this term wasn't as wide spread as I believed. We all used it so everyone must have used it, right?
I played EQ1 for like 4 years and never heard the term "neverquest" lol.
I started in 1999. I never heard it either. I did hear "evercrack" or maybe "evergrind". I'm not sure about the latter, but definitely the former.
I don't like the quest-hub thing either. I agree with the poster above who said quests railroad you too much. They might also be a probelm when finding groups since sometimes the quests don't mix. IN terms of camping mobs or killing mobs, Pantheon doesn't have to use the same sort of camp design. It could try to vary things so that players aren't staying in the same spot the whole time.
I do think vanilla WoW could pull some Pantheon players away. I do think Pantheon will try to compete with other MMO's. I hope they don't sacrifice the vision too much to appeal to broader audiences. Unfortunately that's normal. Every MMO in existence has dome some amount of that. It's part of the business.
they aren't competing for the same crowd. one is about reliving the pre WoW era and the other about reliving the start of WoW.
So it's against the rules to like both games? I'll use myself as an example since I can't speak for everyone else like some seem to be able to. I'm a gamer, I love to game. My favorite genre is MMO's. When Pantheon is out that will be my top priority, but I'll still want to play Classic Wow from time to time.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo. Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
they aren't competing for the same crowd. one is about reliving the pre WoW era and the other about reliving the start of WoW.
So it's against the rules to like both games? I'll use myself as an example since I can't speak for everyone else like some seem to be able to. I'm a gamer, I love to game. My favorite genre is MMO's. When Pantheon is out that will be my top priority, but I'll still want to play Classic Wow from time to time.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo. Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
yes. illegal even.. how on earth did you get that from what i wrote?
I played EQ1 for like 4 years and never heard the term "neverquest" lol.
From what I remember it is because that is what Wow players called it, not EQ players.
In any case, Pantheon is not trying to be Wow classis (even if I have no doubt it would earn a lot of cash if it could do that successfully, Wow classic clones didn't work 2005-2008 but today it just might). Pantheon is aiming for people that played MMOs 1996-2003, particularly but not exclusively EQ players. Initiating new players to that gamestyle would be nice of course but I ain't holding my breath for that one.
For me Pantheon is just words for now. Just like so many other projects, the result can be a very different experience hands on than the developer described it to you (or rather what you perceived their words to mean). My gut feeling is that Pantheon will not be in the same category as wow classic and therefore not attract the same crowd.. but you know, reality can kick in anytime and prove me wrong haha. But anyways, if it is possible they should not launch in the 2 month period after wow classic, but also eq progression server or even Camelot Unchained if that should happen in the same period.
they aren't competing for the same crowd. one is about reliving the pre WoW era and the other about reliving the start of WoW.
So it's against the rules to like both games? I'll use myself as an example since I can't speak for everyone else like some seem to be able to. I'm a gamer, I love to game. My favorite genre is MMO's. When Pantheon is out that will be my top priority, but I'll still want to play Classic Wow from time to time.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo. Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
yes. illegal even.. how on earth did you get that from what i wrote?
Why would they not be competing for wow classic players? I'm interested in both games and others have posted there desire to play wow classic as well. doesn't mean they need to adjust Pantheon to cater to wow players cause they won't.
they aren't competing for the same crowd. one is about reliving the pre WoW era and the other about reliving the start of WoW.
So it's against the rules to like both games? I'll use myself as an example since I can't speak for everyone else like some seem to be able to. I'm a gamer, I love to game. My favorite genre is MMO's. When Pantheon is out that will be my top priority, but I'll still want to play Classic Wow from time to time.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo. Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
yes. illegal even.. how on earth did you get that from what i wrote?
Why would they not be competing for wow classic players? I'm interested in both games and others have posted there desire to play wow classic as well. doesn't mean they need to adjust Pantheon to cater to wow players cause they won't.
The vast majority of vanilla Wow players I see in game are either old school Wow players who likely had little to no experience in older mmorpgs, and current gen mmo or even Wow players trying it out. There is only a tiny, itsy bitsy audience from EQ and virtually no talk in game about Pantheon. Vanilla Wow emulators are dominated by raiders and pvp players and not so much group based, difficult world pve players.
Once both Pantheon and Classic are officially released there may certainly be lots interest across the board but only because Pantheon is a new game and not an actual early gen mmorpg. End result is they are 2 dramatically different games with Pantheon putting strong emphasis on a narrow sub-genre market. Classic Wow when it was released in 2004 was the 'Next Gen' MMORPG of it's time targeting mass appeal and players who would likely never play EQ to begin with. Even by late vanilla, Wow had grabbed more players than all previous NA mmorpgs combined. Those players came from somewhere outside of early gen mmorpgs.
eh, I could see playing both. Honestly, I would love to do wow classic for a while... but if they dont update some stuff, or role a different direction (wow alternate expansion, cap still @ 60?) I could see only subbing for 1 year or so.
Pantheon will be a while new world to explore... and I feel there are no other games that have really done PVE and developed it well, with cool lore and unique things. Pantheon is actually designing it that way. That is why if I HAD to choose one, it will be Pantheon.
Isn't Pantheon targeting the Classic MMO audience? If so, then Classic WoW isn't in the same league as Pantheon. The community on this site, and for good reason, shunned WoW when it released in 2004. It completely dumbed down the genre, opened the flood gates for non-MMO gamers to influence the direction of the MMO genre, and here we are now over a decade later and we were right.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
I don't think most people shunned WoW early on. The purists like myself regretted some aspects of it like the linear nature and weak death penalty, but otherwise, it wasn't that different from EQ circa 2005.
WoW classic will be good for Pantheon if the time is right. It would undoubtedly take potential players if the two launched simultaneously, but should WoW classic come out at least a few months prior, it would increase demand for a more traditional mmo experience. Pantheon would become the most comparable offering.
I don't agree, because I don't think WoW was a traditional MMO experience. I think WoW was markedly different from the games that preceeded it and defined/initially grew the genre/MMO market (except, EQ2, which launched in the same general timeframe).
The only games that survived EQ and WoW were those that put an innovative spin on the genre...
WoW opened up the market to casuals, and made it possible for them to actually be end-gamers in an MMORPG. In EQ, being an end-game raider often meant raiding 4-6 days a week. WoW made it possible to do this with less time investment. It also considerably sped up the leveling timeline for new players, compared to older MMORPGs (before ez-mode patches/expansions).
WoW also introduced the concept of gear resets - or at least popularized it. It wasn't until WoW's popularity that you could actually expect literally all of your gear to become useless after a new expansion released. This was not the case in older games - even through level cap increases. It was fairly customary to still farm items from content 1-2 expansions back, sometimes even more, in EQ or DAoC.
I don't actually think the Death Penalty in EQ was that bad. The only thing that sucked was corpse rotting, but that became largely a non-issue for most people as the game populated and you had access to more Necros, SKs, Clerics, and Paladins. The bigger issue was running across zones from Binds (often in major cities) to where your corpse was... with no gear :-P
I think WoW classic is attractive to a different type of player than EQ was, and Pantheon will be attractive to the EQ type player. I don't think Pantheon will be a failure, but I think it's going to be working with in-built limitations since the players who really revered EQ (i.e. the players who weren't extremely fickle when it comes to that type of MMORPG) are all older Gen X or Early Millennial players, these days.
The two issues that I have with EQ-type games are:
1. I don't know if I have or care to schedule the amount of time needed to play them in a progressive manner... and
2. These games are very dependent on user base size, and the attitudes of the users who play it. If the players who play Pantheon are similar to the players who played EQ, then that will be very good for the game. If they are similar to the types of players who play games like WoW or Lineage II, that may not pan out as well, because it can turn those other players off. Its community is a large reason why EQ has been able to survive. It has always had some of the most dedicated players, and the attitudes of those players are like a snapshot in gamer history. Other newer games haven't had that, which is why the communities were so fickle and the games have been so susceptible to implosion (mass exodus soon after release, toxicity, etc.).
And to be honest, judging by the forums here (at least), I don't have much faith in this games prospective community. I will take a wait and see approach to that, though.
Given my life situation, I'm probably more prone to play another WoW-like game, even though I'd prefer an EQ-like game. Having to depend so deeply on other people can render the game unplayable for some, which is why they like the solo-friendliness of WoW and it's ilk. I hate it, but it's substantially better than sitting at the zone-in yelling "LFG!"
I agree that WoW wasn't a traditional MMO, even in the beginning. That is why I said a more traditional mmo. It did incorporate some of the things we liked about the genre early on, not the least of which was that it was harder in general, encouraged more grouping, and had far less accessibility options, even if it still had instancing (the worst of all). Even leveling took longer, and was much more troublesome alone (particularly with pvp) than it has become since. Some of the more egregious factors you point out were not part of classic WoW (no gear resets, few casual raiders).
Player types are not the dichotomy you describe. There are people who enjoy both. Those with an extreme like for one of the two may not find the other nearly as enjoyable, but few rejected it altogether. That level or like or dislike is also relative in that the design of wow classic was much closer to that of EQ than current WoW or other new mmorpgs.
Thus, classic WoW will once again popularize aspects of mmorpgs that have been cast aside. Many who play it will be looking for something else to scratch that itch once it's over. That can only be a good thing for Pantheon.
I don't agree with the bolded part, because I think the appeal of WoW was:
1. The Lore backing of WoW - Warcraft.
2. WoW kept the parts of MMORPGs that made them MMORPGs (which almost all MMORPGs have, BTW), but got rid of specific "normalities" that annoyed casual players.
WoW's success was opening up the genre to casual players - those players didn't like the inconveniences and traditional time sinks built into games like EQ. That is why games that copy those convenient aspects of WoW tend to succeed better than those that copy the inconvenient aspects of games like EQ.
FFXIV is a good example. They were able to relaunch their game and still keep the subscription model, while games like ESO had to completely revamp their business model and inch more towards Pay to Win and Pay for Convenience on top of a B2P model.
I plan to try both, but I doubt either will hold a large population for more than a couple months. The target market for pantheon is too small, especially given how fickle the hardcore mmo community is.
Wow classic's appeal is rooted in nostalgia. Most players will quIckly become bored with the game when they experience the two button rotations and extremely slow leveling relative to retail. End game was challenging 12 years ago when it was a legitimate surprise to find a player who didn't hold down s key and click everything.
Ah the Nostalgia excuse ... the call of the ignorant.
The "end game" that keeps vanilla wow emulators alive today is pvp ... raiding is the gear grind required to pvp in a world not fully instanced off from one another. The vast majority of the emulator population exists on pvp servers and there is a reason for it. Older version of Wow had vastly superior pvp because the classes weren't actually built around rotations designed to keep billion hit point meat bag whackers happy. Rotations KILLED pvp fun and small group dynamics.
Raiding failed vanilla wow ... vanilla wow did not fail raiding because it was not designed for it. Retail Wow had to destroy nearly everything that made Classic classic in order to support it's new raid grind meta. Vanilla wow has it's own meta ... a very harsh one if you bothered to play it. Modern vanilla masters with fully hotkeyed abilities, understanding of the hybrid nature of pvp, macros and addons will humiliate new players in pvp. The learning curve of the true meta of vanilla wow will shock most players.
The game no doubt has it's flaws and everyone plays a snap shot of it because it is effectively a dead game when it comes to development. That is why Blizzard will have progression through the older expansions. Your tired argument of players becoming bored in raiding (with the fucking irony of MASS player drop off today months after expansion launches ... far larger that ANYTHING that existed in Classic era or what is seen on emulators) due to limited rotations is resolved by guaranteed content addition that dwarfs the scale of most or all modern Wow expansions.
History disproves your tired arguments. Modern proof disproves your false facts. The metrics are there to be seen as they are released from the very people who run today's emulators ... those very metrics given to Blizzard which drove their decision to make Classic. To witness someone who actually believes Blizzard would spend millions to remake Classic progression on something merely based on "nostalgia", and publicly express such opinion, is shocking.
PvE in retail is much more than randomly wacking a billion hp meatbag, but sure I'm ignorant. Rotations existed in vanilla wow, so I'm not sure how they supposedly destroyed pvp fun and small group dynamics. If anything small group pvp was emphasized when arenas were released in tbc.
I didn't even mention raiding so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Is this just a generic response to anyone who disagrees with you? I said the leveling would be boring for modern mmo players and the dps rotations were too simple. Are you actually debating that? For instance, do you actually think auto attack + the occasion heroic strike for 30 levels is engaging gameplay? Especially when you have to eat after every other pull. Are you going to tell me that it's the constant threat of dying that will make the leveling process fun? That having to be somewhat careful with aggro will counteract the 1 button rotation?
I'll also disagree about the vanilla meta being harsh. I think I have a decent grasp on what vanilla wow was. I grinded to warlord before giving up, I killed KT. I loved vanilla when I played, but I don't live in the past. The game has become more challenging.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
WoW raids actually had mechanics, even in Vanilla. Not everything was Patchwerk. Even Vanilla EQ Raids had mechanics. Nagafen, Vox, Phinagel... All of those had mechanics.
I think the biggest issue in WoW is the proliferation of Raid Add-Ons. Those Add-Ons do make base-level raiding fairly trivial to the point that developers have to start designing around them. This is why they have Heroic and Mythic Raiding, with increasing numbers of mechanics - many of which will one shot a player - to challenge the cognitive load of the players.
The awful thing about this is that it makes it impossible to really enjoy the content when you're first encountering it. It makes raiding and dungeoneering feel like an eSport, or sorts.
Blizzard isn't banking on Nostalgia for WoW classic. They're silencing cries and getting revenue in a corner of the market where there seems to be demand. If people who left are willing to come back for WoW classic, then that's a win for Blizzard. Even if it's only 1,000 players, that's >>>> 0 players. This is also much better than having them play on Private Servers.
If they can get those players on Classic, there is still a much higher chance they can upsell them to the "normal" retail experience - which includes selling Expansion Packs, XP Boosts, etc. to those players who otherwise wouldn't be buying or subscribing to anything Blizzard has on offer (at least in terms of World of Warcraft).
They're doing the same thing with StarCraft, for example.
they aren't competing for the same crowd. one is about reliving the pre WoW era and the other about reliving the start of WoW.
So it's against the rules to like both games? I'll use myself as an example since I can't speak for everyone else like some seem to be able to. I'm a gamer, I love to game. My favorite genre is MMO's. When Pantheon is out that will be my top priority, but I'll still want to play Classic Wow from time to time.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo. Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
yes. illegal even.. how on earth did you get that from what i wrote?
Why would they not be competing for wow classic players? I'm interested in both games and others have posted there desire to play wow classic as well. doesn't mean they need to adjust Pantheon to cater to wow players cause they won't.
Because by the time Pantheon finally releases vanilla wow will be over and done, most likely.
Comments
You stay sassy!
I get that the kiddies these days use extreme exaggeration to make points but your statement is deep within the territory of idiocy.
You stay sassy!
Wow classic's appeal is rooted in nostalgia. Most players will quIckly become bored with the game when they experience the two button rotations and extremely slow leveling relative to retail. End game was challenging 12 years ago when it was a legitimate surprise to find a player who didn't hold down s key and click everything.
The "end game" that keeps vanilla wow emulators alive today is pvp ... raiding is the gear grind required to pvp in a world not fully instanced off from one another. The vast majority of the emulator population exists on pvp servers and there is a reason for it. Older version of Wow had vastly superior pvp because the classes weren't actually built around rotations designed to keep billion hit point meat bag whackers happy. Rotations KILLED pvp fun and small group dynamics.
Raiding failed vanilla wow ... vanilla wow did not fail raiding because it was not designed for it. Retail Wow had to destroy nearly everything that made Classic classic in order to support it's new raid grind meta. Vanilla wow has it's own meta ... a very harsh one if you bothered to play it. Modern vanilla masters with fully hotkeyed abilities, understanding of the hybrid nature of pvp, macros and addons will humiliate new players in pvp. The learning curve of the true meta of vanilla wow will shock most players.
The game no doubt has it's flaws and everyone plays a snap shot of it because it is effectively a dead game when it comes to development. That is why Blizzard will have progression through the older expansions. Your tired argument of players becoming bored in raiding (with the fucking irony of MASS player drop off today months after expansion launches ... far larger that ANYTHING that existed in Classic era or what is seen on emulators) due to limited rotations is resolved by guaranteed content addition that dwarfs the scale of most or all modern Wow expansions.
History disproves your tired arguments. Modern proof disproves your false facts. The metrics are there to be seen as they are released from the very people who run today's emulators ... those very metrics given to Blizzard which drove their decision to make Classic. To witness someone who actually believes Blizzard would spend millions to remake Classic progression on something merely based on "nostalgia", and publicly express such opinion, is shocking.
You stay sassy!
PvE in retail is much more than randomly wacking a billion hp meatbag, but sure I'm ignorant. Rotations existed in vanilla wow, so I'm not sure how they supposedly destroyed pvp fun and small group dynamics. If anything small group pvp was emphasized when arenas were released in tbc.
I didn't even mention raiding so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Is this just a generic response to anyone who disagrees with you? I said the leveling would be boring for modern mmo players and the dps rotations were too simple. Are you actually debating that? For instance, do you actually think auto attack + the occasion heroic strike for 30 levels is engaging gameplay? Especially when you have to eat after every other pull. Are you going to tell me that it's the constant threat of dying that will make the leveling process fun? That having to be somewhat careful with aggro will counteract the 1 button rotation?
I'll also disagree about the vanilla meta being harsh. I think I have a decent grasp on what vanilla wow was. I grinded to warlord before giving up, I killed KT. I loved vanilla when I played, but I don't live in the past. The game has become more challenging.
And yes, I do think Blizzard is banking on nostalgia for WoW classic. It's not a huge investment and it's guaranteed to bring in a massive amount of players initially. The majority of those will quickly leave and eventually the population will dwindle. That said the classic wow community is large and will easily keep the game relevant/profitable. I'm not debating that, I'm well aware that there are many people who legitimately enjoy classic.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Honestly that nostalgia is working on me though. I know I won't enjoy classic, but I'm still kind of excited to relive that time I guess.
Basically you're just disregarding all evidence and reason and calling us liars. Just like with with discussions of preference for EQ and older games, nostalgia is a non-argument.
I don't like the quest-hub thing either. I agree with the poster above who said quests railroad you too much. They might also be a probelm when finding groups since sometimes the quests don't mix. IN terms of camping mobs or killing mobs, Pantheon doesn't have to use the same sort of camp design. It could try to vary things so that players aren't staying in the same spot the whole time.
I do think vanilla WoW could pull some Pantheon players away. I do think Pantheon will try to compete with other MMO's. I hope they don't sacrifice the vision too much to appeal to broader audiences. Unfortunately that's normal. Every MMO in existence has dome some amount of that. It's part of the business.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
I'm sure there will be more then a few who intend on playing Pantheon long term but end up changing,weather it's wow classic or another mmo.
Then there's all sorts of situations that can pull a player who does play both games to sway to one side. Weather it be patience of progression, age of player, guild, just to name a few.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
In any case, Pantheon is not trying to be Wow classis (even if I have no doubt it would earn a lot of cash if it could do that successfully, Wow classic clones didn't work 2005-2008 but today it just might). Pantheon is aiming for people that played MMOs 1996-2003, particularly but not exclusively EQ players. Initiating new players to that gamestyle would be nice of course but I ain't holding my breath for that one.
My gut feeling is that Pantheon will not be in the same category as wow classic and therefore not attract the same crowd.. but you know, reality can kick in anytime and prove me wrong haha.
But anyways, if it is possible they should not launch in the 2 month period after wow classic, but also eq progression server or even Camelot Unchained if that should happen in the same period.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Once both Pantheon and Classic are officially released there may certainly be lots interest across the board but only because Pantheon is a new game and not an actual early gen mmorpg. End result is they are 2 dramatically different games with Pantheon putting strong emphasis on a narrow sub-genre market. Classic Wow when it was released in 2004 was the 'Next Gen' MMORPG of it's time targeting mass appeal and players who would likely never play EQ to begin with. Even by late vanilla, Wow had grabbed more players than all previous NA mmorpgs combined. Those players came from somewhere outside of early gen mmorpgs.
You stay sassy!
You stay sassy!
If both of them are going to be compared then that will be the deciding factor for who dies and who lives.
Pantheon will be a while new world to explore... and I feel there are no other games that have really done PVE and developed it well, with cool lore and unique things. Pantheon is actually designing it that way. That is why if I HAD to choose one, it will be Pantheon.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
1. The Lore backing of WoW - Warcraft.
2. WoW kept the parts of MMORPGs that made them MMORPGs (which almost all MMORPGs have, BTW), but got rid of specific "normalities" that annoyed casual players.
WoW's success was opening up the genre to casual players - those players didn't like the inconveniences and traditional time sinks built into games like EQ. That is why games that copy those convenient aspects of WoW tend to succeed better than those that copy the inconvenient aspects of games like EQ.
FFXIV is a good example. They were able to relaunch their game and still keep the subscription model, while games like ESO had to completely revamp their business model and inch more towards Pay to Win and Pay for Convenience on top of a B2P model.
WoW raids actually had mechanics, even in Vanilla. Not everything was Patchwerk. Even Vanilla EQ Raids had mechanics. Nagafen, Vox, Phinagel... All of those had mechanics.
I think the biggest issue in WoW is the proliferation of Raid Add-Ons. Those Add-Ons do make base-level raiding fairly trivial to the point that developers have to start designing around them. This is why they have Heroic and Mythic Raiding, with increasing numbers of mechanics - many of which will one shot a player - to challenge the cognitive load of the players.
The awful thing about this is that it makes it impossible to really enjoy the content when you're first encountering it. It makes raiding and dungeoneering feel like an eSport, or sorts.
Blizzard isn't banking on Nostalgia for WoW classic. They're silencing cries and getting revenue in a corner of the market where there seems to be demand. If people who left are willing to come back for WoW classic, then that's a win for Blizzard. Even if it's only 1,000 players, that's >>>> 0 players. This is also much better than having them play on Private Servers.
If they can get those players on Classic, there is still a much higher chance they can upsell them to the "normal" retail experience - which includes selling Expansion Packs, XP Boosts, etc. to those players who otherwise wouldn't be buying or subscribing to anything Blizzard has on offer (at least in terms of World of Warcraft).
They're doing the same thing with StarCraft, for example.